Adding circuits to an already full panel - what are my options?

[stickshift]

Update: If you've been following along, just skip ahead to post #81 for updates.

OP:
I'm looking to add several circuits - 3 x 120V 20A lines and 1 x 220V 20A line. Is that possible with this panel - seems there is some free space underneath the existing breakers. Meaning, can I either extend the main line feed strips that the breakers connect to (not sure if they make extension kits), or can I replace the existing breakers with slimmer breakers? The existing breakers are ~1" tall (the bottom ones are connected together, and some of the others are split into 2 separate circuits).

Or is the better option to set up a sub-panel, and move one of the existing circuits over (to free up a slot to feed the sub-panel), and add all the new circuits to the sub?

 

[PCustoms]

You could free up 1 breaker, max.

That panel is full. I'd do a replacement. You could do a sub, but probably just as easy to replace the whole thing wit a modern, larger panel.

How is this fed?

Attached or detached building?

 

[Bert_]

First I would find and slap the guy who put in that 12 space service panel. Unfortunately this type of thing was sort of common at one point.

Best thing to do is is replace the whole thing with at least a 20 space panel, 30 would be better.

I would also take a look at that service cable. It looks like it should be replaced. Especially if any part of it runs outside.

 

[mm08822]

This panel is ripe for an upgrade. Even if you keep it at 100a service, you could still upgrade to a panel with more branch circuit space.

You can probably add a quad breaker also free up 2 more spaces, but then you are 100% maxed out.

Provide a readable pic of the panel label - cb's, accessories, ratings, etc.

What is the load on the 2 pole 40a cb? It looks like #12 (possibly #10) wired to it?

 

[alfredeneuman]

What's with the 15A breakers on the bottom left side ganged together with a copper wire?
If 240 it should have a 2 pole like the 40 directly across from it.

 

[mm08822]

What's with the 15A breakers on the bottom left side ganged together with a copper wire?
If 240 it should have a 2 pole like the 40 directly across from it.

Couldn't find the right size nails?

 

[sreeb]

Replace the 220v, 40 with a quad 220v, 40a,20a. Replace the copper ganged 220v, 15a with a quad 220v,15a 2x120v, 15a.

 

[ez-duzit]

Replace the panel with one that uses the same style breakers. That way you can reuse all the existing breakers.

 

[txvwnut]

I vote to replace the panel as well.

 

[Jim greengo]

Go with a bigger panel,everything is already doubled up in there.

 

[Stuff]

Best to replace the panel. Not enough free spaces in the neutral bar even if you add a separate ground bar.

Adding a sub-panel can work, just not as clean. It is a lot easier for DIY as don't have to involve power company.

You are probably OK but technically should do a load calc to see if 100 amp is still a large enough service with the additional loads.

 

[stickshift]

How is this fed?

Attached or detached building?

Standalone house, wire coming from power line on pole outside.

First I would find and slap the guy who put in that 12 space service panel. Unfortunately this type of thing was sort of common at one point.

From the 1960s.

This panel is ripe for an upgrade. Even if you keep it at 100a service, you could still upgrade to a panel with more branch circuit space.

What does upgrading to a larger amperage circuit entail? Power co. or my electrician runs a new line from the transformer up on the pole?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Replace the panel with one that uses the same style breakers. That way you can reuse all the existing breakers.

Those are BRs and are garbage. No point in reusing them to save a few bucks.

Standalone house, wire coming from power line on pole outside.

Is there a disconnect after your meter?

From the 1960s.

What does upgrading to a larger amperage circuit entail? Power co. or my electrician runs a new line from the transformer up on the pole?

PoCos disconnects power, new line ran in riser pipe down to meter and then new line ran from meter pan or disconnect into main panel.

 

[Bert_]

What does upgrading to a larger amperage circuit entail? Power co. or my electrician runs a new line from the transformer up on the pole?

