I'm so confused. Help me out here

[mykvr6]

I'm an engineer so I'm literal. Something either works or it doesn't. I don't care what brand it is. Am I alone on this island?

I would agree to a point, but here's the thing - how long do you want something to work? Once or forever? For a year or 20 years? For your lifetime or ten lifetimes? If two things worked identically, were made identically, lasted the same amount of time - hey buy the cheaper one. Who cares if it says "snap on" or "joe bag o' donuts" on it. All things being equal, people will buy the cheaper item. We used to talk about this all the time in retail. But you can't just shop on price alone because all things are NOT equal. Some wrenches are pot metal covered in chrome, some toolboxes are made with thinner, cheaper sheet metal with cheap finishes that ended up chipped, rusted with the drawers dragging and sagging in a year. If you can get away with that pot metal wrench for a lifetime because you almost never use it, go for it! If you need a quality wrench that you use everyday, pay for something made nicer.

You shouldn't just pay for a name, you should pay for quality and for what you need. I can understand that.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Well...some tools do perform better over time. Better to have the option than not to (I suppose).

I also wear atomic G shock casios (actually atomic solar). They're great watches but still require maintenance (if it's a non-rechargeable battery); gasket every time you change it or it fogs up. At least in my experience. Also, they don't "appreciate" like rolexes because they ain't made of precious metals. Different strokes I suppose.

Luxury watches need even more maintenance, every couple years it is a couple hundred dollar service fee if you want them to last.

 

[Hiball]

Hiball, to answer your question. EE, PhD specializing in semiconductor manufacturing. Expert in patterned wafer defect detection tools, primarily KLA-Tencor. 40 years in the field. I think I've seen more innovation than any man alive. From Kilby and Noyce's first IC to the latest Pentiums. I understand what innovation is what I don't understand is why one piece of forged metal is considered different than what amounts to an identical piece of forged metal made by the identical metallurgical process. What has changed in the making of a wrench or a toolbox in 50 years?

I would first suggest some research into the highlighted areas above, You seem to be lacking in this department. 50 Years? Again.. A lot has Changed, Obviously not near as much over the last 10 or so as companies have simply stolen the innovations that Engineers spent Years Testing and Developing only to try and steal as much market share as possible.

I would really think you would be familiar with the Term "Intellectual property theft" as your field has been hit fairly hard.

 

[dnschmidt]

HiBall, here is what you're missing. In the 1970's all semiconductor organizations made their own tools and developed their own manufacturing technologies. When I needed an epi reactor at Westinghouse R&D Center in 1974 I designed it and had our extraordinarily well equipped machine shops make it. Then Applied Materials and Gemini came along and sold epi reactors to everybody. Not only did they provide the machines they also provided the process to run on the machines. I'm sure that Snap-On had proprietary methods in the 1970's that made their wrenches better than everybody else's because they made most of the tools to make them and developed their own proprietary processes. Almost without question, this is no longer true. They buy their production tools from tool makers (likely German) who will sell them the tool with a guaranteed process to Snap-on, TOPTUL, Ko-Ken and anybody else with the money to buy them. Heat treating steel was once no doubt a tightly kept trade secret, these days a simple search on the Internet will provide you with excellent formulas for the heat treatment of steel. What was once a competitive advantage is now public domain. Information is everywhere. Do you think Snap-On knows more about heat treating steel than TOPTUL and many others. The clear answer to that is not anymore.

When I was at Westinghouse I was an industry mentor to MIT's semiconductor research group. 95% of the graduate students in this group were Chinese or Indian. The same is true of every major research university in America. Who do you think are now developing these advanced processes - THEY ARE, not us.

I'm sad to say this but you're living in the past. Actually, the distant past.

 

[dnschmidt]

Kracin, you have hit upon the KEY POINT. I DO understand why one silicon chip is worth more than another. The expensive chip has a line width in nanometers and the cheap chip a linewidth in microns. The expensive chip took a billion dollar factory to produce and the cheap chip a factory filled with used tools that cost 75 million.

In the tool game everybody is at this late point in time are almost certainly using the same tools (very likely made in Germany) to make the same products. This is the key difference. Bending up a tool box uses the same level of technology no matter where or who bends it up. SO WHY PAY MORE THAN YOU HAVE TO?

An I-phone can do more than my LG flipper. It should cost more. This differentiation no longer applies to most tools.

 

[Hiball]

HiBall, here is what you're missing. In the 1970's all semiconductor organizations made their own tools and developed their own manufacturing technologies. When I needed an epi reactor at Westinghouse R&D Center in 1974 I designed it and had our extraordinarily well equipped machine shops make it. Then Applied Materials and Gemini came along and sold epi reactors to everybody. Not only did they provide the machines they also provided the process to run on the machines. I'm sure that Snap-On had proprietary methods in the 1970's that made their wrenches better than everybody else's because they made most of the tools to make them and developed their own proprietary processes. Almost without question, this is no longer true. They buy their production tools from tool makers (likely German) who will sell them the tool with a guaranteed process to Snap-on, TOPTUL, Ko-Ken and anybody else with the money to buy them. Heat treating steel was once no doubt a tightly kept trade secret, these days a simple search on the Internet will provide you with excellent formulas for the heat treatment of steel. What was once a competitive advantage is now public domain. Information is everywhere. Do you think Snap-On knows more about heat treating steel than TOPTUL and many others. The clear answer to that is not anymore.

When I was at Westinghouse I was an industry mentor to MIT's semiconductor research group. 95% of the graduate students in this group were Chinese or Indian. The same is true of every major research university in America. Who do you think are now developing these advanced processes - THEY ARE, not us.

I'm sad to say this but you're living in the past. Actually, the distant past.

Absolutely Not missing anything, I Believe if you go back and re-read what I typed i clearly said the same thing in regards to Ten years versus 50 years ago.




I would like to see some public information on Snap on or any major brand in regards to heat treating, that included temp/duration of any other specifics. Secondly.. There are a lot of factors that go into RD of hand tools outside of metallurgy. How about ergonomics? Might not mean much to your average tinkerer, but what about the guy working 50 hours a week? Choices are good, why some of you want to argue this the end is beyond me.

 

[wild cowboy]

People need to get over this whole "made in USA is always best" ****, buy the best tools your usage of them can rationalize and buy them on the basis of their quality, not country of origin! - I don't care if the best ratchet is made in Zimbabwe, and more power to them if they can put out world class quality!

I reward a job well done with my dollars, this is why I have driven reliable Japanese cars for 35 years, and thus, the car work I do on my own cars is discretionary, not mandatory on the side of the road!

You know, those Japanese car companies that build their cars in America (rather than in Mexico and Canada like the American car companies) and who employ Americans to sell, repair, transport, distribute, design, and build the parts for their cars. It's nice that the higher quality is available to everyone! - Good job, Mr. Honda-san and Mr. Toyota-san.

 

[kazlx]

An I-phone can do more than my LG flipper. It should cost more. This differentiation no longer applies to most tools.

Wrong. Just wrong. Spin up a HF grinder and a Baldor. Tell me which one you'd rather use. It's already been beat to death. If someone has to explain it to you....

Keep name dropping, it might help your credibility...

 

[rancherbill]

The box I have now is a KRA series and I could probably have every drawer open and not have to worry about it tipping. I bought that box in used mint condition for $1500.

That's the funniest comment in the last several tool box threads. You can spend a million dollars on a box, but it won't fix doing something stupid.

There was a thread yesterday with pics of a SO that tipped.

 

[RalphInCA]

People need to get over this whole "made in USA is always best" ****, buy the best tools your usage of them can rationalize and buy them on the basis of their quality, not country of origin! - I don't care if the best ratchet is made in Zimbabwe, and more power to them if they can put out world class quality!

I reward a job well done with my dollars, this is why I have driven reliable Japanese cars for 35 years, and thus, the car work I do on my own cars is discretionary, not mandatory on the side of the road!

You know, those Japanese car companies that build their cars in America (rather than in Mexico and Canada like the American car companies) and who employ Americans to sell, repair, transport, distribute, design, and build the parts for their cars. It's nice that the higher quality is available to everyone! - Good job, Mr. Honda-san and Mr. Toyota-san.

good comments.

 

[wild cowboy]

Wrong. Just wrong. Spin up a HF grinder and a Baldor. Tell me which one you'd rather use. It's already been beat to death. If someone has to explain it to you....

Keep name dropping, it might help your credibility...

the problem with your example, and your logic is that Baldor is the exception, not the rule. Most world class mechanical & electrical items, best of breed so to speak, whether they are cars, wristwatches, cameras, phones or a zillion other things, are typically NOT made in America these days. The best quality of a particular item is typically something German, Japanese, Korean, Swiss, Taiwanese or whatever.

 

[Farmall450]

The box I have now is a KRA series and I could probably have every drawer open and not have to worry about it tipping. I bought that box in used mint condition for $1500.

Why do you say that?
Just because of the drawer configuration?
Gravity would probably disagree

 

[kazlx]

I just used a comparison that came to mind. I honestly don't even know if Baldor is still USA made. I don't care where it comes from, I just know it's leagues above an HF grinder, even though they both serve one literal function, to grind. Same with the OPs example with a Casio and a Rolex. If someone has to explain the difference to them then they obviously don't get it. He's trying to say that an iPhone justifies it's cost over the Casio because it does more, but Rolex doesn't justify cost because it only tells time, just like his Casio. Someone failed logic class.

 

[wild cowboy]

speaking of iPhones, ever notice that the extreme phone geek types, the true phone hacker experts, NEVER own an iPhone themselves? - that ought to tell ya something, when the world's cell phone experts shun a particular model!

 

[kazlx]

That's also what makes them appeal to the masses. Androids are more for tech geeks. 99.9% of the population wouldn't need nor care about modifying it. iPhone is simple, which is the appeal.

 

[Canoe50]

And I would dare to say that no one is right or wrong. The wide selection of products of different categories ranging from watches through cars to tool boxes gives us the liberty of choice. That is the most important that we can chose whatever suits our needs. If one is happy with his watch because it tells accurate time it's fine. If someone else is happy with super expensive watch because it tells time and looks expensive and luxurious that's fine too. I think everyone has a little something that they would put all the money into because it's their passion, their "thing". For some watches, for others bikes, for women high heels (hehe), phones etc. It's a liberty of choice and ability and privilege to chose from many, many options.

^^^^^^ This.
As the saying goes, whatever floats your boat. That's all that really matters.

 

[48RON54]

I keep my watch next to my typewriter but across the room from my butter churn thing

Move into the late 1990s and dump that watch

 

[TonyCH]

the problem with your example, and your logic is that Baldor is the exception, not the rule. Most world class mechanical & electrical items, best of breed so to speak, whether they are cars, wristwatches, cameras, phones or a zillion other things, are typically NOT made in America these days. The best quality of a particular item is typically something German, Japanese, Korean, Swiss, Taiwanese or whatever.

Sorry to say but "Made in Usa" and "good quality" is something you very rarely see in same sentence and in positive note here abroads. In fact the only exception where you see that belief repeated all over seems to be US based web forums. Its good to be patriotic but maybe its good to sometimes hear what others think too? Why is there so little USA made stuff sold in Europe? Because nobody buys it when they can get better quality for less.

I do have 3 American cars and boxes full of S-O tools. US cars are considered **** (outside those circles who still dress in 50's clothes) and the running joke here is that American cars are delivered to customers as semi finished products and as its the owners job to finish them - that is called a car hobby. S-O, IR and few other brands of tools on the other hand, I like them very much. They are pretty much the same quality as better German tools but with nicer looks (and double price).

...pulling my flamesuit on now...

 

[wild cowboy]

Sorry to say but "Made in Usa" and "good quality" is something you very rarely see in same sentence and in positive note here abroads. In fact the only exception where you see that belief repeated all over seems to be US based web forums. Its good to be patriotic but maybe its good to sometimes hear what others think too? Why is there so little USA made stuff sold in Europe? Because nobody buys it when they can get better quality for less.

I do have 3 American cars and boxes full of S-O tools. US cars are considered **** (outside those circles who still dress in 50's clothes) and the running joke here is that American cars are delivered to customers as semi finished products and as its the owners job to finish them - that is called a car hobby. S-O, IR and few other brands of tools on the other hand, I like them very much. They are pretty much the same quality as better German tools but with nicer looks (and double price).

...pulling my flamesuit on now...

for being from Finland, you sure are more enlightened than many Americans are....about things American! - LOL

pretty darn perceptive! - now if you could only move your cool egalitarian country away from crazy cold weather and away from Putin!

 

[brass89]

lmao, I have to agree Tony and I'm in the u.s. It's not that I'm disloyal, but I hate the "made in the u.s. so it's superior" mantra too. We make some things well, not all things. Just like every other country. Many people like to cite that things in the u.s. are made with exacting pride and all that, yea well - where? I find it funny how everything done by american workers is supposed to be top notch, yet every place I've worked manufacturing coworkers have been sloppy slackers who don't follow procedure, don't follow guidelines for testing during production runs and live by 'good enough, do i get my check now?' or 'is it payday yet?' or 'what do you want for $7/hr?'. That's been in multiple places across multiple states, including a machine shop manufacturing parts for one of the top tier a/c compressor companies in the u.s., rawling's sports equipment, a truss plant that catered to a premium home developer in the southwest including vegas and a company building prefab steel construction panels with foam insulation for businesses like fast food restaurant chains. I'm sold on what's a quality anything, provided they can back up the claims regardless where it's made.

 

[wild cowboy]

I keep my watch next to my typewriter but across the room from my butter churn thing

Move into the late 1990s and dump that watch

watches have a cool factor that a smartphone never will, can you imagine James Bond with no wristwatch?

besides, when your battery goes dead because you kept blabbering on a call and tuned out the low battery warning, your watch still knows the time even though your smartphone has engaged auto-shutdown

and women always compliment my wristwatch, so I think I will have to keep it!

 

[Nick Danger]

My dad said the same thing about his Casio watch. He also put dollar store legs on his mid-century modern coffee table and kept his Stiffel lamp from tarnishing by coating it with globs of polyurethane. He was proud of the results, because they were cheap and they worked.

Some people are pleased by elegance, and some aren't.

 

[Steinmetz]

Hiball, to answer your question. EE, PhD specializing in semiconductor manufacturing. Expert in patterned wafer defect detection tools, primarily KLA-Tencor. 40 years in the field. I think I've seen more innovation than any man alive. From Kilby and Noyce's first IC to the latest Pentiums. I understand what innovation is what I don't understand is why one piece of forged metal is considered different than what amounts to an identical piece of forged metal made by the identical metallurgical process. What has changed in the making of a wrench or a toolbox in 50 years?

I'm with you, my brother. I have a Ph.D in mechanical engineering. Also a law degree and worked (very lucratively) as a patent attorney, specializing in semiconductors and wafer processing methods.

 

[Steinmetz]

Most engineers I know are always striving to Improve current practices, although sometimes it backfires.

I would think it would **** to go through life riding on the coat tails of others, accepting the status quo. What type of Engineer are you? Do you like your Job?

That you "know". Most of us created things that never existed before. You probably couldn't imagine what.

 

[Steinmetz]

watches have a cool factor that a smartphone never will, can you imagine James Bond with no wristwatch?

besides, when your battery goes dead because you kept blabbering on a call and tuned out the low battery warning, your watch still knows the time even though your smartphone has engaged auto-shutdown

and women always compliment my wristwatch, so I think I will have to keep it!

Agree. I've always worn a wristwatch. Preferably, one without embedded software.

 

[kazlx]

And something less douchy than a Rolex

 

[wild cowboy]

And something less douchy than a Rolex

my Citizen is solar powered, so never have to break the waterproof case seal to replace a battery, it has atomic time sync, so it is always precisely dead accurate, and it has a sapphire dial crystal, so it cannot get scratched, and it is built in Japan, so it will still be working flawlessly long after I'm gone, so why in hell would I trade it for a much less accurate and more delicate Rolex that I have to worry about the case integrity?

Rolex's are for girlie men!

 

[48RON54]

watches have a cool factor that a smartphone never will, can you imagine James Bond with no wristwatch?

besides, when your battery goes dead because you kept blabbering on a call and tuned out the low battery warning, your watch still knows the time even though your smartphone has engaged auto-shutdown

and women always compliment my wristwatch, so I think I will have to keep it!

I think wrist watches are great and would wear one if they didn't cause me issues. I just wanted to make light of what I view as a silly troll topic. My apologies if you thought I was judging your wristwatch sir!

 

[TonyCH]

my Citizen is solar powered, so never have to break the waterproof case seal to replace a battery

As a watch guy with loads of automatics, kinetics etc. one comment on this as I don't own any Citizens (Seiko vs. Citizen -thing you know? ): where is the solar energy stored on the Citizen? I doubt its direct feed ie. it works only when the solar cell gets its solar energy? Most solar watches have a rechargeable cell which will die over time and will need replacing. Also true with Seikos Kinetics.

But, its more accurate than the best mechanical Rolex money can buy for sure.

Don't have any Rolexes either - its the Omega vs. Rolex -thing you know...

 

[Hiball]

That you "know". Most of us created things that never existed before. You probably couldn't imagine what.

Well obviously I can't speak for every engineers mentality, nor there thought process or what they have or haven't created. What does that prove? Are you insinuating that you can or Do? The thing that most of them have in common, Again only the ones I've spoken with is that they are always trying to improve on or create a entirely New design. I've never known one that simply threw his hands up and said, Ah the hell with it.. A wrench is a wrench, why should I try and make it stronger/more comfortable etc.. Obviously in 2014 the leaps and gains are probably diminishing in certain areas, but I'm sure there are still engineers out here who have the drive to make better products in the tooling world.

 

[rick carpenter]

I use a sundial, so this whole argument doesn't make any sense to me...

 

[Kracin]

Kracin, you have hit upon the KEY POINT. I DO understand why one silicon chip is worth more than another. The expensive chip has a line width in nanometers and the cheap chip a linewidth in microns. The expensive chip took a billion dollar factory to produce and the cheap chip a factory filled with used tools that cost 75 million.

In the tool game everybody is at this late point in time are almost certainly using the same tools (very likely made in Germany) to make the same products. This is the key difference. Bending up a tool box uses the same level of technology no matter where or who bends it up. SO WHY PAY MORE THAN YOU HAVE TO?

An I-phone can do more than my LG flipper. It should cost more. This differentiation no longer applies to most tools.

different alloys are patented to different companies. wera has their own, snap-on has their own as well.

price point also comes from employee pay and benefits, company overhead, advertisement, and namesake.

it's not hard to understand, but i feel you are just being difficult for the fun of it. we have too many people like that on this forum already. we call those searsbashers


and let me tell you, those patented designs and formulas make a difference.... when i can take my wera impact cap chiseldriver and pound it through metal shelftops and use it like a chisel.... and it takes less damage than my craftsman chisels. there is merit to the cost

 

[DanInVA]

OK I'll pretend that this point is true although I really don't believe it. Does anybody really pull hard on a bolt with an open end wrench? I don't. When something doesn't want to give it up I use the box end or a socket. If it's a line of some sort I use a flare nut wrench, but I never apply serious torque with an open end and see no reason to ever do so. I saw WoodstockVA's video of the Wright open end and the Snap-On open end wrenches and said that's nice to myself but why the hell would you not use the box end for that. Is there ever a real application where open end wrenches must be used at maximum torque where a box wrench or a socket will not work? I've not encountered such a situation.

Seems I am late to this party, but yes, there absolutely is a use for open ended wrenches. Ever done a wheel alignment on a car with rack and pinion steering? A jam nut on a threaded rod that can't be reached with a socket or a box end wrench. This is one application where an open end wrench would be used. Add in a few years worth of rust and you have a recipe for some fun. I am 6'4" and about 275#, and there have been jam nuts I couldn't loosen without a torch. This is one of those times where a slipping wrench can equate to injury if you are not careful. If you think wrenches are expensive, you should check out what an e.r. trip can cost.

I'm not saying that any one brand in particular is overpriced, or that you can't do the same work with a cheaper tool. I'm just attempting to interject that open end wrenches can spread, and there may be times when you really need them not to.

 

[dnschmidt]

DanInVA, Point well made. I live in Arizona. Rusty nuts? never seen one. When I took off my Tie Rod Ends a cheap old S-K raised panel did it with little effort. There are benefits to living in a desert.

 

[Two Door]

DanInVA, Point well made. I live in Arizona. Rusty nuts? never seen one. When I took off my Tie Rod Ends a cheap old S-K raised panel did it with little effort. There are benefits to living in a desert.

Some people in your environment would consider that an extravagant wrench for those circumstances.....(putting the shoe on the other foot).

 

[ZRX61]

The argument for fine watches is quite similar to the argument for fine tools, fine cars, clothes, furniture, you name it. Top quality and appearance, and the associated prestige, are not cheap. The law of diminishing returns applies here also.

Just make sure your tools are made in the USA, your cars are made in Germany, and your watches are Swiss. That way nobody can tell you ****.

Two words: trophy wife....

 

[Bigplum]

I wear a $35 Casio watch. It does everything I can imagine a watch doing. It has a build in radio that syncs it to the NIST atomic clock every evening so that it is perpetually accurate to a thousandth of a second. It runs for years on a cheap battery, it has a lot of functions, most of which I never use since for me a watch should tell time and if it does that I'm happy. Considering that I have what appears to be a perfect watch why would I buy a Rolex. It can't perform the function of a watch any better than my Casio since my Casio is a perfect watch from the standpoint of doing what a watch does which is tell time.

So we have these Snap-On wrench arguments and tool box arguments. If another lesser wrench tightens and loosens every bolt to which it is applied to perfection without failure what can a Snap-On wrench at ten times the price do that this other wrench can't. The toolbox argument about the Kirkland toolbox I saw at COSTCO is another perfect example. If it looks nice, holds tools, the drawers slide properly and it rolls around what else can a Snap-On tool box do that justifies it's enormous price?

I'm an engineer so I'm literal. Something either works or it doesn't. I don't care what brand it is. Am I alone on this island?

Why did you waste $35 on the branded Casio ? Surely a $2.99 watch from a market or garage would still tell the time ?

 

[bcradio]

Hiball, to answer your question. EE, PhD specializing in semiconductor manufacturing. Expert in patterned wafer defect detection tools, primarily KLA-Tencor. 40 years in the field. I think I've seen more innovation than any man alive. From Kilby and Noyce's first IC to the latest Pentiums. I understand what innovation is what I don't understand is why one piece of forged metal is considered different than what amounts to an identical piece of forged metal made by the identical metallurgical process. What has changed in the making of a wrench or a toolbox in 50 years?

 

[FMC1959]

The Casio/Rolex analogy kinds of missed the boat. Rolex, Omega (mechanical movement) and very expensive watches by Blancpain, Vacheron Constatin, Patek and many others cost in the 5 & 6 figure dollar amounts.

Some are purchased for snob appeal, true watch aficionados buy them for the appreciation of the craftsmanship to build them, the fine mechanical pieces they are.

The point? Any of these mechanical movement watches can be considered masterpeices on how they are built, but they have a hard time staying accurate to within a minute/month. Any $20 quartz watch blows them away, keeping accuracy at less than a minute/year.

Fact, a $35 Casio is better at keeping time than a Rolex.

People can argue all day long about the value and price with Snap On, but nobody in their right mind will ever say that a $5 wrench is better at wrenching than a SO.

 

[BFHtime]

If it is inherited, and then passed on again; it has no value except emotional and that it tells time. It was zero in ( because you didn't pay for it) and it's zero out (because you didnt convert it to cash).

So your watch isn't really relevant as far as depreciation. Unless the swiss watch you mention is a different watch...then it's worse; you paid $3000...and did not convert it (except emotionally as an after death gift) so...you don't get that $2900 I generously gave you... net monetarily loss is $3000. Gross loss is $3000 minus $40 (casio) times a lifetime of whatever interest rate you think is fair to calculate.

AND;
A $3000 watch is a disposable watch to some people here.

This does not make sense. The value of the materials alone have a high probability of increasing in value, there fore the watch has a high probability to increase in value. something is only worth as much as you can get for it.

The watch thing is not analogous to tools, other than a watch being a tool to measure time. As an expensive watch can be perceived as a precious item.