New Garage Project begins, Please comment with thoughts and Ideas

[kutza]

I have been lurking on the board for a short time. Reading and getting Ideas for our garage build. I have had some ideas and plans in my head for over a year, but now am ready to begin and follow thru with the build. As always, I am open to your thoughts, and experiences, please dont hold back at all.

The building I have decided on is a www.MiracleTruss.com trusses only.

• Size: 30x30, with 12ft eaves
• floor: Concrete footer with 6in slab
• Doors: (2) 8x10 garage doors, (1) 3x7 entry
• Windows: (2) 3x4, (2) 5x6
• Roof: Shingles ( match the house), on top of plywood
• Sides: Vinyl siding (match extention on house)

The reason for choosing this building style is because of a few reasons.

• Cost of construction
• ease of construction ( personal abilities)
• Inside ceiling height (2 Post lift in the future)
• Ability to match this to the rest of the house, total height wise while getting the required ceiling hgt.

I plan on getting all the permits myself from the county, and doing as much as possible myself, with hired help and friends.
Concrete will be contracted out!

This is what I have been quoted, and payments for the order shall be going out the week of 12-10-06. So I can get my engineered plans to submit to the county.
30x30x12 TRUSSES ONLY
Trusses and Hardware
Freight to York County VA
Certified Engineered Blueprints
$9k

I do plan on the following once the main structure is up, and closed in.
Drywalling
Electrical
2 Post car lift !!
No water

Okay, enough of all this. Lets start the discussions, comments, and ideas.
I need to know how to plan to the future addons now, before the the floor is poured. Also anythin obvious I missed. I have read on some of the really detailed MiracleTruss builds on this site (you know how you are), and have see the quality of the finished projects, and hope to achieve similar results.
thanks for reading, and commenting.
Kutza
Pictures of site, and drawing to follow.

 

[hitek]

floor drain/s?

 

[rbcsaver]

I have been lurking on the board for a short time. Reading and getting Ideas for our garage build. I have had some ideas and plans in my head for over a year, but now am ready to begin and follow thru with the build.....

Yeah, huge floor drains like my mason put in, not those useless HomeLoweCheapo round ones.

Don't know your location, put in a vapor barrier and foam insulation....the latter was an after-thought and too late for me, unfortunately. It's cold here in NE PA.
I have a 4 post lift because I store AND work on the cars. I went with a 4 post because in storage the suspension should NOT hang, but a 4 post makes it harder to work on the tires, brakes, etc. Think this part through also depending upon your plans to work on vs store the vehicles.

regards,
Steve

 

[kutza]

Drain.... I will not have sewer or water hooked up. I know I should but that will be cutting into too much $$$ out of the budget. Maybe put it all in, and leave it capped off, for future. Vapor barrier is definate, and insulation on the ceiling and walls before drywall.

 

[bmwpower]

When you say 9k for trusses, I assume you mean all the lumber? I consider trusses being the roof only.

 

[BoCRon]

Kutza,
Being probably one of the few "girls" in this group, I don't have much too offer on the structure issue except to say it sounds like a great plan thus far.
Just an FYI for you, it might help if you put your city and state in your User CP, it will help people to know where you're from, what weather conditons you deal with, etc when they have advice to offer and it's nice to just be able to see it at the top of your posts as opposed to searching through the posts.
Just off the top of my head what are your plans for heat/air? It may not seem like a priority at this stage, but you may kick yourself later when you are trying to solve that issue.
I can't wait to see your project as it progresses.
Annette

 

[gahi]

Bigger, you'll have room for 2-3 cars as is.

 

[kutza]

BoCron:
Thanks, I did the city changes. Also I will have an A/C- heat unit in the building eventually. Actually I have a friend in that business, and he will be Hooking me up with one of his take out units.
In the process of building, i will be pulling on all favors owed back, and all the deals I can get my hands on.

Gahi: can not go bigger, there wont be anymore yard left. Actually It shall be plenty for my needs. I dont plan on have more than one long term project in there.

BMWPower:
Trusses, actually they are the steel frame/trusses only. I will have to source my own roofing, siding, and wood, concrete, door, windows.

