Muriatic Acid Trial - Cleaning Old Tools

[ears]

anyway, question is what do you guys do with the muratic acid once you're done soaking the tools. i'm sure the EPA would have a field day if they found out you were dumping it in a sewer.

I worked for a pool company acid washing pools all the acid and rinse water in the bottom of the pool we would neutralize with soda ash and just pump out to the edge of the yard, into the gutter, street, wherever. Chase it with a garden hose to get rid of the foam and it would just leave a little sand behind. My boss swore it was harmless once neutralized and watered down enough.

 

[beelsr]

I have the same wrenches, love them too...

Dip the handles in plastic. That will cut down on the rusting handles, at least. I find the business-end doesn't rust as quickly/at all since it's more polished....

i have some craftsman adjustible wrenches i want to clean. they're about 10 years old. no chrome or paint their bare metal. and their kinda porus. imagine the surface of a c-man raised panel wrench or ratchet without chrome. that's what they look like. anyhoo they rust real bad. i've sand blasted or wire brushed them a hundred times and soak them in oil. they always come clean. i come back a month later and their rusty. i can store them submerged in oil and they'd still rust. it's a pitty because i like them they're beefier than the crecent adjustible wrenches.

 

[mkdive]

the evil spinning fury of the wheel.

 

[tdkkart]

Just FYI, muratic acid does a great job of taking piston residue off cast iron cylinder walls, something that comes up frequently in the karting world.

 

[dxdexter]

Ketchup is slightly acidic. I wonder what it would do?

I would definitely give it a try, but have a side order of fries ready so it doesn't go to waste.

 

[beelsr]

and in the chainsaw world too.

Use a Q-tip to wipe it on and do gentle scrubbing. Rinse. Clean in an alkaline/basic cleaner/solution.

Just FYI, muratic acid does a great job of taking piston residue off cast iron cylinder walls, something that comes up frequently in the karting world.

 

[-B-]

I have been doing some research after mentioning this to pops and a friend who both questioned the long term results. I knew my high school chemistry was nagging me on this and it has been confirmed by 3 now.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=174183

Gary350

Unfortunately, although Muriatic Acid "removes rust in a flash". the Chlorine in the Muriatic (HydroChloric !) Acid chemically combines with the steel and will cause the steel to re-rust FOREVER.

You know how road salt (NaCl) starts your car rusting, and it is almost impossible to stop? Well, HCl (Muriatic a.k.a. HydroChloric) acid will do exactly the same thing.

You can forget "washing it off" or "neutalizing it with baking soda" or whatever. The Chlorine CHEMICALLY COMBINES with the steel, rusting it forever unless the Chlorine ions are extracted.

(The only way I know of to get chlorine ions out of steel is electrolysis in a bath of washing soda. It is slow but it does work.)

Ever see rust pits that look almost like wormholes? There's a chloride ion at the bottom of each pit !!! It is doing a bucket-brigade reaction by combining with iron and then, in the presence of air, giving up the iron to an oxygen making rust.

No, you'd be best off keeping your steel as far away from Hydrochloric Acid, Bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite) and Salt as you can.

If you really want to use an acid, use either Citric Acid or Phosphoric Acid. Search PM for these terms and you will find ways to buy them economically.

BTW: Concentrated Citric Acid will sharpen files! And, in small concentrations with flavoring, we call it "Kool-Aid" !!!

John Ruth

I'm not sure if it is the absolute fastest way to remove rust, but I've had good luck with soaking rusty tools in Citric Acid. (Also called "Sour Salt" - it is used in pickling and winemaking.) Don't leave it in too long, Citric Acid can etch steel. Oddly enough, it has no apparent effect on one's fingers. It's even edible in small quantities - Kool Aid is mostly Citric Acid.

Phosphoric Acid, sold at Home Depot as "Behr Concrete Rust Stain Remover" is also good.

Just don't use Muriatic, because it contains Chlorine which will chemically combine with the steel and cause it to rust forever and ever.


John Ruth
Who notes that everyone "runs down" lantern toolposts, but notes that the oldtimers did plenty of fine work with them.

 

[35mastr]

I would also think that the acid would have an affect on the metal such as metal embrittlement.(SP)

 

[T56 Impala]

All of these ideas are good ones. I however must question why you would not use a solution that is safe, fast, effective, readily available and harmless, such as evaporust. Yes I use it. My reasons for doing so are because..... it is safe, fast, effective, readily available and harmless.