You would need to replace the service cable that connects to your main breaker (looks like in needs replaced anyway), the meter box and the wire going up the side of the house. The overhead wire is the utility company's responsibility, they probably won't even change it unless you are adding serious load.

Looks like wylie is a faster typer the me.

 

[James-W]

Standalone house, wire coming from power line on pole outside.

From the 1960s.

What does upgrading to a larger amperage circuit entail? Power co. or my electrician runs a new line from the transformer up on the pole?

To upgrade the service panel with a new larger one, you need to kill power to the house so that all the wiring can be removed from the old panel and the new panel installed. Check with the AHJ and see if you can do the work yourself, or if you have to have a licensed electrician do it. Different jurisdictions have different rules so be sure to check into it before you do anything.

You will need a permit (at least around here you do) and you will need to have it inspected when you are finished. To kill power to the house usually the meter is pulled, but if you upgrade to a 200 amp service you will most likely need to replace the wires from the meter base to the main service panel so having the power shut off at the pole would make more sense. Depending on what gauge the wires are from the pole to the meter, they may also need to be replaced, but the power company will replace them so that isn't something you need to worry about. You will need to replace the wires from the meter up to the mast head, but the connections to the main power line will be done by the power company.

 

[mm08822]

Standalone house, wire coming from power line on pole outside.

From the 1960s.

What does upgrading to a larger amperage circuit entail? Power co. or my electrician runs a new line from the transformer up on the pole?

100 to 200a upgrade for o/h service in my neck of the woods requires replacement of the weatherhead, se cable, meterpan, and into new main panel. Add 2 grd rods and bonding to water and gas lines.

Some POCO's will provide a meterpan, others let you purchase it.

Always best to call POCO first and let them perform a "meter survey" to confirm if existing meter location is acceptable for new service. Usually it is fine where it currently is.
Occasionally they want a load calc to determine if they need to upgrade more of their equipment than just replacing the o/h drop from the pole to the house. Make the call and inquire. It won't cost you anything.

If most of your hardware is from 60/70's, the exterior components are due for replacement.

Lot's of people go with 200a upgrade whether needed or not, b/c it is an eventual selling point. If you have gas appliances and heater, you probably dont need 200a.

A 100a service panel is easily found up to 30 spaces. A 200a service panel can easily be found with 40 spaces.

I would not re-use ~50 year old cb's in a service upgrade.

 

[stickshift]

Those are BRs and are garbage. No point in reusing them to save a few bucks.

Agreed. If replacing everything else, the CBs are the least of the expenses.

Is there a disconnect after your meter?

Between the meter and the main breaker on the panel? I don't think so.

Wouldn't pulling the meter out disconnect power downstream of the meter? Otherwise we could all get free electricity.

 

[stickshift]

Seems the consensus is replace the panel (and upgrade to 200A service - though I doubt we'd ever trip 100A). Why not add a sub-panel? Seems like that would be easier - something I could do myself.

 

[ez-duzit]

Seems the consensus is replace the panel (and upgrade to 200A service - though I doubt we'd ever trip 100A). Why not add a sub-panel? Seems like that would be easier - something I could do myself.

Since you're just going to ignore the advice you asked for anyway, sure, go ahead and just add a sub-panel. You can do any of it yourself, including replacement.

 

[stickshift]

Since you're just going to ignore the advice you asked for anyway, sure, go ahead and just add a sub-panel. You can do any of it yourself, including replacement.

I'm not ignoring the advice, I'm trying to understand the rationale.

 

[mm08822]

I'm not ignoring the advice, I'm trying to understand the rationale.

Post some pics of the outside hardware.

 

[pattenp]

The easiest DIY solution is to add a subpanel provided the 100A is enough supply for your added circuit loads.

 

[stickshift]

Post some pics of the outside hardware.

Not much to see - just a pipe running down from the power line connection high up, near the roof, down to the meter, and then another pipe running down from the meter and turning into the house. Definitely no disconnect downstream of the meter. And I can't remove the meter; can't even have an electrician remove it, I think only the power co is authorized to do that.