 

[gahi]

I usually have a few projects, an then need room to work also. That being said, my shop is about 9' by 30'. I cant get much done in there, too small.

 

[dreamingmuscle]

Okay, enough of all this. Lets start the discussions, comments, and ideas./QUOTE]


Build it in my back yard

Glen
________
Ford V-8 history

 

[kutza]

Quick update on Contractors.
One was supposed to have gotten me a quote this past Friday for the same garage in a stick built, no calls or quote.
Another Contractor was supposed to come by view the site and Metal Building plans to give me a price on the concrete and Metal frame assembly. Again a no call or no show.
This is why I am tending to lean towards the metal garage more and more, because I can still build it with a rented machine, on my own.

dreamingmuscle: you welcome to drive down, and help with assembly. I would even $ ya.

 

[Ign]

Yeah, rough the plumbing in, cap it and pour over it - - that is if your county requires a separate permit and separate inspections for plumbing. They don't need to know about it, but it's there for you later down the road.

I wouldn't drywall it but that's me. Not durable enough. Steel paneling will hold up much better and is more easily repaired if you do damage it. Goes up way faster, much lighter, and possibly even cheaper depending upon material cost(s) in your area.

Do insulate of course and don't use the kraft-backed stuff, it's just kindling when sparks hit it.

 

[sdurgala]

Use 4,000 psi concrete. When you use 4,000 psi, the finished product will be "much" smoother (It will look like glass, that's if they know what there doing ) and it with stand temp. changes "much" better (less chance of cracking).

P.S. I just had my 28 X 40 slab poured using 4,000 psi and it looks like glass.

 

[blue77]

Use 4,000 psi concrete. When you use 4,000 psi, the finished product will be "much" smoother (It will look like glass, that's if they know what there doing ) and it with stand temp. changes "much" better (less chance of cracking).

P.S. I just had my 28 X 40 slab poured using 4,000 psi and it looks like glass.

4k PSI concrete is required at least at the footer to your lifts, if you can afford it, I would do the whole slab that way

 

[kutza]

12/13/06 Update
Deposit given, certified engineered plans are in the works, that I will submit for my permits.
Rec' d the floor/concrete plans, so now I can get a dead on Quote from the concrete guys, If I can get them to come out to do that.
Miracle Truss sales guy (scott), has been very helpful with providing all the answers and A1 service. I now am in the waiting stage, waiting on plans, and then the permits to be approved. Schedualed the end of Feb 07, for delivery, but maybe sooner, if all plans are aproved earlier.

And thanks to all the comments.
4k PSI, is what i had planned on, didnt consider the Fiber Crete, will look into it next few days. Will that affect and Epoxy coatings later?
I am taking notes, so keep the comments flowing, that way others planning will get the info too.
thanks

 

[rodsnhawgs]

Think long-term... even though you may not be using it now, you may be at some future time:

*rough plumb the water anyway
*pre-wire cat5 for networking
*pre-wire coax for cable TV and/or internet
*pre-wire for telephone
*pre-wire for security
*pre-wire for stereo
*pre-wire for intercom to the house
*run 2-3 extra 1" conduits out of the top of the breaker box thru the top plate for any future circuits

NOW is the time to do these things - once the walls are covered up, it gets much harder to do!

 

[boiler7904]

Drain.... I will not have sewer or water hooked up. I know I should but that will be cutting into too much $$$ out of the budget. Maybe put it all in, and leave it capped off, for future. Vapor barrier is definate, and insulation on the ceiling and walls before drywall.

You can do that with water, but not with floor drains. You won't get an approved pre-slab inspection if they can't see that the drain ties into something - daylight may count depending on your local AHJ.

 

[boiler7904]

Think long-term... even though you may not be using it now, you may be at some future time:

*rough plumb the water anyway
*pre-wire cat5 for networking
*pre-wire coax for cable TV and/or internet
*pre-wire for telephone
*pre-wire for security
*pre-wire for stereo
*pre-wire for intercom to the house
*run 2-3 extra 1" conduits out of the top of the breaker box thru the top plate for any future circuits

NOW is the time to do these things - once the walls are covered up, it gets much harder to do!

