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New epoxy floor: can't get rid of fumes!!! Help!

adadirect

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Wait, what?

Did you get any expert opinions from anyone OTHER than the people paying for this?

No we didn't, the contractor came by after our request pretty quickly and admitted this is an issue so we never thought we would need to. Not much we can do now besides waiting - and if it doesn't work we'll push for them to remove the old layer.
 
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Antoddio

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Well, that seems like a really bad solution. Did they tell you which product they used for each application(either time)? They shouldn't hesitate to provide you the specifics.
 

ard

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No we didn't, the contractor came by after our request pretty quickly and admitted this is an issue so we never thought we would need to. Not much we can do now besides waiting - and if it doesn't work we'll push for them to remove the old layer.

And in a few years, when the floor starts failing, do you think these jokers will be quick to redo the floor?!?

You can still get an expert second opinion as to 'is this the appropriate corrective action" (to recoat a floor that has not cured properly)

No doubt they can cover it up for a while- issue may be well down the road..
 

adadirect

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My husband did mention the concern of covering up the old layer with a new one with the contractor, but they said they've never encountered this problem so they are going to give that a try. We are going to contact them again to get the product info that they used and re-iterate our concern, but we feel a bit trapped in this situation since they are the contractors that our developer hired, not us personally. If the new coating doesn't work, then we will force them to grind down both layers.
 

Antoddio

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My husband did mention the concern of covering up the old layer with a new one with the contractor, but they said they've never encountered this problem so they are going to give that a try. We are going to contact them again to get the product info that they used and re-iterate our concern, but we feel a bit trapped in this situation since they are the contractors that our developer hired, not us personally. If the new coating doesn't work, then we will force them to grind down both layers.

Sounds like you aren't dealing with the cream of the crop here.
 

adadirect

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Sounds like you aren't dealing with the cream of the crop here.

Oh yes I completely agree with that....after multiple other issues with our house we realized our builder didn't exactly hire high quality contractors. That's the problem with a booming real estate market and shortage of contractors I guess....
 

ard

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My husband did mention the concern of covering up the old layer with a new one with the contractor, but they said they've never encountered this problem so they are going to give that a try. We are going to contact them again to get the product info that they used and re-iterate our concern, but we feel a bit trapped in this situation since they are the contractors that our developer hired, not us personally. If the new coating doesn't work, then we will force them to grind down both layers.

That's why I mentioned a second opinion. In the end it is YOUR home. They dont get to experiment on your floor. If you had a quality vendor come out and told you "the manufacturer will not warrant a coating that is applied over a floor that has curing issues. Therefore I cannot recommend that" you simply turn around and tell the builder "your proposal is unacceptable, you cannot proceed. Either grind it or I call my lawyer"

Doesnt matter who hired them.

(Heck, no second opinion- "Ive reviewed the manufacturer literature and it is clear that your proposal is not in compliance with their stated, published procedures- so you cannot proceed...." The problem is that most homeowners give these clowns way more credit and authority that they deserve.)
 

southview

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Don't re top coat without grinding! I had a custom floor done and had a problem with the clear. Contractor scuffed and applied another top coat of poly 3 days later. I could still smell the poly from the first job and recommended we not proceed until it was done outgassing and the smell was gone. He proceeded and 1 year later my floor doesn't smell. But it still prints if I put something heavy on it and is rubbery feeling. Not easy to clean. Most marks will disappear or heal within a few days now. What a mess! Insist they sand and give it time to cure before attempting to re coat.
 

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kenneyd

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I did the epoxy on my 1200 ft shop. The smell was gone in a day.
then I did a epoxy eurathane top coat. The surface was soft, smell never went away. Turns out norklad sent out the wrong containers and the mixing ratio was way off.
They sent me a wet cure product and i topped the floor, smell instantly gone.
Its still not at strong as it should be though . Norklad *****

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
 

Antoddio

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I did the epoxy on my 1200 ft shop. The smell was gone in a day.
then I did a epoxy eurathane top coat. The surface was soft, smell never went away. Turns out norklad sent out the wrong containers and the mixing ratio was way off.
They sent me a wet cure product and i topped the floor, smell instantly gone.
Its still not at strong as it should be though . Norklad *****

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Norklad is a great vendor of products. Everything I order on-line always shows up at my door 2 days later. They have a great selection and ship out quick. It's the most convenient place to get epoxy hands down.
 

