Can I run heat strips only, permanently?

[teknikfrog]

It's going to be time to get a new AC unit for my house eventually and I'm trying to make a plan. Right now I have a heat pump from Trane (I've posted a couple threads complaining about it). This will be a DIY install. I'm comfortable doing the work.

I'm interested in deleting the heat pump and installing a simple AC unit. Reasons:
- Much cheaper equipment prices
- Simpler circuitry that will tolerate the poor quality electricity we have here (frequent surges, brownouts, etc)
- Less valves and associated plumbing
- Cheaper replacement parts
- More reliable due to far less solid state and mechanical components
- Less racket. Every heat pump I've seen makes all sorts of godawful noises

This would necessitate me running the heat strips for heat. I do not have gas here, only electric.

How bad of an idea is this? Before you say "very bad", I have a couple mitigating factors:
- I live in a very well insulated log home
- Most of my heat in the winter comes from a woodstove
- I'm in Kentucky and our winters are mostly mild

My intent right now is to shut down my woodstove for a couple days, pull the disconnect on the outside unit, and command my thermostat to run aux heat on 72*. Then after a couple days, pull the data from my Ecobee and do the math; hours on * rated wattage * the kW/h price of electricity here should provide a snapshot of what it would cost to run purely resistance heat. From there I can calculate the "worst case" scenario and see what that does to my bill. My thinking is if the "worst case" means my bill is $600 a month in the winter that is no big deal, but if it's $1100 then that would be a problem.

Is this a dumb idea? Am I missing something? Can heat strips be used for primary heating or are they truly intended for emergencies / severe cold snaps?

 

[TigerDude]

Of course. Heat strips tend to be expensive to run, but I have an old house in idaho Falls, ID that was all heat strip baseboards besue the town an on cheap hydro. My current HVAC is heat strip via central air, but I live in South Louisiana, so heating isn't usually an issue (not this week tho!).

People who say "just get cold weather heat pump" assume we all have tens of thousands of dollars laying around for such things.

 

[larry_g]

I have a large mobile home with an electric furnace, heat strips, and I heat with mostly wood. So the few hours the furnace runs is not going to be a huge factor in my heating costs. The location your in is also a factor. I'm in the Salem or area and we have a fairly moderate climate so the number of heating days where it is less than 45-50 degrees outside are few. I'm retired, so home a lot and keeping the fire going is not a big issue. I also keep the furnace set for 68* and if I want the house warmer then build a fire.
Just my way of thinking.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Reminds me of when my pastor bought his first house ever, didn't realize the heat pump on the new house was out, ran it on strips for a month and then asked me "How does anyone afford these $1400 power bills?" Having nothing to compare it to, he thought it must be the normal amount for a small 3 bedroom home.

Running heat strips only will use approximately 4 to 5 times as much power as using your heat pump only without strip heat.

 

[PoorUB]

Sure you can, but keep in mind if running a HP runs you $100 a month, straight electric will cost you $300-$400 a month. I can't help but think that will pay back after a few years.

 

[gtae07]

When we first moved in only our heat strips ran. Our winter power bill was almost three times our summer one.

I didn't realize we had a heat pump until the AC got replaced eight years later and the tech told me the heat pump part wasn't configured right. I had no idea.

Having nothing to compare it to, he thought it must be the normal amount for a small 3 bedroom home.

Exactly.

 

[mike93lx]

Don't think I've heard well insulated and log home used together. Curious what your setup is.

 

[FourthQuarter]

I don't think it's dumb, especially in a moderate climate.
The strips are safe to run continuously.

I've been living with heat pumps for ~35 years. Until very recently they sucked and may still **** if you add up service calls, component failures, and short (~15 year) life span.

I hear new 3 or 4 ton heat pumps are running $20K. If A/C only costs you half that you can buy alot of power before the heating cost crosses over.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

New heat pump compressor and air handler is under $5k for equipment.