AMEN. My homebuilder insulated and drywalled (fire-taped only) half of my garage during construction of the house and garage. I'm thinking of taking down all of the gyp board in the garage to run electric and be able to do a good job of insulating.

 

[Kent in KC]

Don't let the concrete guy put sealer on your floor if you plan to epoxy it. Elec outlets 52" off the floor (so a sheet of plywood, etc. won't block them). Consider one wide door instead of two (easier to get cars in and out). Don't neglect the beer faucet (with an ergo handle so's ya don't get carpal).

I put a steel 14" I-beam in my overhead for hoisting things (and cause it looks so bad up there).

 

[tintoptexan]

I made a similar request last year on another BBS. I will share their comments with you, Joe

From: flatheadfreddy
Sent: 11/11/2004 4:02 PM
Joe, I am definitely not an expert on shop layout but I have made a few booboos and learned a few hard lessons. I put my welders close to the breaker box, but used a long enough extension cord to reach all corners of the shop. My air compressor is outside, but sheltered from the weather (also close to the breaker box). I didn't put any windows in the shop (except in the roll up doors) so my stuff would "stay put". I use my attic space for storage, (put some lights and an attic fan up there). I keep my "mess making stuff" (drill press, etc) close by the rollup doors so I can keep the floor clean. The top half of my walls are pegboard, if you don't like where you first hang something you can easily move it around. I would use plenty of insulation, seal & paint everything up (including the floors), plenty of light and make sure you can get a way out if you catch the place on fire. Did I mention fire extinguishers? Hope this helps some, I'm sure there are a gazillion ways to do it.
Freddy


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Message 3 of 9 in Discussion


From: Bored&Stroked
Sent: 11/11/2004 5:26 PM
Couple things to add:
1) Make sure you set it up for water, gas and a 200 amp 220 volt main service.
2) Add a water heater - you'll be glad you did.
3) Setup the concrete floor with floor drains -- to help you wash the floors and not have to push all the water around with a broom.
4) Make sure you think about high-amp and high-voltage equipment --> like air compressors, arc/mig welders, etc. It is always best to have too much power and a bunch of open breakers than not. Wire everything with a dedicated ground wire and make sure your wires can handle the load of the equipment you plan to use.
5) If you're in a cold area, then you might want to section the building off into a well insulated work area (that you don't mind paying a heating bill for) and a general storage area for cars, parts, etc.. In the work area, use lots of insulation, cap the walls with something strong like plywood or chipboard and put plenty of power outlets, etc..
6) If you have multiple areas, then make a big sliding door that is wide enough to pull a car into the heated area - yet can be slid shut to conserve heat.
7) Build a loft area that you can use to store all those dang parts (like fenders, hoods, etc. -- that don't weigh a ton, but take up lots of space).
8) Maybe have a steel beam to support the loft area and potentially second as a place to hang a chain hoist -- can come in real handy.
9) Poor a thick concrete floor -- designed to handle the weight of what you're going to be putting in it.
10). When they poor the floor, you might want to include a couple large U-bolts on either end or sides of the floor -- where you can hook a come-a-long to winch heavy items (like pallets) along the floor. Can also be handy to secure a frame or something you're working on. Can also be used to chain/lock something down that you'd prefer to not "run away".
11) Consider putting in a half-bath as well as a wash basin -- makes it easy to clean up.
12) Run air compressor lines behind the wall caps -- with quick connects in obvious places.
13) Setup a heater with a digital setup thermostat -- can program the heat, times of day, etc..
14) When you wire the place, also run TV cable as well as CAT 5 network wire. If you're into TV or maybe a computer system, then you'll have all the wire built into the walls and ready to plug into.
15) Fridge and beer cooler . . . to aid in all "project" work.
16) Phone
17) Bed . . . cause if you're in the "Dog House" you just may want to sleep there. And after all . . . if you do all of the above, it might be the place you'll want to sleep!

