Craftsman from China - really that bad?

[Gmonkee]

Last tool I broke was a pliers I had in the vise trying to do impossible things.

I had the jaw welded back on a few months later as these have not been made at least 60 years. I still use them.

Warranty barely matters in most of my tools. The few I could I wouldn't bother.

I usually flip any snapper I find as the sale buys three of a brand I like better.

 

[wyattstihl]

Personally, warranty is so far down my hand tool buying decision list, it's inconsequential.

Personally I agree with this. I dont warranty tools because I dont break tools, and I dont buy super high end to begin with. If I have a job that I dont have the right tool for, I buy the right damn tool.

But if I was someone who bought high end Snap On tools, I would definitley want a worthwhile warranty.

And PS, I can but wont warranty my tools. Their old, and 75% of them aren’t made anymore, and its a personal prefrence of mine that I wont spend my money on a tool made overseas, unless I have to. And if one of my old American made tools breaks, (9999 times out of 10000 it wont) the warranty will likley be a Chinese replacement.

Someone on here once said “My money, my choice”, and I agree.



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[sberry]

The Sears that broke were not old and abused but basically out of the box. We got some for a job once and then decided to test them, we broke 2 or 3 as I recall. I broke at least 2 in my 3/4 set. At least. In 1980 one of the replacements was Tiawan.

 

[thwaller]

I completely disagree with this. If you are not abusing the tool (and I'm talking hand tools here, sockets, ratchets, wrenches, etc.) the chances of one breaking is virtually zero. I have some 2nd hand SO hand tools and never had one issue with any and they've all given me more than my monies worth.

I know warranty is important to some, many threads have quickly gone down hill with warranty discussion. Personally, warranty is so far down my hand tool buying decision list, it's inconsequential.

I can appreciate your statements here. You know I think warranty is important, but I have only needed to exchange about 5 or so Craftsman's. But I do also see a point of diminishing returns. There is a point that a warranty that costs $10 vs a warranty that costs $150 and neither get used start to become hard to justify. For the price of a single Snap On ratchet, I can get an entire basic Craftsman toolset, with a warranty. So sure, I do expect those to be lesser in quality than Snap On, but I know if I do break one, I just get a new one. And my experience tells me I do not break them often. If we switch to other brands, my statement there does not apply, like Stanley branded sockets as an example, I won't buy those anymore. So I think the better the tool, it makes sense to place as much emphasis on warranty.

But as I mentioned Stanley sockets ... this is why I ask on the China Craftsman. Although I do look for a good value and a warranty, it is still nice to never need to use the warranty. For me Craftsman USA has fit that bill, a solid warranty that I rarely need to use, and I still pay a very reasonable price for them. Does Craftsman China? Don't know, but would like to. Does Stanley, no, I have simply broke too many and I fail to see enough quality.

 

[M6erfan]

Personally I agree with this. I dont warranty tools because I dont break tools, and I dont buy super high end to begin with. If I have a job that I dont have the right tool for, I buy the right damn tool.

But if I was someone who bought high end Snap On tools, I would definitley want a worthwhile warranty.

And PS, I can but wont warranty my tools. Their old, and 75% of them aren’t made anymore, and its a personal prefrence of mine that I wont spend my money on a tool made overseas, unless I have to. And if one of my old American made tools breaks, (9999 times out of 10000 it wont) the warranty will likley be a Chinese replacement.

Someone on here once said “My money, my choice”, and I agree.

And there's the rub with "lifetime Warranties". Who's to say the company will be around in 5 years? Who's to say, down the road, they don't outsource to Bangladesh?

Buy good tools, dont abuse them, and warranty will almost never be an issue.

Edit: I've never broken a C'man USA socket or SK, Armstrong, Ko-ken, KTC, Facom, Hazet, Stahlwille, Heyco, tool either. Never. Of course, i'm just a home gamer not using my tools nearly as often or hard as a tech.

 

[thwaller]

Personally I agree with this. I dont warranty tools because I dont break tools, and I dont buy super high end to begin with. If I have a job that I dont have the right tool for, I buy the right damn tool.

But if I was someone who bought high end Snap On tools, I would definitley want a worthwhile warranty.

And PS, I can but wont warranty my tools. Their old, and 75% of them aren’t made anymore, and its a personal prefrence of mine that I wont spend my money on a tool made overseas, unless I have to. And if one of my old American made tools breaks, (9999 times out of 10000 it wont) the warranty will likley be a Chinese replacement.

Someone on here once said “My money, my choice”, and I agree.



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Could I ask? So you would never purchase Bluepoint products simply because they are not USA made? Not sure if you see quality in Bluepoint or not. Even Snap On non hand tools are overseas. I noticed looking at an air compressor that COO is China. So I am only curious as to how far made in USA people go? And there is nothing at all wrong with it, but I ask since I do not know.

