Drainage Debacle

[topcok88]

I am starting this thread simply as an example of the actions I took to stop the infamous leaking poured foundation basement tie-bar/form tie/snap tie. I hope that this will provide additional information and insight to what you can do to fix yours also. Please remember this isn't the end all be all and I am positive depending on your geographic location, basement design, other variables this may not be applicable to everyone here.

This all started about a eight months ago. I go to the basement to find a puddle... The puddle was just there! No real trail but I knew it had to be due to the rather large rainstorm that just rolled through.
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Well I looked and looked and looked... There were prior red mud marks down the wall, but no fresh signs. A month or so later my wife sends me a picture of this.
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Now please keep in mind that this only happens on extremely large down pours. So after talking with a neighbor who had a similar problem I decided to see how "tight" or "loose" the form tie was..
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Well that pushed in rather easy for a few strikes of the hammer. So now it was to begin trying to figure out why the hydraulic pressure on the outside wall was enough to force its way through the form tie. I knew it was a drainage issue and that at times my outside underground downspouts would over flow (only two of them) under heavy rain circumstances. I had never really thought of this before but I knew they went into the ground but I didn't know where they came out! And that lead to this...

 

[topcok88]

So me and the little helper spend a few minutes outside locating the exiting drain pipes.
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I guess three exits out of five downspouts isn't terrible. Unfortunately the corner of the basement the leaking is on the garage side of the house, exactly where I couldn't find the two corresponding downspouts!
So the next step was going back and digging out the ends to hopefully get the fluids flowing again! But based on the little bit I could see it appeared to be crushed pretty good.
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So I dig the three out, still concerned on why I cannot find the corresponding two front downspouts. So there is only one thing left to do...

 

[topcok88]

So I started with the one I feel is the worst and causing all the water to be pooling next to the foundation.
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I tried everything! I ran hose water in it until it backed up and over flowed. I tried snaking it out with the hose only to hit an obstruction. But even after all this I STILL did not find where the water was actually going. So I googled, read, and ended up picking up a bladder that expands and puts all the water pressure on the plugged side of the pipe. I shoved it in and began walking around the yard.... And I walked... And walked... Until I found a wet spot about the size of a quarter. No joke. And I dug, because really, what had I to lose!
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Well I found it! Right there! And after I dug it up and unplugged the corresponding break I found the other end thankfully!
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So how far back was this end crushed I asked? Well it was far enough I got tired of digging and seeing the same result.
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And another picture of the broke area after I got it cleaned up for any other storms to help keep it from backing up at the porch.
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[pstnbly]

That black snaky pipe *****.

 

[topcok88]

So wanting to get a second opinion and quotes on fixing or replacing I began to call around. But who do you call? A gutter installer? A leaking basement specialist? A landscaper? Well the correct answer for me was a landscaping company. I called a local "basement specialist" in my area that is well known around the central Virginia area and they were not helpful at all. I explained my problem and they responded that they only fix leaks from the inside and offered a disconnected number for a "dirt moving" company. I politely said I would like to try and fix the issue from the outside by grading and drainage prior to cutting my basement up for a perimeter drain system to the tune of $15k. And yes that is exactly what was being suggested for ONE leaking tie bar... After about ten phone calls to multiple businesses my wife's grandmother provided me the name of her landscaper. And if you knew my wife's grandmother you would know she is extremely picky at who she chooses to both build her houses and does work on them! So called any they were the ones for me. We discusses options, material choices, and that lead me to them doing the work. They started by marking the utility lines and I got the material to the job site. 4" and 6" schedule 40 solid wall, NOT FOAMCORE, PVC. Expensive? Yes, to the tune of $800 but this was truly the best choice for longevity, strength for driving on, and paving over in the future. Plus solid wall PVC is more easily snaked out versus FOAMCORE as I have been told by both them and the plumbing supply company that FOAMCORE can be tore up with rotating cleaning tools.
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Oh yea, the well was put in after the drainage pipe. And yes they cut it in half in 2007 when the house was built...
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And I awaited installation day with materials on site!

 

[topcok88]

So it is installation day and the crew shows up with two trucks, two trailers, two tractors, and three people. They get right to work and start trenching!
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You can see here how we had to work around the footer with out damaging/chipping at it like the previous installers.
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On the lower portion of the house we found that the drain tile and gutter were ran into one drain pipe, so we corrected the issue with a new wye and tied it all together the right way!
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The connections we chose for SDS to schedule 40 PVC solid wall were pliable rubber and it worked great!
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In the mean time another trench was completed while they were working on this one.
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I chose to drain to daylight versus using a pop up emitter. Although freezing temperatures are not as a large concern, I wanted no doubts the water was draining.
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I asked to leave the pipes high so they could come back with fill dirt and add both that and white rock around the perimeter of the house.
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They also filled in the hole.
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Here is how they tied in the drain tile and downspout. All drained to daylight.
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I didn't get great pictures of the front installation but it consists of 4" schedule 40 at the down spouts tied into a 6" PVC wye and 40' of 6" PVC drained to daylight.
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The back corner is complete!
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And here is the back corner of the garage where I had them install it away from the garage due to the footer.
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They also trenched/graded a ditch to divert water from the neighbors property until I could get them back later to completely remove the hill so I could have a parking area next to the garage.
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[topcok88]

And they also graded my driveway to divert water to a new low spot during storms. I plan on having them back to remove the top layer of dirt, use the transit to provide a proper grade, prior to black top. The local black topping company doesn't always do a good job... Ask my two neighbors...
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/126635649@N07/30365112730/in/album-72157675805211676/" title="IMG_1931"><img src="https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5741/30365112730_601574461d_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="IMG_1931"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>And back to "normal". Now to just wait for another big storm to work through to make sure the basement is all good to go!
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/126635649@N07/30628654756/in/album-72157675805211676/" title="IMG_1934"><img src="https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5529/30628654756_0b3eb383ac_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="IMG_1934"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>Now I have yet to plug the hole from the snap tie in the basement. That is my "control" to see if on the next few big rain storms if the water is actually being diverted properly. If that hole does not leak I will then plug it using hydraulic cement. I also plan to grind and plug all other tie bars prior to framing and finishing the walls in my basement.

Thank you all for checking it out and if you have any questions just ask!

Oh and total cost you ask? Well I have about $900 in materials and I paid $900 in labor. So $1800 total. Not terrible for 9 hours of labor and solid wall Schedule 40 PVC.

 

[topcok88]

That black snaky pipe *****.

You are very correct. I guess as far as crush strength goes, if it is buried deep enough it can be pretty strong. My concern was not just that but being able to clean it in the future. I know leaves, roofing granules, and all sorts of junk will end up in the pipes. So my wife and I chose to "Buy Once - Cry Once". I am sure Hancore Pipe, SDR-35, and even FOAMCORE will do. But I wanted something I could feel good about for many more years so solid wall schedule 40 was it.

 

[Norcal]

With a bit of extra thought unnecessary fittings could have been eliminated, turn the 90 (1/4 bend) & use a 45 (1/8 bend), makes for a easier line to snake, & saves a little dough.


www.flickr.com/photos/126635649@N07/30665110945

 

[theoldwizard1]

You are lucky to be on the top of that little hill. That water should come flying out of thos drain pipes !

 

[topcok88]

With a bit of extra thought unnecessary fittings could have been eliminated, turn the 90 (1/4 bend) & use a 45 (1/8 bend), makes for a easier line to snake, & saves a little dough.


www.flickr.com/photos/126635649@N07/30665110945

I agree but the work was performed on a Sunday and we used what extra 4" PVC fittings were available. I atleast used long sweep elbows so that should be more than adequate to snake considering it hooks to a 6" main PVC line. There are a few things I wish I would have done a little different but the extra work would have no doubt cost thousands extra for no real net benefit.

 

[bczygan]

45's were my first thought too, but very nice install!

Why couldn't it be done that way to start with.

Bill

 

[brownbagg]

i dont even have drain pipe, mine comes off the roof to the ground, no gutters at all

 

[topcok88]

You are lucky to be on the top of that little hill. That water should come flying out of thos drain pipes !

Thanks! I actually used your thread as inspiration! Found here http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313369

 

[topcok88]

45's were my first thought too, but very nice install!

Why couldn't it be done that way to start with.

Bill

We were not really anticipating the obstruction with such a large footer. The the long sweep 90s won't be a problem to snake.

 

[topcok88]

i dont even have drain pipe, mine comes off the roof to the ground, no gutters at all

Like I said, all locations vary based on drainage requirements. But I have never heard of draining gutters to the base of a foundation as an acceptable practice. Crawls space, basement, or pad. Water at a foundation I thought was frowned upon, hence drain tile.

 

[KDXSR5]

Thank you for sharing your experience. It is good to see quality work done!

 

[topcok88]

Thank you for sharing your experience. It is good to see quality work done!

Thank you for the compliments! And that's what this forum is for, sharing experience!

 

[Norcal]

I agree but the work was performed on a Sunday and we used what extra 4" PVC fittings were available. I atleast used long sweep elbows so that should be more than adequate to snake considering it hooks to a 6" main PVC line. There are a few things I wish I would have done a little different but the extra work would have no doubt cost thousands extra for no real net benefit.

The job is certainly a MAJOR improvement over the existing ****, but am not a fan of corrugated drain pipe & your having to replace it shows why, as long as the leaves and other debris are kept out it will be a trouble free installation.

 

[topcok88]

The job is certainly a MAJOR improvement over the existing ****, but am not a fan of corrugated drain pipe & your having to replace it shows why, as long as the leaves and other debris are kept out it will be a trouble free installation.

Thank you and I agree. The only way it could have been done better was digging the entire foundation and replacing the perimeter drain/drain tile with perforated PVC. Other than that I love the new install. Now bring on the rain!

 

[theoldwizard1]

i dont even have drain pipe, mine comes off the roof to the ground, no gutters at all

That usually causes dirt splashes back on to the siding. 4"-6" gravel/rock beds on top of landscape cloth under the eaves should take care of most of that.

 

[bczygan]

Like I said, all locations vary based on drainage requirements. But I have never heard of draining gutters to the base of a foundation as an acceptable practice. Crawls space, basement, or pad. Water at a foundation I thought was frowned upon, hence drain tile.

Here in Detroit, all the downspouts drain into vertical pipes connected to outside perimeter drainage at the base of the basement walls. It connects to the sanitary sewer and the combined sewer system.

State law encourages disconnecting them.

Bill

 

[topcok88]

Here in Detroit, all the downspouts drain into vertical pipes connected to outside perimeter drainage at the base of the basement walls. It connects to the sanitary sewer and the combined sewer system.

State law encourages disconnecting them.

Bill

Yea, based on what I have read many localities require the water being shed by a persons man made structures (house, driveway, garages, sheds) be released onto the owners property. Many of these cities that once allowed homes to redirect water to the local sewer system are now disconnecting or even fining individuals for not following updated laws. The additional water shed into the city sewer systems have really taxed them beyond belief and some still dump into major bodies of water. The contaminates from homes, drives, and ever small structures add up I guess. I live in the country with a private well so it doesn't much affect me but people in cities really should be careful on how they plan to redirect the water. At least I don't live in an area with a "rain tax", what a mess.

 

[brownbagg]

we have built a couple walmarts where all the parking lot storm water must remain on site, an average rain is a couple inches. where 10 inch rains are not uncommon

 

[topcok88]

we have built a couple walmarts where all the parking lot storm water must remain on site, an average rain is a couple inches. where 10 inch rains are not uncommon

You bring up a good point. Someone questioned why I chose to use 4" mains and a 6" main for the two front combines drains. I first based it on what was easily available and the absolute maximum I could ever see myself requiring. Using some online calculators to calculate the area of my roof, how much area was being directed to each gutter, and how large each gutter was lead me to it basing on the "100 year rainfall". I plan on upgrading both gutter size and downspout size when I re-side my house to get rid of this awful vinyl siding.

 

[JTG]

Looks great. Make sure you include a follow up after the first good rain.

Are you planning on putting screens of the ends of the drain pipes? They look like inviting holes for critters.

 

[ishiboo]

That black snaky pipe *****.

Yup. Mine worked really well until it stopped a year after I put it in. Seems you have to be too careful.

 

[Casey69]

i've always been hesitant to bury drainpipe for this reason. most people use the corrugated black stuff that's fairly easy to crush.

aside from cosmetics, what's wrong with just using some downspout extensions & running the rainwater away from your property? don't get me wrong, it looks like they did a great job for a reasonable price. i would have just disconnected the buried line & put an downspout extension on it to see if that took care of the problem.

 

[ishiboo]

Yea, based on what I have read many localities require the water being shed by a persons man made structures (house, driveway, garages, sheds) be released onto the owners property. Many of these cities that once allowed homes to redirect water to the local sewer system are now disconnecting or even fining individuals for not following updated laws. The additional water shed into the city sewer systems have really taxed them beyond belief and some still dump into major bodies of water. The contaminates from homes, drives, and ever small structures add up I guess. I live in the country with a private well so it doesn't much affect me but people in cities really should be careful on how they plan to redirect the water. At least I don't live in an area with a "rain tax", what a mess.

It's important to note that there are two sewer systems in many areas - the storm sewers and the sanitary sewers. Around here the storm sewers drain to catch basins and eventually the lakes/rivers, and people are allowed to connect their sump pumps, gutters and other drain tile to the storm sewers.

You are NOT allowed to dump any of this in the sanitary sewers, and those connections are required to be removed as they are found. Plenty of places did that in the past.

 

[ishiboo]

i've always been hesitant to bury drainpipe for this reason. most people use the corrugated black stuff that's fairly easy to crush.

aside from cosmetics, what's wrong with just using some downspout extensions & running the rainwater away from your property? don't get me wrong, it looks like they did a great job for a reasonable price. i would have just disconnected the buried line & put an downspout extension on it to see if that took care of the problem.

It's a pain in the **** to mow around and looks like ****. A good job done with 4" PVC, or very carefully with black corrugated, can work wonders and it's invisible. Unfortunately my run is about 800' long so PVC is not an option for anything except what's immediately next to the house.

 

[topcok88]

Looks great. Make sure you include a follow up after the first good rain.

Are you planning on putting screens of the ends of the drain pipes? They look like inviting holes for critters.

I will continue the thread with both a follow up of rain storms and how I choose to grind, drill, and fill all the snap tie holes around the basement. I choose to drain to daylight on all the piping without any restriction at the ends. I have fairly low concern for animals going up in and if needed can clean the pipes out. I will say that checking and clearing obstructions will be on my annual to-do list as with other common maintenance activities around the house.

 

[topcok88]

i've always been hesitant to bury drainpipe for this reason. most people use the corrugated black stuff that's fairly easy to crush.

aside from cosmetics, what's wrong with just using some downspout extensions & running the rainwater away from your property? don't get me wrong, it looks like they did a great job for a reasonable price. i would have just disconnected the buried line & put an downspout extension on it to see if that took care of the problem.

There is no real issue but more aesthetics and better function for what I require. I would be kicking myself having to move fold down gutters every time I mow. And these pipes are evacuating the water a MINIMUM of 40' away from the foundation of the house. I could not imagine 40'+ of above ground drain pipe at every gutter. Plus where I have to drain to would cross areas, such as across my driveway.

 

[theoldwizard1]

It's important to note that there are two sewer systems in many areas - the storm sewers and the sanitary sewers.

Very hit and miss on any thing built between the 70s - 90s
My sub was built in the mid 50s. One system.

About 10-15 years ago, the storm drains were disconnected and now run straight to rivers/creeks. They could not do this for 100% of the city so much of the ground water still goes to the sanitary sewers.

However, the sanitary overflows now go to HUGE underground tanks (like under a soccer or baseball field) instead of into the creeks/rivers. Over the following week, these tanks are pumped back into the sanitary sewer system.

 

[Empty Pockets]

I have 25 acres, When we built 15 years ago, I ran the gutters into a drainage ditch we dug, using the same white pipe. The ditch diverts the water aboutb 500 feet from the house, into a naturally occuring pond. It's not uncommon to see deer and various other woodland creatures around the pond, especially in the heat of the summer

 

[Empty Pockets]

Note to OP. Handsome boxer you have there

 

[brownbagg]

That usually causes dirt splashes back on to the siding. 4"-6" gravel/rock beds on top of landscape cloth under the eaves should take care of most of that.

i poured two feet of concrete all the way around my house, not because of the rain and no gutter but because i hate to weed eat and i can run the mower on the concrete

 

[strutaeng]

Great job OP. I have a drainage project myself and plan to use PVC. A civil engineer friend of mine said to use SDR-35 instead of Schedule 40, unless I plan on living another 100 years!

I can't even think of using corrugated black pipe, which is widely used by DIYs. I have read that corrugated should only be used for agricultural use, presumably because of the short lifespan and super low cost.

Also, the flow characteristics are superior for smooth walled rigid pipe vs corrugated.

 

[topcok88]

So a follow up on where I am on this project. Around December 6th we had a sizeable rain that allowed me to see how the drainage issues were working out. All the gutters evacuated the water far away from the house but it appears the fill and packing of fill dirt was less than stellar and left a rather large pooling of water in my driveway and VERY spongy area. I immediately went to the basement to find...
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So to try and get the water to run down into the yard and keep it from pooling I dug a shallow trench which worked very well!

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Followed by driving over the area with my cars as a poor mans steam roller in an attempt to pack the fill.

In reality the water that had gotten into the basement was minimal for the size of rain we had and can been seen as a small victory. But when I called the company to ask about the fill compaction and if the could come out and re-grade they said,"Not our problem"... So frustrating to find good work now days.

 

[topcok88]

So here I am and the second wave of rain comes through the area and I get to see how my make shift work has done...

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Not a drip! So I am finally getting excited but it makes me realize how fragile the situation really is and how such a small change in grade and water pooling can make in hydraulic pressure can make on an area below grade.

So I called around and got quotes on different solutions to fix this problem. The first company to show up provides the "solution" from inside. They wanted to cut the base of all my perimeter walls (160 feet), install a trough, install 2 sealed sump pits, and cover all the walls with a membrane that would direct the water to the base of the wall into the trough... I was expecting and asked about urethane injection into the snap tie holes but they insisted "this is the only option". And then they told me the price, $14,979.00. Two hours and forty-five minutes of my life for a solution so extreme it was laughable.

Then came a construction/excavation/concrete guy who has really helped me out. He has seen it before and said with a better grading job I can simply use hydraulic water stop cement and will be fine. So he is going to do some major earth moving and grading after the first of the year and will be documented going forward on this thread.

 

[topcok88]

So here is how I am going to fix and/or seal all my snap ties on my poured concrete foundation. I start by using a 3" wide cold chisel to knock off the large protrusion and then use a 4" concrete grinding disc to knock down the high spot on and around the snap tie and also provide a good surface for the hydraulic water stop to "bite" into.

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The use a small cold chisel (I used a 5/8") to make a pocket around the snap tie for the cement to seal around it. I know that they recommend deeper/different angles but I felt this is sufficient and already my prep is going above and beyond what is suggested.

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And then you mix and apply the hydraulic water stop cement as directed. In a future post I will explain and provide pictures.