3.5 Ton 14.5 SEER2 Multi Speed Goodman Central Heat Pump Split System - Multiposition

Save yourself and your dwelling against the icy clutch of winter and revel in the cozy, inviting atmosphere provided by the 3.5 Ton 14.5 SEER2 Multi Speed Goodman Central Heat Pump Split System - Multiposition. Both aspects of this Goodman Split System have been selected to ensure unwavering...

iwae.com

 

[fitter30]

Have heat strips now that your using? Have any idea what kw they are? If not need a clamp on amp meter to measure amperage in coming to heater. Can buy one for $25 at harbor freight or Amazon. Then we can tell what size heater you have. If not brand and complete model number outside unit. Call your electric company see if they offer a energy audit that includes a blower door test. Money well spent to see what improvements and rebates they offer and available.

 

[rancherbill]

It's going to be time to get a new AC unit for my house eventually and I'm trying to make a plan. Right now I have a heat pump from Trane (I've posted a couple threads complaining about it). This will be a DIY install. I'm comfortable doing the work.

I'm interested in deleting the heat pump and installing a simple AC unit. Reasons:
- Much cheaper equipment prices
- Simpler circuitry that will tolerate the poor quality electricity we have here (frequent surges, brownouts, etc)
- Less valves and associated plumbing
- Cheaper replacement parts
- More reliable due to far less solid state and mechanical components
- Less racket. Every heat pump I've seen makes all sorts of godawful noises

This would necessitate me running the heat strips for heat. I do not have gas here, only electric.

How bad of an idea is this? Before you say "very bad", I have a couple mitigating factors:

Is this a dumb idea? Am I missing something? Can heat strips be used for primary heating or are they truly intended for emergencies / severe cold snaps?

Probably. You're going to take a modern piece of equipment, hack it up and expect to be better than factory.

You don't need to do your little test. Here they are called furnace sizing calculations. They take into account temperature differential, extremes, insulation etc and tell you how much energy is needed to maintain a temperature.

My Daughter is fully electric baseboard heat.

My initial image of log cabin is something that's not really well insulated, secondly and MOST IMPORTANTLY your heat goes up the chimney and you're chasing your self self.

I would first go up there on the coldest day with An IR camera and take pictures inside and outside.

 

[danski0224]

If A/C only costs you half that

A standard single stage, non inverter straight AC condenser is NOT half the cost of an otherwise equivalent heat pump condenser.

 

[jlv03]

I don't think it's dumb, especially in a moderate climate.
The strips are safe to run continuously.

I've been living with heat pumps for ~35 years. Until very recently they sucked and may still **** if you add up service calls, component failures, and short (~15 year) life span.

I hear new 3 or 4 ton heat pumps are running $20K. If A/C only costs you half that you can buy alot of power before the heating cost crosses over.

A variable speed blower motor takes away the cold blast on spin up, making even a more conventional heat pump much easier to live with.

The cost delta between an air conditioner and heat pump was not even 10% when I had a new one put in place 6-7 years ago.

No way would I run on just heat strips if I had most of the infrastructure already in place for a heat pump.

 

[aka Larry]

My thinking is if the "worst case" means my bill is $600 a month in the winter that is no big deal

I would sh*t a brick if I got a $600 utility bill. Highest one I've ever seen in our house (1700 SF) has been $275.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

They call that emergency heat on my goodman heat pump. I have a 15kw heat strip that's the auxiarly heat and it runs to assist the heap pump when it gets behind. Running the strips alone in emergency mode doesn't do much. I think they should have went with the 20kw option. I think the 15kw only translates to 50kbtu and my 5 ton is 60kbtu

 

[teknikfrog]

Sure you can, but keep in mind if running a HP runs you $100 a month, straight electric will cost you $300-$400 a month. I can't help but think that will pay back after a few years.

I'd be completely fine with this. Again, saving thousands on not just the equipment but future repairs makes a huge dent in the benefits of a heat pump.

Don't think I've heard well insulated and log home used together. Curious what your setup is.

It's a relatively new construction (2004) log home and it's very airtight. For reference my AC was out almost all of july last summer and we were fine.

New heat pump compressor and air handler is under $5k for equipment.

