Too much light or just enough? help

[thetastelingers]

I am laying out my garage lighting plan.
In my current garage, I have to use drop down lights to work on something. I do not want to deal with that in the new garage.
Have I went overboard?
Here are the lights I have found and am planning on using unless someone states a reason why I shouldn't. 2'X4' Troffers with 4- T8 lamps
http://www.warehouse-lighting.com/s...-4-lamp-T8-universal-ballast-120-277volt.aspx

Here is the layout.


I just want some other input.

Thanks!

 

[thetastelingers]

Forgot to add the type of ceiling and height.


Center of ceiling to be about 12' +/- depending on concrete finish height.

 

[nehog]

Wire the lights in bays, not strings. That is divide the building into three (equal) parts, and have each section fully lit with a switch. That way you can light one bay (or two) without wasting energy lighting space you are not using. This is what I did, and it works very well. BTW, I have florescent for my basic lighting, and HID (metal halide) for bright lighting when doing work that needs visibility. Right now as you show it you will need all lights on to light up one end (or the middle.)

 

[Magneto]

I'd have to agree with Peter. Also a good rule of thumb (gov't bldg standard) is for every 100 sq. ft. an 8ft strip light.

 

[Magneto]

BTW, this looks like a great build.

 

[thetastelingers]

Thanks guys! I didn't even think about wiring them in bays.
I will talk to the electrician and make that change.

 

[2ManyProjects]

I am laying out my garage lighting plan.
In my current garage, I have to use drop down lights to work on something. I do not want to deal with that in the new garage.
Have I went overboard?

I doubt it. As long as you put sufficient thought into both the layout and switching arrangements, it's pretty difficult to go far enough into "overkill" territory to be a real problem. That said, I do think your plan could use some improvement. A few semi-coherent thoughts...

Here are the lights I have found and am planning on using unless someone states a reason why I shouldn't. 2'X4' Troffers with 4- T8 lamps
http://www.warehouse-lighting.com/s...-4-lamp-T8-universal-ballast-120-277volt.aspx

I can't be certain from the info on that page; but these appear to be designed for drop-ceiling applications, such as commonly found in offices. Have you considered EXACTLY how you would go about mounting these?

Here is the layout.

I'm mostly with "nehog" here: While the row-by-row switching you show in that drawing would be very simple to wire up, it would be FAR from ideal from a usability standpoint. OTOH, I would also NOT suggest simply going on a "bay by bay" basis, with each bay being an "all or nothing" proposition, as I would want somewhat more "granular" control than that would provide. Beyond that, I'd have to put more thought into exactly how I would assign each fixture as you've currently got them arranged; but then, I would probably also change the layout significantly, so that's something of a moot point.

Forgot to add the type of ceiling and height.

{image deleted}

Center of ceiling to be about 12' +/- depending on concrete finish height.

In which case, I'm guesstimating that the ceiling will be about nine feet high where it meets the front & back walls? Notably, that's high enough to be useful as a mounting point for light fixtures.

To make any sort of specific detailed recommendation on the layout, we really ought to know more about how you plan to use this space. For example, what sort of work will you be doing in there? How often? What, if any, major stationary power tools (saws, planers, lathes, mills, etc.) will you have, and where will they be located? Is this a "home hobbyist" garage/workshop, or are you running a semi-serious business out of this shop? What will those two "bump out" spaces be used for? Also, how do you plan to finish this space? Smooth drywall painted bright white will be IMMENSELY more efficient, lighting-wise, than leaving the ceiling and walls "open" (or even tacking up unfinished OSB or similar).

All that said, here is an initial W.A.G.:

I would be tempted to use several continuous strips of twin-tube fixtures, running length-wise in the main space. Two of these runs would be rather near (1.5-2 feet away, at most) where the ceiling meets the front & back walls. Another two runs would be up near the breaks between the angled and flat portions of the ceiling (but probably still on the angled part). I might also add some shorter strips on the flat part of the ceiling, but running in the opposite direction and placed directly between each garage door bay (and, maybe, in the corresponding positions at each end of the garage). I would likely use four-foot fixtures throughout, in order to provide more granularity for switching.

Speaking of switching, I would break each of the long-ways runs into AT LEAST two separately switched banks (possibly several more, if I also wanted to control things on a bay-by-bay basis), in order to provide some control over the balance between brightness and power consumption. Those short inter-bay runs could also each be separately switched, if desired; but this is probably somewhat less critical (as I'm envisioning it, these would in effect be your "walk through" lights anyway; so odds are, you'd want them all on or all off at any given moment). Finally, I would want at least SOME switching capability (particularly for whatever becomes the "walk through" lights) located immediately adjacent to each and every possible entry point. Your photo shows a service door just in front of (as viewed by the camera) the bump-out area at the upper left of your plan; but you are NOT showing any switches there. Also, depending in part on the envisioned usage, you might want additional switching near each vehicle door. All in all, given the potential complexity of the switching, it might very well be worthwhile going with an Insteon system, using something like these for your primary lighting controls:

http://www.smarthome.com/2487S/Keyp...pad-with-On-Off-Switch-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx

http://www.smarthome.com/2477S/Swit...-Remote-Control-Switch-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx

http://www.smarthome.com/2475S2/INSTEON-In-LineLinc-On-Off-Module-Non-dimming-w-Sense/p.aspx

Part of the beauty of such a system is that each switch (or keypad button) can be set up to control a particular task-oriented "lighting scene", as opposed to direct conrol of specific fixtures. Each "scene" can include as many fixtures as needed/desired (including, for example, having one button for "EVERYTHING on/off"); and there can be as much "overlap" as needed to implement said "scenes". IOW, any given fixture could be a member of several different scenes, as needed or desired; and once you get it all set up, you no longer need to worry about which switch controls which fixture.

This might even prove to be less expensive, overall, than running all the wiring needed to do conventional three-way/four-way switching. But even if not, the convenience factor would more than justify the cost, IMCO. And as a bonus, it would pave the way for painlessly automating at least the exterior lighting, using either (or both) of the following two devices:

http://www.smarthome.com/71928/Minotaur-Engineering-LS2-Light-Dusk-Dawn-Sensor/p.aspx

http://www.smarthome.com/2842-222/INSTEON-Wireless-Motion-Sensor/p.aspx

OK, moving on...

I can't really predict what I'd do in those "bump out" spaces, without knowing more about their intended purpose. I also have no idea what will be required in the way of task lighting, without knowing where the workbenches, stationary tools, etc., will be located.

Also, as shown in your drawing, you are apparently planning on conventional overhead garage doors. Pretty much regardless of how you lay out the lighting in that space, these will be a PITA from the standpoint of blocking a major chunk of your main area lighting (and creating big honkin' shadows in the process) any time the doors are open. You might want to consider "Carriage House" style swing-out doors, which would side-step this issue nicely. But if that is not feasible, then you should also keep this "blocking factor" in mind when deciding the switching arrangements; there is little or no point in running lights whose output will be near-completely blocked.

I note that you are showing both a "House Panel" and a "Garage Panel" in the same space. So I presume this is an attached residential garage? If so, you don't necessarily NEED a separate sub-panel for the garage, as long as you have sufficient breaker slots in your main panel to support all the branch circuits involved. That said, using a sub-panel is OK, if you still want to go that way.

