Sub Panel wiring questions...

[WI/MI Border]

Could he use Mobile Home Feeder for his project? This is more-or-less a copy of my project I did (I used 90A breakers as I found a better deal on them on eBay).

Thanks, but I have my wire on order so I'm barreling forward. 2 60' - 1awg XHHW, 1 60' - 2awd XHHW and 1 60' - 6awg XHHW. $136.60 shipped from City Electric Supply. I thought that was a very good price. When that arrives I'll decide if using 1 1/4" conduit will pull easy enough. I can switch to 1 1/2" but I have a few odds and ends of 1 1/4"... some short sections for the vertical rise into the garage and a couple long sweep elbows.

I have a main breaker powering an outdoor irrigation pump at 200A service. I fed the Mobile Home Feeder down through conduit until it ran horizontally where I did not use any conduit and then back up into a conduit elbow up the exterior wall of my barn and then through conduit along the rafter of the lean-to shed roof through the wall of my barn and then down an LB and short conduit into my sub-panel.

I used a Square D Homeline brand sub-panel with the 100A main (remember its only fed by a 90A breaker) and then I wired everything off that (three additional smaller panels that are 40A or less). I would use 2" conduit with these big wires. I used 1.5" as it was "code", but bigger would have been better in the long run. I had to pay for help pulling the Mobile Home Feeder because I couldn't get it on my own and that added $500 to the project when if I had used bigger conduit (marginally more expensive), I would have not needed the hired help and I'd have been further ahead on my overall savings.

Going with a Sq D QO panel, probably this - QO12L125PGC. It's 125a with no main breaker. the 100a in the main panel will be enough.

I'll include the link if you'd like to see it. If you're using Mobile Home Feeder, it was $3.**/foot at Lowes, its stiff, and already color coded for hots, neutral, and ground.

Starts on page 3 with photos of my location, what I was working with, and my thought processes. I researched wiring/electrical for quite some time, asked a TON of questions here, and went slowly so I made sure I would be accurate and correct in my project. The invaluable help here saved me $4100 on that project alone.

Gonna take a look. I'll probably learn something. I have a lot to learn.

You can drive grounding rods with a fence post driver if your ground is soft enough. If not, you can bury them horizontally away from your structure (I believe you need 6' between rods FYI).

The glaciers were kind enough to deposit sand, many feet deep, on my property. No problems there.

Sub-Panel in Garage-Adding 220v for Table Saw and Air Compressor

A big benefit of running conduit underground as well is being able to get the trunch dug, lay the conduit then backfill. You can then deal with the wiring later. If you run it exposed underground, you have to leave the trench open until the wire is placed. The conduit also protects the wire in...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[mike93lx]

Going with a Sq D QO panel, probably this - QO12L125PGC. It's 125a with no main breaker. the 100a in the main panel will be enough.

what are you using for a local disconnect?

 

[WI/MI Border]

Perhaps a Kellems grip from the ceiling?

I had to Google that. We used to call that finger torture pullers.

 

[WI/MI Border]

what are you using for a local disconnect?

Hmmm? And that's why I'm here giving details of my plan : )

I'm thinking you are asking because that's a really good idea! I'll look at the subpanel offerings again. Maybe look at one with a main breaker.

 

[PCustoms]

Hmmm? And that's why I'm here giving details of my plan : )

I'm thinking you are asking because that's a really good idea! I'll look at the subpanel offerings again. Maybe look at one with a main breaker.

Unless the sub is within sight of the main (yours is in a different building, so it's not) or can be completely shut down in 6 throws, you need a local disconnect.

Hint: get a main panel

 

[mike93lx]

Hmmm? And that's why I'm here giving details of my plan : )

I'm thinking you are asking because that's a really good idea! I'll look at the subpanel offerings again. Maybe look at one with a main breaker.

yep, main breaker.

and get a bigger panel than you think you'll ever need.

200a, and at least 24 space. beside room for breakers, you'll just have more room to work

 

[PCustoms]

and get a bigger panel than you think you'll ever need.

200a, and at least 24 space. beside room for breakers, you'll just have more room to work

My main is a 40 space/80 circuit IIRC. Plenty of space available before I start adding twins, and I'm pretty much done wiring from there.