Best of luck . . . hopefully my "dream" setup helps you along. Dale


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Message 4 of 9 in Discussion


From: rodnut1
Sent: 11/11/2004 5:52 PM
I can tell you what I've put in my shop, as well as what I wish I had put in my shop:

If you live in a rainy area, be certain to install a heavy-duty vapor barrier under the concrete before it's poured. There's nothing worse than a damp concrete shop floor! Add lots of 110V electrical outlets (they're cheap) as well as a couple of 220V outlets. A few overhead reel-type drop lights and extention cords will come in very handy, as well as a large reel air hose containing at least enough hose to reach outside the doors. Don't forget a phone line. Run some 1/2" copper lines for several compressed air stations at your benches, etc. with drops at each station to drain off condensation. I use radiator petcocks for this. As for windows, it depends on how isolated your are. They are nice to have. If your design permits, some skylights are a real bonus, and will definately brighten up the interior during the day. At least one nice, long, heavy-duty work bench w/ large machinist vise at one end. I like at least one large wood topped bench for working on items that would be damaged knocking around on a metal bench. I built mine from 2x4's on edge, glued and bolted together with long lengths of 1/2" all-thread. I also put several Craftsman cabinets with multiple drawers under the benches for storage. You just can't ever have enough storage for tools ,etc. Lots of wall shelving for parts strorage, and a nice cabinet with hanging plastic bins in the body and on the door interior for fasteners and other storage. Try and keep all dirty work (cutting, welding, grinding) in one area, as far from the clean work/assembly areas as possible. A slop sink with hot and cold water is a definate plus. One of those compact instant hot water heaters would work good, and take up minimal space. Where I live I need heat as well. There are different ways to go about this. I have a forced air upright propane heater on one wall and a 125 gallon tank to run it. One of my friends has hot water heating in the concrete floor of his shop, which is REALLY NICE! Warm feet, quiet and no dust/air blowing around like with my heater. If I ever do another shop, this is what I'll go with for sure. The drawback is the length of time it takes to warm the shop. If you're not using it every day, it can be a problem. Well, that's a few more things to think about. I'm sure you'll be getting plenty more as well...


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Message 5 of 9 in Discussion


From: AlbuqF-1
Sent: 11/11/2004 6:56 PM
I'm in the midst of planning my shop/garage, too; good advice from Dale and Rodnut above, here are a few comments:

-- Codes in my area won't allow for floor drains in a garage (possibility of gas/oil going down the sewer) unlesss you do some pretty extreme stuff ($$$). Not a great idea on a septic system either, if you have landscaping near the field. Instead I will slope the floor to the big doors.
-- I was going for 100 amp service, for a 3 HP air compressor and a 220 amp/220V arc welder, the usual lights, etc. Check with your utility for the break points on Demand Charges and service capacity. (I have underground service, which is pricey)
-- don't forget ceiling outlets for electric garage door openers
-- A set of long welding cables (stingers) is a lot cheaper than multiple 50 amp 220v outlets (even if you're wiring it yourself) and allows you to weld out on the apron too
-- I am going to have a fair number of skylights and windows, and put bars over the inside to address the thievery concerns, you can never have too much light
-- I saw a setup like Rodnut's friend's with radiant floor heating, using solar heat. With the price of fuels, makes sense. It also costs no more to use all the time. I would worry if I thought I'd ever have to drill thru the slab for some reason, tho.
-- Don't forget outside lighting (possibly on motion detector)
-- If you have a choice, don't have the main doors facing the street, it's just like advertising your stuff to thieves; and if you can face it south, you won't have permanent ice on the apron if you're in the great north.

-- Ross



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Message 6 of 9 in Discussion


From: AlbuqF-1
Sent: 11/11/2004 7:00 PM
PS, I also checked on waste oil heaters (old crankcase oil) for heating both my house and garage. People will give you the stuff just to get rid of it. Unfortunately, it's way too much $$ for the units to be attractive for a home/garage, although if you are at 2,000 sf maybe it would pay.
-- Ross


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Message 7 of 9 in Discussion


From: RetiredShack
Sent: 11/11/2004 7:03 PM
There is a software program available on Amazon.com titled Instant Shed and Shop Design.I read the info on it and it may be of help in your planning.Sells for $9.99 + shipping.
Chuck


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From: AlbuqF-1
Sent: 11/11/2004 8:16 PM
I drew this up on a program called 3DHome, in less than an hour. Any similar program is worth the money 20 times over!
-- Ross

Final Garage.doc

 

[tintoptexan]

Here's a photo of the shop. Hope the attachment works. Joe

 

[neblinc]

Don't think this was mentioned, but my electrician recomended running PVC conduit under the slab to all my outlets, that way the only wires I would have in the ceiling would be a few outlets and the lights. I did that in my shop.