One other thing, not directly related to the electrical... While "N. Georgia" is (or at least "can be", if we're not up in the hills) a fairly warm climate as compared to more northerly locations, I'd still want make sure that I had LOTS of rigid foam insulation under that slab when you pour it, with a proper thermal break all around the perimeter; AND I would almost certainly go ahead and embed the PEX tubing in the concrete for a future hydronic heating system, even if I wasn't planning to install such right away. This is one of those "now or never" things; and it is far better to have and not need than to need and not have. So do give it serious consideration before rejecting the idea.

In a similar vein, Georgia can also get da*ned HOT in the Summer. So what are you planning to do for cooling?

 

[NUTTSGT]

Wire the lights in bays, not strings. That is divide the building into three (equal) parts, and have each section fully lit with a switch. That way you can light one bay (or two) without wasting energy lighting space you are not using. This is what I did, and it works very well. BTW, I have florescent for my basic lighting, and HID (metal halide) for bright lighting when doing work that needs visibility. Right now as you show it you will need all lights on to light up one end (or the middle.)

I would tend to agree to most of it. I'd put them 4 in a bay (corners) and the middle section do a left/right (top/bottom of drawing) of three lights. The end section and back section on their own like you have.

Why ? It's similar to what I did in my garage. Your middle string of lights provide great light down the side of a vehicle when you work on it. Sometimes that light is not needed, other times it's the only lights I turn on instead of all the lights.

Let's say you're changing oil in your car, those middle lights aren't really needed, no reason to have them on. Next you're wiring something on the interior of the car, you need all the light, so you have the bay lights (4 corners) and the one of the middle section lights.

If you go out to the garage in the evening after dark, you need a few lights on to grab something, turn on half the middle string, 3 lights instead of 6 in the bay.

Just my thoughts, btw, have you started a build thread on this place ? It looks nice.

 

[Blk88GT]

I'd have to agree with Peter. Also a good rule of thumb (gov't bldg standard) is for every 100 sq. ft. an 8ft strip light.

I doubled this recommendation and am VERY glad I did. You can't have too much light.

I have 40 8ft T8 fixtures (160 lamps) in 2000sqft and LOVE it.

 

[bczygan]

Here's the deal with lighting.

Most people do one of two things.

They either use too few lights, spaced too far apart, and under light the space, and more importantly, leave dark spots. Or they go with the BRIGHT AS HELL option. Think of gas stations with that carpet of lights above, where at night it is really brighter than sunlight. Or retail stores that are so bright, that there are no shadows anywhere.

You can do the overly lit option by just putting lots of lights everywhere and painting all surfaces a light color, or white, so light is bounced to every corner and recess.

The problem is that this option, if you spend any time there, causes eyestrain.

The proper, and better solution, is to design your lighting as a system. This requires careful analysis and some trial and error. That's why it is easier to go overboard, and why most people just do.

If you want a properly designed system you will need at least 2 types of lighting, ambient and task.

Ambient light is that overall light that lets you navigate in the space. These are the ceiling lights that set an even overall light for the entire space.

Task lighting is the individual lights, or groups of lights, focused on a specific task. Things like desk lamps, lights at a particular machine etc.

The right selection, combination and location of these types of lights can make your workspace easy to work in.

There is one more type of lighting, accent. You use this to do things like lighting a photo on the wall or a trophy on a shelf.

 

[thetastelingers]

Wow THANK you for all the information. I will answer in RED throughout your quote.

I doubt it. As long as you put sufficient thought into both the layout and switching arrangements, it's pretty difficult to go far enough into "overkill" territory to be a real problem. That said, I do think your plan could use some improvement. A few semi-coherent thoughts...



I can't be certain from the info on that page; but these appear to be designed for drop-ceiling applications, such as commonly found in offices. Have you considered EXACTLY how you would go about mounting these?
I have mounted some of these in garage trusses before, but did not use drywall, but when I mounted them, I noticed there was a gap that could have been taken up by drywall.


I'm mostly with "nehog" here: While the row-by-row switching you show in that drawing would be very simple to wire up, it would be FAR from ideal from a usability standpoint. OTOH, I would also NOT suggest simply going on a "bay by bay" basis, with each bay being an "all or nothing" proposition, as I would want somewhat more "granular" control than that would provide. Beyond that, I'd have to put more thought into exactly how I would assign each fixture as you've currently got them arranged; but then, I would probably also change the layout significantly, so that's something of a moot point.



In which case, I'm guesstimating that the ceiling will be about nine feet high where it meets the front & back walls? Notably, that's high enough to be useful as a mounting point for light fixtures.

To make any sort of specific detailed recommendation on the layout, we really ought to know more about how you plan to use this space. For example, what sort of work will you be doing in there? How often? What, if any, major stationary power tools (saws, planers, lathes, mills, etc.) will you have, and where will they be located? Is this a "home hobbyist" garage/workshop, or are you running a semi-serious business out of this shop? What will those two "bump out" spaces be used for? Also, how do you plan to finish this space? Smooth drywall painted bright white will be IMMENSELY more efficient, lighting-wise, than leaving the ceiling and walls "open" (or even tacking up unfinished OSB or similar).
This space will be used daily as a workshop or vehicle garage. Yes on the home hobbyist garage/workshop. No commercial business. The "bump out" closest to the house will have the walls lined with workbenches and cabinets. I plan on under cabinet lighting. The Far "bump out" will have woodworking equipment as well as other machinery. (table saw, drill press, press, etc) I am planning drop down lighting over the items. Drywall ceiling, OSB walls painted white at top with a hint of color below 48".
All that said, here is an initial W.A.G.:

I would be tempted to use several continuous strips of twin-tube fixtures, running length-wise in the main space. Two of these runs would be rather near (1.5-2 feet away, at most) where the ceiling meets the front & back walls. Another two runs would be up near the breaks between the angled and flat portions of the ceiling (but probably still on the angled part). I might also add some shorter strips on the flat part of the ceiling, but running in the opposite direction and placed directly between each garage door bay (and, maybe, in the corresponding positions at each end of the garage). I would likely use four-foot fixtures throughout, in order to provide more granularity for switching.
Thanks for the suggestions. I will lay this out and see how it looks and figure out the lumens for the space.