I only did a 10 space in my woodshop sub, and 4 got used up fast for the saw and AC. I can use twins in the remaining slots but was still agonizing if I should pull a circuit from there or go back to the main on last weekend. I decided eff it, if I fill the sub then I'll buy a larger one and swap it out. Wasn't worth the effort of pulling and extra 30' of wire through half finished ceiling.

For some dumb reason I fed it with #2 but only off a 60A breaker. Read it upside down? Wrong spot on shelf at orange store? Idk, hasn't tripped yet...

 

[Model A Fan]

1.5" would have been fine if you ran individual xhhw conductors and used a little bit of lubricant.

You also had 4 90's in the run. I would have made one an LB.

I have an LB right above the panel and an LB where the conduit pops out from the rafters of my barn area. If I didn't, we would not have been able to get the wire fed. Just too stiff for that diameter conduit and too many bends. It also would have been more than 180 degrees of bends which I think is against regs.

Hmmm? And that's why I'm here giving details of my plan : )

I'm thinking you are asking because that's a really good idea! I'll look at the subpanel offerings again. Maybe look at one with a main breaker.

This is my opinion, but the Homeline materials will be cheaper to buy and easier to use given their larger size. Sorta like Duplo vs Lego. Same concept, but one if easier to manipulate. The breakers are about half the cost or less if I recall. QO seems to be favored by electricians for their customers, but Homeline is easier on the budget for the homeowner. I'd opt for something with a main breaker at the top so you can kill the power without having to go all the way back in the house. The convenience and safety is really nice.

 

[mike93lx]

For some dumb reason I fed it with #2 but only off a 60A breaker. Read it upside down? Wrong spot on shelf at orange store? Idk, hasn't tripped yet...

60's a bunch cheaper than a 90a and its hard to use more this 60a with just one person working

 

[PCustoms]

This is my opinion, but the Homeline materials will be cheaper to buy and easier to use given their larger size. Sorta like Duplo vs Lego. Same concept, but one if easier to manipulate. The breakers are about half the cost or less if I recall. QO seems to be favored by electricians for their customers, but Homeline is easier on the budget for the homeowner. I'd opt for something with a main breaker at the top so you can kill the power without having to go all the way back in the house. The convenience and safety is really nice.

If he's feeding from the bottom flipping the panel may be better

 

[PCustoms]

60's a bunch cheaper than a 90a and its hard to use more this 60a with just one person working

Not running #2 SER would have been a lot cheaper...

No clue what happened in my brain between the shop and the store. This was years ago so it is what it is, but every time I kill that sub I shake my head at myself.

 

[mike93lx]

Not running #2 SER would have been a lot cheaper...

No clue what happened in my brain between the shop and the store. This was years ago so it is what it is, but every time I kill that sub I shake my head at myself.

i was trying to make you feel better, but fine!

wire was basically free years ago, so there's that

i have a huge roll of 12/3 nm-b that i convinced myself i needed for a 240v mini split. i've used about 3 feet since installing that mini and capping the neutral...

 

[sparky 1971]

Going with a Sq D QO panel, probably this - QO12L125PGC. It's 125a with no main breaker. the 100a in the main panel will be enough.

Hmmm? And that's why I'm here giving details of my plan : )

I'm thinking you are asking because that's a really good idea! I'll look at the subpanel offerings again. Maybe look at one with a main breaker.

Not only is it a good idea, it's a code requirement. A 100 amp main breaker panel sometimes costs less than a main lug.

 

[PCustoms]

i have a huge roll of 12/3 nm-b that i convinced myself i needed for a 240v mini split. i've used about 3 feet since installing that mini and capping the neutral...

I bought a whole roll of 14/3 for a 4-way switch loop (1 switch is an occupancy sensor) because it was the right way to do it.

Last summer I came up short on 14/2 wiring the new porch lights, looked up the price on a new roll and decided to use 14/3 and a few extra wire nuts...

 

[WI/MI Border]

Thanks. Everyone.

I watched a Schneider Elec video today that explained "some" differences between QO and Homeline. The the QO has tinned copper bus bars. Homeline has tinned aluminum. I learned from my Systems Control wiring days that quality tinning eliminates corrosion. However, if you snap breakers in and out that might compromise the tinning. Which might be problematic for tinned copper and aluminum. I don't plan on moving breakers, ever, but who knows.

