Above 1200 Sq/FT Cleaning Up My Shop

[drivesitfar]

Andy: it sounds like a fun day. ENJOY!!

we have a STEAM UP in Salem,Oregon that i've tried to drive (3.5 hours one way) to for the last couple years and we are hoping to get down there this summer.

I love the old school tools and stuff and firing up that engine with wood in that old burner just makes me feel warm and cozy.

Hey it's SATURDAY here in the PNW today. sunny and maybe close to 70 degrees and zero wind.

cheers

 

[patlun]

Now I am here, sorry I am late! I have seen so many nice things and the thread has as many side tracks as Sakuramas (almost), squares, pantographs, Bobs tracks, some Boolean Algebra, 3D printers, old calculators, CNC routers, mobile network extenders microscopes.

Learned lots from your work with the Studebaker. It is a delight to see how you are solving the problems welding on that car, I am learning lots by seeing your thought processes. And I really hope I never need to repair a car that is in the same condition as that Studebaker. I really appreciate the work you showed us, but I would buy a newer car.

Here follows some highlights from the show. Sorry for the spoilers, but there is lots of other things to explore.

And a couple of knives

!

That small knife is very cute and very sharp looking.


This words about cross pollination is interesting. I think they connects very well to my own thinking.

Interesting how cross pollination works. It never fails to amaze me how something I learned in say weaving will apply to foundry work, and how things learned in the cattle business will apply to broom making. Seemingly very dissimilar subjects are made richer by a variety of knowledge.

I find ways to solve some problems in my work with software when I am reading about how you and others solve problems in seemly unrelated problem areas. Most be something strange with my brain, but I am very happy I have one And then Guster wrote this in the next post. So true for me.

I've always looked for inspiration in other areas. More amazing still how the brain makes connections. Taking a break from a problem and coming up with a solution while doing something completely different just because something you are doing triggered a concept... Eureka moment much?

She wanted to go to my shop today so off we went. She had not been there in a couple of years (other than one quick visit), so things have changed. I parked her wheelchair in the foundry room and melted a few dozen cans so she could see an aluminum pour. She really enjoyed seeing the molten aluminum.

Then after I got her back to the house and finished lunch,.

Really loved reading about how you took your wife sightseeing in the shop. And your attitude to life seems so like the man I wish to be (I can’t be sure I meet my wishes, but I try.) To help a spouse in need is one of the reasons you married.

water, water, cool clear water.

And you are providing some nice music. I was hearing Sons of the Pioneers singing in my head when reading that.

You might have noticed I've been scarce lately. Our friend with throat cancer got a poor report from MD Anderson in Houston. Sharon told me she wanted to go see them, about 10:00 Tuesday morning. Flying would really be a problem for her so later Tuesday I changed the oil and bought new tires for her car on the way to Houston. We stayed at Ennis, Texas for the night. Called them Wednesday morning and invited them to lunch. They thought it was a joke, but I told them as long as we're in the area... Finally got to their hotel at 1:30 after stopping and getting an emergency prescription in Corsicana, TX (I forgot to pack her nausea medicine ) and we had a nice lunch. They were touched . Made it back to Corsicana by 9:00 PM and stayed in the same hotel. Breakfast attendant asked how many days we would be staying with them Ripped it on home and got home by 4:30 for her to watch Jeopardy.

.

Doing something for someone else is one of the greatest joys in life.

I agree!

You really only learn through failures so today was successful. Only there are more lessons than days left.

Well said!

WOW! Note to future Patlun: Thanks for taking the time to post on my birthday. I'll be an old man by the time you read this. Your post "way back when" was greatly appreciated.

Spoiler alert: I did not wind up rich and famous.

From future Patlun to the old man – I am happy I did, and I must say better old than dead. And to have enough to enjoy life is nothing to sneeze at. Those rich and famous seems pretty dull in my eyes.

On top of all some Blackberry jam

And now I have some things on my wish list. Things like metal lathe, a mill, a 3D router, a MIG, a bigger shop and of course lots of time to learn to use them. I have many years left before I have six Saturdays a week, but if I start learning now I will have the knowledge then.

 

[patlun]

And while I wrote that wall of text you post this. I like that old high tech

This big old stationary engine is cool.

And my job was fireman.

Burning sawmill slabs from the steam powered sawmill.

