Biscuit joiner or kreg pocket joiner?

[dalehsc]

Starting to do a few cabinets out of wood,and was wondering what are the thoughts on the two different ways of joining? I was at Harbour freight & looked at the Drill Master screw joiner they have & looked good for $65. The biscuit tool was about the same price. Advice......?What do you have,or used?

 

[R_einan]

I know a lot of guys that swear by pocket holes, but I have a thing against using anymore fasteners than I must. A biscuit is a good alignment tool and increases the surface area of a glue joint, but IMO isn’t a fastener. Though a tongue and groove joint does the same thing and it’s free, just more work to set up. I have both, though I haven’t used the pocket hole yet, got it as a gift and intend to try it out this year. I have a biscuit jointer, but it is a porter cable model and wasn’t $65. I use it to help alight table tops and other pieces. I prefer to design pieces that use more traditional wood working joints like mortise and tenon and lap joints for structural strength without fasteners. So ultimately, it depends on what you are trying to achieve and how much you wish to work/learn in the process.

 

[Tom Sestito]

For me, in the following order:

Festool Domino
Biscuits and glue
Pocket screws.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I really like pocket screws for cabinet building. Biscuits are really only useful for alignment when gluing up large panels or table tops, for anything else they're never really the preferred option.

For pocket hole screws I would go with a Kreg. You don't need the fancy $100+ models, I use the R3 which costs $39 assuming you already own one clamp of some kind. Or you can even get the mini version for $19, but I think the R3 is a good mid-point.

Obviously a Festool Domino is the way to go if you have money spilling out all your pockets.

 

[plinker]

I really like pocket screws for cabinet building. Biscuits are really only useful for alignment when gluing up large panels or table tops, for anything else they're never really the preferred option.

For pocket hole screws I would go with a Kreg. You don't need the fancy $100+ models, I use the R3 which costs $39 assuming you already own one clamp of some kind. Or you can even get the mini version for $19, but I think the R3 is a good mid-point.

Obviously a Festool Domino is the way to go if you have money spilling out all your pockets.

I agree, IME the pocket hole jigs are great for frame type work, dowel joint or biscuits for panels/multiple boards. I would say both are needed to one degree or another.

 

[Vbwiley92]

I would recommend the R3 over the mini. You'll kick yourself by not spending the extra $20 for the R3

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[dnschmidt]

Festool Domino. Ridiculously expensive but makes all other options obsolete.

 

[shoot summ]

No shame in using pocket screws if you hide them. I've built a lot of cabinets and furniture over the years, I'll use what works best for the application, pocket screws can work damn good.

No idea why someone would suggest a new worker invest $1K in a Domino, nice machine, but not even close to what the OP is looking for. He's in the sub $100 range it appears...

 

[theoldwizard1]

No shame in using pocket screws if you hide them. I've built a lot of cabinets and furniture over the years, I'll use what works best for the application, pocket screws can work damn good.

So what is your trick for hiding them !

I have the Kreg R3. That is th absolute MINIMUM ! I probably should have got the K4 or K5. The HD jig (for use with 2by lumber) could be very useful it you do a lot of outdoor projects.

I have not found a good substitute for the Kreg screws, so bite the bullet and buy 100 on Amazon. IIRC, the "standard" scre is 1-1/4", but I bought 1-1/2" because I felt I was not getting enough "bite".

 

[jimreed2160]

Your joinery really depends on your project. The biscuit is a spline and adds strength to the joint while the pocket screw just holds things tight until the glue dries. There is some mechanical fastening but it will not stand up to much stress. In addition, modern PVA glue makes most joints stronger than the wood itself.

So to sum it up--if you are building cabinets, pocket screws are the way to go because they are quicker than biscuits and clamps. I use the HF jig myself but use Kreg drill bits and Kreg screws.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I really like pocket screws for cabinet building.

I assume you mean for face frames and door rail and stile joints.

Biscuits are really only useful for alignment when gluing up large panels or table tops ...

I have seen relatively large panels done with pocket screws. You have to be sure to use the minimum length screw so it does not pook through ! The clue is really what is holding the panel/table top together.

 

[Git]

For me, in the following order:

Festool Domino
Biscuits and glue
Pocket screws.

Festool Domino. Ridiculously expensive but makes all other options obsolete.

