Issue with variance - damage to driveway from construction vehicles?

[rayra]

A fully laden concrete truck can be over 50,000 pounds.
No way your decrepit composite road surface will handle that, your neighbor is correct to be concerned / protest.
You are going to need to come up with a plan to replace the roadway, possible a split cost with your neighbor that shares that driveway.

 

[Firebrick43]

I got a rough estimate of $1500 to line pump 2 trucks of concrete (20 yards) up to 550 feet. This would be a lot less than eating 50% of re-pave on a 400 foot driveway (vs. 33.3 %). A full load for a 10 yard concrete truck is approx. 70,000 lbs but that's spread over several tires.
As far as ownership, the deed simply says "said premises are coveyed together with a 20 foot right of way leading in a westerly direction to ABCDEF road" (the nearest public road). I imagine it says something like that on the neighbor's deeds. I guess it won't hurt to take a bunch of photos and videos so I have a 'before construction' condition documented of the driveway. Fixing it could be nothing more than a few bags of cold patch too....

was that quote from a pumping companies or your concrete guys? I would quote another place.

A few years ago I paid 650$ for over 30 yards to be pumped with a boom truck. Even if things have doubled that’s outrageous

 

[Just_Steve]

No cement buggies? I’ve seen them here use cement buggies to carry loads into property around here. They used a buggy to bring the cement into the barn. Renting a few might be the cheapest and safest way to deliver 20 yards.

I also see buggies being used in city areas with tight driveways.

 

[Kpaige]

Generally speaking if the driveway is solid no known issues a heavy tuck will only cause damage if it goes near a corner or edge with its tire and that gets exaggerated if they are near it with a front tire and turn . Those are the only times we had issues on good concrete driveways . We would walk the driveway down with each truck driver also.


On another note if that other home owner says it will deteriorate the driveway have them sign a letter that they will never have a single vehicle over 5000 pounds on the drive. Then when they need a roof done etc it just can’t happen- that’s just my evil side jumping out.

 

[MikeC55]

I did a quick check on cement buggies and don't see any of the concrete supplier web sites mention them. I'll call a few and see. I did find them for rent and for sale but it appears most of them only transport 14 - 16 cu ft. If I need 20 yards, that would be a lot of trips in the buggy and wouldn't the time element be a problem? There is one local place that specializes in mini-loads (up to 3.5 yards). More expenvie doing it that way (I assume), but maybe a better option (I don't think it would weigh any more than a full oil delivery truck). https://iwantconcrete.com/

 

[Firebrick43]

You will have to have two or even three if your going that far with buggies

 

[MikeC55]

I'm out of town at the moment but will post some pix on Thursday. If the mini-load concrete can promise they'll keep the trucks coming, that may be the best solution. There are no culverts to worry about so I guess defining 'failure' of the pavement would be obvious new cracks (or it turns to dust...) I'm no pavement/road expert so I'll assume there is a real possibility of road distress. Here's an overhead view.

 

[MikeC55]

I do agree with Zeke that it isn't worth an ulcer if the variance gets turned down. If denied, I won't appeal it; just sell and buy something more in line with what we want.

 

[Firebrick43]

A fully laden concrete truck can be over 50,000 pounds.

A European concrete truck or an African concrete truck?

 

[Yankeefarmer]

As a member of a zoning board of appeals in Connecticut, the neighbor’s concerns about the driveway is a non-issue, especially if they won’t bother to send a letter to the board or show up to speak at the public hearing.

The real issue is whether your property is sufficiently different from other properties in the neighborhood that you can prove a hardship for the board to justify granting a variance. Remember that a hardship is intrinsic to the property; it has nothing to do with the owner’s wants or needs.

 

[racecougar]

Generally speaking if the driveway is solid no known issues a heavy tuck will only cause damage if it goes near a corner or edge with its tire and that gets exaggerated if they are near it with a front tire and turn . Those are the only times we had issues on good concrete driveways . We would walk the driveway down with each truck driver also.

It sounds like the OP's shared driveway isn't in great shape though. Agreed that damage is very likely if a tire gets near an edge.

On another note if that other home owner says it will deteriorate the driveway have them sign a letter that they will never have a single vehicle over 5000 pounds on the drive. Then when they need a roof done etc it just can’t happen- that’s just my evil side jumping out.

That would preclude most pickup trucks from using the driveway. Hope the OP doesn't have a truck if trying to go with that scheme.