 

[Sifan]

if anyone is interested:

https://www.americanthresherman.com/images/augustshow2019.pdf

 

[dchance]

Andy, it looks like a great time. I'm sorry I missed it. I go sometimes but I looked at the weather for Friday and saw mud. I thought today would be nice but the grounds still muddy.

Dwight

 

[oldironfarmer]

Many years ago I was actually Fireman myself, but that was on an 0-4-0 Saddle tank locomotive, back in UK.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Very cool! Was that coal or oil fired? Surely not wood? You never know what folks around here have done. (and some of the things we don't really want to know)

Andy: it sounds like a fun day. ENJOY!!

we have a STEAM UP in Salem,Oregon that i've tried to drive (3.5 hours one way) to for the last couple years and we are hoping to get down there this summer.

I love the old school tools and stuff and firing up that engine with wood in that old burner just makes me feel warm and cozy.

Hey it's SATURDAY here in the PNW today. sunny and maybe close to 70 degrees and zero wind.

cheers

It was a great day, probably 30 steam engines and 100 gasoline tractors running around. 71 and no wind.

Now I am here, sorry I am late! I have seen so many nice things and the thread has as many side tracks as Sakuramas (almost), squares, pantographs, Bobs tracks, some Boolean Algebra, 3D printers, old calculators, CNC routers, mobile network extenders microscopes.

Learned lots from your work with the Studebaker. It is a delight to see how you are solving the problems welding on that car, I am learning lots by seeing your thought processes. And I really hope I never need to repair a car that is in the same condition as that Studebaker. I really appreciate the work you showed us, but I would buy a newer car.

Here follows some highlights from the show. Sorry for the spoilers, but there is lots of other things to explore.


That small knife is very cute and very sharp looking.


This words about cross pollination is interesting. I think they connects very well to my own thinking.



I find ways to solve some problems in my work with software when I am reading about how you and others solve problems in seemly unrelated problem areas. Most be something strange with my brain, but I am very happy I have one And then Guster wrote this in the next post. So true for me.





Really loved reading about how you took your wife sightseeing in the shop. And your attitude to life seems so like the man I wish to be (I can’t be sure I meet my wishes, but I try.) To help a spouse in need is one of the reasons you married.



And you are providing some nice music. I was hearing Sons of the Pioneers singing in my head when reading that.



.

I agree!



Well said!





From future Patlun to the old man – I am happy I did, and I must say better old than dead. And to have enough to enjoy life is nothing to sneeze at. Those rich and famous seems pretty dull in my eyes.

On top of all some Blackberry jam

And now I have some things on my wish list. Things like metal lathe, a mill, a 3D router, a MIG, a bigger shop and of course lots of time to learn to use them. I have many years left before I have six Saturdays a week, but if I start learning now I will have the knowledge then.

You are too kind. Many thanks for posting such nice words!

And while I wrote that wall of text you post this. I like that old high tech

if anyone is interested:

https://www.americanthresherman.com/images/augustshow2019.pdf

That looks like a very good show, but I see they already have a broom maker.

Andy, it looks like a great time. I'm sorry I missed it. I go sometimes but I looked at the weather for Friday and saw mud. I thought today would be nice but the grounds still muddy.

Dwight

It was a soupy muddy mess off the roads. Roads were dry today. Pretty good day. Temperature was superb! Pictures later.

 

[Craptain]

Very cool! Was that coal or oil fired? Surely not wood? You never know what folks around here have done. (and some of the things we don't really want to know)

It was coal fired. There are a few things I remember about it, and probably a few I have forgotten. The fire was stoked in a horseshoe pattern around the inside of the firebox. Also had to know the route and where to start building up the fire before the extra steam was needed.
The whole crew of the railway were volunteers and quite a cast of characters. The other Fireman who taught me was a high diver in the carnival for his day job. The engine driver (engineer) ran a restaurant. The memories are starting to come back.


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[york]

it doesn't allow to me to post pics

 

[Sifan]

" but I see they already have a broom maker. "

Ahem ... I know some people that know some people that could sweep them off LOL

 

[cvairwerks]

Andy: A thought on your casting with a window. I'd think that the glass fracture problem is due to a combination of thermal stress and over restraint. The restraint problem can't be easily solved since the glass has to hold the pour until it cools enough. It might be worth a try to use a big heat gun to preheat the glass surface and keep it hot while the pour is going on.

Another thought is that maybe your glass guy has some heavyweight safety glass scrap you could try too.