 

[wyattstihl]

Could I ask? So you would never purchase Bluepoint products simply because they are not USA made? Not sure if you see quality in Bluepoint or not. Even Snap On non hand tools are overseas. I noticed looking at an air compressor that COO is China. So I am only curious as to how far made in USA people go? And there is nothing at all wrong with it, but I ask since I do not know.

To put it simply, there are limits as to how far I will go with USA made. On the topic of air compressors, many are assembled here, and those are the ones I will likley purchase. But the only ones made here 100% to my knowledge are Quincy, and those are over $10000 and as a general user theres no justifying that.

The only Bluepoint I have is an old USA snap ring plier, and they work just fine, so no need to replace it. And to answer your question, no, I will not purchase Bluepoint because they are made overseas. There are plenty to USA made tools out there to choose from. Its a matter of pride, nothing more, nothing less. I like to think I can have a drink with the guy who polished my Craftsman wrenches.

And back to how far I will go:
Basic tools I will buy Made in USA, period. (Screwdrivers, wrenches, pliers, ect.)

Things like power tools, compressors, toolboxes, ect. I will settle with assembled/built here, because I cant justify a $7000 dollar compressor for my 350 sq ft garage.
Dewalt assembles power tools here so I buy from them.

To sum it all up, I look at how many American hands went into making my product, and how many American men/women will be able to feed their families with the money they make making my tools. So whenever I can get something made in the US of A, I do it.

Hope that answers your question, if not feel free to ask me.

Edit: So I guess I was wrong about Quincy USA compressors being very expensive, around $1000 for a 60 gallon. Although not cheap, Ide happily spend more supporting American workers. Looks like my next compressor will be a Quincy!

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[thwaller]

To put it simply, there are limits as to how far I will go with USA made. On the topic of air compressors, many are assembled here, and those are the ones I will likley purchase. But the only ones made here 100% to my knowledge are Quincy, and those are over $10000 and as a general user theres no justifying that.

The only Bluepoint I have is an old USA snap ring plier, and they work just fine, so no need to replace it. And to answer your question, no, I will not purchase Bluepoint because they are made overseas. There are plenty to USA made tools out there to choose from. Its a matter of pride, nothing more, nothing less. I like to think I can have a drink with the guy who polished my Craftsman wrenches.

And back to how far I will go:
Basic tools I will buy Made in USA, period. (Screwdrivers, wrenches, pliers, ect.)

Things like power tools, compressors, toolboxes, ect. I will settle with assembled/built here, because I cant justify a $7000 dollar compressor for my 350 sq ft garage.
Dewalt assembles power tools here so I buy from them.

To sum it all up, I look at how many American hands went into making my product, and how many American men/women will be able to feed their families with the money they make making my tools. So whenever I can get something made in the US of A, I do it.

Hope that answers your question, if not feel free to ask me.

Edit: So I guess I was wrong about Quincy USA compressors being very expensive, around $1000 for a 60 gallon. Although not cheap, Ide happily spend more supporting American workers. Looks like my next compressor will be a Quincy!

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That does answer it, better than I expected. Thank you for that and the manner in how you answered. I was hoping it not to be taken wrong.

If you read some prior posts, I am not anti USA, and not Pro-____. I simply like a quality product at a good price with a good balance. As much as I don't like the prices and company, I love the Bluepoint tools I have. I would take them over Craftsman USA all day long. Only issue with that not being reality is their cost. I should also add that my Bluepoint stuff is more specialty stuff, so because they help me in a unique way is a big reason I like them.

If you look at Stanley, the reason I don't buy them is I have broken too many, specifically sockets. I know they were worked, but my Craftsmans finished the job in the same manner, so if it was abuse, the Craftsman ones take more then. So for me, it is not worth it. But for Craftsman, the few breaks I have had are rare, and I did not break them under what would be common use. Not that I abused them, but when you have a larger socket on a 3/8 ratchet, and that ratchet is a breaker bar length (also Craftsman), I am technically using the right tools for the job ... but my brain could have stopped me and said I really should have a 1/2 drive here.

So, what do you think of SB&D's model, the made in USA with global materials? What weirds me about that is they could just ask China to make and send them some cheap steel, use that and produce USA tools ... just as easily as they might ask China for quality steel. I think it just really comes down to the integrity of the brand and/or company. I just don't know how to get there without asking others.

EDITED TO ADD THIS NOTE:
Having spent a bit looking into Snap On as a company, their financials, reports, analysis, etc ... I think it best to just avoid discussing Snap On on this thread as it was not intended to be, but also as there is a lot to be said, which will continue just being off topic. I understand that people have opinions of them, both good and bad, but after reading over some real facts, how their ones and ones equal 2's and how it has changed over the last 10 years or so, that discussion is best done on a dedicated thread where a proper discussion of "Made In USA" and quality can be had.