Speaking of switching, I would break each of the long-ways runs into AT LEAST two separately switched banks (possibly several more, if I also wanted to control things on a bay-by-bay basis), in order to provide some control over the balance between brightness and power consumption. Those short inter-bay runs could also each be separately switched, if desired; but this is probably somewhat less critical (as I'm envisioning it, these would in effect be your "walk through" lights anyway; so odds are, you'd want them all on or all off at any given moment). Finally, I would want at least SOME switching capability (particularly for whatever becomes the "walk through" lights) located immediately adjacent to each and every possible entry point. Your photo shows a service door just in front of (as viewed by the camera) the bump-out area at the upper left of your plan; but you are NOT showing any switches there. Also, depending in part on the envisioned usage, you might want additional switching near each vehicle door. All in all, given the potential complexity of the switching, it might very well be worthwhile going with an Insteon system, using something like these for your primary lighting controls:
That service door will not be regularly used, so I am not concerned with switches at that position.
As far as switches at each vehicle door, I haven't thought about that. I will put more thought into those positions.

http:www.smarthome.com/2487S/Keypad...pad-with-On-Off-Switch-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx

http:www.smarthome.com/2477S/SwitchLinc-On-Off-INSTEON-Remote-Control-Switch-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx

http:www.smarthome.com/2475S2/INSTEON-In-LineLinc-On-Off-Module-Non-dimming-w-Sense/p.aspx

Part of the beauty of such a system is that each switch (or keypad button) can be set up to control a particular task-oriented "lighting scene", as opposed to direct conrol of specific fixtures. Each "scene" can include as many fixtures as needed/desired (including, for example, having one button for "EVERYTHING on/off"); and there can be as much "overlap" as needed to implement said "scenes". IOW, any given fixture could be a member of several different scenes, as needed or desired; and once you get it all set up, you no longer need to worry about which switch controls which fixture.

This might even prove to be less expensive, overall, than running all the wiring needed to do conventional three-way/four-way switching. But even if not, the convenience factor would more than justify the cost, IMCO. And as a bonus, it would pave the way for painlessly automating at least the exterior lighting, using either (or both) of the following two devices:

http:www.smarthome.com/71928/Minotaur-Engineering-LS2-Light-Dusk-Dawn-Sensor/p.aspx

http:www.smarthome.com/2842-222/INSTEON-Wireless-Motion-Sensor/p.aspx

OK, moving on...

I can't really predict what I'd do in those "bump out" spaces, without knowing more about their intended purpose. I also have no idea what will be required in the way of task lighting, without knowing where the workbenches, stationary tools, etc., will be located.

Also, as shown in your drawing, you are apparently planning on conventional overhead garage doors. Pretty much regardless of how you lay out the lighting in that space, these will be a PITA from the standpoint of blocking a major chunk of your main area lighting (and creating big honkin' shadows in the process) any time the doors are open. You might want to consider "Carriage House" style swing-out doors, which would side-step this issue nicely. But if that is not feasible, then you should also keep this "blocking factor" in mind when deciding the switching arrangements; there is little or no point in running lights whose output will be near-completely blocked.
We will in fact be going with the conventional overhead doors. I had thought of roll up doors, but those are out of the question on a garage attached to the house. I am afraid the Carriage house wouldn't be feasible for us either. Thanks for the thought of putting them on a separate switch. I'll consider that.
I note that you are showing both a "House Panel" and a "Garage Panel" in the same space. So I presume this is an attached residential garage? If so, you don't necessarily NEED a separate sub-panel for the garage, as long as you have sufficient breaker slots in your main panel to support all the branch circuits involved. That said, using a sub-panel is OK, if you still want to go that way.
I like having the sub panel just in case I want to add anything in the future. There will be a climbing wall at the far end of the garage next to the house and that area is vaulted all the way to the ceiling. Pulling wires from the main panel would be a major PITA. That is the reason for the sub panel.
One other thing, not directly related to the electrical... While "N. Georgia" is (or at least "can be", if we're not up in the hills) a fairly warm climate as compared to more northerly locations, I'd still want make sure that I had LOTS of rigid foam insulation under that slab when you pour it, with a proper thermal break all around the perimeter; AND I would almost certainly go ahead and embed the PEX tubing in the concrete for a future hydronic heating system, even if I wasn't planning to install such right away. This is one of those "now or never" things; and it is far better to have and not need than to need and not have. So do give it serious consideration before rejecting the idea.

In a similar vein, Georgia can also get da*ned HOT in the Summer. So what are you planning to do for cooling?

 

[thetastelingers]

This house is actually in Tennessee North of Chattanooga. I had thought of the hydronic heating, but we are stretching the budget on this house as it is and I will actually be adding things to the garage after we move in to keep some of the costs down.
I talked to the heat and air contractor about cooling the space and he said he could bump up the unit on that side of the house by 1/2 ton and put vents to the garage. I like this idea, but am unsure that it will be ideal.
I have an 80,000 BTU propane heater for heat.

Thank you for spending the time to reply. It gives me a LOT to think about while weighing the costs for everything. Most of this may have to be added in the future as I can.

 

[thetastelingers]

Here's the deal with lighting.

Most people do one of two things.

They either use too few lights, spaced too far apart, and under light the space, and more importantly, leave dark spots. Or they go with the BRIGHT AS HELL option. Think of gas stations with that carpet of lights above, where at night it is really brighter than sunlight. Or retail stores that are so bright, that there are no shadows anywhere.

You can do the overly lit option by just putting lots of lights everywhere and painting all surfaces a light color, or white, so light is bounced to every corner and recess.

The problem is that this option, if you spend any time there, causes eyestrain.

The proper, and better solution, is to design your lighting as a system. This requires careful analysis and some trial and error. That's why it is easier to go overboard, and why most people just do.

If you want a properly designed system you will need at least 2 types of lighting, ambient and task.

Ambient light is that overall light that lets you navigate in the space. These are the ceiling lights that set an even overall light for the entire space.

Task lighting is the individual lights, or groups of lights, focused on a specific task. Things like desk lamps, lights at a particular machine etc.

The right selection, combination and location of these types of lights can make your workspace easy to work in.

There is one more type of lighting, accent. You use this to do things like lighting a photo on the wall or a trophy on a shelf.

Now I need a lighting designer! LOL
Luckily I have an electrical engineer to ask to help me with this.

 

[thetastelingers]

I would tend to agree to most of it. I'd put them 4 in a bay (corners) and the middle section do a left/right (top/bottom of drawing) of three lights. The end section and back section on their own like you have.

Why ? It's similar to what I did in my garage. Your middle string of lights provide great light down the side of a vehicle when you work on it. Sometimes that light is not needed, other times it's the only lights I turn on instead of all the lights.

Let's say you're changing oil in your car, those middle lights aren't really needed, no reason to have them on. Next you're wiring something on the interior of the car, you need all the light, so you have the bay lights (4 corners) and the one of the middle section lights.

If you go out to the garage in the evening after dark, you need a few lights on to grab something, turn on half the middle string, 3 lights instead of 6 in the bay.

Just my thoughts, btw, have you started a build thread on this place ? It looks nice.

Thank you for the comments. Hopefully I can figure a lighting schematic out before I have to order something.

Here is the build thread.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212204

 

[2ManyProjects]

Wow THANK you for all the information. I will answer in RED throughout your quote.

You're welcome. But be aware, that reply technique makes effectively quoting you in this reply a horrendous PITA.

This space will be used daily as a workshop or vehicle garage. Yes on the home hobbyist garage/workshop. No commercial business. The "bump out" closest to the house will have the walls lined with workbenches and cabinets. I plan on under cabinet lighting.

You will also need some general area lighting in that space; but given truly effective task lighting, almost certainly not as much as you have currently shown.

The Far "bump out" will have woodworking equipment as well as other machinery. (table saw, drill press, press, etc) I am planning drop down lighting over the items. Drywall ceiling, OSB walls painted white at top with a hint of color below 48".

Again, task lighting will be key in this area. You PROBABLY ought to look at this area as a completely separate space/project, lighting-wise; and do a detailed layout of exactly which machine will live where before making any major decisions.