The results from all of these items appear to be about the same. A slight time difference and possible cost difference, is all that is involved. Besides wire wheels of course! They do save a lot of time but do damage the tool in the long run.

I know, its all a matter of choice.

FWIW, if cost is an object, consider this:

A Gallon of Evaporust at HF cost me $19.99 plus tax. After using about 1/2 of it in a seal container, I ran it through a coffee filter. (This takes a while as it is a bit thicker than water!) After filtering, the "used" solution is again ready for use. As long as it remains in a sealed container, the shelf life is, well, a very long time according to the EOR web site. I have seen no loss of effectiveness with my filtered EOR. I have to assume that this 1 gallon of EOR is going to last me a very long time.

 

[Frank Elson]

The snow has gone and temperatures are up in the sizes and sevens, so time for me to get back to the workshop with my wire wheel...

what?

 

[fatfillup]

I agree with T56 Impala, evoporust goes a long way and is definitely safe on chrome. I have kept using the same initial pint or so that I poured out at first, and have cleaned 20 tools or so and it keeps working. The tools come out great and a quick scrub with a scotchbrite pad takes away the dark patina on unplated steel.

 

[dxdexter]

All of these ideas are good ones. I however must question why you would not use a solution that is safe, fast, effective, readily available and harmless, such as evaporust. Yes I use it. My reasons for doing so are because..... it is safe, fast, effective, readily available and harmless.

My reason is simple. I had a liter of the stuff sitting on my garage self for many years. I bought it for cleaning the mineral deposits from the toilet. I tried many commercial products and nothing worked. The muriatic acid worked over night. We have used the acid at work for cleaning concrete residue from steel tools and molds for decades with no damage to the steel what so ever. Concrete companies use it by the gallons to clean the exterior of their mixers.

I'm sure the product you suggests works well, but I have never ever seen it in these parts and am not even sure it exists in Canada.

The environmental concerns are really a red herring. A few ounces of dilute acid is not really a problem for me. It can readily be neutralized or used over and over until it becomes ineffective. It's probably far less harmful than toilet bowl cleaner.

The snow has gone and temperatures are up in the sizes and sevens, so time for me to get back to the workshop with my wire wheel...

what?

I think I will warm up the old wire wheel as well. It's far less controversial, works in seconds and does the same job.

 

[Torque1st]

Speed - efficiency - safety, -whatever. I have a gallon of muriatic acid that was purchased for some other cleaning function many years ago. It has many uses and I consider it safe to use but then I have spent many years in labs; -chemistry, metallurgical, materials, etc, etc. The multitude of uses for the muriatic (dilute hydrochloric) acid saves storage space for me that is not needed for bottles of naval jelly, evaporust, lime remover, and other products.

BTW- Someone earlier mentioned metal embrittlement. A tool can be exposed to hydrogen embrittlement in a plating or cleaning bath but if the slight effect that has on the strength of the tool is a problem then the scratches from the wire wheel would also be a source of concern. In other words don't worry about it. As far as the chloride ions boring holes thru the tool... If that were a grave concern then one must never touch their tools with their hands! The salt (NaCl -Sodium Chloride) from their fingers would cause their tools to fail!!!

 

[Bolster]

I have been doing some research after mentioning this to pops and a friend who both questioned the long term results...

B, thank you for doing this research. Much appreciated...I'll be sticking with Evaporust.

 

[chicane]

I use alot safer method.

Apple Cider Vinagar,The Yellow Stuff

Before

After 7 days of soaking and shaking it around a bit.

WOW! Thanks for the tip. The Apple Cider Vinegar really works great! I cleaned off a bunch of old screws, bolts and nuts.

 

[-B-]

B, thank you for doing this dieresearch. Much appreciated...I'll be sticking with Evaporust. [/QUOTE


With the number of taps, dies, and tools I have to do I am going to be damn certain before I do anything.


I have use coke and naval jelly in the past but the long term soak times they take make me want a better way.

 

[ZRX61]

I use muratic acid to strip cad plating from hardware....don't breathe the fumes..

 

[dxdexter]

B, thank you for doing this research. Much appreciated...I'll be sticking with Evaporust.

With all due respect to -B-, I wouldn't put much stock in quotes from other forum's members as being the definitive word on a chemical commonly used in the metal industry as a rust remover and in metal preparation for various finishing operations. Maybe SouthBendModel34 knows something they don't. At any rate the purpose of this thread was, as the title implied, to give a sense, by means of a trial of the product and report the results of practical testing. As a commercial user for nearly 20 years in the concrete industry, I have yet to see any worm holes created in steel. Maybe if the product was used full strength and not washed and protected with oil afterward, who knows, but that would be misuse of the product.

