BigGarage
Well-known member
What does "air gapped" mean?
Smart Meters…
- Thread starter smokey0810
- Start date
dave*99
Well-known member
The simplest explanation is an air gapped computer network is isolated from other networks and operates as an island. For instance, if you had a couple computers and a few printers networked together in your house, and you had no internet connection or other ways for your stuff to communicate with the outside world, it could be said your home network is air gapped.
If you had a factory and computers controlled all the machines, you may want to air gap that network from the outside world.
For information to cross the air gap, someone would use a USB drive, plug in a laptop on your network, or other means to move information (and malware) There is more to the story, but these are the basics.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
With almost every computer built these days with wlfi and bluetooth capability already installed, air gapping is becoming harder and harder to ensure.
BigGarage
Well-known member
Jim greengo
Well-known member
I hate all of that smart ****,opt out.
Our co-op didn’t give us a choice, but at that time it was for usage monitoring, and to remotely switch off the water heater (or the whole house)It's the "comply or pay" part of this deal that would scare me.
Yes I'm a boomer, if that matters for inquiring minds...
I wish I would have invested in tinfoil. I’d be stinking rich today.
dcg9381
Well-known member
And with ransomware / cyber extortion becoming a 100's of billions dollar criminal business, it's more important than ever. They can't encrypt your backups if they can't get to your backups. And if you can't get to your backups, they can't get to your backups. It's a thing.
But I also agree if it's connected to the POCs network and the POC has an internet connection, it's at risk.
Honestly, that makes sense to me. If having the "old" thing costs the company more money (like when they had to come by and "read" the meter) then you should pay a tax on being unwilling to decrease those costs.It's the "comply or pay" part of this deal that would scare me.
I'm actually surprised that the PoCo gives you a choice. FYI, I "paid" a one-time fee for a "smart meter" - but it was necessary due to backfeeding of a solar system that I put in. The PoCo still does "rolling brownouts" during demand pressure, they don't control it residence by residence.
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reader2580
Well-known member
Xcel Energy had remote read electric meters decades before they started smart meter installations. The electric cooperative in my area still had meter readers until they installed smart meters in 2017 or 2018. I had the first smart meter in my area because I needed a bi-directional meter for my solar and they didn't want to replace my meter twice. The meter readers were supposedly given new jobs if they wanted to stay with the cooperative.Only thing about smart meters is if your PoCo introduces time of use metering your bill is going up, and they get to fire all the meter readers. It's not going control your appliances, cause puppies, & kittens, to be born blind, or curve your spine.
reader2580
Well-known member
If your power company is still using analog meters without remote read capabilities for those who opt out of smart meters then the monthly fee makes sense. It costs real money to have a meter reader go out to take readings, especially if they have to make a special trip for the one house in a neighborhood that opted out.
Smart meters save the power company time and money when there is an outage. They know exactly which properties have no power so they don't need to have lineman driving all over trying to determine where the outage is exactly. The dispatcher can tell from the meters that are out where the problem most likely is at.
Smart meters save the power company time and money when there is an outage. They know exactly which properties have no power so they don't need to have lineman driving all over trying to determine where the outage is exactly. The dispatcher can tell from the meters that are out where the problem most likely is at.
It is so bizarre to me that 'smart meters' have become such a controversial topic, or even a point of discussion at all. It is the power companies equipment, they are selling you power and have a reasonable requirement to both meter and control that power through the meter that they provide - it doesn't seem like they have an responsibility to consult with the customers on this. They don't ask you when they change their billing software or recloser settings.
Personally I love our smart meter- gives me hour by hour energy consumption (or production) data. I can even access the meter directly pull the consumption data from the meter, for second-by-second data.
Personally I love our smart meter- gives me hour by hour energy consumption (or production) data. I can even access the meter directly pull the consumption data from the meter, for second-by-second data.
larry4406
Well-known member
Can you imagine if gas stations had time of purchase pricing?!!
I mean war, winter blend, summer blend, holidays,
Ohh, wait, they already do….
I mean war, winter blend, summer blend, holidays,
Ohh, wait, they already do….
I have an analog meter and I opted out of the smart meter upgrade. I really don't cost the POCo any extra, I read my meter and enter it in my POCO account online. Poco meter reader has not been at my house in years. I pay extra for opting out and it costs them nothing.
dcg9381
Well-known member
How does the PoCo know you're entering the right stuff?