This house is actually in Tennessee North of Chattanooga.

So you are probably somewhat more up into "hill country", perhaps on the Cumberland Plateau? Still not a brutally cold area; but I'd wager that it gets pretty chilly mid-Winter.

I had thought of the hydronic heating, but we are stretching the budget on this house as it is and I will actually be adding things to the garage after we move in to keep some of the costs down.

I strongly urge you to re-think this, NOW. While the cost to put in the insulation and PEX tubing during the initial construction is not exactly trivial, it will sure seem that way by comparison to the cost to retrofit it (do you REALLY want to tear up and re-pour your slab?). Even if this means, due to budget constraints, deferring some other highly desirable part of the building project which can be more cost-effectively retrofitted (such as, for example, that "climbing wall", or even most of the electrical stuff we've just been discussing), it will very likely be well worth that temporary sacrifice, in the long run.

I talked to the heat and air contractor about cooling the space and he said he could bump up the unit on that side of the house by 1/2 ton and put vents to the garage. I like this idea, but am unsure that it will be ideal.

I can't say that this strikes me as a wonderful idea.

First, I VERY seriously doubt that a 1/2 ton (6,000 BTU) of additional capacity will be anywhere near enough to effectively cool that large a space -- especially on a hot summer day, when you will most want it. (This goes double if "working in there" implies periodically opening any of those big overhead doors, or bringing in an already hot car to work on it.)

Secondly, even if you "upsize" the main A/C system enough to handle this, it means that EITHER you will be cooling the garage all the time, even when you're not using it, or your A/C system will wind up being significantly oversized vis-a-vis the requirements of the house itself. The former is an obvious waste of (expen$ive) energy. The latter is also somewhat wasteful; but more importantly, it can lead to "short cycling", which means the home's interior will get cold before it gets dry, leading to that clammy "over-airconditioned" feeling (not to mention such fun stuff as mold, mildew...).

I have an alternate suggestion:

A. - Let the house's HVAC system be the house's HVAC system. Size it for THAT job, and that job alone. FWIW, I do like multi-stage furnaces and multi-speed A/C compressor/condenser units; so if there is sufficient wiggle room in the budget to accommodate these, so much the better. In addition to just being plain nicer to live with, they will at least nearly pay for themselves in the long run, presuming "normal" energy costs.

B. - While the walls are still "open" and this is easy/cheap to do, frame in at least two (maybe three or four, considering the various "machinery spaces") suitable spots ready to accommodate through-wall mounting of so-called "window" air conditioner units. I would likely also at least rough-in 240V branch circuits to each of these locations, since they will necessarily be on exterior walls (which will presumably get well-insulated, at which point fishing the wires will be a PITA). You can put off the purchase and installation of the A/C units themselves until your checkbook has recovered somewhat.

I have an 80,000 BTU propane heater for heat.

Do you mean for the house as a whole? Or dedicated to the garage?

I suspect the former; but either way, forced hot air is by no means the best way to heat a garage/workshop. By comparison to hydronic heat, you wind up putting much of the energy into the wrong things -- primarily the air, much of which tends to rise up to the ceiling (where, obviously, it doesn't do you any good) or leak out before it can actually do all that much toward heating up the "stuff" in the garage. OTOH, the relatively high thermal mass of in-floor hydronic makes it near-ideal for the sort of heating you will usually want to do in such a space -- particularly, maintaining a relatively low (but still safely above freezing) temperature, almost regardless of the vagarities of opening/closing garage doors, etc.

In addition, forced-air heat tends to blow dust & dirt EVERYWHERE, making clean-up much more of a PITA than it needs to be. You did mention woodworking... That inevitably means sawdust; and even the very best dust-collection systems are only so effective. And if this is indeed a "shared with the house" system, that means clogging up your furnace filters MUCH more frequently than would otherwise be the case.

Thank you for spending the time to reply. It gives me a LOT to think about while weighing the costs for everything. Most of this may have to be added in the future as I can.

Again, you're welcome. But this is also why it is most important to put the "NOW" money into those things which would be prohibitively (or at least comparatively) expensive to do later.

 

[thetastelingers]

You're welcome. But be aware, that reply technique makes effectively quoting you in this reply a horrendous PITA.



You will also need some general area lighting in that space; but given truly effective task lighting, almost certainly not as much as you have currently shown.



Again, task lighting will be key in this area. You PROBABLY ought to look at this area as a completely separate space/project, lighting-wise; and do a detailed layout of exactly which machine will live where before making any major decisions.



So you are probably somewhat more up into "hill country", perhaps on the Cumberland Plateau? Still not a brutally cold area; but I'd wager that it gets pretty chilly mid-Winter.



I strongly urge you to re-think this, NOW. While the cost to put in the insulation and PEX tubing during the initial construction is not exactly trivial, it will sure seem that way by comparison to the cost to retrofit it (do you REALLY want to tear up and re-pour your slab?). Even if this means, due to budget constraints, deferring some other highly desirable part of the building project which can be more cost-effectively retrofitted (such as, for example, that "climbing wall", or even most of the electrical stuff we've just been discussing), it will very likely be well worth that temporary sacrifice, in the long run.



I can't say that this strikes me as a wonderful idea.

First, I VERY seriously doubt that a 1/2 ton (6,000 BTU) of additional capacity will be anywhere near enough to effectively cool that large a space -- especially on a hot summer day, when you will most want it. (This goes double if "working in there" implies periodically opening any of those big overhead doors, or bringing in an already hot car to work on it.)

Secondly, even if you "upsize" the main A/C system enough to handle this, it means that EITHER you will be cooling the garage all the time, even when you're not using it, or your A/C system will wind up being significantly oversized vis-a-vis the requirements of the house itself. The former is an obvious waste of (expen$ive) energy. The latter is also somewhat wasteful; but more importantly, it can lead to "short cycling", which means the home's interior will get cold before it gets dry, leading to that clammy "over-airconditioned" feeling (not to mention such fun stuff as mold, mildew...).

I have an alternate suggestion:

A. - Let the house's HVAC system be the house's HVAC system. Size it for THAT job, and that job alone. FWIW, I do like multi-stage furnaces and multi-speed A/C compressor/condenser units; so if there is sufficient wiggle room in the budget to accommodate these, so much the better. In addition to just being plain nicer to live with, they will at least nearly pay for themselves in the long run, presuming "normal" energy costs.

B. - While the walls are still "open" and this is easy/cheap to do, frame in at least two (maybe three or four, considering the various "machinery spaces") suitable spots ready to accommodate through-wall mounting of so-called "window" air conditioner units. I would likely also at least rough-in 240V branch circuits to each of these locations, since they will necessarily be on exterior walls (which will presumably get well-insulated, at which point fishing the wires will be a PITA). You can put off the purchase and installation of the A/C units themselves until your checkbook has recovered somewhat.



Do you mean for the house as a whole? Or dedicated to the garage?