Pic of service line running into the panel below.

 

[stickshift]

The easiest DIY solution is to add a subpanel provided the 100A is enough supply for your added circuit loads.

That's what I was thinking. I think 100A will be sufficient because the simultaneous loads are never high.

That said, if I were going to replace the main panel, I would certainly consider upgrading to 200A since the marginal expense is probably not large, and as was pointed out earlier, it's a selling point because most prospective homebuyers would probably look at a 100A service and factor in the cost of upgrading to 200A.

I know this is GJ and moar power is always preferred, but seems to me that replacing the main panel would be quite a bit more expensive than adding a sub-panel. That said, I don't know all the pros/cons, so I'm definitely open-minded on the route to take here.

 

[Stuff]

If you see an electric car in your future then an upgraded panel is the way to go.

 

[Stuff]

[deleted post]

 

[mike93lx]

Seems the consensus is replace the panel (and upgrade to 200A service - though I doubt we'd ever trip 100A). Why not add a sub-panel? Seems like that would be easier - something I could do myself.

If you have gas appliances and no intention to get an electric car, just keep it at 100a, although if you are replacing everything, the incremental cost is not significant.

Around me, swapping everything for new 100a would be about 1500-2000. Upgrading to 200a would be 200-500 more

 

[stickshift]

If you have gas appliances and no intention to get an electric car, just keep it at 100a, although if you are replacing everything, the incremental cost is not significant.

Around me, swapping everything for new 100a would be about 1500-2000. Upgrading to 200a would be 200-500 more

Yep, on gas for stove, boiler, water heater.

Yeah, if I go the new panel route, I'd opt to bump it up to 200A - not much more expensive and probably increases value of house by at least as much as the cost differential.

So the real question is new panel or sub-panel.

 

[Bert_]

If the outside stuff is decent you can just replace the panel. I would seriously consider replacing the service cable that is connected to the main breaker since it looks kind of ratty.

The reason most people, myself included, say replace it all is that when it looks like your first picture everything is usually shot.

It would be different if you had a more modern 20sp 100a panel that happened to be full. The panel you have was the bottom of the barrel when it was put in. If you're going to to add a few circuits this is the time to update it.

 

[mike93lx]

Yep, on gas for stove, boiler, water heater.

Yeah, if I go the new panel route, I'd opt to bump it up to 200A - not much more expensive and probably increases value of house by at least as much as the cost differential.

So the real question is new panel or sub-panel.

Why are you still asking that? The advice is clear, new panel

 

[stickshift]

Why are you still asking that? The advice is clear, new panel

Because the cost differential between sub-panel and new main panel is huge (the small cost differential I was referring to above is new 100A main panel vs new 200A main panel, where I agree that IF going with new panel, might as well go whole hog and make it 200A).

Sub-panel I can do myself. Main panel I have to hire an electrician. How much does a new sub-panel and sufficiently large gauge wires run? Probably on the order of a $100. New 200A panel? I'm guessing NY prices are in the same general vicinity as what you have in MA. So I'm looking at ~$100 vs ~$2000. In some cases, it's definitely worth the more expensive option. But is that the case here? That's what I'm trying to get a handle on.

Yes, the advice was get a new main panel. I'm just not clear on the rationale, given that I have gas appliances and don't expect to run 100A loads. Is my current main panel a fire hazard? If it's to increase home value, sure, I agree that it would. But there's lots of things I can do to increase home value that I'm not planning on doing anytime soon.

 

[ez-duzit]

...Sub-panel I can do myself. Main panel I have to hire an electrician...

Baloney.

If you are qualified to install a sub-panel, you can easily replace the main.

Unsubscribed.

 

[mike93lx]

Do what you want.