Yes, but I can get a 3.5 ton AC for 2k less than that. And again, far less replacement part costs.

Probably. You're going to take a modern piece of equipment, hack it up and expect to be better than factory.

??

You don't need to do your little test. Here they are called furnace sizing calculations. They take into account temperature differential, extremes, insulation etc and tell you how much energy is needed to maintain a temperature.

There is no way I could come up with accurate details for the insulation in this house. Absolutely not a chance. For one, I have no clue what is sandwiched inside my roof. It's something good, because I've had snow on it for weeks, but I have zero chance of knowing what the R-value is. Same with the log walls. I would struggle to estimate their thickness, much less the species. What does the foundation have? I know some sort of foam but that's it.

The only way to run the numbers with clarity is going to be to do the test.

My initial image of log cabin is something that's not really well insulated, secondly and MOST IMPORTANTLY your heat goes up the chimney and you're chasing your self self.

Lol no, modern woodstoves (I have a high efficiency hybrid) do not send heat up the chimney. I can run the entire house on just wood.

BTW this is a modern 4-bedroom house not Abe Lincoln's drafty old cabin. I know what mental imagery "log home" conjures.

I would sh*t a brick if I got a $600 utility bill. Highest one I've ever seen in our house (1700 SF) has been $275.

$600 would be fine to me for a heat strip scenario. The non-heating portion of my bill runs around $300 year round.

Thanks everyone for your input.

My takeaway is that this is not an insane idea but I will need to proceed with my test to see how resistive heat works in my specific scenario, and then go from there. Provided it's not going to be cost-prohibitive then I think I will proceed with my AC "downgrade"

 

[PopcornSutton]

I have a heat pump system with electric backup. I don't like HP heat, it just feels cold to me. I use a wood stove from December to March or so. The HP heat is used along with the wood stove and it circulates the heat in the house. However, when the outside temp gets below 20 degrees, I just turn on emergency heat and use it. To grind away in heat mode in those less than 20 temps just doesn't make sense to me. Luckily those days are few most years. (present time excluded!)

 

[PoorUB]

I'd be completely fine with this. Again, saving thousands on not just the equipment but future repairs makes a huge dent in the benefits of a heat pump.

A properly installed HP should run for years, there is not much more to them other than the reversing valve, an outdoor TXV and defrost board.
I did HVAC for 20 years and have very few HPs that had issues. The ones that work troublesome were not because they were HPs.

My dad had a HP in his home that was built in 1976. I replaced that unit myself about 20 years ago and it is still running fine, never been touched other than cleaning the outdoor coil.

 

[jlv03]

I don't like HP heat, it just feels cold to me.

Is this with a newer air handler with a variable speed blower?

If not, you are missing out - the air slowly builds up as the heat starts to be pumped in by the heat pump. While the air doesn't feel "hot" like a gas furnace, it's not like the ice blasts I remember growing up with heat pumps or electric furnaces.

Fully variable (both the blower motor but also the outside unit) will get you the best comfort, but at a higher cost. These newer air handlers sure make even the single stage units much more tolerable with a little more money to boot at installation.

 

[teknikfrog]

A properly installed HP should run for years, there is not much more to them other than the reversing valve, an outdoor TXV and defrost board.
I did HVAC for 20 years and have very few HPs that had issues. The ones that work troublesome were not because they were HPs.

My dad had a HP in his home that was built in 1976. I replaced that unit myself about 20 years ago and it is still running fine, never been touched other than cleaning the outdoor coil.

I appreciate your counterpoint.

And it is a valid point. I mean, heat pumps don't cost THAT much more.

 

[u2slow]

I run my emergency heat ('heat strips') exclusively when i'm away from home in the winter. Gets the job done. When I'm home, I'm burning wood.

My heat pump is ~20yo and won't heat at all when outside temps are below 12°C. It doesn't need the extra wear & tear.

 

[teknikfrog]

I run my emergency heat ('heat strips') exclusively when i'm away from home in the winter. Gets the job done. When I'm home, I'm burning wood.