So the topic here is Craftsman China vs Craftsman USA, and now modified to Craftsman SB&D.... so one got added. What my intent was is to see if the actual tangible quality of Craftsman changed since 2012 when moved to China, and now, have there been any further changes since SB&D is driving.

 

[Mr_B]

I can appreciate your statements here. You know I think warranty is important, but I have only needed to exchange about 5 or so Craftsman's. But I do also see a point of diminishing returns. There is a point that a warranty that costs $10 vs a warranty that costs $150 and neither get used start to become hard to justify. For the price of a single Snap On ratchet, I can get an entire basic Craftsman toolset, with a warranty. So sure, I do expect those to be lesser in quality than Snap On, but I know if I do break one, I just get a new one. And my experience tells me I do not break them often. If we switch to other brands, my statement there does not apply, like Stanley branded sockets as an example, I won't buy those anymore. So I think the better the tool, it makes sense to place as much emphasis on warranty.

But as I mentioned Stanley sockets ... this is why I ask on the China Craftsman. Although I do look for a good value and a warranty, it is still nice to never need to use the warranty. For me Craftsman USA has fit that bill, a solid warranty that I rarely need to use, and I still pay a very reasonable price for them. Does Craftsman China? Don't know, but would like to. Does Stanley, no, I have simply broke too many and I fail to see enough quality.

I have no idea why people don't see the full potential of self warranty in efficiency and life long tool expenditure, lot of good taiwan options with great design and quality and sensible price then you cover any replacements yourself as fast as needed and to your exact preferences.
Any chrome sockets I buy these days (last 15years) is premier brand, impacts are off brand japan style. I not yet had to replace any and they get used daily.
Cost is better/same as store brands & warranty will be simple, quick and low cost for small amount likely needed as i'm the warranty handler .
company warranty is a gamble as what grade of tool will they be selling when you do want a replacement and what hoops will you be jumping through for a less than 2buck china socket, possibly be made in laos or india when you get future replacements .

 

[sberry]

Way Overton king it for a few cheap tools at disposable cost.

 

[wyattstihl]

If you read some prior posts, I am not anti USA, and not Pro-____. I simply like a quality product at a good price with a good balance.

In that case, you are like most people. Most homeowner/DIYers dont care about COO battles, they just want a good tool at a good price.

So, what do you think of SB&D's model, the made in USA with global materials? What weirds me about that is they could just ask China to make and send them some cheap steel, use that and produce USA tools ... just as easily as they might ask China for quality steel. I think it just really comes down to the integrity of the brand and/or company. I just don't know how to get there without asking others.

I made a post earlier comparing Sears boxes to SBD boxes, that one might add some more insight to this.

I cant attest to the quality of the hand tools until I have some in my hand after the launch event.

As far as boxes go, I used to agree with your statement, buy chinese steel and make them here, but in reality thats not true. The toolboxes they sell are indeed, Made in USA, by American workers and American steel. What makes the fine print is electrical, the electric power strips in the box are made elsewhere.



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[tube_guy]

I think many homeowners still care about COO. I talk to non-tool people all the time, and almost always they think buying a tool that's made in the USA is important. A few years ago, a friend of mine went to Sears and bought a set of combination wrenches at full price. He told me they were very expensive, but they are made in the USA so they're worth it. Another friend of mine that only works on computers, always bought Craftsman tools to do so because they were made in the USA and they were guaranteed forever. I'm sure that there are some DIY people that don't care, but I'll bet many still do. At least based on my experience, it certainly isn't "most" that don't care. I used to buy Craftsman tools all the time. First time I bought thinking I was getting US made tools and ended up with China, I returned them on the spot. Haven't bought any since.

 

[finn]

I think many homeowners still care about COO. I talk to non-tool people all the time, and almost always they think buying a tool that's made in the USA is important. A few years ago, a friend of mine went to Sears and bought a set of combination wrenches at full price. He told me they were very expensive, but they are made in the USA so they're worth it. Another friend of mine that only works on computers, always bought Craftsman tools to do so because they were made in the USA and they were guaranteed forever. I'm sure that there are some DIY people that don't care, but I'll bet many still do. At least based on my experience, it certainly isn't "most" that don't care. I used to buy Craftsman tools all the time. First time I bought thinking I was getting US made tools and ended up with China, I returned them on the spot. Haven't bought any since.

Perhaps they cared twenty years ago, but times have changed.

Nobody I know cares about coo anymore.

That ship sailed years ago, and the success of Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc substantiates that claim.

 

[tube_guy]

Perhaps they cared twenty years ago, but times have changed.

Nobody I know cares about coo anymore.

That ship sailed years ago, and the success of Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc substantiates that claim.

Plenty of people I know still care about things made in the USA. Maybe not for a pair of cheap pants, or a plastic food storage container. But for durable things that last a lifetime, many people still care.