I'm going to revisit the subpanel offerings and look for a panel with a 100a main.

 

[sparky 1971]

For some dumb reason I fed it with #2 but only off a 60A breaker. Read it upside down? Wrong spot on shelf at orange store? Idk, hasn't tripped yet...

You were future proofing it, a GJ specialty. And that 60 was the largest breaker HD had on the shelf that was code compliant. You went there for a 90 but I'm pretty sure they jump from 60 straight to 100.

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks. Everyone.

I watched a Schneider Elec video today that explained "some" differences between QO and Homeline. The the QO has tinned copper bus bars. Homeline has tinned aluminum. I learned from my Systems Control wiring days that quality tinning eliminates corrosion. However, if you snap breakers in and out that might compromise the tinning. Which might be problematic for tinned copper and aluminum. I don't plan on moving breakers, ever, but who knows.

I'm going to revisit the subpanel offerings and look for a panel with a 100a main.

My house has two homeline panels in it...absolutely no concerns

 

[PCustoms]

My house has two homeline panels in it...absolutely no concerns

3 here, and no concerns

 

[Model A Fan]

Thanks. Everyone.

I watched a Schneider Elec video today that explained "some" differences between QO and Homeline. The the QO has tinned copper bus bars. Homeline has tinned aluminum. I learned from my Systems Control wiring days that quality tinning eliminates corrosion. However, if you snap breakers in and out that might compromise the tinning. Which might be problematic for tinned copper and aluminum. I don't plan on moving breakers, ever, but who knows.

I'm going to revisit the subpanel offerings and look for a panel with a 100a main.

I would say that the chances of you inserting and removing breakers enough to wear the tinning and aluminum bars out is pretty low. You'll likely get it all wired in and then want to use your shop for whatever hobby you have instead of fiddling with the breakers constantly.

The 100A Homeline panel is really a great buy. At Home Depot/Lowes they have "kits" with some breakers in them to sweeten the deal. This one is $109.

 

[acer66]

My house has two homeline panels in it...absolutely no concerns

My house has two Eaton BR panels in it …. absolutely no concerns.*








*Before I started reading GJ that is now I have sleepless nights filled with concerns.

 

[WI/MI Border]

I would say that the chances of you inserting and removing breakers enough to wear the tinning and aluminum bars out is pretty low. You'll likely get it all wired in and then want to use your shop for whatever hobby you have instead of fiddling with the breakers constantly.

The 100A Homeline panel is really a great buy. At Home Depot/Lowes they have "kits" with some breakers in them to sweeten the deal. This one is $109.

That's just a couple dollars different from Menards. I am using Menards since our local HD doesn't have staff with electrical supplies knowledge. They did when they opened a few years ago. Elmer was a retired electrician and was super helpful. Now they only have people that stock the shelves and cut wire if needed. Menard's staff isn't hugely more experienced but they definitely take more interest in knowing their product... kind of like I was when I was the local Ace hardware electrical dept buyer; many decades ago when Ace was the only retail player in town. The Menards I go to is 50 miles away but worth the drive (HD is five miles). For instance, when I asked a young woman in the Menards electrical dept for an afci/gfci receptacle she knew what it was and where it was on the shelf. Maybe she had never installed one and might not be helpful with instructions but I can read. : )

 

[WI/MI Border]

My house has two Eaton BR panels in it …. absolutely no concerns.*








*Before I started reading GJ that is now I have sleepless nights filled with concerns.

I looked at those but for some reason I thought the Square D Homeline was more recognizable as a quality product (not that Siemens or Easton or GE of CH aren't). When I kick the bucket and my kids are selling the old man's property I feel most handy persons will recognize that.

 

[WI/MI Border]

So thanks to all the advice here I've got my eye on a Homeline load center with 100a main (24/48 spaces). I was considering using afci/gfci breakers in it but, WOW. My budget is a little lighter than that. So I found three afci/gfci receptacles for just a little more $ than one breaker. I did a little research and found they are reliable according to the info I found.

So I have planned three standard 20a circuits to split up my tool requirements. Those three will have the afci/gfci recep. in the first outlet, feeding the others downstream on that circuit. I don't have huge loads, just some woodworking tools. I've balanced the circuits so I am not running two higher load machines on the same circuit at the same time.