I suspect the former; but either way, forced hot air is by no means the best way to heat a garage/workshop. By comparison to hydronic heat, you wind up putting much of the energy into the wrong things -- primarily the air, much of which tends to rise up to the ceiling (where, obviously, it doesn't do you any good) or leak out before it can actually do all that much toward heating up the "stuff" in the garage. OTOH, the relatively high thermal mass of in-floor hydronic makes it near-ideal for the sort of heating you will usually want to do in such a space -- particularly, maintaining a relatively low (but still safely above freezing) temperature, almost regardless of the vagarities of opening/closing garage doors, etc.

In addition, forced-air heat tends to blow dust & dirt EVERYWHERE, making clean-up much more of a PITA than it needs to be. You did mention woodworking... That inevitably means sawdust; and even the very best dust-collection systems are only so effective. And if this is indeed a "shared with the house" system, that means clogging up your furnace filters MUCH more frequently than would otherwise be the case.



Again, you're welcome. But this is also why it is most important to put the "NOW" money into those things which would be prohibitively (or at least comparatively) expensive to do later.

This house is on a mountain at 1800' ASL

Replying regularly, because I do not want to cause you more work since you are helping out so much.

Going to call the Contractor and get a price for laying the Hydronic piping out just to see if it can be fit in.

I will also call the HVAC contractor and let him know I will deal with A/C for the garage separately.

The walls will be unfinished for me to put in whatever I want after we move in. The only thing being finished is the ceiling.

 

[2ManyProjects]

This house is on a mountain at 1800' ASL

Sounds absolutely lovely! I'm even a little jealous. But this also means that heating that space IS going to be an issue.

Replying regularly, because I do not want to cause you more work since you are helping out so much.

Thanks. But here is a tip on quoting in replies on this (and similar) WWW-based "Forums"...

First, while definitely not "necessary", it's easiest to use a separate text editor (I use "Kate" under Linux; programs such as "Notepad" or "UltraEdit" would be OK under Windows; I'm sure Macs have something similar available; in any event, you want a simple plain-vanilla TEXT EDITOR, not a "Word Processor"); then "cut & paste" from the edit window on the web page, do your editing and spell-checking in the stand-alone editor, then copy & paste back into the Fourm's edit window when you're done. NOTE: I've just made this sound a LOT more complicated & difficult than it really is; but hopefully, you get the idea.

Second, keep a bit of "boilerplate" handy, possibly in a second editor "tab" if your editor-of-choice supports that. Among these snippets of text, have some pre-formed "tags" ready to copy & paste at will. Each time you want to END a quoted section, use a "[ / Q U O T E ]" tag; each time you want to resume quoting, use a "[ Q U O T E ]" tag. (Note that I have double-spaced these example tags, so that they will get treated as real text by the Forum software, and actually show up in this post, rather than being interpreted and acted upon; normally, there are no spaces in the tags.)

Then just trim out whatever sections of the original message you AREN'T replying to, as you go.

Going to call the Contractor and get a price for laying the Hydronic piping out just to see if it can be fit in.

Also call two or three HVAC contractors directly, preferably ones who explicitly advertise in-floor hydronic systems in your area. If this is something your builder does not regularly deal with, he might not have the best contacts for this (somewhat specialized) sub-specialty. He (or his "go to" HVAC sub) might also be sufficiently "disinterested" in doing something outside his "comfort zone" as to deliberately give you a rather inflated quote. If nothing else, having the independent quotes in hand will act as a "sanity check" on whatever the builder tells you.

I will also call the HVAC contractor and let him know I will deal with A/C for the garage separately.

Good move. I forgot to mention, for the sake of perspective, that 6,000 BTU is normally about what one would typically use for one small-ish bedroom. No way on this planet it's going to be anywhere near enough for that large garage/shop, even presuming "cool mountain air" (Ha!).

Also, looking at your sketch again, I'm thinking three such "rough ins" for window A/C units: One in each of those "bump-out" sections, plus one more in the wall that runs between them. However, you (or your other half) might also have some concerns as to how this might look from the street (presuming the street is near enough for that to be an issue). If that's the case, I can think of two possible ways to address it: First, some creative use of wood lattice (or similar) can go a long way toward hiding the A/C units sticking out from the walls, without unduly impeding air flow. Alternately, you could go with so-called "mini-split" systems instead of Window A/C units; but these tend to be more expensive, (including to install), you still need to find a place to hide compressor/condenser units, and they don't offer any air-exchange capability (which I, for one, prefer to have). Failing ALL of this, you're left looking at a separate conventional ducted HVAC system for the garage. That can be done now or later; but at least the ductwork would be much easier "now".

The walls will be unfinished for me to put in whatever I want after we move in. The only thing being finished is the ceiling.

Then I presume that at least the ceiling WILL be insulated, from the get-go. This might somewhat complicate installing lights and running wiring later, particularly if it is blown-in cellulose, or (especially) sprayed-in foam. If you think you can get through the first Winter without that insulation, it might still be best to leave the ceiling unfinished, for now. With neither heat nor A/C in the garage yet, this won't have a serious impact on your fuel bills; but it WILL get da*ned cold in there overnight. Something to think about, anyway.

Good luck. Keep us posted. And pictures are ALWAYS good.

 

[bczygan]

Another trick when wiring light fixtures is to wire them so you can just turn on half the lamps (Bulbs) in a fixture at a time. In these florescent's, that means installing two ballasts in each 2 lamp fixture.
You could use this to create a partial lighting scheme.

There are also dimm-able fixtures.

 

[Steevo]

I think your plan looks good. You can not have too much light.
You may want to consider which fixtures are on each switch for lighting "zones", but otherwise I think you have a good layout.

 

[jvitez]

I'll offer my 2 cents. While zoning light is a good idea, like many things too much of a good thing is just too much. Would you really only use 1 of 3 banks of light, or 2 of 3, instead of 3 out of 3 for example? How many different types of projects would you be planning that would need a varying amount of light? Yes you can have too many switches!

I completely agree with the advice to have one switch to turn on a few lights for the "grab and go" scenario. You don't want to turn on every fluorescent fixture for 1 minute just to get something out of a car. The solution is a few old style porcelain lampholders with screw in bulbs. I'd put 4 in the main garage and 1 or two in the alcove. Put good old 100 watt incandescent bulbs in, as their instant on and lack of lumen reduction in cold weather characteristics are perfect for 1 minute starts, or you can use any other type of medium screw base bulb, ie halogens, CFL's or LED's. Then put your linear fluorescents on one switch for the main garage.

I put my L-shaped garage on 3 switches, thinking I might just have the larger bay partially lit for various things. Nope. I hate dark shadows in corners. So I either switch on all 3 together, or each arm of the "L" by itself. I could have easily put each arm on it's own switch. Live and learn.

 

[thetastelingers]

Thanks everyone for the posts. I am rethinking every aspect of it now.
No help from the Electrical Engineer though. He is MIA.

Latest idea is to go with 8' T8 fixtures.

How about this? Changed the two strips in the middle on separate switches.

 

[nehog]

Well, IMHO same problem: to get good lighting in the end bay, you have to turn on all three bays of lights. However, I'm just talking based on how I setup my garage/shop, which is bay oriented. It works well, and I don't waste power lighting up a space that is 40 to 50 ft away from where I'm working.