 

[oldironfarmer]

It was coal fired. There are a few things I remember about it, and probably a few I have forgotten. The fire was stoked in a horseshoe pattern around the inside of the firebox. Also had to know the route and where to start building up the fire before the extra steam was needed.
The whole crew of the railway were volunteers and quite a cast of characters. The other Fireman who taught me was a high diver in the carnival for his day job. The engine driver (engineer) ran a restaurant. The memories are starting to come back.


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Thanks for posting those memories. I was new to the job and asked for instruction on firing the boiler. Just about 18" deep and keep it at 40 psi was the response. We got no feedback from the crew running the engines just complaints they were getting low on steam.

We were starting to figure it out when a rainstorm hit and chilled the boiler (uninsulated). Good experience in feedback loop control, no feedback so we were always behind the curve.

Your description of firing the locomotive is great. The average observer doesn't imagine there's anything to it other than shovel a little coal in when it gets low.

it doesn't allow to me to post pics

I think there's a built in delay.

"but I see they already have a broom maker. "

Ahem ... I know some people that know some people that could sweep them off LOL

Andy: A thought on your casting with a window. I'd think that the glass fracture problem is due to a combination of thermal stress and over restraint. The restraint problem can't be easily solved since the glass has to hold the pour until it cools enough. It might be worth a try to use a big heat gun to preheat the glass surface and keep it hot while the pour is going on.

Another thought is that maybe your glass guy has some heavyweight safety glass scrap you could try too.

Thanks for the thoughts. I have been concerned about restraint. I'm only using two clamps and they are loose. Some of the aluminum leaks into the slight gap from loose glass. It does not seem to help.

Preheating the glass will damage the foam plug, I did preheat one which had no plug and same result. I might not have had it hot enough.

We talked about the various glass products he has available. I could have had some laminated safety glass. His advice was that it was not tempered so would not last any longer than the plain glass though would not make as much of a mess.

So long as the mold fills before breakage I can live with breakage.

 

[oldironfarmer]

A few pictures from the steam show.

Mack started out with real trucks.

Sawmill, I was taking videos and failed to get a good still. But they have I think 56" blades, several new ones in storage. The boiler I was firing is on the near end of the red building in the background.

This picture does not do it justice, that is soupy mud.

They had a JD A pulling stuck visitors out in the parking lot.

 

[cvairwerks]

Andy, did a little looking for sources of high temp glass and came upon the fact that most of the windows in wood stoves are a high temp glass/ceramic combo that is rated to over 1000F. If you could find one on a dead stove, it might be worth trying.

 

[don long]

Looks like a fun day, going back in history.
That old white truck is a monster

 

[oldironfarmer]

Andy, did a little looking for sources of high temp glass and came upon the fact that most of the windows in wood stoves are a high temp glass/ceramic combo that is rated to over 1000F. If you could find one on a dead stove, it might be worth trying.

Thanks! I'll be looking.

Looks like a fun day, going back in history.
That old white truck is a monster

I was on level ground with the Mack, it is BIG!

Not a polished video, here's some of the shots I got at the steam show.

Pawnee Steam Tractor Show 2019

 

[Grizz1963]

Steam and traction shows ,are great.

 

[bolensboneyard]

what fun!

 

[oldironfarmer]

Got back on the old Globe lift for my son. He about has the excavation finished. Lift is ready to go except for painting the upper and freeing the guide rod. Guide rod is a 2" pipe in a 2-1/2" pipe (2-3/8" OD in 2-7/8" OD which makes a nice fit).

After months of soaking and pounding, cut it one foot from the open end.

A couple of hours of pounding and it finally came off. Still stuck, cut it one more foot down. Then started slitting 5 ft of pipe and got it loose.

For a good fit the 2-1/2" pipe needs to be schedule 40, all I have is schedule 80 which is a bit snug. Wasted a lot of time trying to reclaim the old pipe. Inside pipe looks good, so I'll round up a piece of sch 40.

 

[y'sguy]

I can't tell what sort of tool you used to cut the pipe casing? You made it look easy. It probably wasn't!
Going to be neat to watch it get back into action.

 

[oldironfarmer]

I can't tell what sort of tool you used to cut the pipe casing? You made it look easy. It probably wasn't!
Going to be neat to watch it get back into action.

Nothing special, a 1/16" cutoff blade on an angle die grinder. Slow but easy.