Prety sure I have pics in my link below.

Randy

 

[boiler7904]

Don't think this was mentioned, but my electrician recomended running PVC conduit under the slab to all my outlets, that way the only wires I would have in the ceiling would be a few outlets and the lights. I did that in my shop.

Prety sure I have pics in my link below.

Randy

From a remodeling standpoint, overhead conduit (metal or pvc) is easier to access and modify in the future if a major renovation takes place.

 

[kutza]

Great comments, still taking notes on all.
Question to people who built their own metal truss buildings.
How heavy are the truss pieces, What should I plan on?, I even considered buying a forklift if I find one for $1k.

 

[Junkman]

No one mentioned it, but I would put reinforcing wire in the concrete prior to pouring. It only takes about a half hour before the pour to set the wire and get ready for the pour. If you were to get any cracks in the concrete, the wire will hold it together, rather than having the crack open. When I did my floor, 20' x 40', the wire cost was under $100, and the concrete installer didn't charge any extra to put it in place. I would also consider making certain that you have a full 4" thick floor. When I had mine poured, they concrete at the walls was 4" and tapered into the center at 6" thick. As for the drain, if you can sneak it in, it is nice, but most jurisdictions want oil separators if you have a floor drain in a garage. I was stopped on my last garage addition, but I do have it in my original garage. I rarely use it though, since I can squeegee the water out the door faster than pushing it to the floor drain. I would put a few PVC pipes under the floor and have 90 degree sweeps coming up at each end. Use 2" grey electrical PVC for this. That way, you can snake any wire or air line to the other side of the garage any time you want. Sure makes it easier than going up and over. Also, if you get driving rains in your area, ask the concrete installer, if he can set the door opening concrete 1/2" below the garage floor. That way, when the overhead door closes, it is just slightly below the interior floor level and makes a tighter seal. Also, use torsion spring overhead doors. Much easier to open than with the old fashioned 4' long door springs.

 

[kutza]

My engineered plans came in yesterday. Now I just need to fill out the rest of the forms and submit.

My concrete guy has vanished on me, so I am in search of another.

Any advice on sub-panel size? I have a Hobart welder and Plasma both 110v, but would like to have a pair of outlets for 220, and one from above for the lift.

Also, the wire reinforcement in the concrete, could I buy the premade (welded) panels that look like a grid, and double layer them with a few inch in between. Honestly I would not mind spending extra, and have the floor be overkill, since I have noticed the ground at the site likes to get really wet and stay that way after heavy rains. I hope the vapor barrier will be enough, is there anything else I could before the pour?
Thanks to all the people who are adding to this.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Don't think this was mentioned, but my electrician recomended running PVC conduit under the slab to all my outlets, that way the only wires I would have in the ceiling would be a few outlets and the lights. I did that in my shop.

PVC conduit in concrete is (believe it or not) is classified by the NEC as "wet location" so be sure and use a wire that is rated for use in wet locations (NEC 310.8(C)). Note that THHN wire, very commonly used in conduit is NOT wet location rated. Before you use it verify all of its ratings with NEC table 310.13 for wet location use. (most wires have mutiple ratings marked on them)

Charles

 

[1320stang]

A single layer of wire is fine. Have you considered radient floor heating? Even if you don't do it now, you can run the tubing for it if you change your mind in the future. I plan on running it when I pour my floor even though I won't hook it up just yet.

 

[Kevin54]

No one mentioned it, but I would put reinforcing wire in the concrete prior to pouring. It only takes about a half hour before the pour to set the wire and get ready for the pour. If you were to get any cracks in the concrete, the wire will hold it together, rather than having the crack open.