 

[thetastelingers]

Well, IMHO same problem: to get good lighting in the end bay, you have to turn on all three bays of lights. However, I'm just talking based on how I setup my garage/shop, which is bay oriented. It works well, and I don't waste power lighting up a space that is 40 to 50 ft away from where I'm working.

Oops. yeah. I guess I like the entire place to be lit up at once. I don't want to look across the garage at a dark space. Is that wrong?

Guess more switches are inevitable unless I look more into those select switches like 2manyprojects suggested.
Sounds more and more like it needs to go that route.
I need to find out if I can wire every light to that switch and just choose which light or group of lights to start up at a time.

 

[oldtinsmith]

Here's my shop. I use 100W compact florescence "daylight" bulbs on 4 switches. I use perimeter lighting in each bay (I use my shop for mostly automobiles) and I like it ALOT! Each switch operates lights in all three bays. Switch 1 is lighting just to navigate through the shop. Switches 1&2 are for simple tasks. Switches 1, 2&3 are for working on my cars. Switches 1, 2, 3&4 are used for sheet metal layout, cutting and forming, and welding (after a lot of cleaning/picking up!!!). ...A friend of mine painted his upper walls a light yellow. His idea was for the reflected light from his 100W CFL's would create a warmer more natural light. It does work, but, to me it doesn't look like a shop (light yellow upper walls and medium brown lower side walls). Maybe it's something that has to grow on you?
Here's a few bad pictures of my (cluttered)shop. ...Oh, my walls are painted a very light grey on the upper walls and a medium grey on the lower walls.






Doug

 

[2ManyProjects]

Thanks everyone for the posts. I am rethinking every aspect of it now.

That's OK. Making changes "on paper" is infinitely cheaper than making changes in the field. So NOW is the time to second-guess EVERYTHING.

No help from the Electrical Engineer though. He is MIA.

In all candor, that's probably not a huge loss. An EE could be useful from a technical point of view on a large/complex project; but probably not so much for making value judgements with regard to usability, etc.

Latest idea is to go with 8' T8 fixtures.

I still strongly prefer twin-tube four-footers, in most cases. If you shop carefully, overall costs are comparable; and it gives you that much more flexibility in terms of placement, switching, etc.

How about this? Changed the two strips in the middle on separate switches.

Well, the overall layout seems to be something of an improvement over your original, in large part because you have pretty well obviated the overhead door blocking problem; but the switching still needs considerable work, IMCO.

In addition to the "all or nothing" problem mentioned by "nehog", your only control points for the main-area lighting are more than 50 feet apart, which will likely prove less than convenient in practice. There are any number of possible scenarios where you will want more and closer control locations. For example, suppose you're working in the wood shop, and are called into the house for some reason. Then suddenly you decide to STAY inside for awhile. You now have to trek all the way back to the woodshop in order to douse those lights, then again back into the house.

Or... You (or your wife) are returning from the grocery store, and pull into that middle bay. The garage door opener probably triggers SOME lighting (if only it's lame built-in bulb); but that's going to time out in short order. You/she open the trunk to find that several of the bags have spilled, and you now need to spend some time sorting it all out and putting everything back into the bags before schlepping it into the house. Would it not be preferable to have a switch/keypad RIGHT THERE that can be immediately used to turn on enough light to really see what you're doing? AND be able to douse it again as you pass through the threshold from the garage to the house, on the last bag-toting trip?

These are just two figments of my imagination, off the top of my head. I'm sure that there are many more possibilities, some of which will likely be impossible to predict until you've actually lived in the house for awhile. The point is, you want to maintain as much flexibility as possible in the initial design/installation, so that these "to be discovered" scenarios can be easily accommodated as they crop up.

Seriously, given all the possible permutations which COULD come into play in a shop/garage this large and this complex, I want to beat the drum again for using Insteon controls. I have no doubt that, particularly in this case, it could significantly simplify the switching arrangements; and it might actually turn out to be LESS expensive to install as compared to implementing enough "conventional" switching to have as much flexibility as you'd ideally want. And trust me, once it is installed and set up, it would be MUCH simpler/easier to live with on a day-to-day basis: No more having to throw a half-dozen or more switches to turn on (or off) all the lights you might want to run at any given moment; and more importantly, no more remembering which half-dozen switches you need to throw! :

As for installation simplicity, consider: Running one 14/2 cable to a single-gang box wherever you want to have control will allow you to put in one of those six-button keypads at that location. And that keypad can be set up to control ANYTHING (actually, EIGHT "anythings", in any combination, presuming you add the 8-button change kit http://www.smarthome.com/2401WH8/8-Button-Change-Kit-for-KeypadLinc-White/p.aspx). Compare that to a whole row of conventional switches AND the convoluted wiring running all over the place needed to implement traditional 3-way or 4-way switching. Optionally, at the main (i.e., most commonly used) entry points, make it a two-gang box, to support two such keypads; but notably, that same single run of 14/2 will still suffice. Simple, cheap, and effective. At least most of the loads themselves would actually run off those in-line control boxes I previously cited; but if you want, a few fixtures (such as perhaps your "walk through" lights) could be directly powered from the Keypads and/or Decora-style SwitchLincs. And because most of this would effectively be simple "in-line" wiring, installation would be significantly simpler and you would likely use LESS materials overall.

Part of the point here is, the vast majority of Insteon products are designed to be retrofitted into conventionally-wired homes, and will work just fine in such applications; but if you KNOW going in that you're going to use Insteon, you can greatly simplify that underlying wiring, gaining both usability AND cost-effectiveness in the process. Please don't dismiss this idea until you've put some really serious thought into it. I think if you do put sufficient thought into it, you'll "see the light", so to speak.

A few other semi-random thoughts...

I suspect that you still have too much general area lighting in that upper-left bump-out, at least presuming that you really do have GOOD task/under-cabinet lighting in there. But as long as you break up the switching so that you don't HAVE TO turn it all on at once, it's probably not a disaster.

"All or nothing" switching is probably OK in the wood shop; but even here, it wouldn't hurt to break it up into two banks, MAYBE running off two different breakers. I'm thinking specifically of the scenario where one breaker has tripped or is shut down for maintenance; in which case "all or nothing" leaves you with "nothing". I'm less certain about the AMOUNT of general overhead lighting you're showing; this will depend greatly on the task lighting you wind up with.

I note that you have added ceiling fans in two of the garage bays. Why not the third? And either way, what about switching/control for these devices?

You're showing two banks of exterior lighting. I suspect that the ones over the garage doors are primarily decorative, and the others are probably floods of some sort. Presuming that guess is correct, I think I'd want more such flood lighting than you are currently showing -- at least one dual-bulb fixture at each "corner" (be that an "inside" or "outside" corner) of the exterior walls. Ditto for each corner of the house itself.

And again, the switching/control for these lights is sorely lacking. For the over-the-door lights, you're showing only one switch location, and in a rather inconvenient spot, at that. Do you REALLY want to have to walk out there to turn them on and off each day? As for the security/flood lights, you aren't showing the switching/control arrangements at all. I would want ALL of the floods controllable by one-press "panic buttons" located at SEVERAL locations throughout the house and garage, in addition to some form of automated control (probably based on motion sensing; but you could also tie it into a real security system, if such will exist). Need I mention that this is an ideal application for Insteon?