In typical Garage Journal fashion - recommend $1,600 in tools (domino and the mandatory dust extractor required for it to work properly) to a beginning wood worker... (not counting the actual costs of the dominos)

If your talking about Face Frames - consider some type of pocket hole jig or a high quality dowelling jig like the Jessem for $130

https://www.jessemdirect.com/JessEm_Dowelling_Jig_p/08350.htm

Biscuits can be very useful to help align and hold the face frame to the carcass

If you want to spend a little more, Porter Cable makes an excellent pocket hole machine for around $230
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Porter-Cable-560-Quik-Jig-Pocket-Hole-Joinery-System-560/203162744

 

[Farmall450]

A Kreg setup is on my to-get list.

 

[poppakap]

In typical Garage Journal fashion - recommend $1,600 in tools (domino and the mandatory dust extractor required for it to work properly) to a beginning wood worker... (not counting the actual costs of the dominos)

If your talking about Face Frames - consider some type of pocket hole jig or a high quality dowelling jig like the Jessem for $130

https://www.jessemdirect.com/JessEm_Dowelling_Jig_p/08350.htm

Biscuits can be very useful to help align and hold the face frame to the carcass

If you want to spend a little more, Porter Cable makes an excellent pocket hole machine for around $230
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Porter-Cable-560-Quik-Jig-Pocket-Hole-Joinery-System-560/203162744

Stopped reading at “domino.”

 

[marineman]

For what you're after I would go with a pocket hole jig, Kreg really has the market cornered there but any brand will accomplish the same thing at the end of the day. Building carcass and face frame cabinets you can do the entire thing with pocket screws and hide every single one of them. Only warning is don't get sloppy with cuts and assume the pocket screws will hold it all together, basically the screw acts as a clamp until the glue dries, it's still just a **** joint. In theory after all your glue dries you should be able to remove all the pocket screws and it will still hold together.

I know the OP isn't talking about it but I would recommend you master the mortise & tenon by hand before running out and buying a domino, that's what it's really intended to replace. If you do enough of them by hand before buying one you'll appreciate the tool a lot more.

 

[rharman]

They're not mutually exclusive. I've used biscuits to align & reinforce and pocket holes to do the actual fastening. Did several large closet drawers with that method.

 

[6PTsocket]

Isn't there a jig that lets you drill overlapping holes to form a mortise and lengths of matching stock that you cut up for floating tenons? I think there is also a router bit to make your own tenons. It basically does what the Festool does for WAAAAAY less money. If commercial production speed is not an issue I would look at that. Sorry, I forgot the name but I am sure somebody here knows.

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[MarkG]

Pocket screws are nice for building face frames, but for anything wide enough to use a biscuit, I'll use those. You can't beat their strength (when used properly) especially if you put in 2 side by side where needed or desired, and of course, you can't see them in most cases, as you can the ugly pocket screw holes. Yes, you can monkey around with plugs, etc to fill the pocket holes, but I'll use biscuits wherever it's possible. I think a properly made biscuit joint is stronger. Biscuits can also aid with alignment sometimes. To each his own. They both have their place.

 

[soj]

Pocket hole screws all the way for me. No glue needed. Yes, if you just make a single **** joint with PHS it isn't very strong. But assemble a complete cabinet carcass with multiple intersecting joints and it is solid as a rock.

Why not use dowels, biscuits, dominoes, mortise and tenon? They are all good methods, but I bought a Kreg jig first. Love the one you're with! Also no clamping or waiting for glue to dry.

I built the Kreg Jig workstation with... pocket hole screws. The other pic is to show what i mean by multiple intersecting joints.
jp

 

[PWC Repair]

How long do the biscuits need to be joined??

If it's just long enough to reach your mouth I like to use strawberry jam.
For an extended joining I'd suggest something stronger such as peanut butter.
I've not tried the PVA glue.......is it good? And who is Kreg? Does he make good biscuits?

 

[Sticky Grips]

For me, each has it's own use.

I use biscuits to assist in alignment, fastening face frames to cabinet carcasses, etc.

I just made a bunch of paint-grade cabinet doors using mitered edges and #0 biscuits.