Thirdyfivepickup

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Interesting stuff, but I'm bracing myself for an expensive nightmare of tearing it down to the studs and rebuilding. Not fun.

It's a very interesting read and a lot of things to help people who may want to do epoxy floors in the future.

I just pray they can come up with a solution other than gutting the place and starting over.
 
OP
D

Dave-H

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UPDATE:

Over $2000 of air testing and consultation and we've learned a bit.

1) The IAQ guys went through everything in the room, and looked for anything that might be the source of the fumes. The key suspects are still the spray foam and the floor, but there may be some random factor that nobody thought of.

2) They tested for a few things, based on the MSDS of the spray foam and the floor. What we learned was:

- none of the typical gasses that would come from foam insulation, like isocyantes, were detected
- there was high level of xylene, which is listed in the MSDS for the polyspartic floor coating
- there was also formaldehyde present during the test, which is an oddball finding and it's not clear what that means

So, there is some evidence that points to the floor. There are a lot of moving parts here so it's not conclusive, but it's good to have some data that leads to a next step.

Next steps:

I'm going to rent a portable storage unit, have it dropped off, and load everything from the garage into it. Only the walls/floors/paint/fixtures will still be present. We'll ventilate aggressively for a few days after that, and then do another test. If the VOCs are down, that indicates that there was probably something in the room that was the source, and it's now in the storage unit.

If the VOCs persist, time to rip out that floor!
 

PT Doc

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That's why I mentioned a second opinion. In the end it is YOUR home. They dont get to experiment on your floor. If you had a quality vendor come out and told you "the manufacturer will not warrant a coating that is applied over a floor that has curing issues. Therefore I cannot recommend that" you simply turn around and tell the builder "your proposal is unacceptable, you cannot proceed. Either grind it or I call my lawyer"

Doesnt matter who hired them.

(Heck, no second opinion- "Ive reviewed the manufacturer literature and it is clear that your proposal is not in compliance with their stated, published procedures- so you cannot proceed...." The problem is that most homeowners give these clowns way more credit and authority that they deserve.)
K
Well stated. I feel like many subcontractors that are hired, do not understand and do not want to understand that details of the product they are working with. They want to rush through knowing that they will not be coming out again since they won't be returning your calls. Any calls from the builder will likely not occur since they have tried to solve the problem. I would document in writing what was done and your concerned so you have a paper trail. Is everything paid in full? I think if not then you should be ok. If yes, then you will quickly find out how ethical everyone you are dealing with is.
 

PT Doc

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To all the flooring specialists that have bee part of this thread: was is reasonable and acceptable to apply an epoxy floor in the garage of the op based on the temps that were reported during that week?
 
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Dave-H

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To all the flooring specialists that have bee part of this thread: was is reasonable and acceptable to apply an epoxy floor in the garage of the op based on the temps that were reported during that week?

I'm curious to hear the answer. For the record the material was polyspartic polyurethane and the application instructions, which I got from the manufacturer, indicate that the floor temp should be 50 degrees or higher.

Floor temps were in the high 20's to low 30's, and were much colder near the garage door which was left open a few inches to provide more ventilation.

I had an email dialog with the installer where I expressed concern repeatedly about the temperature and was repeatedly assured that it would be just fine.
 

LegacyIndustrial

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To all the flooring specialists that have bee part of this thread: was is reasonable and acceptable to apply an epoxy floor in the garage of the op based on the temps that were reported during that week?