Obviously, this whole sub-topic needs some work. And note, particularly for the "decorative" exterior lighting, some degree of routine automation (be that timer-based, or dusk/dawn, or some combination of the two) is almost de rigeur. Again, Insteon will help here.

If I understand your sketch correctly, you're now showing additional outlets in the wood shop area and the third garage bay. That's fine, as far as it goes (even if every four feet is well into "overkill" territory; I'd probably go with a two-gang box every 8-10 feet or so); but outlets in the other two garage bays are now rather conspicuously missing. While I would not suggest that you need as many outlets in those areas (which are presumably intended mostly for routine car-parking) as in the "working" bay, those bays probably ought to be served by SOME outlets, just to cover contingencies (say, plugging in a vacuum cleaner, or a portable battery charger, or...?).

Finally, while it might appear that I am "nit picking", please don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm deliberately "playing Devil's Advocate" here, in an effort to ensure that nothing gets overlooked, and that your plans get as refined as possible before being carved in granite. You ARE "getting there", so to speak. So chin up, and press on...

 

[NUTTSGT]

In the bump out with the workbenches, I'd recommend putting lights over the benches. If you put the lights in the center, you will be creating a shadow at the bench while working. That work area may require a few extra lights as compared to the rest of the garage.

I'd suggest you lay out your benches on paper and place your lighting to match that area, probably a good thing to do in the wood working area too.

 

[dipan]

That's nearly a million lumens! How many square feet in total? I don't see a scale on the drawing...

 

[2ManyProjects]

Oops. yeah. I guess I like the entire place to be lit up at once. I don't want to look across the garage at a dark space. Is that wrong?

Only in the sense that it is WAY politically incorrect -- and the fact that you may well change your mind after getting your first few electric bills!

The thing is, turning on everything (even with a single button-press) when that's what you want to do is just fine; but being FORCED to turn on everything, even if/when you don't need or want to, is a huge potential problem.

Guess more switches are inevitable unless I look more into those select switches like 2manyprojects suggested.
Sounds more and more like it needs to go that route.

I am gratified to see your thinking turning in that direction.

I need to find out if I can wire every light to that switch and just choose which light or group of lights to start up at a time.

Well... In a sense, yes. But NOT literally.

The thing to understand about an Insteon system is, the device providing the control interface (i.e.,the buttons) is NOT necessarily the same device which is physically connected to (and thus actually controlling) the load(s). That distinction is vitally important if you're ever going to get your head wrapped around how an Insteon system works, and thus the myriad possibilities of what it can accomplish.

So no, you would not "wire every light to that switch", in a physical sense; but in effect, once everything is installed and set up, that's how it would seem to work.

To explain a bit more fully...

Any Insteon "SwitchLinc" or "KeypadLinc" device is actually at least TWO devices in one (three, in the case of "Dual Band" models, which add RF capability so that wireless keypads can also be integrated into the system). The first of these devices is the control interface, which consists of the paddle/buttons and some underlying electronics which, in response to button-presses, send coded "commands" over the powerline (and via RF, for "Dual Band" devices). These same underlying electronics also receive and retransmit similar commands initiated by other devices, to further propagate the command signals throughout the system. The second device is a relay or dimmer circuit (as appropriate; for your fluorescent loads, you want the relay versions), which actually connects to a load (such as a light fixture). These two devices are essentially independent of each other; and you do NOT necessarily need to have ANY load physically connected to the "SwitchLinc" or "KeypadLinc" device in order for it to be functional. (Yes, typically -- and IIRC, by default -- both of these internal devices are "linked" via their software addressing, so that, for example, a given "SwitchLinc"'s paddle does effectively control any load that is physically connected to that device; but AFAIK this is NOT necessary, which is the key point here.) And obviously, with a multi-button device such as the KeypadLinc, you can have a multitude of different NON-CONNECTED devices "controlled" by that same keypad.

The buttonless "In-LineLinc" device I cited previously http://www.smarthome.com/2475S2/INSTEON-In-LineLinc-On-Off-Module-Non-dimming-w-Sense/p.aspx is in essence a SwitchLinc, but without the paddle/buttons. This is what would actually physically connect to most of your loads; and it would be remotely controlled via a "virtual link" between it and any number of "SwitchLinc" or "KeypadLinc" devices, located wherever convenient.

So, getting back to your question above, all you'd need is (for example) one KeypadLinc mounted in a single-gang box wherever you wanted to be able to control things (such as near each entry point), and connected more-or-less directly to the building's power lines. From there it can send & receive commands as necessary to remotely control up to eight different combinations of devices, NONE of which necessarily need to be physically connected to that KeypadLinc. (And note, the word "combinations" is also a key point here. One SwitchLinc paddle or KeypadLinc button can "virtually" control any number of devices, located anywhere in the home; and conversely, any given load can be controlled from essentially any number of locations.)

Does that help "illuminate" things?

 

[2ManyProjects]

Here's my shop. I use 100W compact florescence "daylight" bulbs on 4 switches. I use perimeter lighting in each bay (I use my shop for mostly automobiles) and I like it ALOT! Each switch operates lights in all three bays. Switch 1 is lighting just to navigate through the shop. Switches 1&2 are for simple tasks. Switches 1, 2&3 are for working on my cars. Switches 1, 2, 3&4 are used for sheet metal layout, cutting and forming, and welding (after a lot of cleaning/picking up!!!).

While I applaud your use of multi-bank switching to provide some control over illumination levels, in at least most of the pics you posted, the end result still appears quite spotty and uneven. Distinct (in some cases, severe) shadows are visible in nearly all areas. I strongly suspect that much of this issue can be laid at the feet of the "point source" nature of CFLs.

...A friend of mine painted his upper walls a light yellow. His idea was for the reflected light from his 100W CFL's would create a warmer more natural light. It does work, but, to me it doesn't look like a shop (light yellow upper walls and medium brown lower side walls). Maybe it's something that has to grow on you?

I prefer whites & greys, as well. The color temperature of the light can be easily enough controlled at the source. If you rely on reflections to influence that, you'll end up with different-colored light in different places. Probably not a huge practical problem unless you're doing color-critical work (matching paint, etc.); but I think I'd find it annoying anyway.

And as for "more natural light", that depends completely on whatever you're arbitrarily considering "natural". At any given time of a typical day, and depending on both the weather and exactly where you're standing, the nominal color temperature of natural daylight will vary WILDLY, from deep into the yellow/orange/red range, to downright blueish/purpleish. No fluorescent lamp I'm aware of comes anywhere near accurately reproducing natural daylight over the full spectrum; at best, they (sort'a, kind'a) "average out" to about the same overall balance.

 

[2ManyProjects]

That's nearly a million lumens!

How do you figure? Per his second drawing, I'm seeing a total of 84 F32T8s, not counting whatever task/under-counter lighting he winds up putting in those bump-out areas. At about 3,200 lumens each, that works out to approximately 269,000 lumens -- still quite a lot, but nowhere near a million.

How many square feet in total?

Per a notation on his first drawing (which was apparently dropped to make room for the fan symbols), 1,715 ft.^2; I'm not sure if this includes the bump-outs or not.

I don't see a scale on the drawing...