 

[tube_guy]

As a matter of fact, I do some work with Walmart. They have this huge Made in the USA initiative where they are "encouraging" their suppliers to bring their products back to production in the US. And Walmart is doing this specifically because their customers have asked for it. A large proportion of Walmart's customers have stated that buying products that are made in the US is important to them.

 

[nutsnbolts]

On the topic of Snap On, I’ll never pay full price for a Snap On tool. Period.

I dont understand what makes those tools so darn expensive. You can go to a multitude of other brands and get practically the same thing for half that price or less. But, Im no pro, so maybe theres something I’m missing?




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A lot of us that are advocates for Snap On and other higher end tools find them used on Ebay for much less than new prices. I'm pretty sure most of my Snap On tools cost me less than half. That makes them expensive still, but a little easier to swallow.

 

[nutsnbolts]

Something that I don't think has been touched on here is just how often a tool breaks. Many people are interested in the tool warranty, and much has been said of the possibility that Snap On may not warranty a wrench because Joe inherited it from his dad instead of buying it directly from Bob, the tool truck guy.

I don't think about the warranty of my Snap On , Mac, Williams, Proto or SK tools at all. I have never broken any of them. Now, I am not a professional so they don't get used 10 hours a day. For me, buying these tools used or NOS on Ebay is ideal, because for half price or less I am getting tools that are professional grade that I never have to worry about, other than them growing legs.

I guess I just wanted to point out that a great warranty does not make a great tool. Harbor Freight has the greatest warranty of all. If you bring in a broken tool they don't even flinch, they just take you over to where they sell them, bust open a package and take the 12mm socket out and hand it to you.

 

[454ragtop]

Snapped a couple pics of the wrenches I mentioned earlier, replacement 13 -15 is in the middle, USA wrenches top and bottom. Funny thing I just noticed as I was setting up for the pic, the 15MM end isn't offset the same as all the others, weird. Doesn't seem to affect use though.

 

[mrspeed]

I have some input to contribute with actual comparisons, but I'll save that for a separate response, so that those interested can easily skip over this monologue...

I will say, as one who looks at the quality of the tool, at least as it relates my my uses, it is frustrating that there is so much variance as of late. This thread had intent to see if the China CMAN is really as bad as made out to be vs the USA ones. Now, there is yet another version of tools. So, unless I am missing some or simply oversimplifying ... we have the Sears Craftsman made in USA, the Sears Craftsman made in China, and we are adding to that SB&D Craftsman made in USA with global materials.

I think one of the big problems with threads like this, is how incredibly oversimplified the question is in the first place, of "made-in-USA Craftsman tools versus made-in-China Craftsman tools". The reality is so much more complicated than there being the 3 versions of Craftsman tools you mention (made-in-USA, mad-in-China, and SB&D made-in-wherever).

Craftsman has never been a tool manufacturer at any point in their entire history, dating back to when they were first sold in 1927; they've only ever been a tool brand that sources its tools from other manufacturers. Check out the Craftsman Wikipedia page for more info. If you walk into a Sears today, you'd see hammers by Vaughan, pry bars by Wilde and Mayhew, impact screwdrivers from Vessel, pliers from Knipex, levels by Johnson, and of course the majority of their stuff manufactured by Western Forge and Apex.

Most of the made-in-China shift from the last decade came from the fact that Apex, which made their wrenches, ratchets, and sockets (among other tools) began shifting their manufacturing from the USA to China. See the "Sourcing" section of their Wikipedia page.

What's more, they have constantly changed source manufacturers over the years, as needs change, prices change, industries change, economies change, etc. So think of how many different manufacturers Craftsman currently contracts to make its tools today, and imagine that they're changing each year. Suddenly, it makes sense how you can end up with this many source code identifiers stamped onto the tools. Not all of those listed are for hand tools, but I've also noticed that the list isn't very up-to-date either, as several of the manufacturers making today's tools that I mentioned above aren't even on the list.

With all this in mind, even if you had started the thread asking specifically about the difference in quality of made-in-USA versus made-in-China Craftsman sockets, you'd end up with a lot of different answers, as the manufacturers for the made-in-USA sockets has changed over the many years that Craftsman sockets have been sold, and even within a given manufacturer and COO, the designs still change over time.

It'd be nice to think that we could isolate these changes with model numbers and COO, but Craftsman is notoriously bad about reusing model numbers indefinitely, even when tools change COO or (even worse) when the tool is completely redesigned. So, what you really need to know is for a given tool, which years are better quality, kind of like a wine. Except, unlike wine, they don't print the manufacturing date on the tools or packaging, so most people can't tell you exactly which year their tools were manufactured.

