The recent Channelock thread got me reminiscing. Lots of threads for lots of different types of pliers. But why no love for fencing pliers? Any examples out there? Wish I had one of the Channelocks we had growing up. Very useful. Kept one of them and a handful of used staples on the tractors to do emergency repairs to barbed wire fences back in the days of old.
Fencing Pliers, Windmill Tools and Cavemen
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Cleave
Well-known member
I keep one handy in each vehicle for multipurpose utility.
Ricky Joe
Well-known member
No toolbox is complete without them. I may have a channel lock pair if you want them.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
While handy because its just one thing to carry, they are a half assed solution compared to dedicated tools for all three operations. Sort of hard to love caveman type tools.
micromind
Well-known member
The most useful tool I've ever owned for mending fence. And other stuff too......
I'm curious to what three operations you think fence pliers are limited to? And what three dedicated tools you fit in your pocket to do these?
lg
no neat sig line
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Hammer, wire shear, and staple puller, and I should have prefaced that its 3 functions for high tensile fence as opposed to other types of fencing that I don't usually repair or build.
As for three dedicated tools that will fit in my pocket, well that is why I stated "While handy because its just one thing to carry". I always have a pair in all my tractors small tool box.
I never stated that I could carry three dedicated tools in my pocket? But I can on my 4 wheeler, in the saddle bags on the horse, or in a bucket in my hand as I always need top caps and insulators anyways. If I am doing a fence check I have a compound cutter, a claw hammer, a ferrule crimper, and wire wrap tool.
Dave455
Well-known member
Popular tool here in the U.K. Don’t think there’s a farmer without a pair in his 4WD or pickup.
Lot of older Elliott Lucas examples around. Of the new ones, Orbis seem to be most common - they’re usually found at the agricultural suppliers.
For those not used to these designs, you can hammer the point underneath a staple to start it moving, then grab it with the centre pincers and roll the tool back to pull it out.
You can twist barbed wire, cut it, grab it with the lower teeth and tension it by levering against the head, and even hammer in staples!
Lot of older Elliott Lucas examples around. Of the new ones, Orbis seem to be most common - they’re usually found at the agricultural suppliers.
For those not used to these designs, you can hammer the point underneath a staple to start it moving, then grab it with the centre pincers and roll the tool back to pull it out.
You can twist barbed wire, cut it, grab it with the lower teeth and tension it by levering against the head, and even hammer in staples!
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I wouldn't say there's no appreciation. While they have never spawned their own thread, by type, before, they do get posted, usually in the brand threads (Crescent, Kraeuter, Utica, Red Devil, etc).
Can't believe it took 8 posts for a photo!I'll go vintage with a magnificent tool to match yours if only to demonstrate how enduring the design was...
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Private Lugnutz
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I hear you, but I think what @larry_g is getting at is that you are making a false comparison. Even if - and I'm not sure it's true with some of the more robust models, but hypothetically, even if each of the functions is slightly less quality than the same function on a dedicated single-function tool, it would require at least three of them. The reduction in size and weight in their combination in one tool with a single pair of handles is not considered a diminishment (or half-assing...) if greater portability is a high priority; it's a necessary advantage. If you're running your fenceline with a quad and a toolbag, maybe a different story.
Not to tangent the thread, but an even better example are "windmill tools". If you don't want to be toting a toolbag on a fence line on the back forty, you definitely don't want to be toting one up a rickety ladder, or climbing down and up because you forgot something. I appreciate the efficiency. The idea can get gimmicky fast, too, of course. But I have a funny bone for multi-function tools.
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Also used as a wire stretcher for barbed wire fences.
And as a wire twister when joining wires.
Farmer J.
Well-known member
They're ugly things, but if you have to walk miles around hills and small fields to check the stock they're the best thing to have in your pocket.
I keep a small stash of old fence staples and off cuts of wire at strategic places around the farm, tucked in to holes where the stock can't get to them then only need to carry the pliers to make a quick tempary repair if a tree falls on a fence.
Apart from that, even whilst in the workshop surrounded by the 'proper' tools it's surprising how often i grab the fence pliers just to cut wire or bend some piece of metal! They have nice long handles and plenty of leverage.
I keep a small stash of old fence staples and off cuts of wire at strategic places around the farm, tucked in to holes where the stock can't get to them then only need to carry the pliers to make a quick tempary repair if a tree falls on a fence.