My heat pump is ~20yo and won't heat at all when outside temps are below 12°C. It doesn't need the extra wear & tear.

Go on then! What do you think is the impact on your bill?

 

[Steve W.]

I have a heat pump system with electric backup. I don't like HP heat, it just feels cold to me.

I have always felt the same way about that. Then I found out why. A heat pump might put out air that is 85-90° by the time it comes out the vents. That is cooler than your body temperature, so it feels "cool". However, leave it on long enough, the whole house will be about 85°, which tends to be rather uncomfortable.

I found that as long as you don't intentionally feel the air rushing out the vents and just concentrate on overall comfort, you'll be fine.

.

 

[u2slow]

Go on then! What do you think is the impact on your bill?

It goes up.
I get exactly what I pay for.

I left the house Jan 7 when temps were mild. You can see what the outdoor temps did for consumption after that. 9.6kW of air-handler strips in a 1600sqft single-level home.

 

[brewchief]

A basic heat pump is simply adding a reversing valve and a defrost board to an A/C, there is some added cost but it's relatively low.

The problem is when you try to make it super efficient, electronic txvs, inverter compressors etc add layers of complexity to a system and when it fails it's expensive to fix.

Look at a 15-16 seer unit instead of a 20 plus seer unit, the money you save with the more expensive unit you will pay out in repairs when it fails.

FWIW with r410a going away prices are going to rise across the board.

 

[BrandonV]

I have always felt the same way about that. Then I found out why. A heat pump might put out air that is 85-90° by the time it comes out the vents. That is cooler than your body temperature, so it feels "cool". However, leave it on long enough, the whole house will be about 85°, which tends to be rather uncomfortable.

I found that as long as you don't intentionally feel the air rushing out the vents and just concentrate on overall comfort, you'll be fine.

.

Well and throw in the fact that the heat pump might kick into defrost mode and you're really going to feel nice and cold.

Heat strips become a nice thing to have when it kicks on.

 

[yelchevelle]

I put in a Goodman variable speed 16 seer heat pump with my brother a couple of years ago. I live in Alabama. I put a gas furnace (a significant upgrade over electric) as my “backup”. It is amazingly quiet and way more efficient than what I have had before. I have two systems, and this one is 2 tons. This side of the house is way more consistent in temperature than the other single stage system.

I know you don’t have gas, but the really cool thing about mine is picks whether to use the heat pump or furnace based on what is most efficient. I think I paid around 6k for mine 2 years ago. Probably would have saved 1200 bucks if I didn’t go with the gas furnace. I don’t have wood, so I wanted the gas as a backup.

You really should run calculations on what size you need. My house was built in the 50’s. The old furnace that I replaced was installed in the late 80’s-early 90’s. They had a 120k btu (maybe 73% efficiency) and I replaced it with a 96% 40k btu heater. It works flawlessly. That end of the house is perfect, even when we have days with temperatures in the teens. It’s amazing how much better everything runs when you size all the duct work properly and seal it all up.

 

[dscheidt]

my basement minisplit was putting out 105F air the other morning, at -8F outside temperature. That's below the claimed minimum temperature by a couple degrees, even.

 

[mm08822]

I put in a Goodman variable speed 16 seer heat pump with my brother a couple of years ago. I live in Alabama. I put a gas furnace (a significant upgrade over electric) as my “backup”. It is amazingly quiet and way more efficient than what I have had before. I have two systems, and this one is 2 tons. This side of the house is way more consistent in temperature than the other single stage system.

I know you don’t have gas, but the really cool thing about mine is picks whether to use the heat pump or furnace based on what is most efficient. I think I paid around 6k for mine 2 years ago. Probably would have saved 1200 bucks if I didn’t go with the gas furnace. I don’t have wood, so I wanted the gas as a backup.

You really should run calculations on what size you need. My house was built in the 50’s. The old furnace that I replaced was installed in the late 80’s-early 90’s. They had a 120k btu (maybe 73% efficiency) and I replaced it with a 96% 40k btu heater. It works flawlessly. That end of the house is perfect, even when we have days with temperatures in the teens. It’s amazing how much better everything runs when you size all the duct work properly and seal it all up.

This is exactly what systems that have multiple energy sources do. You need to do a calculation based on furnace fuel input (NG or LP) and compare it to the cost of running the heat pump. The calculation determines at what outside temperature you need to "cross over" from heat pump to furnace fuel for lower operating cost.

It takes into account the energy purchase price, btus/purchased energy unit and equipment efficiency.

In my area, NG is cheaper than electric and electric is cheaper than LP.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

It's going to be time to get a new AC unit for my house eventually and I'm trying to make a plan. Right now I have a heat pump from Trane (I've posted a couple threads complaining about it). This will be a DIY install. I'm comfortable doing the work.

I'm interested in deleting the heat pump and installing a simple AC unit. Reasons:
- Much cheaper equipment prices
- Simpler circuitry that will tolerate the poor quality electricity we have here (frequent surges, brownouts, etc)
- Less valves and associated plumbing
- Cheaper replacement parts
- More reliable due to far less solid state and mechanical components
- Less racket. Every heat pump I've seen makes all sorts of godawful noises

This would necessitate me running the heat strips for heat. I do not have gas here, only electric.

How bad of an idea is this? Before you say "very bad", I have a couple mitigating factors:
- I live in a very well insulated log home
- Most of my heat in the winter comes from a woodstove
- I'm in Kentucky and our winters are mostly mild

My intent right now is to shut down my woodstove for a couple days, pull the disconnect on the outside unit, and command my thermostat to run aux heat on 72*. Then after a couple days, pull the data from my Ecobee and do the math; hours on * rated wattage * the kW/h price of electricity here should provide a snapshot of what it would cost to run purely resistance heat. From there I can calculate the "worst case" scenario and see what that does to my bill. My thinking is if the "worst case" means my bill is $600 a month in the winter that is no big deal, but if it's $1100 then that would be a problem.

Is this a dumb idea? Am I missing something? Can heat strips be used for primary heating or are they truly intended for emergencies / severe cold snaps?

Yes, this is a dumb idea. a reversing valve, demand defrost board and crankcase heater should only add a few hundred dollars over the same unit as straight AC.

i looked and didn't see your threads about your heatpump. link please?

expect 2.5-3x the cost of the heat pump as strip heat.

most people go out of their way to avoid strip heat, many thermostats allow you to lock them out above x degrees outdoor temp.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

here's a 3 ton 15 SEER inverter unit for 4k + freight

3 Ton Bosch 15 SEER Heat Pump Inverter System BOVA-36HDN1-M15G, BVA-36WN1-M15

Bosch IDS Light Series 3 Ton True Inverter Heat Pump System Delivers 15 SEER Efficiency While Keeping Sound Levels As Low As 59dBA. The Outdoor Compressor & Fan Motor Freely Ramps Up & Down Per Demand, Offering Operating Levels From 25-110% Capacity. 10 Year Parts Warranty & 90 Day Labor Warranty!

www.budgetheating.com

the inverter units are MUCH quieter outside in temperate weather, and deliver warmer air in cool weather as they're able to increase compressor power as it gets colder.

I have a professionally installed 5 ton budget inverter unit at work, without ANY aux heat. aside from a few complaints in sub-zero weather, it has performed as expected. We have the outdoor unit stage itself on sensors alone, and the indoor unit demand is controlled by a standard non-communicating 2 stage stat.

 

[teknikfrog]

Yes, this is a dumb idea. a reversing valve, demand defrost board and crankcase heater should only add a few hundred dollars over the same unit as straight AC.

Every comparison I make b/w heat pumps and AC is two thousand dollars or more.

Can I get a heat pump install where there are no circuit boards? I can buy an AC compressor unit that has
- A contactor

...and nothing else. I want this:



So 2k obviously doesn't amortize out beyond a couple years--unless you are running a woodstove like in my situation. That 2k could possibly amortize out near the lifespan of the unit. Add in supply chain issues and manufacturing defects (capacitor plague anyone?), power surges, etc and the heat pumps start to look like a liability. In a pinch I can jumper an AC unit to 'on'. I feel I would struggle to do that with a heat pump.