One of the other posters in this thread had the right idea, in terms of asking for which Craftsman made-in-China tools to avoid. Even then, I think it's generally hard to say. The issue with cheaper tools (regardless of where they're made), often isn't that they're worse quality overall; it's that they have worse quality control, which means you just have a greater chance of getting a bad tool. But you could still get a good one, as well. This starts to explain how the opinions can vary so much from one experience to another.

 

[thwaller]

I have some input to contribute with actual comparisons, but I'll save that for a separate response, so that those interested can easily skip over this monologue...



I think one of the big problems with threads like this, is how incredibly oversimplified the question is in the first place, of "made-in-USA Craftsman tools versus made-in-China Craftsman tools". The reality is so much more complicated than there being the 3 versions of Craftsman tools you mention (made-in-USA, mad-in-China, and SB&D made-in-wherever).

Craftsman has never been a tool manufacturer at any point in their entire history, dating back to when they were first sold in 1927; they've only ever been a tool brand that sources its tools from other manufacturers. Check out the Craftsman Wikipedia page for more info. If you walk into a Sears today, you'd see hammers by Vaughan, pry bars by Wilde and Mayhew, impact screwdrivers from Vessel, pliers from Knipex, levels by Johnson, and of course the majority of their stuff manufactured by Western Forge and Apex.

Most of the made-in-China shift from the last decade came from the fact that Apex, which made their wrenches, ratchets, and sockets (among other tools) began shifting their manufacturing from the USA to China. See the "Sourcing" section of their Wikipedia page.

What's more, they have constantly changed source manufacturers over the years, as needs change, prices change, industries change, economies change, etc. So think of how many different manufacturers Craftsman currently contracts to make its tools today, and imagine that they're changing each year. Suddenly, it makes sense how you can end up with this many source code identifiers stamped onto the tools. Not all of those listed are for hand tools, but I've also noticed that the list isn't very up-to-date either, as several of the manufacturers making today's tools that I mentioned above aren't even on the list.

With all this in mind, even if you had started the thread asking specifically about the difference in quality of made-in-USA versus made-in-China Craftsman sockets, you'd end up with a lot of different answers, as the manufacturers for the made-in-USA sockets has changed over the many years that Craftsman sockets have been sold, and even within a given manufacturer and COO, the designs still change over time.

It'd be nice to think that we could isolate these changes with model numbers and COO, but Craftsman is notoriously bad about reusing model numbers indefinitely, even when tools change COO or (even worse) when the tool is completely redesigned. So, what you really need to know is for a given tool, which years are better quality, kind of like a wine. Except, unlike wine, they don't print the manufacturing date on the tools or packaging, so most people can't tell you exactly which year their tools were manufactured.

One of the other posters in this thread had the right idea, in terms of asking for which Craftsman made-in-China tools to avoid. Even then, I think it's generally hard to say. The issue with cheaper tools (regardless of where they're made), often isn't that they're worse quality overall; it's that they have worse quality control, which means you just have a greater chance of getting a bad tool. But you could still get a good one, as well. This starts to explain how the opinions can vary so much from one experience to another.

What you have said makes sense to me. Thanks for all the information, but most of that I already know. For those who do not though, that is some good information, a lot of which I looked up myself prior so it is not like I just knew it.

I do agree it is generalizing. I can see and feel a difference in the ratchet I received in my very first Craftsman toolset vs the one I had replaced when the internals broke. I don't feel it as much in the tool handle itself, but with the internals themselves, so even repairing myself vs exchanging would likely have made no difference. So that is also a factor I think.

I think the best way to do a "which is good and bad" is to use detailed specifics. Like the example that most all know, the CMAN China lobster claw combo wrenches. It might be hard to specify a part number exactly, or even call it a "12mm wrench", but we can detail out the recommendation to avoid with a more complete description.

But please note that I do agree my query was general, intended to prompt detailed discussion. And yes, I am aware that part of the fault on variance in reply is due to that, making that part of the onus on me. As some have said ... it seems that come of the China stuff is good and some is bad, or as so it seems at this time. At least for me, that is the useful information and what I intended.

I also see now that my statement of "2 Craftsman's" cannot apply. The USA cannot all even get lumped in together, and now with SB&D, who knows what that product actually is or where it is made at this time. All I have seem thus far on SB&D Craftsman is a video of a ratchet being cut apart to see the internals. Apparently it is non serviceable, but the internals looked to be ok reasonable quality. The non serviceable bothers me though, I have never broken the handle portion of a ratchet, and the handle is not the wearing piece.

EDIT: @mrspeed: what I was getting at the more I think is when you take out the fact that COO is China, is the tool really different. Can you suggest a way to address that in a better way?

 

[thwaller]

On topic question here .... we all know that the screwdrivers with the CAB handles have an odor. I read a lot of posts on this, and decided to contact Western Forge directly as I was reading contradicting things. So, my question to you, have any of you purchased China Craftsman screwdrivers? Or even SB&D Craftsman or how ever else you may want to describe your tool? What I am curious on is do they also have any scent? I refer to both the "new" scent and the scent released by the CAB under certain conditions.