Flip this around for a second. Let's say you share a driveway with two of your neighbors. You're the first house on the driveway, the other neighbors are further down the shared drive. You've historically plowed the whole thing for free, to be a good neighbor. You've also covered a third of maintenance costs for the shared drive, even though you only drive on one third of the drive (and that third is shared by all three houses), meaning you really ought to only cover one ninth of those costs. Now one of your neighbors wants a variance to add onto his/her house, placing a portion of that addition closer to your property line than the rules, which have been in place forever, state. This project will require multiple concrete deliveries over the already less-than-perfect shared driveway. You voice your concern over this, and get a "screw that guy" for it. Meanwhile you're expected to continue plowing the road, likely tearing it and your equipment up further after the concrete deliveries jack it all up.

This really should be a AITA post on Reddit.

 

[RPH]

Have a couple running, at a yard and quarter per two trips that’s not bad. Can’t overwhelm the guys laying out either. Cement mounts wait for nothing but cure.

 

[Monza Harry]

A class 7 truck can be upto 34000#, class 8 [Tandem rears, single steers] upto 60,000#, class 9 tandems/triples or tandem/1tag, and 1 steer and tandem/tandem will be at about 81,000#. Now those are ~max truck values, you are in north country and road restrictions (weather and local restrictions) will be the deciding factors for weight. Tandem/ tandems have huge front steers like 14-16" wide so their scrubbing can't be ignored either, but the rear will be much less than a triple axle scrubbing. Note tag axles that steer lift in reverse so loading changes while backing up [non steering tags scrub HUGE while turning]. I feel the power buggy will be your best answer. [~34 trips at full load so 2 will be needed] Alternatively an agreement with you shouldering an added share of the slightly early repair/replacement of a clearly end of life driveway, say 40/30/30% or what you can negotiate with your neighbors for your best outcome. It sounds like the drive is nearing that time now at ~50 years and a cheap method at that. Harry
OH as an after thought a bottle of spirits an a couple of glasses (1 for him and 1 for you) will help with that neighbour, and generally trying to be fair and thankful of his contribution should make things considerably smoother.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

…..

Any thoughts? My meeting with zoning board is a week out. I don't know if they actually reached out to talk to the neighbors. Is are a few passes by heavy vehicles going to destroy the road?

The Zoning Board of Appeals is not charged with the duty of reaching out to the neighbors, except to notify abutters that there is a variance application and to inform them of the time, date, and place of the public hearing. In fact, in training required for commissioners by law, talking with neighbors outside the public hearing is discouraged. They do have a duty to hold a public hearing and allow interested parties to speak, and for all deliberations to be open to the public.

 

[MikeC55]

The real issue is whether your property is sufficiently different from other properties in the neighborhood that you can prove a hardship for the board to justify granting a variance. Remember that a hardship is intrinsic to the property; it has nothing to do with the owner’s wants or needs.

"Specify fully the reasons why the variance or appeal should be granted, stating clearly the exceptional difficulty or unusual hardship. (Bear in mind that financial hardships WILL NOT warrant a variance.) State exactly the terms of the resolution you desire the Zoning Board of Appeals to grant:"

It would certaainly be easier to defend the variance if the zoning board views it as Yankeefarmer suggested above. The house is significantly smaller than the average house in the town (and neighborhood, I would estimate 30 -40% smaller at minimum) and the vast majority have attached garages. I hope they do take that tack...

As far as the zoning board meeting, I was a bit surprised that it will be held on Zoom, instead of in person. I guess if an abutting propertly owner doesn't have a computer or smart phone, they better make other arrangements.... I'm going to be back in town tomorrow and will be meeting with my neighbor to discuss. I have to assume they all received the letter announcing the meeting with the zoom link but my copy shows no cc's.

 

[mrbill55]

A European concrete truck or an African concrete truck?

Careful, the neighbor in question might step out in the road yelling "help, help, I'm being repressed, come see the violence in the system"

In regards to the dilemma, personally, I'd ask the neighbor what he suggests as an "equitable and fair solution". Use those words exactly as I wrote them, you just might be surprised at the response, and in a positive way.


Bill S.

 

[MikeC55]

As long as he isn’t a member of an anarcho-syndicalist commune…

Yea, I will ask him. The addition won’t even be visible from his house, so I’m pretty sure it’s the driveway he’s worried about.

 

[mrbill55]

As long as he isn’t a member of an anarcho-syndicalist commune…

Yea, I will ask him. The addition won’t even be visible from his house, so I’m pretty sure it’s the driveway he’s worried about.

If he is plowing for free, then the condition of the driveway vs the potential damage to his plow equipment might also be on his mind. Believe me, when you are going 10-20mph, and the plow blade kicks back past the tension springs, the shock to not only the plow setup, but the frame of the truck it is attached to, and of course any fillings in your mouth, come in to play.

Bill S.

 

[johninct]

The board will reject the "damage to the driveway as a reason" for objection. On the other hand, if the neighbor has a good "Zoning reason", regardless of his real reason, you could have a problem

 

[racecougar]

If he is plowing for free, then the condition of the driveway vs the potential damage to his plow equipment might also be on his mind. Believe me, when you are going 10-20mph, and the plow blade kicks back past the tension springs, the shock to not only the plow setup, but the frame of the truck it is attached to, and of course any fillings in your mouth, come in to play.

Bill S.

Exactly what I was getting at above. The more the road gets jacked up, the harder it becomes on your plow.

 

[Youngandfree]

If he is plowing for free, then the condition of the driveway vs the potential damage to his plow equipment might also be on his mind. Believe me, when you are going 10-20mph, and the plow blade kicks back past the tension springs, the shock to not only the plow setup, but the frame of the truck it is attached to, and of course any fillings in your mouth, come in to play.

Bill S.

I would argue his plowing is what's degrading the driveway.

 

[mrbill55]

I would argue his plowing is what's degrading the driveway.

If he has the proper spring mounted skids on the bottom of his plow, I disagree. Then again, you get mostly ice with a little snow on top, where in CT, mostly snow, with maybe a little ice on top. Less likely to do as much damage to the aging macadam in the OP's case.

Bill S.

 

[finn]

I would argue his plowing is what's degrading the driveway.

You obviously don’t live in snow country. Any driveway that can’t be cleared of snow in the winter isn’t very deserving of the title “driveway”.

 

[Hank11]

You could offer to repair any damage - which you would probably do anyway.

 

[MikeC55]

Talked to the neighbor today and it turns out his primary concern is the trucks using his personal driveway turn off as a spot to turn the trucks around. I promised I would be there when concrete is poured and supplies delivered to ensure they don't do that. I said I would get some orange cones and put them up as a reminder not to drive on their personal driveway or grass. They were happy with that and said would not object to variance (but would not sign a letter stating this due to previous 'bad experience', requiring them to hire a lawyer). I think the blue trace shows what has happened before, that he wants to avoid. I can understand that. I also learned that it has been several years since he plowed the driveway. My aunt had been hiring someone to do it and the 3 neighbors split the cost. There is enough room for trucks to turn around and stay on my property but it will mean driving over edge of my driveway. I'll put some plywood over the edges to prevent that. I don't see why a concrete truck couldn't back down the driveway either...

 

[Firebrick43]

I don't see why a concrete truck couldn't back down the driveway either...

Hopefully the drivers will not of been previously employed with Swift a few months prior to hiring on!

 

[mrbill55]

Talked to the neighbor today and it turns out his primary concern is the trucks using his personal driveway turn off as a spot to turn the trucks around. I promised I would be there when concrete is poured and supplies delivered to ensure they don't do that. I said I would get some orange cones and put them up as a reminder not to drive on their personal driveway or grass. They were happy with that and said would not object to variance (but would not sign a letter stating this due to previous 'bad experience', requiring them to hire a lawyer). I think the blue trace shows what has happened before, that he wants to avoid. I can understand that. I also learned that it has been several years since he plowed the driveway. My aunt had been hiring someone to do it and the 3 neighbors split the cost. There is enough room for trucks to turn around and stay on my property but it will mean driving over edge of my driveway. I'll put some plywood over the edges to prevent that. I don't see why a concrete truck couldn't back down the driveway either...

See, sometimes it's the easier path to just sit back and listen to the actual concerns of the neighbors. If the board asks why he would not sign, you can explain his reason to them, they will understand immediately and move along with the process. As for advising the concrete trucks to back down, if the builder tells them there is no turn around at the end of the drive, they will, but it must be specified in writing to the concrete supplier. If a truck comes down nose first, they he will need to back out afterwards. Again, always have things like this put in writing, that way if something goes wrong, you are not to blame and can then seek a remedy for the damage that may occur.

Bill S.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

Please let us know how your variance hearing went.

 

[03ranger]

Question: How is the road shared? Easement? Is there a written road agreement in place? If so what does the road agreement provide concerning maintenance.
Check your title to the property concerning the shared road and find out where you stand.

 

[MikeC55]

Well, Yankeefarmer was right. "The real issue is whether your property is sufficiently different from other properties in the neighborhood that you can prove a hardship for the board to justify granting a variance. Remember that a hardship is intrinsic to the property; it has nothing to do with the owner’s wants or needs." I did research the GIS and found other properties that (clearly) didn't meet the setback rules, so I know there have been variances granted in the past (or built illegally). But the board claimed my reasons for the request, if granted, 'would set a precendent'... I argued that there had clearly been variances granted to set backs since the current regulations were in force (1986), but they said, they 'were not there to discuss other properties; just my application'. Didn't matter that most homes have attached 2 car garages and are larger than 2000 sq ft. In other words, the setting a precedent comment made no sense if it makes no difference what went before. How do you argue against that? Unless your property was surrounded by wetlands on 3 sides, what could possibly constitute a hardship that would prevent building where setbacks would be satified? I pointed out there is rock ledge at the surface on left side of house and would blasting to put in a foundation make my neighbors happy? They could offer no examples... but I was free to search through the zoning board minutes of past meetings. This is Redding, CT, by the way.