I could care less what anyone uses to clean their tools, but at least they can see what will happen when Muriatic acid is used.

 

[chicane]

WOW! Thanks for the tip. The Apple Cider Vinegar really works great! I cleaned off a bunch of old screws, bolts and nuts.

One question about the Apple Cider Vinegar, how do you prep the metal after soaking it to insure that it doesn't re-rust? WD-40? I also notices a film from the vinegar develops on the metal not too long after pulling it from the bath.

 

[T56 Impala]

With all due respect to -B-, I wouldn't put much stock in quotes from other forum's members as being the definitive word on a chemical commonly used in the metal industry as a rust remover and in metal preparation for various finishing operations. Maybe SouthBendModel34 knows something they don't. At any rate the purpose of this thread was, as the title implied, to give a sense, by means of a trial of the product and report the results of practical testing. As a commercial user for nearly 20 years in the concrete industry, I have yet to see any worm holes created in steel. Maybe if the product was used full strength and not washed and protected with oil afterward, who knows, but that would be misuse of the product.

I could care less what anyone uses to clean their tools, but at least they can see what will happen when Muriatic acid is used.

I think I'll take MY derusting knowledge from the USAF and Army. They both use EOR. Both on tanks and Aircraft. If its good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

 

[dsan]

Here’s my before and after of some Plomb wrenches I found in my MiL’s basement. I made a soaking chamber from 2” PVC. I used the acid at full strength and soaked for only a minute or so. After rinsing, you need to oil the object quickly or you can almost see new rust forming immediately. IMO, muriatic acid is the best and fastest option to clean-up old rusty stuff. The acid can be neutralized with baking soda.

Very nice Frank Lee. How did you neutralize with baking soda?

 

[35mastr]

Apple Cider Vinegar is a better solution. Not to mention alot more friendly.

 

[Art From De Leon]

Don't do like I did and use bleach to neutralize the HCL, it generates chlorine gas, and I was lucky to get out of the apartment.

Vinegar is much better, it might not work as fast, but it is not as damaging to steel either.

 

[spv]

I have been following this discussion and one over at an Italian car site on the same subject. Quite a few people have recommended either home-brew mix of Degreaser and Acetone or Phosphoric Acid. Last night got a bunch of dirty car nuts (grease, grime and dirt collected over 30 years - you could not pick them up without getting black stuff all over your hands) and bolts and decided to "clean" them.. Here are some of the stage 1 results:

3 parts Degreaser, 1 part Acetone:

24hrs later

A lot of Sludge - not sure what it is exactly, dirt, iron?

The finished result

 

[spv]

Stage 2 - some of the "dirty" bolts came out with some rust still on the surface. I visited a Pool supplies store today and purchased some Phosphoric acid. The princely price was $26 for 5ltrs. Buying similar "rust converter" is ~$20 for less than 1ltr here (note the makeup is the same gram amount of both products). So the pool supplies store is definitely the place to buy.

Pool store $26 for 5ltr:

Auto store $21 for 1ltr:

Test bolts in the Acid (note already "cleaned with Stage 1")

The reaction in progress... Notice the bubbles. Lets out a funky smell.

Results will be posted in 24hrs. Stay posted..

 

[Torque1st]

A quarter cup of baking soda in a 5-gallon bucket will do to neutralize acid. I usually rinse the parts in water before I throw them in the neutralizing bath. After the neutralizing bath I just rinse them again, dry them, and wipe them down with a light oil in the scent of your choice. When you are done slowly combine the soda water with the acid to neutralize them both and dump them down the stool. They can mess up your lawn or streams.

My local water supply is basic, averaging approx 9.6pH as of the last report.

 

[Mil1ion]

Believe it or not, I used to wash my eyes out with muratic acid. Not on purpose though,
I kept splashing it in my eyes when I washed my concrete truck.


Hey Eric, I lost your phone #

 

[beelsr]

to oil tools after i de-rust them, i just dump them in the parts washer. very low-labor intensive method....

 

[dkroth]

Believe it or not, I used to wash my eyes out with muratic acid. Not on purpose though,
I kept splashing it in my eyes when I washed my concrete truck.


Hey Eric, I lost your phone #

Eric's phone number is right there in front of you. You just can't see it because you're blind after getting muratic acid in your eyes!