Mine specifically are the classic USA Craftsmans from the 1990s, the red and blue handle ones. So that is what I reference. My personal experience data and data from manufacturer support those products only.

Side note - for those who are SO lovers ... I do have to say, even though my limited edition Snap Ons share a box with all other screwdrivers, those handles have no odor. That is fact as I see it.

 

[WWheeler]

Craftsman sockets and wrenches - USA and China

IMHO there's no appreciable difference between any of them except for the China full polished long pattern and stubby wrenches with their humongous 'lobster-claw' open ends. All turn a fastener just the same. The China raised panel is a little wider. Both of the deeps are fully broached.

 

[thwaller]

Wow... I should take more pictures of mine since I now know how to put them inline. Those full polish wrenches look like ****. The RPs look like they corrected that. Is there a functional reason to have such a large lobster on there? Speculation says it is to make up for a cheaper quality steel, but is there maybe another reasonable explanation?

On that stubby wrench though... that would take some real cheap steel to functionally need that much metal... I would think.

 

[WWheeler]

Wow... I should take more pictures of mine since I now know how to put them inline. Those full polish wrenches look like ****. The RPs look like they corrected that. Is there a functional reason to have such a large lobster on there? Speculation says it is to make up for a cheaper quality steel, but is there maybe another reasonable explanation?

It's so that when you can't fit the oversized open end on a fastener because of an obstruction you will have to go buy another fine lifetime guaranteed Craftsman tool that might fit. If not, repeat. Seems to be the one common thread among most of their gimmick tools so why wouldn't it work also with wrenches?

 

[mrspeed]

I have a few picture comparisons. Didn't have time to take measurements, but if anyone wants, just ask. I have a caliper and can measure upon request.

First up, miniature needle-nose pliers. I didn't have any old made-in-USA versions, but I do have old made-in-Japan, less old made-in-China, and new made-in-China versions to compare.











Notice that the old made-in-Japan have more precisely machined tips, a slight gap at the tip (expected when they also have cutters, as the tip gap ensures the cutters will always gut), and more even finish. The less old made-in-China versions have the largest (least precisely machined) tips, and about the same gap at the tip. These should not have any gap, as they don't have cutters built in. The new made-in-China versions have the largest gap (though with cutters), second largest tips, and worst, uneven finish. I've only used these once or twice ever, and the uneven finish you see is from the factory. Both the made-in-China versions have asymmetric tip sizes.

 

[thwaller]

It's so that when you can't fit the oversized open end on a fastener because of an obstruction you will have to go buy another fine lifetime guaranteed Craftsman tool that might fit. If not, repeat. Seems to be the one common thread among most of their gimmick tools so why wouldn't it work also with wrenches?

See now this is interesting ... the warranty states "ever fails to provide complete satisfaction". So, in the case of the large claw, you are unsatisfied per a certain application where other Craftsman branded wrenches will work. I wonder if you can get a warranty replacement of one of a smaller size, or a refund if they cannot accommodate the request?

But then again, you did take delivery and/or saw what you were buying....

 

[mrspeed]

Next up is the sockets. I didn't have any duplicate sockets to compare, but I did have a small made-in-USA 3/8" socket to compare to a made-in-China 3/8" deep-well socket. If I had these sockets separately, I probably wouldn't be able to tell a difference. They are very similar.

Side by side, however, the one thing that sticks out to me is how much thinner the socket walls of the made-in-USA socket are versus the made-in-China socket. Also notice how the hole of the made-in-China socket is off-center. If the walls were as thin as the made-in-USA socket, and the hole were that off-center, that side of the socket wall would probably be pretty flimsy.

 

[mrspeed]

Finally, the wrenches. I actually have 3 sets of wrenches to compare: (from top to bottom) new made-in-China, old made-in-USA, and old made-in-Japan. These all seem more or less the same until you hold them all side-by-side and directly compare.



Notice the lettering in the stamping is finer on the made-in-USA wrenches, and finest on the made-in-Japan wrenches.

The made-in-China wrenches have the coarsest and least uniform finish; you can see that the finish actually changes on the sides between the handle and the outside of the open and closed ends. The finish is both smoother and more uniform on the made-in-USA wrenches than the made-in-China wrenches; and it's smoothest and most uniform on the made-in-Japan wrenches.







By far though, the biggest difference to me, which I haven't heard anyone else mention, is that the made-in-USA and made-in-Japan wrenches are thinner in the handle and have a more comfortable profile to hold.