Lighting will be on standard 15a breakers/receptacles split into three 15a circuits and only powering a dozen 20 watt LED shop lights switched with five or six 15a switches.

I'm going to eventually go with a mini-split (12K BTU, 220v) which will be the only other load that I can think of right now. It will be on a double 15a breaker. I'm asking the manufacturer's chat line to help with the sizing. According to their calculator I am right on the borderline between their 12K vs 18K BTU units. We have central air our home and since I retired it has not been used (11 years). I am asking the Mfr if the recommendation for size skews toward AC capacity and if heating only will allow me to efficiently use the 12K model. Not really a big expense difference but I don't see me ever using the AC.

Whatdayathink?

 

[mike93lx]

Skip afci, it's snake oil. Gfci is effective and useful.

Get a homeline surge protector (fits in a two pole slot).

You can go larger than 100a, but it doesn't help anything as long as you can get a physically large enough panel for your needs and future expansion.

 

[sparky 1971]

Whatdayathink?

I think you're going to be sorry for using AFCI in your garage. It's not a code requirement, and to be honest, it's snake oil. I also think you have too many switches. Have one or two switches and let it be. You also don't need three circuits for the lights, but it's your shop.

 

[PCustoms]

So thanks to all the advice here I've got my eye on a Homeline load center with 100a main (24/48 spaces). I was considering using afci/gfci breakers in it but, WOW. My budget is a little lighter than that. So I found three afci/gfci receptacles for just a little more $ than one breaker. I did a little research and found they are reliable according to the info I found.

So I have planned three standard 20a circuits to split up my tool requirements. Those three will have the afci/gfci recep. in the first outlet, feeding the others downstream on that circuit. I don't have huge loads, just some woodworking tools. I've balanced the circuits so I am not running two higher load machines on the same circuit at the same time.

I would not bother with AFCI at all. GFCI is debatable, personally would not use unless outlets were near sink or outside.

Lighting will be on standard 15a breakers/receptacles split into three 15a circuits and only powering a dozen 20 watt LED shop lights switched with five or six 15a switches.

3 circuits for LED is likely overkill. 2 is good, as if one somehow trips you still have lights.

I'm going to eventually go with a mini-split (12K BTU, 220v) which will be the only other load that I can think of right now. It will be on a double 15a breaker. I'm asking the manufacturer's chat line to help with the sizing. According to their calculator I am right on the borderline between their 12K vs 18K BTU units. We have central air our home and since I retired it has not been used (11 years). I am asking the Mfr if the recommendation for size skews toward AC capacity and if heating only will allow me to efficiently use the 12K model. Not really a big expense difference but I don't see me ever using the AC.

Need AC data tag, but likely 12/2 will cover anything you want to run. You need a disconnect, just get one that takes fuses (required depending on nameplate), and 120v outlet outside.

 

[WI/MI Border]

Good advice folks. I was wondering about afci. Seems unnecessary if all my terminations are done well and I don't have worn out receptacles.

I thought GFCI was required in a garage. I won't likely be doing any wet work. No water supply to the garage at all.

I do have a new QO surge protector in my new home panel. Is it advisable to add another in the subpanel? I think I understand their value. In our old house we would lose electronic gadgets regularly. I'm assuming due to surges. Went through a few VCRs. I think new electronics might be more surge protected. We moved into this house in '91 and it had an add on whole house surge protector attached to the old QO panel. I'm guessing it did its job as we've never lost an electronic device in that time. So I had them add the new version to our new panel.

 

[sparky 1971]

Good advice folks. I was wondering about afci. Seems unnecessary if all my terminations are done well and I don't have worn out receptacles.

I thought GFCI was required in a garage. I won't likely be doing any wet work. No water supply to the garage at all.

GFCI is required, but you can do that without any AFCI.

I do have a new QO surge protector in my new home panel. Is it advisable to add another in the subpanel? I think I understand their value. In our old house we would lose electronic gadgets regularly. I'm assuming due to surges. Went through a few VCRs. I think new electronics might be more surge protected. We moved into this house in '91 and it had an add on whole house surge protector attached to the old QO panel. I'm guessing it did its job as we've never lost an electronic device in that time. So I had them add the new version to our new panel.

it certainly won't hurt anything. Get the kind that snaps into a two pole breaker space.