I have used pocket holes + dowels in some instances.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

I bought my Kreg R3 with a free clamp 3 or 4 years ago during the holidays. I see them around here every holiday season on sale. I've yet to use mine. Every time I think about using it and then about the exposed holes I go to some other methodology.

Last year I decided a plate joiner could be useful. After some research as to what are considered the top brands (and being unwilling to pay $1000 for a Festool), I bought a used Porter Cable 557 plate joiner in excellent condition. Recently used it to build a paint shelf for my son. It was easy to use and helped align and hopefully strengthen the **** joints I used for the exterior frame of the shelf. I used dado joints for the mid-shelf and vertical supports. Gotta say I love that PC 557 and will be looking for reasons to use it in the future.

Not that you can tell or see that I used biscuits but here's the paint shelf I made for my son's paint shop. It's not very big but it's the size he wanted.

 

[strutaeng]

Both. I've built cabinets with pocket screws for the face frame. I just have an inexpensive Kreg R3. I use biscuits for attaching the face frame to the carcass. I clamp the face frame and use brad nails also. Works very well for me as the biscuits registers and square everything.

You can also use pockets screws to attach the face frame to the carcass, but you can see them, unless you put them on the outside of the carcass.

I've got a Festool Domino jointer and it is nice, but unless you are going frameless or something atypical, it is just not needed. Certainly not worth the price for typical American-style cabinets, at least in my opinion.

Just a basic cabinet...

 

[acer66]

Building my frameless kitchen cabinets almost complete with pocket screws.
No need to glue things, I have build a few things over the years with pockets screws, is a big plus in my book.
I am very happy with the old kreg set I have.

 

[todd_fuller]

Pocket screws are good... they serve double duty holding the joint together while the glue cures as well as add strength to the joint. My main gripe is that you must securely clamp the joint otherwise the screws pull it out of alignment. Otherwise, dowels/biscuit/domino keep the alignment.

Screws with no glue... not sure about that unless you need to disassemble it later.

 

[6PTsocket]

Isn't there a jig that lets you drill overlapping holes to form a mortise and lengths of matching stock that you cut up for floating tenons? I think there is also a router bit to make your own tenons. It basically does what the Festool does for WAAAAAY less money. If commercial production speed is not an issue I would look at that. Sorry, I forgot the name but I am sure somebody here knows.

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Beadlock pro at Rockler. Anybody used one?

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[Git]

No

Personally, I don't like what I consider 'proprietary' solutions. 'tenon stock" to fit that beadlock is $9 for (12). That would get you (100) 3/8" wooden dowels.

Another thought - have you ever worked with a SOSS invisible hinges? If you have a router, WoodHaven makes an excellent jig for the #204 SOSS hinge which could also be used to make some really nice 1/2" x 2 3/8" floating tenons. Making the tenons in that size is pretty easy to do

 

[PelicanPines]

Pretty sure I own all options except for the domino...

Face frame = pocket holes
Top panel jointing = biscuits or beadlocks
Small things like chairs = dowels

 

[WunTon]

Some home depots still have the holiday Kreg deal laying around that included the K4 a clamp and some other odds and ends for $99. I bought one back around Christmas time and I'm not sure how I ever lived without it before. I have used it to built cabinets (carcass, face frames and doors), a work bench, a fire wood rack and who knows what else already and it works very well for me. I would at least go with the k4 for ease of use and speed of use. As mentioned you dip have to be careful to clamp your pieces securely when screwing them together so they say in alignment but I found having a few of the Kreg clamps along with a piece of good flat 3/4 ply to clamp against makes for very easy alignment of the joint when screwing them together.

 

[6PTsocket]

No

Personally, I don't like what I consider 'proprietary' solutions. 'tenon stock" to fit that beadlock is $9 for (12). That would get you (100) 3/8" wooden dowels.

Another thought - have you ever worked with a SOSS invisible hinges? If you have a router, WoodHaven makes an excellent jig for the #204 SOSS hinge which could also be used to make some really nice 1/2" x 2 3/8" floating tenons. Making the tenons in that size is pretty easy to do

Beadlock makes a router bit to make your own tenon stock. You start with a piece of rectangulsr stock and run the router bit down each side. You can crank out miles of tenon in the wood of your choice. My question is how well does it work? Is it easy or awkward? It looks good on paper. The pattern on the tenons gives you a little more surface area than a plain tenon. I seem to recall a strength comparison test of vaious floating couplers and the domino did not win.