Interestingly, the made-in-USA wrenches are actually the thinnest and lightest. However, the thickness at the rectangular shape is about the same thickness as on the made-in-Japan wrenches. This means, because the handle is thinner on the made-in-USA wrenches, there's a larger ledge in the middle between the handle and rectangular stamping that digs into your hand. Whereas the shape of the handle on the made-in-Japan wrenches flows a bit more smoothly into the protrusion.







The worst of them though is definitely the made-in-China versions, as they have a thicker, more boxy profile, which you can feel digging into the palm of your hand as you apply force. The made-in-USA and made-in-Japan wrenches are much more comfortable to push or pull, with the Japanese wrenches slightly beating out the American wrenches for comfortability.

Edited for clarity.

 

[Y00PER]

Perhaps they cared twenty years ago, but times have changed.

Nobody I know cares about coo anymore.

That ship sailed years ago, and the success of Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc substantiates that claim.

I still care about COO, as does my youngest daughter who recently turned in to one of those teenager things. She has to "approve" all of my tool purchases, and her requirement is that they say "USA" on them. lol

 

[mrspeed]

One more note on the wrenches though.

I also happen to own duplicate made-in-USA versions of the 11/32" wrench, both marked with the same model number and "VA". However, the newer one (with the sticker, on top) has the same thicker, heavier, boxier profile, and the same less-even and worse surface finish as the made-in-China wrenches. This proves that the change in the design and manufacturing (for the worse) happened while production was still in the USA.

 

[thwaller]

One more note on the wrenches though.

I also happen to own duplicate made-in-USA versions of the 11/32" wrench, both marked with the same model number and "VA". However, the newer one (with the sticker, on top) has the same thicker, heavier, boxier profile, and the same less-even and worse surface finish as the made-in-China wrenches. This proves that the change in the design and manufacturing (for the worse) happened while production was still in the USA.

Interesting ... so this might imply that changes may not be an effect of the change in COO, but a change in the design, specification, QC or other from Craftsman that does or would exist regardless of COO. Meaning that quite possible, the shift from USA to China had no impact, but in fact the integrity of the Craftsman brand design and specification is what has changed. That to me could be even worse as you can make the same here or there and the complaint remains the same.

 

[finn]

I still care about COO, as does my youngest daughter who recently turned in to one of those teenager things. She has to "approve" all of my tool purchases, and her requirement is that they say "USA" on them. lol

But does she shop at Amazon, Target, or Walmart?

If she does, she’s buying things from China, and is a hypocrite.

 

[wyattstihl]

But does she shop at Amazon, Target, or Walmart?



If she does, she’s buying things from China, and is a hypocrite.

That makes absolutley no sense. If I bought a notebook that was Made in USA from Walmart or Amazon, how am I buying from China?


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[Gmonkee]

OP, there is a lot of past production runs as in thousands. Probably of each part number.

Few of us really know how to tell them apart. We may recall when purchased or where but how is anyone sure of batches or how long it sat in a store.

Only present and future stuff from both SBD and whatever **** Sears grubs up on credit have to be considered and seperately.

Unless that treasure trove of data somewhere from Sears surfaces telling all who supplied what and when. Asking nicely probably will not make them give it up.

Its just a case by case of whatever one has on hand as it is.

 

[thwaller]

OP, there is a lot of past production runs as in thousands. Probably of each part number.

Few of us really know how to tell them apart. We may recall when purchased or where but how is anyone sure of batches or how long it sat in a store.

Only present and future stuff from both SBD and whatever **** Sears grubs up on credit have to be considered and seperately.

Unless that treasure trove of data somewhere from Sears surfaces telling all who supplied what and when. Asking nicely probably will not make them give it up.

Its just a case by case of whatever one has on hand as it is.

I have some knowledge of what you mean, There are markings like =CRAFTSMAN= vs CRAFTSMAN, and then the codes on them which there is already a great index of. But yes, you are correct and I do understand that. I can see my post was not clear enough, which is on me. An example of what I was trying to find is the example of the lobster claw wrenches.

What is actually turning out though is that were design changes prior to 2012 when shift happened to China, so if you leave the generality of my query and go into detail, it is technically not so valid anymore.

EDIT: And I agree, it seems more logical to compare as you said, the Sears China Craftsman vs SB&D Craftsman, in which ever varieties appear.

Here are two links I reference often if it helps anyone:
- http://alloy-artifacts.org/craftsman-maker-v.html
- https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84807

 

[Mr_B]

Those chrome moly japan ones are very decent quality .

 

[wyattstihl]

I remember awhile back I did a comparison of some Craftsman wrenches all Made in USA. I recall one of the 14mm wrenches was a lobster claw, not sure when it was made.

Goes to show variation in manufacturing processes and date ranges.


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[mrspeed]

Interesting ... so this might imply that changes may not be an effect of the change in COO, but a change in the design, specification, QC or other from Craftsman that does or would exist regardless of COO. Meaning that quite possible, the shift from USA to China had no impact, but in fact the integrity of the Craftsman brand design and specification is what has changed. That to me could be even worse as you can make the same here or there and the complaint remains the same.