 

[bolensboneyard]

It Reminds me of trying to salvage front end model A parts. Three hundred dollars worth of gas, ox, and penetrating oil to save two original spring perches. Oh well, I would spend hours washing crude oil off of a duck too, and I don't even particularly like them roasted? But, it makes me happy.

 

[y'sguy]

OH, okay, Iswaw that blue handled pipe thing next to it and thought that's what you used. What is that?

 

[Guster]

Wow. Glad to hear there was no storm damage. Looks like a great day at the Oklahoma Steam Thresher's Association show. Other than the mud making it a great day to drive around in a vintage tractor. Rare to see those old engines running under their own steam. Most of the original steam engine displays here are run by a hidden electric motor while some guy runs around making a show of oiling everything. Not quite the same. Otherwise you have to go on the special show days where they set them up to run for a few minutes. With fire brigade on standby and crowds blocking views of the good stuff. Would be a joy to see the large beam engine running - https://www.motat.org.nz/media/3310/pumphousefactsheet-2015-web.pdf

The new crucible looks great. How does the spout keep up with casting bigger objects? Been catching up with your glass shattering experiments on YouTube as they come up on my feed. Have you tried pre-heating the glass yet in order to reduce the thermal difference, reducing the chance of thermal shock?

 

[sawduststeve]

Andy, gotta love a good steam fair, thanks for posting yours.
We have the Epping-Ongar railway, very local. A three station volunteer run line.
They have various events during the year, fish and chip nights , curry nights and
quizes, we love the santa special. A very good mate was a fireman on the trains here,
shovelling the coal until his heart attack, he's ok now but had to give up the
Casey Jones life.

Steve

 

[Farmall450]

I just got home from school tonight, and was able to finally utilize my Andy gifts. Thank you for helping me finish my Wilton Bullet Resto!!!

 

[oldironfarmer]

It Reminds me of trying to salvage front end model A parts. Three hundred dollars worth of gas, ox, and penetrating oil to save two original spring perches. Oh well, I would spend hours washing crude oil off of a duck too, and I don't even particularly like them roasted? But, it makes me happy.

Really this part has no antique value, but I just like to save stuff.

OH, okay, Iswaw that blue handled pipe thing next to it and thought that's what you used. What is that?

The blue handled pipe thing is my knock off Beverly shear. One of my most valuable tools.

https://www.eastwood.com/throatless-shear.html

Wow. Glad to hear there was no storm damage. Looks like a great day at the Oklahoma Steam Thresher's Association show. Other than the mud making it a great day to drive around in a vintage tractor. Rare to see those old engines running under their own steam. Most of the original steam engine displays here are run by a hidden electric motor while some guy runs around making a show of oiling everything. Not quite the same. Otherwise you have to go on the special show days where they set them up to run for a few minutes. With fire brigade on standby and crowds blocking views of the good stuff. Would be a joy to see the large beam engine running - https://www.motat.org.nz/media/3310/pumphousefactsheet-2015-web.pdf

I don't go to the Pawnee show often enough. It is only once per year, but seems to roll around pretty often. Engines are all privately owned, and it's pretty much a family thing. They have to keep them tested and insured. Other than that they show up and fire them up and drive them around as they like. They have an incline, but don't know if they still use it. The talented guys intentionally bounce the front wheels off the ramp. It takes balls. This is at Pawnee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=208&v=DG6BvfJI0Yo

After hours there are special events for owners, like a go slow race. Last one across the finish line wins, but if they stall at TDC or BDC they can't manually turn the flywheel to get off center.

They get no financial assistance, they just demonstrate their private equipment like a car show.

The new crucible looks great. How does the spout keep up with casting bigger objects? Been catching up with your glass shattering experiments on YouTube as they come up on my feed. Have you tried pre-heating the glass yet in order to reduce the thermal difference, reducing the chance of thermal shock?

Spout does fine on what I've poured. Five pounds easy. It all depends on the size of your runners.

I've been busting my glass. I tried preheating one of the first, but couldn't tell the difference. With the foam any preheat will melt the foam. I don't really mind losing the glass, but I'm about to run out.

The one piece of borosilicate glass I tried lasted a lot longer but still exploded.

Andy, gotta love a good steam fair, thanks for posting yours.
We have the Epping-Ongar railway, very local. A three station volunteer run line.
They have various events during the year, fish and chip nights , curry nights and
quizes, we love the santa special. A very good mate was a fireman on the trains here,
shovelling the coal until his heart attack, he's ok now but had to give up the
Casey Jones life.

Steve

That's pretty cool! Glad his heart attack was a warning.

My friend's widow called, so I now own a sawmill. 36" log, 16 ft cut.

And it came with four cant hooks and two dozen blades.

Watch out, trees!!

 

[Farmall450]

Excellent. My aunt's dad had one, and a friend bought it at his auction. Woodmizer. It's actually great for hay racks!

 

[RickP]

Nice sawmill! I'll bet your friend's wife was glad to see it go to a good home. Between following you and Bobby, I'm having a hard time resisting getting a sawmill. But until then, it's fun watching you guys making sawdust from afar.

Looks like you've been busier than ever lately - amazing what you get done in a week. What did you do before you had six Saturdays? Something tells me it was a lot. Just seeing all the casting (and glass breakage) that you do is tiring.

I imagine rising early on the farm every day puts a premium on getting chores done quickly, but still allows you to get a bunch of other work done each day. Did you run cattle before you retired?

 

[jimreed2160]

Nice saw.

 

[Craptain]

Andy, gotta love a good steam fair, thanks for posting yours.
We have the Epping-Ongar railway, very local. A three station volunteer run line.
They have various events during the year, fish and chip nights , curry nights and
quizes, we love the santa special. A very good mate was a fireman on the trains here,
shovelling the coal until his heart attack, he's ok now but had to give up the
Casey Jones life.

Steve[emoji481]

Steve, if you get down to the West Country, check out the West Somerset Railway. That's where I fired the Loco just like the one you posted.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[cvairwerks]

If you guys like the big steamers, this is one I wish I had known about the last time I was in the UK:

 

[drivesitfar]

Andy: I have to say I probably won't ever own a farm or raise cattle or chickens and i probably won't melt metal and forge stuff for several years, but milling wood has my ATTENTION cause i'm building a fence and a deck this summer.

that mill looks like it could be set up and ready to cut logs tomorrow or do you have some set up and some fixing to do to it before it starts making sawdust?

always fun checking in on your doings and keep on going cause you beat that energizer bunny all to heck.

cheers

sunny and mid 80's here today and no wind!

 

[oldironfarmer]

I just got home from school tonight, and was able to finally utilize my Andy gifts. Thank you for helping me finish my Wilton Bullet Resto!!!

I'm so glad it fit. Looks like you need jaws.

Excellent. My aunt's dad had one, and a friend bought it at his auction. Woodmizer. It's actually great for hay racks!

Hmm, I never thought about hauling round bales on it.

Nice sawmill! I'll bet your friend's wife was glad to see it go to a good home. Between following you and Bobby, I'm having a hard time resisting getting a sawmill. But until then, it's fun watching you guys making sawdust from afar.

Resistance is futile. Just get one and make me feel normal.

Looks like you've been busier than ever lately - amazing what you get done in a week. What did you do before you had six Saturdays? Something tells me it was a lot. Just seeing all the casting (and glass breakage) that you do is tiring.

I imagine rising early on the farm every day puts a premium on getting chores done quickly, but still allows you to get a bunch of other work done each day. Did you run cattle before you retired?

I don't work all that hard. I'm old and slow. I did have cattle before I retired. I was custom baling hay evenings and weekends and bought cattle as a way to market poor hay. Kind of backwards but it worked well.

Nice saw.

I see, you saw, my saw, so, you see, I saw and you see me saw.

Steve, if you get down to the West Country, check out the West Somerset Railway. That's where I fired the Loco just like the one you posted.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Nice!

If you guys like the big steamers, this is one I wish I had known about the last time I was in the UK:

Andy: I have to say I probably won't ever own a farm or raise cattle or chickens and i probably won't melt metal and forge stuff for several years, but milling wood has my ATTENTION cause i'm building a fence and a deck this summer.

Harbor freight actually has a pretty good sawmill for $2,000.

that mill looks like it could be set up and ready to cut logs tomorrow or do you have some set up and some fixing to do to it before it starts making sawdust?

It needs the battery charged.

always fun checking in on your doings and keep on going cause you beat that energizer bunny all to heck.

cheers

sunny and mid 80's here today and no wind!

It's always nice to have you stop by. We've had a cool spell, 54F at 6:00 PM.

Exercise night!!

 

[Farmall450]

Haha, I meant more like making racks. We had 3 gears that my brother, his friend, and I put beds and standards on from sliced up comed poles.

I have jaws, smooth ones, just need to get some matched hardware!

 

[dchance]

Andy,
When you figure a way to get more than 6 Saturday’s in a week let me know. With the addition of the sawmill 6 may not be enough.

Last year they did use the incline at Pawnee. Seems like it is a hit and miss instead of being every year. I will say that the drivers that do it are good. Not just bouncing but not running off of the top.

Dwight

 

[bolensboneyard]

Andy welcome to the club. Nice mill. Start looking for a heavy plane. Don't you wish we had more time now that all these new options have entered into our lives? I refuse to build any boxes that look like you could put a body in one of them!

 

[oldironfarmer]

Haha, I meant more like making racks. We had 3 gears that my brother, his friend, and I put beds and standards on from sliced up comed poles.

I have jaws, smooth ones, just need to get some matched hardware!

"We had three gears"

For our non-farm audience, that's three trailer running gear.

But I don't know what "comed" poles are.

Andy,
When you figure a way to get more than 6 Saturday’s in a week let me know. With the addition of the sawmill 6 may not be enough.

Last year they did use the incline at Pawnee. Seems like it is a hit and miss instead of being every year. I will say that the drivers that do it are good. Not just bouncing but not running off of the top.

Dwight

Six Saturdays is plenty. It's wearing me out. But work for the sawmill is falling out of the sky, I think there'll be plenty.

Glad the incline still gets use.

That was good.

What? What did I miss?

Andy welcome to the club. Nice mill. Start looking for a heavy plane. Don't you wish we had more time now that all these new options have entered into our lives? I refuse to build any boxes that look like you could put a body in one of them!

Thanks, Bobby! More time, hmmm, I could start more ventures...

I agree, but remember when you're in the casket things are looking up.

Went to see my son, he has logs to saw.

But the immediate need was getting the floor lift in the ground. It is not ready for him, but he is not ready for it. Very tough compacted sand/clay.

He needs 8' 6" and had 5' 10". With groundwater seeping in.

Jackhammer weighs 60 pounds. He had a round bottom hole. It was hard to maneuver in a tight space, so we rolled his gantry crane over it and suspended the jackhammer from a rope. He would raise the hammer and I would start it in the wall and he would lower it and give me the weight to bust the soil. It broke up easily but the post hole diggers would clang and bounce where it had not been hammered. Very tough stuff. Even wet. It may be a few thousand years away from rock.

We finished up a hard day at 6' 8" with a good square bottom. We returned the rented hammer and bought a HF 35# hammer which breaks the stuff fine and he can finish alone over several days. I think the lift will have a stable footing.

 

[RickP]

Wow, that sounds like some brutal digging in very tight quarters. I'll bet your son really appreciated the help. It's nice that he lives close enough for you to make the round trip and still get home at a reasonable hour, after a hard day's work.

I've talked with geotech engineers who go down in deep holes to inspect the bottom before pouring concrete caissons. I don't know how they do it. That 6'8" hole you were standing in would be about as deep as I'd want to go.

 

[Farmall450]

Wow, that's quite deep. Is he getting some sort of pump pit in there to drain it? I can't imagine the lift is set down too far, but I also wouldn't want to risk it drowning.

ComEd -- commonwealth edison around here.

 

[oldironfarmer]

Wow, that sounds like some brutal digging in very tight quarters. I'll bet your son really appreciated the help. It's nice that he lives close enough for you to make the round trip and still get home at a reasonable hour, after a hard day's work.

I've talked with geotech engineers who go down in deep holes to inspect the bottom before pouring concrete caissons. I don't know how they do it. That 6'8" hole you were standing in would be about as deep as I'd want to go.

He lives two hours away. A little farther than I'd like but was not my decision.

I'm a little claustrophobic, but that didn't bother me. I did ask whether he liked having his dear old dad six feet under.

Wow, that's quite deep. Is he getting some sort of pump pit in there to drain it? I can't imagine the lift is set down too far, but I also wouldn't want to risk it drowning.

ComEd -- commonwealth edison around here.

No drain. We'll dump concrete in the bottom and let it set under water then set the lift on the concrete in a couple of inches of fresh concrete and fill with sand. Once consolidated it won't be too wet. Also plan on putting cathodic protection on it.

I've heard of Com Ed, didn't think about them being comed, but I have seen them raked over the coals.