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[dthor68]

Pocket screws are nice for building face frames, but for anything wide enough to use a biscuit, I'll use those. You can't beat their strength (when used properly) especially if you put in 2 side by side where needed or desired, and of course, you can't see them in most cases, as you can the ugly pocket screw holes. Yes, you can monkey around with plugs, etc to fill the pocket holes, but I'll use biscuits wherever it's possible. I think a properly made biscuit joint is stronger. Biscuits can also aid with alignment sometimes. To each his own. They both have their place.

I agree 100%. Biscuits are awesome. Everything in my shop is held together with Titebond and biscuits. I have never had a biscuit joint fail. In fact, I just broke down a cabinet held together with biscuits and it did not even break at joint. So despite what some folks say, they are more than strong enough.

 

[Git]

Beadlock makes a router bit to make your own tenon stock. You start with a piece of rectangulsr stock and run the router bit down each side. You can crank out miles of tenon in the wood of your choice. My question is how well does it work? Is it easy or awkward? It looks good on paper. The pattern on the tenons gives you a little more surface area than a plain tenon. I seem to recall a strength comparison test of vaious floating couplers and the domino did not win.

I didn't know that, thanks for the info

FineWoodWorking did a "joint strength test" back in 2009. Here is a link to how they actually did the test:

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/02/25/joint-strength-test

And this is the overall results. As you can see the Beadlock placed quite well but it's hard to beat a true tenon. Note the floating tenon is almost as strong as a traditional mortise and tenon joint. With a good router and a simple jig, you can cut mortises pretty easily. That is why I posted the pic of that Woodhaven SOSS Jig

In reality, I have never had a 'cope and stick' cabinet door type joint fail, and it is at the bottom of the pile

 

[Git]

I agree 100%. Biscuits are awesome. Everything in my shop is held together with Titebond and biscuits. I have never had a biscuit joint fail. In fact, I just broke down a cabinet held together with biscuits and it did not even break at joint. So despite what some folks say, they are more than strong enough.

I love using biscuits and I think they are underrated.

I know that Porter Cable makes a biscuit joiner where you can swap up the 4" blade for a 2" blade specifically designed for Face Frames or other smaller parts. My biscuit joiner does not, so I usually use a cope and stick, dowel or floating tenon

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I assume you mean for face frames and door rail and stile joints.

Yes, but you can also build entire cabinets with pocket hole joinery. For a shop I wouldn't worry about appearance, but for kitchen cabinets you could easily fill/hide the pocket holes.

 

[aka Larry]

Yes, but you can also build entire cabinets with pocket hole joinery. For a shop I wouldn't worry about appearance, but for kitchen cabinets you could easily fill/hide the pocket holes.

I built this pantry in our kitchen using nothing but Kreg pocket hole joinery. Much more simple for a novice woodworker like myself, and it turned out great.

 

[ez-duzit]

Learn to actually join wood and you won't need to use unsightly pocket screws.

 

[aka Larry]

Learn to actually join wood and you won't need to use unsightly pocket screws.

You mean like the unsightly ones in my pictures above?

 

[Git]

Learn to actually join wood and you won't need to use unsightly pocket screws.

No need to put someone down because they don't subscribe to your way of doing things.

I think his cabinets turned out great. I think that a large majority of kitchen cabinets made nowadays use pocket holes as a minimum on the face frames (because you will never see them) and they don't even bother using the plugs. Maybe you should become a paid consultant and fill them in on how they should be doing it?

And let's not forget, the OP is a 'beginner' who doesn't have or want to spend a whole lot of money

 

[ez-duzit]

My post was in response to the OP.

 

[strutaeng]

A mortise and tenon cut by hand is a very good skill to have. Once you master this, cutting dovetails and other complicated joinery becomes much easier. It's about learning the skill and practice. Sadly, this skills has somewhat been lost by the versatility of power tools and "jigs," although I think hand-cut joinery has gone though a Renaissance recently.

Having said that, it sounds like the OP is a beginner. Pocket screws have their uses, mostly in carcass construction.

Would I use pocket screws for a chair? No way!

Would I use hand-cut mortise and tenon construction for an entire set of kitchen cabinets? No way!