Seems kinda like the "honor box" at the local boat ramp. I know how well that works.
They are supposed to show up once a year for an actual reading, but they never bothered. That has become an issue when houses in my area sell and POCO shows up for the first reading with the new owner. There was a house in my area that the previous owner had fudged the readings for years and had an outstanding balance of over 7K. It was on the local news and for some reason the POCO settled with the previous owner for half the owed amount. I thought that was wrong, they should have had to pay every penny owed back.
It’s all just part of our walk,through the Funhouse
It wasn’t that long ago that those who were “in the know” did their best to convince everyone else that the RF signals from telemetric electric meters (smart, and dumb )was going to cause brain cancer, or psychological trauma
If that was the case, maybe those tinfoil hats came in handy.
dcg9381
Well-known member
I'd say that this "essentially" costs the PoCo money, as they're likely under collecting revenue that has to be made up by prices to everyone else in aggregate. There IS a real cost to rolling a truck and dispatching a human (even if it's just once a year or upon "new account ownership").
I wonder if any of these smart meters would allow "remote disconnect" rather than have the PoCo come out to "remove the meter" for downstream electrical work? When they shut off power for non-payment, does the PoCo roll a truck to do that physically (like they do at the water meter)?
Our co-op can do remote connect and disconnect of power to the Structure
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
my PoCo can indeed remotely shutoff meters without a truck roll
dcg9381
Well-known member
As a sparkie, is that "good enough" for doing downstream work, or is a physical disconnect more typical?
reader2580
Well-known member
The local co-op will allow anyone to pull a meter so long as you notify them first. The meters are all smart meters.
I wonder how that cost compares to the systems, maintenance, software licenses, etc to run the smart meter system. I'd bet the POCO does not run the servers and the software, I'm sure they purchase it all as a service from some contractor, servers are probably in some AWS cloud. Ultimately easier for the POCO to manage as they just buy a service, pure speculation on my part, I think I'll research that.
edit
After a few minutes of research it looks like NISC developed smart hub which is what my POCO uses. It looks like a service/solution the POCO buys. Not sure, but they are doing okay.
the company
https://www.nisc.coop/blog/beyond-the-bill-the-power-of-smarthub/
annual report
https://www.niscannualreport.coop/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Statement-of-Revenues-Expenses.pdf
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You wouldn't rely on it (we hope, for your sake)
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
There are some rather resourceful parties involved in these games, and while it's not targeted, general chaos is the goal.
Guaranteed they are inside at least one poco.
Guaranteed they are inside at least one poco.
Could be a lot of the "same old, same old" in American business.
Always seems to be plenty of money for Executive bonuses.
Only 9% of IT budgets are dedicated to security; decreased spending expected
New Vanta report on trust offers strategies to automate the most tedious tasks and get security teams focused on their most strategic work.
So true. If we didn't have independent auditors riding our rears at my work, we'd have so much unpatched stuff because some folks think it's not a big deal because "it's behind a firewall anyway..."Could be a lot of the "same old, same old" in American business.
Always seems to be plenty of money for Executive bonuses.
Only 9% of IT budgets are dedicated to security; decreased spending expected
New Vanta report on trust offers strategies to automate the most tedious tasks and get security teams focused on their most strategic work.www.scmagazine.com
Metal-Marc
Well-known member
83VillageRepair
Well-known member
All meters are smart these days even if you opt out you are just turning off the radio portion of the meter. Some smart meters communicate with power line carrier instead of RF. They are not a homogenous device, there are many manufacturers and they use multiple different technologies.
Smart meters are used for:
-Knowing time of use (power costs the utility different amounts at different time)
-Remote connect and disconnect for non-payment
-"Pinging" the meter during outages to see if the house has power.
-They have limited use for diagnosing power quality problems (blink reports)
-Used to detect theft (moving meters or turning upside down)
-Used for bi-directional metering for distributed generation (solar, wind)
What they are not used for:
-controlling individual appliances (would need an additional smart device wired to the AC, water heater, etc..)
-rolling blackouts (these are done on a feeder or substation basis through SCADA)
-The remote disconnect feature is not used as a safety device and is not rated for that. (Visible open required)
Most people opt out due to health concerns from RF/EMF exposure although they have no problem putting a much larger Transmitter right next to their head (cell phone).