That said I do think some of the arguments for low-SEER heat pumps are persuasive.

i looked and didn't see your threads about your heatpump. link please?

DIY heat pump install on house

This is for my house, not my garage, but this seems like the right place to ask this. I have a Trane heat pump 2 months out of warranty that is a total lemon. Four failures in five years, including 2 months into the install. I blame both installer workmanship issues as well as Trane for making...

www.garagejournal.com

Some fun light reading but not particularly applicable to this thread topic. I did learn a lot though.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Every comparison I make b/w heat pumps and AC is two thousand dollars or more.

Can I get a heat pump install where there are no circuit boards? I can buy an AC compressor unit that has
- A contactor

...and nothing else. I want this:



So 2k obviously doesn't amortize out beyond a couple years--unless you are running a woodstove like in my situation. That 2k could possibly amortize out near the lifespan of the unit. Add in supply chain issues and manufacturing defects (capacitor plague anyone?), power surges, etc and the heat pumps start to look like a liability. In a pinch I can jumper an AC unit to 'on'. I feel I would struggle to do that with a heat pump.

That said I do think some of the arguments for low-SEER heat pumps are persuasive.

DIY heat pump install on house

This is for my house, not my garage, but this seems like the right place to ask this. I have a Trane heat pump 2 months out of warranty that is a total lemon. Four failures in five years, including 2 months into the install. I blame both installer workmanship issues as well as Trane for making...

www.garagejournal.com

Some fun light reading but not particularly applicable to this thread topic. I did learn a lot though.

Yes, if you do geothermal.

otherwise your heatpump needs a way to stop the fan and de-ice the coil.

if you have a simple unit (not inverter), I recommend this aftermarket demand defrost board:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/White-Rodgers-47D01U-843-Heat-Pump-Defrost-Control?

it's programmable/customizable.

 

[teknikfrog]

Nooooooo see this is just my point.

I don't want the ability to order a fancy aftermarket defrost control board to repair my unit that breaks mid-winter. Oh, and I become a technician real fast or I learn how pricey emergency winter repairs can get from a VC-owned hvac repair shop.

I reject the entire premise. There are big tangible and intagible costs to these units.

 

[mike93lx]

That's going to be a hard one to get much agreement on, but it's your money. If that peace of mind is worth the utility bills to you, send it

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Nooooooo see this is just my point.

I don't want the ability to order a fancy aftermarket defrost control board to repair my unit that breaks mid-winter. Oh, and I become a technician real fast or I learn how pricey emergency winter repairs can get from a VC-owned hvac repair shop.

I reject the entire premise. There are big tangible and intagible costs to these units.

ok but you can have a spare $80 board sitting. or pay the man $250 service call for a junk factory $250 board that takes 3-5 days to get and another 250 to put in.

meanwhile in those 5 days you've spent an extra $50/day on strip heat.


But seriously the other day when it was 0F outside my 6kW garage heater burned 74kWh so i could get some drywall mudding done. Ironically I'm doing this so i can get my mini split up so it's cheaper to heat, so i can do more with the space.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I understand your premise.I would select a Trane XR16 system for A/C. https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/air-conditioners/xr16-air-conditioners/
I wouldn't touch Goodman or Bosch. If you are replacing the baseboard you have now check out Qmark 240V https://www.supplyhouse.com/QMark-Electric-Baseboard-Heaters-1829000
Have you considered some sort of solar array setup to offset some of the added cost of running electric heat? It wouldn't have to be huge just to offset some of the cost.

 

[mike93lx]

Have you considered some sort of solar array setup to offset some of the added cost of running electric heat? It wouldn't have to be huge just to offset some of the cost.

Sounds too fancy

 

[Mr onetwo]

Sounds too fancy

Just a thought

 

[teknikfrog]

There is no chance I would ever spend money on a Trane system ever again after how they treated me.