Your panel is past its useful life and should be replaced. Like many other maintenance items around the house

 

[Stuff]

OP's panel looks more like late 1970s. What is the useful life of an electrical panel? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Did find UL study: https://web.archive.org/web/2012022....org/assets/files/pdf/research/resareport.pdf

Residential overcurrent devices, which consisted mostly of fuses before the
1950s and circuit breakers after the 1950s, continue to perform as expected,
unless they have been subjected to abuse or misuse. If properly installed and
maintained, these overcurrent devices continue to provide protection to the wires
and cables installed on the residential circuits.

 

[mm08822]

Not much to see - just a pipe running down from the power line connection high up, near the roof, down to the meter, and then another pipe running down from the meter and turning into the house. Definitely no disconnect downstream of the meter. And I can't remove the meter; can't even have an electrician remove it, I think only the power co is authorized to do that.

Pic of service line running into the panel below.

Pics still needed as requested.
What is conduit size?
How does conduit transition to se cable?
Who is the Poco?
You know for a fact or you are quessing about meter removal? It varies by poco.

 

[James-W]

It sounds to me like you are going with the sub-panel because it would be less expensive, so I suggest going ahead and doing it. Just keep in mind that the cheapest way is usually not the best way.

 

[75gmck25]

Most folks on GJ like to plan for future upgrades, and they also like new stuff that looks good and is installed neatly. That's probably why you get so many recommendations for a new main panel. However, adding a subpanel would also work fine.

In your price comparison you are mixing apples and oranges (more or less). If you can install a subpanel for $100, then you can install a 100 amp main panel for about $200-250 (mainly because you need more breakers). The cost to upgrade to 200 amp service and replace a panel is probably $2000, but you can install a new panel without upgrading service.

One possibility: If you install a 200 amp main panel (or lower amperage) and but use a 100 amp main breaker, you will have a new panel that is code compliant and be ready for a future 200 amp heavy up. If you want to spend more money later, do the heavy up then and put the 200 amp main breaker back in the panel.

Bruce

 

[mike93lx]

OP's panel looks more like late 1970s. What is the useful life of an electrical panel? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Did find UL study: https://web.archive.org/web/2012022....org/assets/files/pdf/research/resareport.pdf

IMO, past its useful life doesn't mean it is going to fail imminently or that it doesn't function.

It is old enough that it is reasonable to expect breakers to fail, corrosion to take over, it can't be expanded/upgraded, etc.

Just because it flows electricity doesn't mean it's fine. Sure it may not be top priority for replacement, but I would be planning for it.

 

[BigGarage]

Seems the consensus is replace the panel (and upgrade to 200A service - though I doubt we'd ever trip 100A). Why not add a sub-panel? Seems like that would be easier - something I could do myself.

My main panel is very old and uses the Pushamatic breakers. It was an upgrade at the time it was installed. It only has 20 spaces and I wanted more.

I had already mounted a 60 amp sub-panel and had the wiring ran to the 1st floor and had the wiring going into the main panel. I added a 60 amp breaker and was all set to go when my boiler went bad in January. After having a new one installed I needed to have it inspected by a electrical and also a mechanical inspector. I took down the subpanel and all the attendant wiring and stored it away out of sight. I knew that my work had to be inspected and I did not know if I needed a permit for it.

I have since decided to get the main panel upgraded so it's bigger and new. For me it's simply not worth the work to remount everything I had done when I can have newer & bigger for probably $2000 or less.

You'll need to make your own choice but I'd recommend a new panel. When I get mine done, hopefully in the next two weeks, I'll post the cost here and take a few pics.

Dennis

 

[Stuff]

IMO, past its useful life doesn't mean it is going to fail imminently or that it doesn't function.

It is old enough that it is reasonable to expect breakers to fail, corrosion to take over, it can't be expanded/upgraded, etc.

Just because it flows electricity doesn't mean it's fine. Sure it may not be top priority for replacement, but I would be planning for it.

What is old enough to expect failures? No one will give an answer in years, let alone justify it with evidence.

If old enough what about swapping out all the breakers for new (if availalble)?