 

[PCustoms]

"required"

No inspection, you can use your own judgement. Is GFCI required in a commercial building, for example home depot or a Walmart?

How is standing in the middle of your dry workshop any different?

Personally I put them in a few spots (any exterior outlets, outlets close to doors and sink, and lighting because it was "required" and I didn't think about it). The rest of the shop isn't GFCI protected.

 

[WI/MI Border]

...
Need AC data tag, but likely 12/2 will cover anything you want to run. You need a disconnect, just get one that takes fuses (required depending on nameplate), and 120v outlet outside.

Thanks again...

The mini split mfr recommends a DP 15a breaker. I'll probably run 12awg but use a 15a breaker in the panel. I'm looking an AC disconnect for the AC. Those cheap plastic ones seem sketchy. Probably go with something a little better.

What do you recommend the 120v outlet for? Power tool use.

 

[PCustoms]

Thanks again...

The mini split mfr recommends a DP 15a breaker. I'll probably run 12awg but use a 15a breaker in the panel. I'm looking an AC disconnect for the AC. Those cheap plastic ones seem sketchy. Probably go with something a little better.

What mini split?

What do you recommend the 120v outlet for? Power tool use.

It's a code requirement to have an outlet within a specific distance (20'? ) of HVAC equipment.

 

[sparky 1971]

Thanks again...

The mini split mfr recommends a DP 15a breaker. I'll probably run 12awg but use a 15a breaker in the panel. I'm looking an AC disconnect for the AC. Those cheap plastic ones seem sketchy. Probably go with something a little better.

What do you recommend the 120v outlet for? Power tool use.

Get a disconnect with a GFCI built in. You will have to run both 240 and 120 to it, it costs quite a bit more than a standard disconnect, but you won't have to buy a box, WR receptacle, or in use cover as well as save a bunch of time and have a much cleaner install.


www.menards.com/main/electrical/circuit-protection-power-distribution/safety-switches-disconnects/eaton-60-amp-a-c-disconnect-with-20-amp-gfci-outlet/dpu222rgf20wtst/p-1444429559552-c-6435

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

"required"

No inspection, you can use your own judgement. Is GFCI required in a commercial building, for example home depot or a Walmart?

How is standing in the middle of your dry workshop any different?

Personally I put them in a few spots (any exterior outlets, outlets close to doors and sink, and lighting because it was "required" and I didn't think about it). The rest of the shop isn't GFCI protected.

They are required by code in a garage to protect stoopid people who walk around barefooted and standing in a puddle while plugging in a tool into a two wire 16 gauge worn out extension cord.

I have GFI protection on all my garage receptacles with the exception of my work bench receptacles that I use for "electrical experiments"…….. I have an industrial rated non conductive "switch board mat" in front of the work bench to stand on.

BTW! AFCI's are a joke and most people remove them because or false tripping or failure.

 

[sparky 1971]

It's a code requirement to have an outlet within a specific distance (20'? ) of HVAC equipment.

25', but 20' is even gooder.

 

[sparky 1971]

What do you recommend the 120v outlet for? Power tool use.

It's a requirement for two reasons: for a service tech to plug the vacuum pump to, and for a place to verify an electrical meter (tester) is working properly.

 

[WI/MI Border]

What mini split?

This one. https://www.menards.com/main/heatin...2rl/p-1642874294077681-c-1642874294161258.htm

 

[WI/MI Border]

...

Get a homeline surge protector (fits in a two pole slots

... The electrician installed a QO2175SB in the home main panel. According to Schneider web site that is a 25kA version. I guess that should be a good level for the garage.

 

[PCustoms]

25', but 20' is even gooder.

Lol, close enough. Mines probably about 18' on the deck around the corner. Seeing as how I installed it and if it dies it's probably not worth recharging, that worked for me.

 

[mike93lx]

... The electrician installed a QO2175SB in the home main panel. According to Schneider web site that is a 25kA version. I guess that should be a good level for the garage.

I installed two in each of my main panels, plus a Schneider in my pool panel, plus hvac units on each of three a/c's.

I like surge protectiom

 

[dave*99]

I have installed a few plug on surge protectors. I think the largest Square D is 50 kA. When building my current house I spoke to the manager of distribution at my POCO. He said go bigger. So I used this 80 kA unit wired to a breaker: