Craftsman from China - really that bad?

[Jtels85]

Exactly what everyone else is saying... the quality and SKU’s May have stayed the same, but the prices didn’t.

Why am I going to pay $49.99 retail for a Chinese made Craftsman 6 Pc. Ball end hex socket set when I can purchase the same set, made in the same country, with the same mediocre quality, for 1/5 of that price?

Why would I purchase an incomplete 7 Pc. torx socket set for $39.99 retail at Sears when I can go anywhere else and get a 9 to 13 Pc. set of the same or better quality for 1/2 that price?

Sears has some bargains on their tools, and others are just downright insane. There’s no real rhyme or reason to their price points.

 

[sberry]

I agree individual and small sets are probably too much. Big sets a bargain.

 

[BK13]

I bought my dad a 1/4” set that must have been one of the last USA made socket sets. The RP ratchet was horrible, it would auto-reverse, skip, or the QR would have a mind of it’s own. I can’t imagine a Chinese made ratchet being any worse...

If I thought he was ever going to use it again, I’d replace that ratchet with a Taiwan Gearwrench 120XP or one of the new SK or Proto 90 tooth ratchets.


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[thwaller]

Are we talking about Sears Craftsman or SB&D Craftsman? At this point Sears may not even have a Chinese replacement for a failed tool.

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I did not consider that. I will say I referred to Sears Craftsman (China) in my original post here, as SB&D tools are sill coming with the newly made in USA Craftsman (with global materials). Craftsman retained the rights to sell Craftsman tools for like 10 more years or something like that. But I do wonder how that will work... are we going to see 2 versions of each tool (maybe it is already this way?) and if one breaks, can you get a replacement of the other? I assume that is yes based on the verbiage of the warranty, but that would then mean I can warranty exchange a China product for a new USA product... once the rollout is complete.

 

[AreYaSerious]

My question is are the sockets really that bad?

 

[AreYaSerious]

Nobody has as poor quality, overall, as Harbor Freight.

True.

 

[thwaller]

My question is are the sockets really that bad?

That is exactly my question I pose to others here. I have one standard 1/2 drive socket, a couple of 1/2 drive deep sockets, and a few torx and e-torx sockets. The rest of my set is all USA Craftsman. With the ones I have, I cannot really tell / see a difference from the China to USA product. Using them, I also do not feel or experience any differences, and none have broke.

The thought in my mind as I posted this question is that I was turned off of Craftsman in China by others, not my own experiences. I was in a position where I really had no choice but to get the first from China. It seemed just fine, so I tried a few others and that is where I am today. I need to be honest and say I do not think that being made in China is a reason to not buy the product. I do support US made products, but I also want the better product (quality / cost ratio the best).

Others had different experiences, and I think those are helpful. The lobster wrench issue is for sure an issue, and I appreciate the threads on that as I am not educated, although I no longer see that design. I am tempted to add a set of sockets, like a 3/8 drive metric/SAE basic selection set, and toss them into use with my USA ones and alternate them and really see with more effort the differences, if any. People are breaking both China and USA tools, but I have yet to see anything that shows China Craftsman breaks at a higher percentage than the USA equivs.

 

[WWheeler]

My opinion is that no it's not really that bad but for the price and with gj and other internet sources better tools for equal or less money can be found. And really great tools can be found for just a small amount more than China craftsman sells for.

I'm not sure this is true, at least not when taking into account Sears' 'Shop Your Way' points as they are practically, and many times actually, giving Craftsman tools away for free or very close to it. In the last few years I've picked up from Sears dozens of Craftsman branded tools, some of them still 'Made in USA', and some were completely free after the 'FREECASH' whenever they are giving away $5 or $10 or more with little or no min purchase. They seem to cycle back and fro bet $5/$10 Freecash and '$30/$50 min/no minimum. I usually (but not always) wait for the 'no minimum purchase' promotions when they are giving money away I'll drive by after work and see what I can get, like a titanium forstner bit set, bent-nose pliers, USA USA bent diagonal pliers & torx driver sets or a Vessel Japan impact screwdriver set, or just some 5gal buckets, all for more than half off and sometimes free. I'm just sayin'. Tekton and Sunex and GearWrench and ... don't actually come close to matching Craftsman $ for $ in many cases.

 

[thwaller]

I'm just sayin'. Tekton and Sunex and GearWrench and ... don't actually come close to matching Craftsman $ for $ in many cases.

I can agree with this from my experiences as well, and I do not have Sears points or what ever they are. Making sure to point out though that "many cases" is key as it does not always apply. I find the current lineup a good value, but it is the quality I question. I have USA Craftsman tools 20+ years old. Will the China ones last just as long given the same usage? I don't abuse my tools, but I will use them hard.

 

[Negen]

I'm not sure this is true, at least not when taking into account Sears' 'Shop Your Way' points as they are practically, and many times actually, giving Craftsman tools away for free or very close to it. In the last few years I've picked up from Sears dozens of Craftsman branded tools, some of them still 'Made in USA', and some were completely free after the 'FREECASH' whenever they are giving away $5 or $10 or more with little or no min purchase. They seem to cycle back and fro bet $5/$10 Freecash and '$30/$50 min/no minimum. I usually (but not always) wait for the 'no minimum purchase' promotions when they are giving money away I'll drive by after work and see what I can get, like a titanium forstner bit set, bent-nose pliers, USA USA bent diagonal pliers & torx driver sets or a Vessel Japan impact screwdriver set, or just some 5gal buckets, all for more than half off and sometimes free. I'm just sayin'. Tekton and Sunex and GearWrench and ... don't actually come close to matching Craftsman $ for $ in many cases.

Well that is not normal shopping but in one of those pictures you have three of the craftsman branded Wilde pry bars I just bought a 17", 12", 4" for 20$ of the Wilde brand no coupon or special pricing. Wall Mart sells the Wilde in a 17" size with a hyper tough logo printed on the Handel for 8$ or so. I am not sure who the OEM is for those micro drivers you have but I am sure they can be had for similar prices with the OEM logo printed on them rather than craftsman. Whenever ratuken (spelling?) Has free shipping and bonus points to spend those vessel drivers you posted about can be had for a song.

But I believe the original poster was asking about new stock China stuff things from official retail markets not secondary markets or gray markets. And so the post of mine you quoted was mainly about Lowe's prices or ace prices and non closeout retail prices at sears. The sears by me is strong and will probably be one of the last to close every time I am there the tool cashier line is at last 10-15 people deep for a few hours.

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[Professional Tool User]

It's more about the consumer getting value for their money. If cost cutting is the motivation for outsourcing, who knows what corners will be cut. That are obviously not going to choose a supplier in China that consistently rolls out decent quality stuff. I've got a lot of other Made in China options I can choose from.

 

[WWheeler]

Well that is not normal shopping but in one of those pictures you have three of the craftsman branded Wilde pry bars I just bought a 17", 12", 4" for 20$ of the Wilde brand no coupon or special pricing. Wall Mart sells the Wilde in a 17" size with a hyper tough logo printed on the Handel for 8$ or so. I am not sure who the OEM is for those micro drivers you have but I am sure they can be had for similar prices with the OEM logo printed on them rather than craftsman. Whenever ratuken (spelling?) Has free shipping and bonus points to spend those vessel drivers you posted about can be had for a song.

But I believe the original poster was asking about new stock China stuff things from official retail markets not secondary markets or gray markets. And so the post of mine you quoted was mainly about Lowe's prices or ace prices and non closeout retail prices at sears. The sears by me is strong and will probably be one of the last to close every time I am there the tool cashier line is at last 10-15 people deep for a few hours.

Just to be clear. Everything I bought and everything I linked to previous posts, was bought at Sears. Sears' 'Shop Your Way' club points are for real (it's not a 'grey market' or whatever that is) and it doesn't cost anything more than an email addy to join, so it's kinda stupid not to. When they are giving away $5/$10 sometimes I'll buy online and pick up at the store, or sometimes I just browse the aisles for a good deal (I don't generally do 'ship to home' from Sears though, as I had a bad experience with that. Amazon they aint). I guess for now I'm still lucky enough to have a store still open that's not far at all out of my way to/from work.

 

[AreYaSerious]

That is exactly my question I pose to others here. I have one standard 1/2 drive socket, a couple of 1/2 drive deep sockets, and a few torx and e-torx sockets. The rest of my set is all USA Craftsman. With the ones I have, I cannot really tell / see a difference from the China to USA product. Using them, I also do not feel or experience any differences, and none have broke.

The thought in my mind as I posted this question is that I was turned off of Craftsman in China by others, not my own experiences. I was in a position where I really had no choice but to get the first from China. It seemed just fine, so I tried a few others and that is where I am today. I need to be honest and say I do not think that being made in China is a reason to not buy the product. I do support US made products, but I also want the better product (quality / cost ratio the best).

Others had different experiences, and I think those are helpful. The lobster wrench issue is for sure an issue, and I appreciate the threads on that as I am not educated, although I no longer see that design. I am tempted to add a set of sockets, like a 3/8 drive metric/SAE basic selection set, and toss them into use with my USA ones and alternate them and really see with more effort the differences, if any. People are breaking both China and USA tools, but I have yet to see anything that shows China Craftsman breaks at a higher percentage than the USA equivs.

I'm thinking about getting the 299 pc socket set. A dollar a socket. I was leaning towards gearwrench sockets but for the dollar amount, craftsman is a better value. So my question with sockets does it really matter? Am I better spending my money on gearwrench sockets or is the craftsman okay? Please keep in mind I will have gearwrench and sk ratchets if that matters. I'm confused.

 

[thwaller]

I'm thinking about getting the 299 pc socket set. A dollar a socket. I was leaning towards gearwrench sockets but for the dollar amount, craftsman is a better value. So my question with sockets does it really matter? Am I better spending my money on gearwrench sockets or is the craftsman okay? Please keep in mind I will have gearwrench and sk ratchets if that matters. I'm confused.

That is exactly what I would like to determine here. In my experience, as limited as it is with China Craftsman, the *new* manufactured product is indistinguishable to me against my made in USA Craftsman's. When looking at a whole set like that, the price is many times hard to beat, and even sometimes tempting you to buy duplicates as it is just such a bargain.

I am still waiting for someone to come with anything to show there is a real difference. China can make the same quality, and the labor will be cheaper. But as the consumer, I have no awareness to the specifications given to the Chinese production. So actual data from actual users is needed, at least in my mind. Baring someone coming to the table with some real facts to show the contrary, I am tending to think that China Craftsman is just fine and not tangibly different from USA Craftsman ... excluding the lobster claw issue and others like it. Common sense still applies.

EDIT: SK in most cases is a better quality product than any Craftsman (they had a very bad period in time), in my opinion as little as that is worth. Gearwrench, not so much, I won't pay more for them.

 

[The Fall]

This topic usually boils down to the fact that Craftsman (or Sears re-branding Danaher, Easco, etc.) was the last USA-made tool manufacturer that was affordable. So folks who liked to buy USA-made tools, even for seldom used items, could keep buying domestically and not have to drop a ton of money at the checkout register. Those days are over. Sears ran a heavy USA-made PR campaign for decades, so the cognitive dissonance still apparent on this board shouldn't be surprising. Old habits die hard (no pun intended).

I work at a hot rod shop part time and I buy a lot of SK, USA Williams and Wright. I've got some of the truck stuff. I do have a few imported tools, mostly for the seldom used stuff -- like a Chinese CMAN hex and Torx socket set. My coworker and I have used that set a lot more than I expected and it's held up totally fine. Conservatively, 80% of my tools -- almost always purchased new -- are USA made. I don't mind paying more because I can afford most of the US industrial tool lines and the quality is there. (For certain tools like flare nut wrenches, you have to pay to play.) My dad and grandfather were union. I inspect and buy quality tools, often from recommendations on this board from many of the knowledgeable contributors.

Look at the tools. CMan's China wrenches leave a lot to be desired and I literally wouldn't take them for free. Their sockets have gotten me by in a pro environment. CMan has definitely lost its luster and there are a lot of other options out there, although the domestic one is costlier now. You don't have to go all HF (like someone did on here) or tool truck.

 

[thwaller]

Thanks "The Fall". You confirmed my opinion of the sockets, which is all I own of CMAN China, is a few sockets. I agree the wrenches, especially with the lobster claw thing, are no good. I do not see the "costlier", but that could very well be an issue of demographics.

Please do not mishear me... I have broken plenty of China tools where I never thought I would get a break. I specifically talk here on the CMAN China tools, made to, I assume, a spec from CMAN that is of some quality vs the discount shelf stuff most people assume applies to all China made products.

 

[Andres26tnt]

i don't understand the Price argument for the most part, most of the craftsman pricing is comparable with tekton and gearwrench and the quality is about the same. In some cases in my experience they have been a bargain.

i have one of the last USA made socket kits and Chinese sockets, they have the exact same quality with the Chinese one having better chrome. not everything is great, the wrenches aren't the best and the RPRT are old and outdated with one of the worst mechanisms i have ever used. The 74t and 84t ratchets are nice and smooth and i really like the line wrenches.

 

[jdoe213]

I like my set. It was made in China. I haven't broken anything out of that set. I have a little rust on a 14 mm. My wife even drove over the blow molded case and it didn't even break.

 

[nutsnbolts]

A few years when I really got into building my tool set, I learned a lot about the value of American made. As a guy that works with my hands, I can relate to the people that work in factories and build tools, even if I do not know them personally. They have a house and a wife and kids and a truck and bills and a hobby or two. I decided that I wanted to buy American as much as possible.

For the most part I have stuck with this. I often buy used American tools on Ebay rather than to buy new Chinese. While this isn't really a purchase that drives the American economy, I see it as a non-purchase of Chinese goods. Occasionally I go against this, like a couple weeks ago when I bought a 3/4" drive ratchet/socket set that I will use rarely, but want to have when I need it.

Something I read not long ago is that China is the fastest growing nation in the world in the area of robotics. For decades we have justified buying Chinese because of the cheap labor costs. Now we are buying Chinese goods that are being built by robots. I agree that Bob in Akron, Ohio can't compete with the little Chinese guy when it comes to wages, but I am confident that an American robot can outwork a Chinese robot, especially if we don't have to ship it across the Pacific. So F$%k Craftsman.

 

[thwaller]

I agree that Bob in Akron, Ohio can't compete with the little Chinese guy when it comes to wages, but I am confident that an American robot can outwork a Chinese robot, especially if we don't have to ship it across the Pacific. So F$%k Craftsman.

With all due respect, I asked specifically for this type of comment to be avoided. I get you have a preference regardless of quality or anything, and want to buy USA no matter what. But that is an ideological approach, and for those looking for real tangible facts, that approach is invalid. Again no disrespect, everyone everywhere has a right to their opinion, but I also have a right to mine, as OP, that this is not desired in my thread.

Bring something to the table to show that your approach that just simply making something in the USA makes it better, then post again. I would love to see some meat, that is the point of the thread.

 

[thwaller]

I figured I would back up my statements of wanting some facts. So, I have just purchased a 9 piece set of Craftsman China metric and SAE, 10mm to 19mm and 3/8 to 7/8. I can share my input based on real fact, although I am unsure if I am willing to push them to breaking point yet or not.

For those price people, I paid $9.88 per set, so basically $1.10 per socket. These are standard length, not deep and are 3/8 drive, which I believe is most common. Each and every one of these sockets is a duplicate of a currently own and well used Craftsman USA socket.

 

[nutsnbolts]

With all due respect, I asked specifically for this type of comment to be avoided. I get you have a preference regardless of quality or anything, and want to buy USA no matter what. But that is an ideological approach, and for those looking for real tangible facts, that approach is invalid. Again no disrespect, everyone everywhere has a right to their opinion, but I also have a right to mine, as OP, that this is not desired in my thread.

Bring something to the table to show that your approach that just simply making something in the USA makes it better, then post again. I would love to see some meat, that is the point of the thread.

I apologize, I missed that part I guess.

25 years ago I bought my first tool set, a Craftsman $99 set that came with a lot of stuff. I was all proud of it.

A few days later I was at my friend's shop and noticed that his tools were made by Snap On. I had never heard of Snap On. I asked him if they were as good as my Craftsman tools. He gave me the "Are you kidding me" look.

"You know what the difference is between Crapsman and Snap On?" he asked? "I'll tell you the difference. The mechanic that owns a box full of Crapsman tools is always pissed off at them, and the mechanic with a box full of Snap On tools loves his tools."

I have found this to be absolutely true. This was back when Craftsman were made in the US and well respected. Many people say they cannot justify good tools. Those that can justify them, or guys like me that just buy them anyway, never regret it.

 

[thwaller]

I apologize, I missed that part I guess.

No problem. I just asked for a productive, fact based convo. I can appreciate your statements. But might I ask you this, me not knowing the answer? If Snap On would send their exact specifications to China, who is the "bad guy" here, would the product be better, worse, or the same? In my opinion, it all depends on what the factory is told and paid to do, whether that factory is in US, Japan, Taiwan, China, or where ever. Agree?

I started buying Craftsman (USA) back when I was around 18 or so... once I got tired of taking my dad's tools. This puts time back to around 1994. I did and still do appreciate the fact that my tools are "made in USA". But today, as one who is educated in economics and international business, realize that things made in your home country are not always the best option to the consumer. Thus, I ask which is better, same or lesser quality.

So, I believe, in my limited experience thus far, that USA and China Craftsman, considering the tools I have explicitly named, are tangibly no different in use. I would love to hear someone show me that the China Craftsman failed in direct test against a USA Craftsman... or even the other way around. That would be fact to work with here.

I can recall back when my father purchased a Toyota, this would have been late 80's. Do you know how much.. well... air was blown? You buy that foreign **** and well, you can guess the rest. Today, we know better. I actually still have the motor from that Toyota, and racers of that class and even boat owners still want and use them today. Just as you had experience, I did as well. Mine tells me that you need to look at product itself. Not who made it, where it was made, or anything cosmetic.... but... how does it work? Does it last? Does it break? Is it reliable for what you intend to use it for?

That is all I am saying, and asking others here to respect. Feel free to say Craftsman China *****.... then add here is my proof. Feel free to say Craftsman China is great.... then add here is my proof. That kind of information I believe is valuable to people. Someone saying ... "I don't buy China because China *****" (paraphrasing) ... is not helpful to anyone.

There was a post saying my China CMAN has been working just fine. Great. There was a post saying look at the difference in wrench between CMAN US and China ... China *****. Great. But all that is based on facts.

EDIT: I hesitated, but decided to give a honest polite shot here. As one that knows many wrench grabbers and shovers (jerking professionally), one reason people do not like Craftsman is they abuse the tool, using it for something other or beyond its intended purpose. Then, they get mad ... it broke. Now I got to get to a Sears. But, when I act that way to my Snap On, and it breaks, the guy in the truck stops in and gives me a new one. YOu know, either because I know the guy (or gal) or I covered up the marks of my abuse. My mejor amiga was a mechanic, professionally, and has a TON of Snap On, MAC, Matco and all that expensive stuff. Since he is not longer doing that, he has added new needs from the Craftsman lineup and even some generic stuff. Guess what? They are still there, I know this because I use them with him. These tools build and fix cars that race in the under 10 second bracket. So... as Craftsman, this must not be possible as only Snap On can do that? I speak not of looks, feel in hand or shine or polish, but fit and function. Period. Kindly, please do prove this point wrong, as you will then educate me. Education is always good.

 

[Tallpilot]

I think this has been a more polite and objective thread than most on this topic. However and with all due respect I think you want to buy a set of Craftsman sockets and are looking for justification or post purchase rationalization.

 

[thwaller]

I think this has been a more polite and objective thread than most on this topic. However and with all due respect I think you want to buy a set of Craftsman sockets and are looking for justification or post purchase rationalization.

Already purchased. I need no justification to spend $20 on a solid set of metric and SAE set. I want to know if they last. So I decided to purchase to decide for myself and maybe help others. Please understand I have 2 full three tier tool chests of tool. I have no need to purchase a socket set. Please see my attached images, and tell me I need a socket set. LOL! One is my tool chests and the other what I had out on my last job. I appreciate your sarcasm, but it is not needed here. I really am fact finding. Seriously Bro.

EDIT: But yes, I agree. Overall, it has been polite, which is what I want, and we should all want. I bought these damn sets to try myself. I have these sockets in 6 and 12 point, deep and standard, impact and non, etc. I want facts, and I am asking for help from others to obtain such facts.

 

[6PTsocket]

True.

Sears does, but for a lot more money. HF is one of the many reasons that Sears will shortly go bankrupt. If you follow the big HF thread, that now has thousands of posts, there are any number of good items mixed in with the bad stuff at HF. It is easy to make broad generalities but they are often not very accurate.

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[6PTsocket]

The key word was "last to close". Soon this will be academic. The end is close. They haven't turned a profit in years. Lambert is running out of gimmicks and stores to close. Sears stock is at 2 bucks and change. They are only open so he can get as much out of it as he can. His realty company is renting closed Sears locations . He has tried to personally buy Kennore, Sears home improvement, Sears Parts Direct and real estate, the only profitable divisions. All these tool "give aways" to create sales volume only have a temporary effect. You don't have to be a financial genius to see that you can't go on selling tools for almost nothing.

Well that is not normal shopping but in one of those pictures you have three of the craftsman branded Wilde pry bars I just bought a 17", 12", 4" for 20$ of the Wilde brand no coupon or special pricing. Wall Mart sells the Wilde in a 17" size with a hyper tough logo printed on the Handel for 8$ or so. I am not sure who the OEM is for those micro drivers you have but I am sure they can be had for similar prices with the OEM logo printed on them rather than craftsman. Whenever ratuken (spelling?) Has free shipping and bonus points to spend those vessel drivers you posted about can be had for a song.

But I believe the original poster was asking about new stock China stuff things from official retail markets not secondary markets or gray markets. And so the post of mine you quoted was mainly about Lowe's prices or ace prices and non closeout retail prices at sears. The sears by me is strong and will probably be one of the last to close every time I am there the tool cashier line is at last 10-15 people deep for a few hours.

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[jsmeece]

I want facts, and I am asking for help from others to obtain such facts.

Facts are based on observations, and several people have presented you their "observation" but you still want "facts," I think you may need a dictionary instead.

 

[L.Cheapo]

I stopped by my local Sears yesterday for the first time in about a year. I was impressed how the tool department was fully stocked--opposite of what it was last time I was in there. I was less impressed how nearly everything said "Made in China" on it. So I poked around a bit, but left with nothing. I fondled a couple punches...they felt way too light for what they were--I have the identical USA made ones I bought in the 90s. Some of the wrenches looked as though they were finished by someone with vision problems in a dark basement.

And of course, the down escalator was broken and torn apart. So you had to find the elevator to leave. I remembered being a young teenager and going to that crowded store every Sunday with my Dad after breakfast and buying a tool or two. I was the only customer on that floor of the store. Sad.

 

[dogdog]

Facts are based on observations, and several people have presented you their "observation" but you still want "facts," I think you may need a dictionary instead.

I don't know if observations can be define as facts... unless you are defining the facts of that observations.

 

[thwaller]

Facts are based on observations, and several people have presented you their "observation" but you still want "facts," I think you may need a dictionary instead.

Sure fact is based on observation, partially. So you cannot read. I did say that the wrench comparison picture of a USA and Chinese version made a statement. Did I not? Maybe you missed that, so I thought it best to remind you of what was said. If you really look at the definition of "fact", you will see it is not ONLY observation. It is observation plus more. Right? Observation is always backed by a logical scientific reasoning. On wrenches, the size, as seen, is obtrusive to some jobs in the case of the lobster claw Chinese wrenches. So just by observation alone, said wrenches are NOT bad, it is only with qualification that they are bad.

I think you may need an education, or at least graduate high school instead of commenting here. Rudeness applied in turn.

 

[dogdog]

Sure fact is based on observation, partially. So you cannot read. I did say that the wrench comparison picture of a USA and Chinese version made a statement. Did I not? Maybe you missed that, so I thought it best to remind you of what was said. If you really look at the definition of "fact", you will see it is not ONLY observation. It is observation plus more. Right? Observation is always backed by a logical scientific reasoning. On wrenches, the size, as seen, is obtrusive to some jobs in the case of the lobster claw Chinese wrenches. So just by observation alone, said wrenches are NOT bad, it is only with qualification that they are bad.
..........

It's GJ man, just accepted that your facts are different from my facts and his facts ,the real facts, the fake facts, or "The Fact"... and move along with the topic,.... without getting into a pointless debate about Facts....

(btw this topic have been beaten to death almost every month in different flavor)

 

[AffableCurmudgeon]

I have no clue what purpose this thread serves. OP says he has been buying Chinese made Craftsman and that he is happy with it. I fail to understand OPs need for approval and validation of his preferences.

 

[jsmeece]

Sure fact is based on observation, partially. So you cannot read. I did say that the wrench comparison picture of a USA and Chinese version made a statement. Did I not? Maybe you missed that, so I thought it best to remind you of what was said. If you really look at the definition of "fact", you will see it is not ONLY observation. It is observation plus more. Right? Observation is always backed by a logical scientific reasoning. On wrenches, the size, as seen, is obtrusive to some jobs in the case of the lobster claw Chinese wrenches. So just by observation alone, said wrenches are NOT bad, it is only with qualification that they are bad.

I think you may need an education, or at least graduate high school instead of commenting here. Rudeness applied in turn.

I think you are the one who needs and education, masters degree here. SO here is it is: a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation. Care on, junior. unsubscribed.

 

[thwaller]

I have no clue what purpose this thread serves. OP says he has been buying Chinese made Craftsman and that he is happy with it. I fail to understand OPs need for approval and validation of his preferences.

I am not trying to validate anything.I want to hear from others... is the quality of CMAN China vs USA actually different? Why is this so hard to understand? I have one experience. There are thousands of applications around the world. I have seen maybe 5% of that total? Given that, does the other 95% not have a say? When you gather statistics and fact, you need a larger sample size. So you see, all opinions based on fact matter. I do not like buying CMAN China, but I question if they are really worse or not. And to be honest, my experience is not enough to answer that.

 

[thwaller]

I think you are the one who needs and education, masters degree here. SO here is it is: a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation. Care on, junior. unsubscribed.

I will cease to post, if all you bring to the table is a single masters degree. That is just plain rude and insulting, and I only responded in kind. I am happy someone gave you a masters degree. I was there once. LOL! *****.

 

[thwaller]

I intend not to convert anyone. I clearly stated that someone saying the new CMAN ***** because _____ is wanted. If you say they compete with Harbor Freight, prove it. That is all I am asking. Show me something. Why is that so hard to understand... to backup and support what you say? Are the China CMAN breaking faster? I do not care what is made where. My point is I hear that CMAN China *****... because it is from China. Ok, well is there fact to support it? Is it wrong to ask people to provide facts?

As I ALREADY stated... the comparison between wrenches with the lobster claw design, completely valid. They are made in China so it *****, not valid. I also stated explicitly that other experiences might be different than mine, thus me asking this question and explicitly asking for both sides, good and bad, with fact/proof.

Some people, well most, have responded in a great way. It came to one person and one person alone who decided that his mail order masters degree makes him some sort of god, and that he is more degreed and more intelligent than all others here. Sorry to say buddy... a masters degree might be big years ago, but not anymore. People multi-major their masters, and there is a thing called a PhD (no mail order options there), but I hate to talk over the head of a master degree recipient.

This became pointless, so it might as well just be done here. I really think those that responded with intelligence, and sorry it ended with a person with a masters degree. Do yourself a favor, do not flaunt a masters degree to me unless you are sure you are actually more educated. Good day, have fun with that false ego.

 

[Y00PER]

I often buy used American tools on Ebay rather than to buy new Chinese. While this isn't really a purchase that drives the American economy, I see it as a non-purchase of Chinese goods.

I'm the same way.

 

[jsmeece]

I intend not to convert anyone. I clearly stated that someone saying the new CMAN ***** because _____ is wanted. If you say they compete with Harbor Freight, prove it. That is all I am asking. Show me something. Why is that so hard to understand... to backup and support what you say? Are the China CMAN breaking faster? I do not care what is made where. My point is I hear that CMAN China *****... because it is from China. Ok, well is there fact to support it? Is it wrong to ask people to provide facts?

As I ALREADY stated... the comparison between wrenches with the lobster claw design, completely valid. They are made in China so it *****, not valid. I also stated explicitly that other experiences might be different than mine, thus me asking this question and explicitly asking for both sides, good and bad, with fact/proof.

Some people, well most, have responded in a great way. It came to one person and one person alone who decided that his mail order masters degree makes him some sort of god, and that he is more degreed and more intelligent than all others here. Sorry to say buddy... a masters degree might be big years ago, but not anymore. People multi-major their masters, and there is a thing called a PhD (no mail order options there), but I hate to talk over the head of a master degree recipient.

This became pointless, so it might as well just be done here. I really think those that responded with intelligence, and sorry it ended with a person with a masters degree. Do yourself a favor, do not flaunt a masters degree to me unless you are sure you are actually more educated. Good day, have fun with that false ego.

And he says I am the one with the attitude.
Mail-order degree, not hardly. Goodluck OP finding NON-observational FACTS!

 

[jacked_72]

I'm not surprised that another tool bashing thread had deteriorated into name calling and ***** measuring. Threads like this highlight what GJ has largely become unfortunately. I'm surprised that these "crapsman" or HF vs SO threads generate as many responses as they do since there are so damn many of them.