Possibly. But it's also possible the design change was in preparation for off-shoring production, so the causation/correlation is still unclear to me.

One thing is for sure. If the quality of Craftsman got significantly worse right before shifting production to China, then when considering buying new made-in-China versus used made-in-USA, you at least have a greater chance of getting better quality tools with the older made-in-USA tools, even if it's not 100%. This assumes there haven't been technological shifts in the tool design since the older versions, for example, as there have been with ratchets.

My approach has been to look out for Craftsman tools that are made-in-USA (or made-in-Japan or France or Germany) whenever possible, but not being willing to pay much of a premium for it.

Anyway, if we want to talk specific tools, I'll get this thing going.

There are several current made-in-China Craftsman tools that I think are great and actually prefer to other made-in-USA tools, especially in terms of value.

Current made-in-China Craftsman I really like:

• Extreme Grip diamond-tipped screwdriver set
  
  
• Folding utility knives
  
  
• Cap wrench bottle opener (made in China now, but solid as a rock)
  
  
• Carpenter's high-visibility speed square (I have both this one and the made-in-USA speed square that Sears currently sells side-by-side, and I actually like the made-in-China one better)
  
  

I thought the above list would be longer, but I'm now realizing a lot of the currently-sold Craftsman tools I really like are still made in USA.

Then there are several made-in-China Craftsman tools I think are lesser in quality, but still pretty good value.

Current made-in-China Craftsman tools that are good value:

• Non-polished wrench set I was comparing above (yes, they're not as comfortable, but I probably wouldn't have cared that much if I had never tried the more comfortable versions)
  
  
• Impact socket set
  
  

Lastly, there are a few current made-in-China Craftsman tools I'd stay away from at all costs.

These ****:

• Flare nut wrench sets (I posted a comparison between the current made-in-China versus the old made-in-USA versions here)
  
  
• Ignition wrench sets and midget wrench sets
  
  

Those chrome moly japan ones are very decent quality .

Yeah, I really like them. I also have some nicer Hazet and Heyco wrenches, both made in Germany (a few made in West Germany), and so far, I like the made-in-Japan Craftsman better than the Heyco, not as much as the Hazet. I haven't had much use yet for the Heyco or made-in-Japan Craftsman wrenches as they're both pretty new to me.

 

[M6erfan]

Those chrome moly japan ones are very decent quality .

They are. My father has a full set that he bought sometime in the 80's. I heard that they were made by Kyoto Tool Company (KTC) for Craftsman

 

[thwaller]

Possibly. But it's also possible the design change was in preparation for off-shoring production, so the causation/correlation is still unclear to me.

One thing is for sure. If the quality of Craftsman got significantly worse right before shifting production to China, then when considering buying new made-in-China versus used made-in-USA, you at least have a greater chance of getting better quality tools with the older made-in-USA tools, even if it's not 100%. This assumes there haven't been technological shifts in the tool design since the older versions, for example, as there have been with ratchets.

My approach has been to look out for Craftsman tools that are made-in-USA (or made-in-Japan or France or Germany) whenever possible, but not being willing to pay much of a premium for it.

Anyway, if we want to talk specific tools, I'll get this thing going.

There are several current made-in-China Craftsman tools that I think are great and actually prefer to other made-in-USA tools, especially in terms of value.

Thanks for that info, I found that very helpful.

I understand there is not enough supporting evidence to say exactly when and why certain design changes happened. But we did also get a post showing a comparison of USA wrenches, one of which was a lobster claw type, and it was not all that recent.

It is my opinion that Craftsman lost quality prior to the 2012 move to China. I notice differences in my original tools (the first ones for me) and those I added later. I am unsure of dates, but I could take a stab at it and say maybe the mid 2000s. One I Can recall straight away is when I ordered a missing socket and it came laser etched ... I did not like the socket itself, even beyond the laser etching.

Specifically relating to the impact China CMAN product you mentioned ... have you used Tekton impact sockets? I ask because I wonder how those China ones compare to the Taiwan Tekton ones. I have USA Craftsman and Tekton impact, but no China. So far the Tektons have taken a good beating, and the USA Craftsmans have taken years of beating, and I have no complaints on either... except those where there is laser etching without a stamped dual size marking.

EDIT: In reference to the extreme grip screwdriver set .... first off, what are your thoughts on the tips? Are they, actually stronger, in your opinion? Second, are the handles in part a soft / rubbery material? I have seen complaints on other products on that type of material where it degrades, or starts to crumble and fall apart. I actually like the all hard plastic handles like the Snap Ons and Craftsman CAB handles, but those CMAN ones have tips that like to get mangled, so maybe these China ones are better? I assume you have the ones I refer to, so what are your thoughts on it?