Wire will let the concrete crack and seperate. Just not as much as not having it. To control cracks you have to have control joints cut in. To keep a slab from heaving and leaving a step between the two either add reinforcing wire, or better yet add rebar to the slab. Rebar will keep a slab from pulling apart and will keep one from raising up or down from the other in the event that something like that would happen. To help also insure that the slab will remain stable is to have the base (stone fill) tamped solid so no settling occurs. If you do it yourself, add some gravel, then tamp, add more then tamp until you get to the proper height. The reason contractors do not do this is that it cuts into their time and profits. They would rather dump the gravel, spread it out, then pour the concrete. A well prepped base will go a long way in the life of the concrete.

Kevin

 

[kbs2244]

I think the assembly sequence for a Miracle Truss building is to bolt together each arch flat and the lift it up into place.
If so, with walls as high as yours, a lift truck is amost a must. I have seen a gin pole and winch setup, but it took a long time. A lift truck to get the arch upright and then a manlift for the guy waiting to connect them would make it go fast.
It would come in handy for the roofing and sideing, too.

 

[kutza]

I think the assembly sequence for a Miracle Truss building is to bolt together each arch flat and the lift it up into place.
If so, with walls as high as yours, a lift truck is amost a must. I have seen a gin pole and winch setup, but it took a long time. A lift truck to get the arch upright and then a manlift for the guy waiting to connect them would make it go fast.
It would come in handy for the roofing and sideing, too.

You are so Correct. That was al the reason I needed to go buy some really big equipment. I have been searching places for such equipment on deal, that I could sell and recoup my investment after the job.

 

[kutza]

9/1/2007, finally got a contractor to begin the concrete.
Day one, dig footers, and roots out of the way.

 

[kutza]

Day #2 comleted. Short day. Could not source enough rebar to complete the footers, and the anchor bolts either, will pick them up Tuesday after Labor Day. Plan on inspection Wed. Pour Thursday.

Got the ground graded, and fill in dirt compacted, and Plastic.

Next two pics show location of anchor Bolts and templates.

Oh! forgot they found one foot long Black snake, and a 6in long black snake with a yellow strip around the head. Both deep in the footer depths.

 

[Don T]

I'll be following this one because I think the Web Steel Building, 40 X 56 with a 29 X 21 shed room, I'm putting up is almost the same as your Miracle Truss. I got mine as a package with all the wood, roofing, siding, and windows and doors for about 2-1/2 times the cost of yours.

We used a Boom Truck to install all the columns, took about three hours and after they were braced with a few girts attached we installed the trusses in about another 3 hours and yes the trusses need to be pre-assembled before being installed.

Good Luck with your build.

 

[Bib Overalls]

I rented staging from Home Depot when I put up my Adams Truss building. Walls are 10'. I pulled the bents up with a rope, one leg and one truss. I tied the first half off to the staging and pulled up the second and bolted the center. Friend on the ground started the nuts at the bottom and together we squared them up and secured them with braces.

10' high and 30' wide. The max for this kind of assembly. If I was going 12' high I would use a truck with a boom or something similar.

The staging was cheap. I went two units high plus casters and safety railings. I was able to set all of my roof purlins from it and frame the end walls as well.

Good luck to you.

 

[carcruse]

Quote: "4k PSI concrete is required at least at the footer to your lifts, if you can afford it, I would do the whole slab that way"

Not true. While 4k would be better, Bendpak and other companies say only 3k concrete is needed.

 

[kutza]

well, I have asked for 4000psi, fiber-crete. How can chk my contractor i pouring it? Does fiber crete, show fibers?

 

[ScottC]

Yes - some of the fiber will be showing even after it is finished and the floor will look a little "fuzzy". That's why it is recommended to torch the floor before paint or epoxy.

 

[Passat]

It looks great!

Post some pictures from today and let me know when you need a hand

 

[boiler7904]

well, I have asked for 4000psi, fiber-crete. How can chk my contractor i pouring it? Does fiber crete, show fibers?

Ask for the load tickets from each concrete truck that comes on site. It will list the mix design and any special admixes that were added. If you don't get originals, you at least want to see copies.