 

[jonesg]

was that quote from a pumping companies or your concrete guys? I would quote another place.

A few years ago I paid 650$ for over 30 yards to be pumped with a boom truck. Even if things have doubled that’s outrageous

i paid $600 for 3 yards this summer. no extension boom required.
maybe you paid 6K.

 

[Firebrick43]

i paid $600 for 3 yards this summer. no extension boom required.
maybe you paid 6K.

No, it was 650. I probably depends on how far the pumper has to come and the site set up as well, and the competitiveness/how many companies are operating in the area. Its not as if northern maine has a city of any size. The largest city in maine is half the size of the city 25 miles away. And its not in the top 5 of indiana.

Also I was doing ICF so I was getting concrete in weather that people typically didn't get concrete in (cold) I have no idea if it being the off season had anything to do with it.

 

[Fav Onefour]

@MikeC55 , Thanks for the update.
We went through the variance process for a somewhat similar project. In our situation we wanted to drop the garage one level to eliminate a very steeply sloped drive. It involved moving the garage forward and five feet into the setback. The planning commission expressed concern about "setting a precedent" and didn't go for the idea. We went all the way to city council with neighbors that spoke on our behalf. The same "precedent" language came from the city council. It didn't matter that our neighbors were in favor of our plan. In reality, the whole works hinged on opinion.
We ran into a little irony in our case while going through the process. New code would not have allowed the steep drive to be built. It is apparently a safety issue.

 

[MikeC55]

Yup. That’s the impression I came away with.
Maybe a Philadelphia lawyer could have made a difference but it kind of soured me on staying in the town..

 

[Chaznsc]

"The real issue is whether your property is sufficiently different from other properties in the neighborhood that you can prove a hardship for the board to justify granting a variance. Remember that a hardship is intrinsic to the property; it has nothing to do with the owner’s wants or needs.”

This is the proper way to handle variances. It’s got to be a peculiar situation, unique to the property and all that. Bringing in other properties likely turned them off because every variance stands on its own. Hope you can find what you need.

 

[rayra]

A European concrete truck or an African concrete truck?

Are you suggesting that concrete trucks are migratory?

 

[Firebrick43]

Are you suggesting that concrete trucks are migratory?

And carry coconuts

 

[MikeC55]

I thought it was a coconut slurry....

It seems a catch-22. They say 'we can't set a precedent'. If you try to bring up other properties where such was done (presumeably, with a variance), you get, "oh no, we're not here to discuss other properties, just yours". Sounds like a kangaroo court to me. Perhaps I should have mentioned the original boneheads in zoning that allowed the larger property to be subdivided into the narrow rectangle my house sits on. What if your property was 100' x 80'? Sorry, you have no room to build anything with setbacks... Might as well make them retroactive.. Sorry, but you need to tear 15' off the front of your house because it doesn't meet current setbacks....

 

[duneslider]

Sounds like not a great place to live honestly. I got a variance when I built my house a couple years ago, I got a variance when remodeling several times in the past. Neighbors never commented when the letters were sent out and when I showed up for the meeting there was hardly a discussion since no neighbors were concerned.

I even changed my plans part way through my house build and sent an email to see if we needed to have another meeting to discuss and they told me it was good and to proceed.

The only time I have heard people in my area have issues is if neighbors had concerns, or it created major issues with safety (blocking views of roads/intersections, etc).

You seem to be in a pretty "rural" location, I can't see how what you are wanting to do would be a problem. Sorry it didn't work out.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

Sorry to hear you were denied. Zoning is a double-edged sword; it interferes with your ability to do what you want with your property, but it keeps your neighbor from opening a used car lot or liquor store or other uses you might find unpleasant and harmful to your property value.

If you wish, you can reapply in 6 months, maybe sooner if you can come up with an alternative that is different. (The board is not required to hear the same request in less than 6 months from a denial.) Our board denied a variance for a house addition last year, then, two months later, approved a variance for the same property and purpose, because the applicant changed his design to minimize the nonconformance and, more importantly, pointed out the design challenge he was dealing with that we found to constitute a hardship. There was still one member that voted to deny.

If you’d like me to take a look at your application and plot plan and see if I can offer any suggestions, PM me.