20's and 30's ?? I would not advise applying any of our coating products below 32. Too many variables to consider...frozen moisture in slab, slab freeze/thaw movement, etc...That said, I know that some have applied our Nohr-S Polyurea below freezing and theoretically the polyaspartics can go that cold too.

The only feedback I recall from a "below 32 job" was the applicator's nose was running and falling into the coating as he rolled it.

We have a freezer grade epoxy repair patch than can go to -20 and xtreme-set 100 polyurea can go pretty close to that as well. These are used regularly by a string of frozen-food companies we supply. Never an issue.

In regards to this situation, it is very possible it was not mixed correctly or the product was out of ratio. These are errors that can cause a product not to fully catalyze.
 
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NCar

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Dave-H - was curious what ever came of this. Were you ultimately able to resolve it?

I have a very similar situation - had an epoxy coating applied last November, expressed concern to vendor about the temperature, they said it would be no problem at all... They applied the coating at about 40 degrees, we left the doors open a crack for a full month... and it's stunk badly all winter. Smell is very slightly less intense now, but every time the floor gets wet (e.g., if I spray it down to clean it), it comes right back. We're just getting to warmer weather so we'll see how that changes things.

Anyway - it seems like we may be somewhere near the beginning of a similar road to the one you'd been traveling; would love to hear what's happened since the thread trailed off last summer - and if you've found any solutions that weren't mentioned above?
 
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Dave-H

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Yea I don't see any solution except to remove the floor. With the right equipment, it's actually pretty easy. Do it mechanically for the bulk of it, then chemically for the cracks and crevices.

with big chunks of floor pulled it up, it was obvious what had happened. The initial layer was poured on a cold floor, and they didn't leave much time before the next layer was cured. As a result, the initial layer never really cured completely, but the 2nd layer sort of sealed it in. But slowly and surely the odor would come out.

If you find a spot on your floor where you can take a chisel, try pulling up layers and if you have the same situation I did you'll know right away.

My installer made me take him to court for all the expenses, then settled for the full amount the morning of court!

Just one piece of advice: A 'sometimes' stinky floor really gets and is stressful because you don't know what's going to happen. Don't be like me and wait 9 months to get serious about this. Run a heater in there and cook the floor for a few days, then run some fants and ventilate for a few days. Then seal up the room and wait. If the smell comes back, stop everything and push the installer to remove the floor.

If he doesn't remove it, have someone else remove it and pour a new floor. I regret all the time I spent hoping I wouldn't have to remove the floor!
 

Strouty

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Glad it ended up getting fixed, I can’t imagine waiting that long to use my space over a crappy installation of epoxy flooring. The whole thing sounds like a stinky situation.
 

ard

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Yea I don't see any solution except to remove the floor. With the right equipment, it's actually pretty easy. Do it mechanically for the bulk of it, then chemically for the cracks and crevices.

with big chunks of floor pulled it up, it was obvious what had happened. The initial layer was poured on a cold floor, and they didn't leave much time before the next layer was cured. As a result, the initial layer never really cured completely, but the 2nd layer sort of sealed it in. But slowly and surely the odor would come out.

If you find a spot on your floor where you can take a chisel, try pulling up layers and if you have the same situation I did you'll know right away.

My installer made me take him to court for all the expenses, then settled for the full amount the morning of court!

Just one piece of advice: A 'sometimes' stinky floor really gets and is stressful because you don't know what's going to happen. Don't be like me and wait 9 months to get serious about this. Run a heater in there and cook the floor for a few days, then run some fants and ventilate for a few days. Then seal up the room and wait. If the smell comes back, stop everything and push the installer to remove the floor.

If he doesn't remove it, have someone else remove it and pour a new floor. I regret all the time I spent hoping I wouldn't have to remove the floor!

Good advice that I think applies to a lot of situations....

Too often the homeowner hopes it will be ok, or hopes it will be better or believes the mitigation being spun by the vendor.

While it is nice to allow a vendor to be stand up, it is also important not to be stood on....
 
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LegacyIndustrial

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Be careful regarding shutting the door post install. Good ventilation allows the temporary smell to escape vs. hanging on walls and any objects in the room.

Granted your installer likely placed subsequent coats over an un-cured coating to create an issue... this is a very rare occurrence.




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NCar

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Yea I don't see any solution except to remove the floor. With the right equipment, it's actually pretty easy. Do it mechanically for the bulk of it, then chemically for the cracks and crevices.

with big chunks of floor pulled it up, it was obvious what had happened. The initial layer was poured on a cold floor, and they didn't leave much time before the next layer was cured. As a result, the initial layer never really cured completely, but the 2nd layer sort of sealed it in. But slowly and surely the odor would come out.

If you find a spot on your floor where you can take a chisel, try pulling up layers and if you have the same situation I did you'll know right away.

My installer made me take him to court for all the expenses, then settled for the full amount the morning of court!

Just one piece of advice: A 'sometimes' stinky floor really gets and is stressful because you don't know what's going to happen. Don't be like me and wait 9 months to get serious about this. Run a heater in there and cook the floor for a few days, then run some fants and ventilate for a few days. Then seal up the room and wait. If the smell comes back, stop everything and push the installer to remove the floor.

If he doesn't remove it, have someone else remove it and pour a new floor. I regret all the time I spent hoping I wouldn't have to remove the floor!

Thanks much, DaveH - we're having some basic air quality testing done to see if anything sticks out and will meet with the vendor next week. If we don't get any traction, we may end up grinding it off, too.
 

NCar

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Just a little nudge to DaveH in case you have notifications turned on in this thread - ha da couple of additional thoughts that could wander off topic, so sent you a PM whenever you get a chance. Thanks!
 

lkgordon

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I'm giving this post a little bump cause I'm hoping to find out what happened in NCar's case. I'm having the exact same problem--epoxy gives off a slight odor but when wet it stinks quite badly. It's been nearly a year since it was applied.

I'd love to know what happened. We are meeting with the contractor in a few days--seems unlikely they will volunteer to grind it off and start over. PM or reply here. Thanks!
 

Denali

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Just like Dave-H, I have had a nightmare with a garage that won't stop off-gassing, even after running three high velocity fans 24x7 pushing/pulling air at the door. The installer applied an epoxy floor with polyaspartic/polyurea clear coat, just like Dave had done initially.

We recently learned that the installer added over half a gallon of xylenes for every gallon of clear coat. They also supposedly added xylenes to the colored epoxy layer.

Can anyone in the industry chime in on that ratio of xylenes to clear? It sounds really extreme to me.

The products they used were all described as low/no VOC on their data sheets. It seems like a huge scam to claim low/no VOC products and then add quarts of straight xylenes before applying it.

Any thoughts? Feel free to PM also. Thanks!
 

Shea

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Xylene is sometimes used as a thinner for high solids coatings in order to create a primer coat that will penetrate better.. You shouldn't use more than 10-15% Xylene per volume of coating.

It sounds to me like they were trying to save money on materials by thinning it out. You did not get what you paid for in materials, that is for sure. I'm surprised the color coat looked OK as that much thinning could cause the concrete underneath to bleed through. The coating should be completely removed.

I would tell them to refund your money and grind the coating off at the same time. Then hire a company with the proper credentials to do it right.
 
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LegacyIndustrial

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Xylene is sometimes used as a thinner for high solids coatings in order to create a primer coat that will penetrate better.. You shouldn't use more than 10-15% Xylene per volume of coating.

It sounds to me like they were trying to save money on materials by thinning it out. You did not get what you paid for in materials, that is for sure. I'm surprised the color coat looked OK as that much thinning could cause the concrete underneath to bleed through. The coating should be completely removed.

I would tell them to refund your money and grind the coating off at the same time. Then hire a company with the proper credentials to do it right.



Shea nailed it.


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Jazz1

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Update on this: We had someone come and run a thermal fogger loaded with OdorX. Hard to tell if the original smell is still there, because the place stinks of the deodorizing product (a sort of strange floral smell, sort of like bubble gum). But, it's expected that smell won't linger long and it's already reducing nicely.

It's warm out today and the whole place is open, so hopefully we'll know what's what as soon as tomorrow!

It could be gum scent they were using. I hauled powder for many years and two of the manufacturers added gum scent to their ammonia nitrate to mask the odour of diesel.
 

Denali

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Thanks guys, I really appreciate your input!

I have gotten a new quote from another installer to remove the existing coating and replace with genuinely low-VOC products. They say that it will be very difficult (and expensive, around $5/sqft just for removal) to remove the defective coating down to bare concrete. It sounds like they don't think they'll be able to use their large floor grinder on the flats and are planning on doing a lot of hand grinding with angle grinders. They think their big grinder will just skip over the coating and not really dig in. It also sounds like there's a lot of hand work to remove from the stem walls.

To add insult to injury, the franchise installer that caused the problem isn't taking any responsibility. They won't remove the floor and are actually trying to bill me for this toxic mess they created.
 

Denali

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Quick update: We are in the process of having the coating removed and replaced by a reputable installer. It's been months, but the garage still smells terrible when we turn off the fans and close the overhead door. There are other threads on the forum that sound like others are having similar issues with odor, possibly due to disreputable installers: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=436631 I'll update once the removal starts for anyone interested in how that process goes.
 

88carrera

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Denali, I'm glad to have the thread about my similar story referenced, but am not comfortable leaving the implication that my installer was disreputable. He's an experienced franchisee of a national company and has done everything I've asked of him. He seems as mystified as I am by the much stronger/longer lingering odor and while some sort of human error (perhaps poor mixing?) could have contributed to the problem, I can't point to any evidence to suggest this. This said, we may have suffered different issues as mine doesn't seem as persistant as yours. It might just be the cold weather, but the smell has fallen off notably in the past two weeks. If it comes roaring back in the spring I'll be looking for other solutions too.
 

Denali

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Carrera, my floor was also installed by an experienced franchisee of a national company, fully licensed and bonded, and was not the lowest bidder by far. He also admitted to doing things that other coatings professionals have labeled as dishonest and disreputable.

I would encourage you to compare your experience with that of Dave-H and myself, as your story sounds eerily familiar. If your installer added excessive amounts of solvents to your floor coatings (to increase their profits at your expense), it can cause VOC/odor issues that last seemingly indefinitely.

My IAQ sensor in the garage proved that the severity of odor was directly linked to total VOC levels in the garage. The higher the VOC levels, the worse the odor. VOC levels and odor always went up when the space was sealed up. VOC levels also varied according to garage air temperature. The higher the temperature in the garage, the faster the VOC levels rose. The garage air temperature is a function of the outdoor temperature, as the garage is unheated and uninsulated.

You are probably in a lull right now because your slab is cold and the coating is not emitting at as high a rate as when it was hot out. I bet that you would smell the odor like you did before if you thoroughly heated your garage. Based on how long the odor lasted for me and Dave-H, I would also expect that if you wait, you will start getting bad odor problems again once it starts heating up in the spring.

Have you ever considered that your installer is lying to you? He may only seem to be as mystified as you as to the cause of your odor issues.
 
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Denali

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Final update for anyone else experiencing persistent solvent odor issues with their new epoxy floor:

The coating needed to be completely removed from all surfaces, just like Dave-H had to do. This was a very difficult, laborious, and expensive process. The entire floor needed to be hand ground with a diamond cup wheel to remove the majority of the coating. Hand grinding also included all of the stem walls. The wood trim all had to be removed to get at the top surface of the stem walls, beneath the drywall.

Once the coating was completely off of the stem walls and mostly off of the flats of the floor, I pressure washed the entire floor multiple times. I then set up high velocity fans and kept the door open for a couple weeks to encourage any residual solvent in the slab to off-gas.

Be prepared for some chunking/divots in the concrete from all the grinding, especially on the stem walls.

Once the coating was ready to go down, the huge walk behind grinder was brought in to resurface the slab.

All of the chunking/divots were then filled and the new coating was applied.

I chose a water-based epoxy with a water-based polyurethane clear coat. When it was still wet, the coating had a very mild odor, similar to latex paint. After it dried, the odor quickly went away. After a couple of weeks, there was absolutely no odor. Zero, zilch.

The trim all had to be thrown away and replaced because it was partly coated with epoxy and stunk.

My suggestion to anyone with a solvent odor in a new epoxy floor that won't go away (after months): Remove every last speck of it. Even small pieces would absolutely reek of solvents. Using a water-based epoxy and polyurethane clear coat worked great in the end.

Caveat emptor: After talking with a bunch of local installers, it sounds like disreputable ones are adding crazy amounts of solvents like xylenes so they can try to extend the coating, so they don't have to use as much, saving them money. If your floor smells like someone spilled solvents all over it and the smell just won't go away, you should get ahold of your state's contractor licensing board and have another (hopefully more reputable) contractor come out and take a look and a whiff.
 

irislevy

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Hi,

We have a very similar problem.

It’s been 6 months and we still have the odors, we had the 2 coatings finally removed about 5 weeks ago by a different vendor.

The original contractor finally admitted that they added Xylene and we believe its gotten into the concrete.

How many times did you power wash the floor and did you add anything to the power washer? One Last question, what type of power washer did you use.

Thanks.
 
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dmchao

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Hi everyone, I like many of you had a polyaspartic coating with flakes put down in our basement, and midway through the smell of Xylene became too much for me. I told the contractor who let the base layer cure for 2 days and then switched to a 100% solids epoxy top coat instead of continuing with Polyaspartic with heavy solvent in it. My wife is also 13 weeks pregnant so this was a major safety driver for me. It was unknown to me during the quoting phase how much solvent they were going to use, the salesman did make it seem safer than reality. I moved her to my mother's condo for a week during this process, and kept fans going on 24/7 for literally 7 days. I ordered the below product and it took 4 days to get to me but it was well worth it. I am fortunate to have designed in zoned HVAC into our basement remodel, as ventilation was key and obviously difficult in an enclosed space. I cranked the heat to 74F for the entirety of the 7 days while circulating with large CFM fans in all rooms once the topcoat was dry. I was originally blowing air around and out of the home, but I decided to change strategies by bringing fresh air inside from outdoors, and using my basement exhaust fan to evacuate old air. This was slow, but effective, as my exhaust fan is only 110CFM.

The following filter came from the grow industry, but helped me get back living in my own home :).
Terrorbloom 8" filter with 8" intake fan. They have smaller ones, but based on CFM I wanted to circulate I chose 8". They also have a 10".
Imagine basically the smell of a "grow", and this product is designed to neutralize in-line HVAC.

Its super easy to put together and it contains about 30 lbs of impregnated carbon, which is ideal for this scenario.
In 3 days all the smell was gone. The 1st day I noticed the sickly sweet smell eliminated to about 95%.

All in all, this is probably my last venture into a coated floor, but I was able to mitigate most of my issues.
 

k77

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Dec 24, 2023
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I have in the past simmered White Distilled Vinegar to absorb the smell of enamel in my garage. Simmering the Vinegar vaporizes the acetic acid the vinegar contains. Because acetic acid easily bonds with volatile molecules, a light mist of it will banish odor from your garage.
 

dmchao

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@k77 , I also tried the boiling vinegar method. It just didn't seem to do as much as the constant filtration. This was an easier set/forget method but of course cost about $200. The contractor footed the bill as well as a duct cleaning for dust afterward.
 
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red j

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@dmchao, Can you report that your carbon filtration worked long-term? I have a similar situation after PPG Amerlock + 688 Polyaspartic on my garage build and am going to use a carbon filter to attempt to get things under control.
 
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