Apart from that, even whilst in the workshop surrounded by the 'proper' tools it's surprising how often i grab the fence pliers just to cut wire or bend some piece of metal! They have nice long handles and plenty of leverage.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I find almost all multifunction tools **** when it comes to function, nothing I hate more than a Leatherman.
Slightly less quality????
Fencing pliers are a terrible hammer, beyond maddening with a hedge post. Swing an estwing and then a pair of fencing pliers, there is 40 leagues between the two.
Fencing pliers will cut #9 wire and even high tensile, but it makes your hands hurt terribly. Compound cutters dont make me lie awake at night and question my choice for using them with pain in my palms
Fencing pliers do a terrible job wrapping high tensile which leads to ends that will catch and cut or blind the animal. I won't do this job with fencing pliers. The vet bills and a blind horse is not slight. The proper tool is tiny and actually will fit in your pocket.
Fencing pliers actually are a pretty good staple puller, but its rare I have to pull one, most of the time its pound one in when deer hit the fence
I don't know how one doesn't see as it as a diminishment? Even if I have them on me, if a deer has made much of a mess I will go back to the barn and get the proper tools.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
If you find the tradeoff that bad, there's no sense in arguing with you. Especially on the vintage board, where we wax mainly poetically with nostalgia!
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Fencings is hard brutal work, cutting post, digging holes or even pounding post with brute force into the ground, tamping post, stretching wire and wrapping it.
Sorry it gives you offense.
Sorry that wasn't meant to go live as I was not finished with the reply.
In your one post you said Sort of hard to love caveman type tools Then you go to say that you do this from horse back. Horses went out a long time ago.
I also have them in most rigs but I work on a lot of woven wire fence, over a mile.
I do agree that;
I've been on this farm for for 70 years, built, moved, and repaired a lot of fence. Dad never allowed horses on this farm so you and I approach some things differently. I do agree that multitools are inferior to dedicated tools and hate leatherman tools. When your 20 minutes from the shop and fencing tools then the fencing plier comes in real handy. Especially when an animal is wrapped up in wire and time is of the essence. On this farm, as yours, they have a place.
lg
no neat sig line
Ricky Joe
Well-known member
I don’t know that I’ve ever used them for fencing; perhaps as a child. Last time I used them was pulling staples out of carpet strips when I removed the carpet. They are great for opening bags of grout or cement. Pulling very close nails, or tucking them in, or cutting wires or cables when they are in the way, twisting rebar ties together, probably ten or twenty things I don’t remember now, but I have several pairs, and when I need them, I’m always glad I have them.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Horses, or I should say good horses can be very complementary to a tractor. Some jobs wonderful in fact if the horse is voice trained. Years ago a neighbor was pulling a fence line. He wanted me help with my loader tractor.
He was sort of disappointed that I showed up with my Belgian mare, a log chinch chain and a 2’ piece of 2x6. But he didn’t realize how much time it took to get on and off the tractor to hook up and unhook the chain.
With the horse I could hook the chain and pop the 2x6 under the chain and cluck, and it’s popped out of the hole. 30 seconds a post
He started just driving along for me to throw the post in the bucket.
retDAC
Well-known member
FWIW, squeezing/wrapping those clips to attach fence wire to T posts is far better done with 410 Channellocks.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
The lightning rod like effect of this completely subjective argument, with all kinds of situational dependencies, unusual for the Vintage board, but typical for other boards here on GJ, helped me understand why I was so flummoxed by all the references to a Channellock fencing tool, having no recollection of seeing an example before. So I re-checked the Champion DeArment thread. Nope. No fencing pliers. That's when I realized you all must be talking about modern Channellocks and the modern Channellock thread up on the General board.
So I got curious.
Champion DeArment never made a fencing tool branded Channellock or anything else. As far as I can tell from public research. No fencing tool appears in any Champion DeArment catalog through 1956. They changed their name in '63, and the earliest Channellock catalog available on IA/ITCL is 1967, which does indeed include one. So, the old Champion DeArment company with the new name taken from their most popular brand added it to their production lineup sometime between 1963 and 1967. It only makes sense that they would copy the most popular design and the design that everyone associates with the name fencing pliers or fencing tool.
But there were other designs. The early (1890's to 1920's) fencing tools made by Cronk, Kraeuter, Smith & Hemenway (RedDevil), and Utica do not look like the modern Orbis or the vintage Crescent posted above. They have the Button's pattern cutters in the pivot, and pry/puller openings in the heavy jaws, and one face of the jaw will typically have a knurled area for tap hammering. But they did not have the characteristic horn. Hopefully collectors with other models will post some of them. Until then, here is a link to a 'Fencing' search list on AA.
That made me wonder when the horn was first added and by whom? Whoever and whenever, it became the standard.
So I got curious.
Champion DeArment never made a fencing tool branded Channellock or anything else. As far as I can tell from public research. No fencing tool appears in any Champion DeArment catalog through 1956. They changed their name in '63, and the earliest Channellock catalog available on IA/ITCL is 1967, which does indeed include one. So, the old Champion DeArment company with the new name taken from their most popular brand added it to their production lineup sometime between 1963 and 1967. It only makes sense that they would copy the most popular design and the design that everyone associates with the name fencing pliers or fencing tool.
But there were other designs. The early (1890's to 1920's) fencing tools made by Cronk, Kraeuter, Smith & Hemenway (RedDevil), and Utica do not look like the modern Orbis or the vintage Crescent posted above. They have the Button's pattern cutters in the pivot, and pry/puller openings in the heavy jaws, and one face of the jaw will typically have a knurled area for tap hammering. But they did not have the characteristic horn. Hopefully collectors with other models will post some of them. Until then, here is a link to a 'Fencing' search list on AA.
That made me wonder when the horn was first added and by whom? Whoever and whenever, it became the standard.
Don’t forget the money factor. Why pay for multiple tools on each tractor when one would do?
I am not the only one who remembers reusing fencing staples. This is not because farmers were environmentalists. It is because small farmers tended to be tighter than a cold tick on a warm dog.
Here are my users. Early 2000's channel locks and an old Cresent. I have a farm and these have been used many times building and repairing fence. I bring my hammer because they are not great for hammering. The Cresent has more mass so it works better as a hammer.
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Firebrick43
Well-known member
I know, my father and grandfather were chicken farmers, cheap cheap cheap the chickens said.
That doesn't make them any better tools from the standpoint of using them, it just means one is more tolerant of compromises in performance. One could use a rock for several of the task and you wouldn't have to carry that around here, just bend over and pick it up, free to boot. But rocks are even worse tools.
And by my age, my father and grandfather suffered terribly with carpal tunnels syndrome. Undoubtable some of the damage was caused by the pliers. I have made it a point to have tools that I don't tear up my body with, and wear hearing protection so I am not deaf like they are/were. I can buy a lot of nice tools with the price my dad paid for surgery in both hands and the time he couldn't do anything after surgery
I was 24 or so on my own place and my dad saw my compound wire cutters. You could see the frown of displeasure as he handled them so before he got a word in I handed him a the roll of high tensile and had him cut a piece off the end. They didn't hurt his hands nor caused further pain. He just muttered umpppth. A while later on thanks giving we were riding his golf cart down his fence line and he had purchased a set.
Aaron_W
Well-known member
I have used these for years as a pocket firefighting tool. Handy one tool breaking, mashing, poking, hooking, pulling, cutting, grabbing solution for many small problems encountered on calls. It can't do everything, but has often let me do what I need without sending someone back to the engine for the tool box or other tools.
I've almost never actually used them on a fence...
WINDMILL PLIERS? Never heard of them, but I love the idea of multi tools, even if not always great tools. Those are awesome with a very Rube Goldberg aspect to them.
I've almost never actually used them on a fence...
WINDMILL PLIERS? Never heard of them, but I love the idea of multi tools, even if not always great tools. Those are awesome with a very Rube Goldberg aspect to them.
Or poor. There just wasn’t a lot of cash in small subsistence farming in the 1960s and 70s.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Grandpa was making money in the 60’s and 70’s. Said it was his best years. He always had nice tractors, a nice truck and an 4 year old or less olds 88.
Every thing else was just cheap. He even put up mobile home wall board in a mud room and bathroom addition in 77 because he could see spending so much on drywall????
He was was smart to see the 80’a farm crisis looming and fully stopped grain farming in 84’ and rent his ground from then on. He kept the cows and some tractors for chores.
My father will still sometimes trip over 100$ bills to save a dime. It’s a mentality that wasn’t made in any reality. My dad will even admit it at times.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Not to mention replacements!
I live in an 1893 Victorian on a 1/2-acre lot in a historic district and the only fence mending I do these days is replacing dang pickets, spraying them with limeaway and a powerwasher, or whitewashing them (like Tom Sawyer!) every few years.
But I grew up in the sticks and just the thought of losing a good tack puller, a good hammer, and a good wire cutter doing fence work makes my *** sore from the whooping I would get. Funny thing is, my brothers and I used Kraeuter "trench pliers" from WWI with a big "U.S." martial marking on them, considered collectible, and rightfully so, today.Fence pliers evolved from other pliers for working with wire and pulling nails, tacks, brads, and staples. I have a lot of the ancestors. When I get them organized, with your assent, I will post as a sort of pre-history context for what I still hope will be some examples other than the Crescent type with the horn and its modern successors (Channellock, Orbis, etc). If anyone has them, I am thinking @leg17 or @HeelSpur, so I will tag them.
Agreed. We are probably closer than apart on this subject, if one concedes that it's all dependent on priorities. If your outer perimeter fencing is as significant as your roof, an Estwing makes sense, for example. For others, a fencing tool is good enough.
Wow. You should post that on the Bonney thread. I think the only time I have ever seen that tool was a patent illustration, and it wasn't theirs. Do you know the patent number? If not, I am pretty sure I remember seeing it somewhere in this list of seventy-one (71) fence tool patents on DATAMP, which is pretty easy and fun to browse through.
It is a serious tool.
Thanks. One of my favorite flea market finds from that year. If you follow the link I provided some history and some other references from period trade mags.
Yes. My father was born in 1925. If you were an Iowa farmer the depression did not really end until WW2 started so he grew up in the thick of it.
My mom grew up on a dry land farm in the middle of Nowhere, Montana. Even when it rained it was a tough existence. It didn’t rain much in the 1930s. Her dad lost the place in the Depression.
So both mom and dad were frugal.
Great response, thanks. I am wondering about the hatchet’s use. Maybe split rail fences? Growing up the bane of my fencing existence was replacing “natural” posts (tree branches or small trunks) that had rotted off with treated wooden round posts. The treatment (maybe creosote?) would burn you when you scraped your forearm on it. Nasty stuff.Not to mention replacements!
I live in an 1893 Victorian on a 1/2-acre lot in a historic district and the only fence mending I do these days is replacing dang pickets, spraying them with limeaway and a powerwasher, or whitewashing them (like Tom Sawyer!) every few years.
Fence pliers evolved from other pliers for working with wire and pulling nails, tacks, brads, and staples. I have a lot of the ancestors. When I get them organized, with your assent, I will post as a sort of pre-history context for what I still hope will be some examples other than the Crescent type with the horn and its modern successors (Channellock, Orbis, etc). If anyone has them, I am thinking @leg17 or @HeelSpur, so I will tag them.
Agreed. We are probably closer than apart on this subject, if one concedes that it's all dependent on priorities. If your outer perimeter fencing is as significant as your roof, an Estwing makes sense, for example. For others, a fencing tool is good enough.
Wow. You should post that on the Bonney thread. I think the only time I have ever seen that tool was a patent illustration, and it wasn't theirs. Do you know the patent number? If not, I am pretty sure I remember seeing it somewhere in this list of seventy-one (71) fence tool patents on DATAMP, which is pretty easy and fun to browse through.
It is a serious tool.
Thanks. One of my favorite flea market finds from that year. If you follow the link I provided some history and some other references from period trade mags.
Much easier to pound in steel posts but dad insisted upon alternating steel with wood. He didn’t think the steel posts would let you pull the wire tight enough. Corners had to be two wooden posts with another wooden post as a diagonal wooden brace between them
I know a guy who still has a concrete mold that was used on his farm to make concrete fence posts. That had to be a heavy job.
I posted the Bonney pliers on the Bonney thread. No patent date on them that I see. Maybe the hatchet is for clearing a branch that might be in the way. Very light use I would think. This one is nowhere close to being sharp so I don't think the owner found it useful enough to sharpen.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I could be wrong, but it sure looks like a spittin' image for this! Note that DATAMP considers it "Not known to have been produced," simply because they have no examples. The nice/rightcool thing to do would be to contact a steward. They will, eventually, amend that, allude to Bonney in some way (they may not be the OEM) and include photos of your "Bonney Tomahawk" branded example, crediting you.
Here's another example from the "sold items" filter. L. Ryman "Ranchman". I wonder who the OEM is.I could be wrong, but it sure looks like a spittin' image for this! Note that DATAMP considers it "Not known to have been produced," simply because they have no examples. The nice/rightcool thing to do would be to contact a steward. They will, eventually, amend that, allude to Bonney in some way (they may not be the OEM) and include photos of your "Bonney Tomahawk" branded example, crediting you.
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Mike'smeatshop
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Farmer J.
Well-known member
Mine are same as those blue handled ones, thanks, saved me taking a picture of mine!
I find the same for hammering, the pliers heavy enough to drive one or two staples for a quick repair but when doing a larger job it's better to take a proper hammer.
Ricky Joe
Well-known member
four.cycle
Well-known member
@ararat - RE: "Ranchman" multi-tool:
National / National Hatchet Co., Marshalltown, IA / "Ranchman" multi-tool / patent 607448 Jul 19 1898 & 784959 Mar 14 1905 John R. Morris /
Ryman / K.L. Ryman, Newark, NJ / "Ranchman" multi-tool / see also Streiby & Foote /
Strieby & Foote / Strieby & Foote, 301 Ogden, Newark, NJ / wire fence stretcher, "Totem" pipe wrench / patent 769879 Sep 13 1904 Newton J. Tate & 868954 Oct 22 1907 William H. Whittemore/ see also Coulter Tool Co., see also Ryman, K.L. / https://papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=14033.msg86627#msg86627 /
(the connection on the third one is Mr. Ryman, who was apparently quite an operator.)
I have no clue how Bonney fits into this picture.
Gerald ("progress is fine") has been talking about setting up a page devoted strictly to "multi-tools" - it's been an on-going running joke between us now for several years - but I don't know if he's got any documentation on your Bonney find.
I do know that these gizmos proliferated late in the 19th and early in the 20th century, and some companies were still trying to "improve" on the "original" designs up until the recent past.
BK
National / National Hatchet Co., Marshalltown, IA / "Ranchman" multi-tool / patent 607448 Jul 19 1898 & 784959 Mar 14 1905 John R. Morris /
Ryman / K.L. Ryman, Newark, NJ / "Ranchman" multi-tool / see also Streiby & Foote /
Strieby & Foote / Strieby & Foote, 301 Ogden, Newark, NJ / wire fence stretcher, "Totem" pipe wrench / patent 769879 Sep 13 1904 Newton J. Tate & 868954 Oct 22 1907 William H. Whittemore/ see also Coulter Tool Co., see also Ryman, K.L. / https://papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=14033.msg86627#msg86627 /
(the connection on the third one is Mr. Ryman, who was apparently quite an operator.)
I have no clue how Bonney fits into this picture.
Gerald ("progress is fine") has been talking about setting up a page devoted strictly to "multi-tools" - it's been an on-going running joke between us now for several years - but I don't know if he's got any documentation on your Bonney find.
I do know that these gizmos proliferated late in the 19th and early in the 20th century, and some companies were still trying to "improve" on the "original" designs up until the recent past.
BK
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four.cycle
Well-known member
back to the subject at hand here...
Here are two pairs of TAT (Thorsen Allied Tools) made in Japan fencing pliers. Same company. Same part number.
If you ever had any questions about the consistency of TAT's "quality control", here's your answer:
TAT (Thorsen Allied Tools - Japan) fencing pliers
TAT (Thorsen Allied Tools - Japan) fencing pliers
.... as an aside, a couple months ago I found a pair of these laying in the middle of Orchard Street between 40th & 56th. I stopped and picked them up, brought them home, stripped the shredded rubber handles off, cleaned them up, and gave them to my buddy, who of course asked "What the hell am I supposed to do with these? I don't have any cows," to which I responded "See? You can use it for a hammer!"
Here are two pairs of TAT (Thorsen Allied Tools) made in Japan fencing pliers. Same company. Same part number.
If you ever had any questions about the consistency of TAT's "quality control", here's your answer:
TAT (Thorsen Allied Tools - Japan) fencing pliers
TAT (Thorsen Allied Tools - Japan) fencing pliers
.... as an aside, a couple months ago I found a pair of these laying in the middle of Orchard Street between 40th & 56th. I stopped and picked them up, brought them home, stripped the shredded rubber handles off, cleaned them up, and gave them to my buddy, who of course asked "What the hell am I supposed to do with these? I don't have any cows," to which I responded "See? You can use it for a hammer!"
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Nice!
I would suspect 3rd party OEM same as the "Ranchman". I will look into deeper tomorrow.
It's preposterous that McLeod was granted a patent in 1904, just six years after the 1898 Morris, for what looks on cursory examination like an indistinguishable design. I guess you don't need to contact DATAMP after all, @ararat. Oddly, DATAMP doesn't have the Morris in their fencing tool category. Just multi. That's how I missed it.
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