Each of those closely-spaced dashed green lines is two feet apart, and apparently represent truss/rafter positions. The longer/angled dashed green lines apparently depict breaks in the roof/ceiling contours.

 

[toofart]

As others have said, try to focus lighting on the separate work areas. I have just over 1050 sq. ft (2 bays) and all I use is three strips of dual 8' in each bay, and I have 2 switches -- one for each bay. Over my workbench I have Two dual 4'.

Walls are painted white -- it makes a hell of a difference.

 

[dipan]

How do you figure? Per his second drawing, I'm seeing a total of 84 F32T8s, not counting whatever task/under-counter lighting he winds up putting in those bump-out areas. At about 3,200 lumens each, that works out to approximately 269,000 lumens -- still quite a lot, but nowhere near a million.



Per a notation on his first drawing (which was apparently dropped to make room for the fan symbols), 1,715 ft.^2; I'm not sure if this includes the bump-outs or not.



Each of those closely-spaced dashed green lines is two feet apart, and apparently represent truss/rafter positions. The longer/angled dashed green lines apparently depict breaks in the roof/ceiling contours.

Sorry, you are correct. I was looking at this on my phone, was looking only at the first picture, and made an error and multiplied by 4 an extra time

Anyway, I'm on my computer now. If the goal is to have about 100 footcandles (100 lumens per square foot), then the target should be 171,500 lumens total. So 53-54 T8 light bulbs however you mix it at 3200 lumens each. Depends on the bulb to some degree as it seems other T8 bulbs come in at 2800 lumens. The lighting as drawn the second time is going to be very bright indeed at 157 footcandles, assuming 1715 square feet. If the owner is a younger guy, then it will be way overkill, but for an older guy with not so great eyesight, it will still be bright but not as bad ... I suppose you could always remove some of the bulbs to decrease intensity.

See the great article on lighting the small workshop on sawmillcreek.org by Jack Lindsey: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?146-Lighting-the-Small-Workshop-by-Jack-Lindsey

 

[pattenp]

3200 lumens is not the typical lumens per F32T8, it's more like 2600 - 2800 LU. The High Lumen tubes are in the 3000LU range and up and you most likely won't find them at your local big box store. Any average lumen calcs I do I use 2700LU, but each to his own.

How do you figure? Per his second drawing, I'm seeing a total of 84 F32T8s, not counting whatever task/under-counter lighting he winds up putting in those bump-out areas. At about 3,200 lumens each, that works out to approximately 269,000 lumens -- still quite a lot, but nowhere near a million.

..........

 

[2ManyProjects]

Sorry, you are correct. I was looking at this on my phone, was looking only at the first picture, and made an error and multiplied by 4 an extra time

No harm, no foul.

And actually, as "pattenp" pointed out, even the 269,000 figure is rather overstated, as it was based on high-output tubes. With more typical ~2,800 (initial) lumen tubes, he'll be around 235,000 lumens, total.

Anyway, I'm on my computer now. If the goal is to have about 100 footcandles (100 lumens per square foot), then the target should be 171,500 lumens total. So 53-54 T8 light bulbs however you mix it at 3200 lumens each. Depends on the bulb to some degree as it seems other T8 bulbs come in at 2800 lumens. The lighting as drawn the second time is going to be very bright indeed at 157 footcandles, assuming 1715 square feet.

It's a little on the high side, but not as far out of whack as you might think. First, as touched on above, we're talking INITIAL lumens here. As the bulbs age, they will get progressively dimmer, typically losing about about 5-10% of their output capability long before they are actually "worn out". Secondly, as I've been whining about for awhile now, if you setup up the switching correctly, you don't necessarily have to run everything, all the time -- and probably won't, usually. But as long as you DO have that switching flexibility, a bit of "overkill" when you do have a reason to want everything on is very probably a good thing. So, taking ALL of this into account, he's looking at about 123-130 lumens/ft.^2 with everything on, after the tubes have some hours on them. I think that's a pretty reasonable figure.

3200 lumens is not the typical lumens per F32T8, it's more like 2600 - 2800 LU.

Right. But at that moment, I was trying to come up with a "worst case" maximum, to compare to "dipan"'s "million lumen" figure.

 

[nehog]

Oops. yeah. I guess I like the entire place to be lit up at once. I don't want to look across the garage at a dark space. Is that wrong?...

Wrong? No, not really, but I've found it doesn't bother me at all that some of the shop is dark(er) than the rest. In my case, the florescent lights are drawing about 400 watts per bay, and the metal halide another 1600 watts per bay. I can choose (and often do) to use one bay of metal halide and two of florescent and lave the end bay (much of which is storage--both vehicles and stuff...) dark unless I'm searching for something on the shelves.

There is no way that I'll waste 2 KWH per bay if I don't have to, certainly not at today's energy prices! My main work area is at one end, and I keep that end bright, the center bay florescent only, and it works very well for me. I honestly think you'd feel it was fine if you were to see it.

 

[thetastelingers]

So. many. replies. Don't know where to start!!!!

 

[thetastelingers]

I note that you have added ceiling fans in two of the garage bays. Why not the third? And either way, what about switching/control for these devices?

The third was left out because I plan on putting a lift in that bay in the future and it would have to be removed for that.
I want to get through the lights before I start messing with the fan controls.
Figured I would just leave those out for now.

 

[thetastelingers]

Currently looking at all the Insteon products to get a grasp of what it is capable of.

 

[thetastelingers]

Why couldn't you just replace the breakers with RF breakers and be done with it? No extra relays to add.

 

[2ManyProjects]

So. many. replies. Don't know where to start!!!!

One step at a time. Bite off only as much as you can chew, figure it out, then move on to the next item. Yes, there will be a fair amount of "interrelated issues syndrome" which can tend to blur the lines; but deal with those as they come up. Ask as many questions as you need to, along the way. Eventually, you'll have it all figured out; at which point, you'll be ready to actually start building something..

The third was left out because I plan on putting a lift in that bay in the future and it would have to be removed for that.

OK, that makes sense. But it also means you should pre-wire for that lift NOW, while the walls & ceiling are open.

I want to get through the lights before I start messing with the fan controls.
Figured I would just leave those out for now.

Again, you really want to do at least all the rough-ins BEFORE you put in insulation, drywall, etc.; so you need to figure out from the start, as accurately as possible, exactly what will eventually be installed. Better to make provision for something that winds up never happening, than be faced with having to tear out a lot of prior work to accommodate something you didn't make provision for.

Currently looking at all the Insteon products to get a grasp of what it is capable of.

Good. There are so many individual products (some of them a tad on the silly side), and so many possible permutations, that it can be a little confusing/intimidating at first, at least until you get a good handle on the basic concepts involved. But once over that initial hump in the learning curve, both the myriad of possibilities and the ease with which they can be implemented will become almost startlingly obvious to you. (That "light bulb moment", so to speak.)

Why couldn't you just replace the breakers with RF breakers and be done with it? No extra relays to add.

What exactly do you mean by "RF breakers"? I'm not familiar with the term.

For that matter, circuit breakers and control switching/relays are two very different things, which do two very different jobs. So I'm not sure how you figure one would or could replace the other, notwithstanding however "RF" might further complicate things.