Smart meters are used for:
-Knowing time of use (power costs the utility different amounts at different time)
-Remote connect and disconnect for non-payment
-"Pinging" the meter during outages to see if the house has power.
-They have limited use for diagnosing power quality problems (blink reports)
-Used to detect theft (moving meters or turning upside down)
-Used for bi-directional metering for distributed generation (solar, wind)
What they are not used for:
-controlling individual appliances (would need an additional smart device wired to the AC, water heater, etc..)
-rolling blackouts (these are done on a feeder or substation basis through SCADA)
-The remote disconnect feature is not used as a safety device and is not rated for that. (Visible open required)
Most people opt out due to health concerns from RF/EMF exposure although they have no problem putting a much larger Transmitter right next to their head (cell phone).
reader2580
Well-known member
I thought the point of paying extra to not have a smart meter is to have an old fashioned analog meter instead? I'm sure a lot of the people who don't want a smart meter wouldn't trust the power company to actually turn off the radio portion of a smart meter.
83VillageRepair
Well-known member
Even the dumb meters are pretty smart. Not too many clockwork style meters these days. Even without the radio it is still a smart meter. You are paying extra because a truck has to roll and read that meter at $150 an hour.
dcg9381
Well-known member
there are small antennas on the power pole under the transformers at my place... No idea what they are there for, perhaps monitoring the transformer? But if we've got monitoring upstream, I don't see much difference in putting it on the individual meters.
I assume (as someone else mentioned) that they could modulate signal in the existing wires, but no idea how that works across transformers and what happens when a big fuse blows, etc.
83VillageRepair
Well-known member
Typically those are repeaters for RF Mesh Smart metering. Basically call forwarding for a meter or group of meters that can't get through to the back office due to topography.
why not both? just turn the dumb electric furnaces on with the smart thermostat while texas has all the ACs on. boom! leet haxxOrs making a cyber attack overload the grid!Guess they will have to decide what is the biggest risk
Disruption from cyber attack or disruption from an overloaded grid
personally, I opted into TOU a long while back. It has been pretty easy to work within the system to save 10% on my bill. then I added solar and I love it even more. I get dirt cheap power when the sun is down, and the solar covers my AC while the sun is up, and it doesn't matter what they charge for a kWh.
in fact, the more they charge on-peak, the better the ROI on my solar. at $1/kwh (which I assume is the current PG&E rate based on the love in this thread), ROI is fantastic!
reader2580
Well-known member
I am pretty sure the co-op locally (with 170,000 customers) was still using plain old analog meters until they went to smart meters in 2017 or 2018. They still had meter readers up until the smart meters were installed.
I know that is an exception because other utility companies had gone to remote read meters in the 1980s or 1990s, but they were not smart meters.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
not true. Pacific graft and execute does indeed offer analog meters with all the gears in their smart meter opt out plan. costs $16/mon extra
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Profit Gouge and Execute tier 1 rates around me (dont have Pacific gasp and extortion) are 46cents/kWh. it gets steep from therewhy not both? just turn the dumb electric furnaces on with the smart thermostat while texas has all the ACs on. boom! leet haxxOrs making a cyber attack overload the grid!
personally, I opted into TOU a long while back. It has been pretty easy to work within the system to save 10% on my bill. then I added solar and I love it even more. I get dirt cheap power when the sun is down, and the solar covers my AC while the sun is up, and it doesn't matter what they charge for a kWh.
in fact, the more they charge on-peak, the better the ROI on my solar. at $1/kwh (which I assume is the current PG&E rate based on the love in this thread), ROI is fantastic!
I would absolutely not pay extra money for the gear based meter. I want my bill on time without nonsense.
lol the name. We've got a few unkind names for the local ISPs. Spectrum is one of the actual names.
our flat rate here is about 15cents/kwh. I'm happy to pay 10 cents off-peak and let the solar eat the peak.
also I have my own customer meter as part of the solar kit (enphase). it's darn close to what the utility says.
83VillageRepair
Well-known member
I certainly can't speak for PGE (or any company for that matter) but I would suspect they are an outlier. The only requirement for most regulatory authorities is that it doesn't communicate to count as opt out