Move over Snap-on have a viable competitor for ratchets

[WittHay]

I've never owned or used a Ko-ken ratchet. Their product line seems very limited (5/16" bit ratchets aside)

I don't see them becoming very popular among Automotive/Heavy Equipment mechanics.

Koken has always made top quality sockets and unique products. The socket on the right is a 1" drive 4 point socket for Budd truck wheels. Only Budd socket I have seen with the collar on it. Makes it faster and easier when using 30 lb. impact wrenches. Proto 4 point socket 2nd picture

Koken at one time was rebranded for Westward and was available at local parts/industrial places up here. The quality is equal to the best Proto heavy duty impact sockets made over the years.

Koken is the same as Hazet, among the best in quality but not readily available. Have some larger Hazet torx bit sockets that I like better than Snap-on

 

[CR888]

One would be kinda foolish to look down on Koken tools. They don't have a huge range of tool types but the the types they focus on they have an extensive range that is renowned for quality worldwide. Japan along with Germany produces the best tool steel in the world period, and have for many years. Many comments in this thread are comical at best but mainly based on misinformation and product biases.

 

[visionguru]

These are my 1/4" Snap-On's.

.....
What you perceive as sharpness/uniformness of engravings is actually a focus/lighting issue. I think Koken stamping is if anything sharper and better defined. Here are two Kokens and a Snapon.

View media item 94070
Note also that Koken doesn't need to brag like Snapon does. The stamping is properly on the bottom rather than all over the head.

I'm not a fan of Snap-On's new stamping style, especially newest with "USA", plain stupid and ugly. Already there is a "USA" at the handle. Agreed, it's bragging. I prefer older style stamping: deep and sharp.



I don't know why they changed the stamping, the only thing make sense to me is: style change. Though there are metal deformations at the edge, the stampings on the head are still pretty deep and uniform.

From you picture, I noticed the following:
The Koken to the right has crude, industrial finish, the "Koken" logo is shallow and weak. Is the backing plate uneven? The flat part of the handle seems rough. The chrome plating looks much thinner than Snap On. Is there a part number stamped somewhere? Based on the workmanship (finishing quality), this Koken is a $30 ratchet.

The chrome on the ratchet to the left seems better, but still looks thinner and not as shinny (especially the head). The "MADE IN JAPAN 169" looks uneven, like someone punched on by hand. The white screw breaks harmony, it would have looked better on both side with a heat treated screw. The blacking plate lacks detail. Based on the workmanship, this Koken is a $50 ratchet.

This is Snap On, notice the recessed area at the screws, and the perfect stamping on the handle.

Snapon, direction switch finish quality: are you serious? Their directional lever "design process" looks like they finished the head, and somebody realized that it was supposed to have a directional level. So he spat on the head and they drilled the hole for the lever over the wet spot. Koken is superior here.

Let's examine the rebuild kits of Koken vs Snap On

The Snap On selector may require forging. Koken seems made out stamped metal sheet.
The 2 sealing gasket
heat treated screws for strength
locktite

What looks to have better quality? Is Koken "superior" or "generic"? I'll let others to chip in.

Koken designs for what they think matters. That coincides with what a lot of us think Assuming sufficient strength and reliability in use, my criteria are more like:
1) Backdrag
2) Slop
3) Consistency of above between different units

I don't know under what situation "backdrag" is a problem. I use my ratchets for auto maintenance. I always start a bolt with hand (to avoid cross threading), and I always unscrew a bolt with hand for the last few threads (to avoid the bolt/nut dropping into engine bay). Never had to use ratchet at a few inch-oz torque level.


I don't know under what condition a low tooth count ratchet (24/36 teeth) can have lower backdrag than a 72 teeth. The back drag is created by the paws. Weaker springs would allow that. Sloppy fit (such as paws not fully engaging) would allow that. In both cases, the ratchet won't have good strength.

You're kidding, right? Let's take a closer look at two Dual-really-72 Snapon made ratchets and three Koken ratchets (two 1/4" drive, one 1/4" bit - basically the same as the OP's except 1/4" rather than 5/16").

View media item 94068(Koken bit ratchet and Snapon were upgraded with Hazet hard plastic handles. Wiha-handled Koken was at one time, though sadly no longer, sold by Wiha.)

And a close up of the head finishing:
View media item 94069
In terms of finish quality, IMO it's Koken Zeal, Koken, Bahco Dual-really-72, Snapon Dual-really-72. Interestingly, for those who really care, Bahco stamping is much cleaner than Snapon stamping.

We have different eyes/focus/standards for finishing quality, let's leave at that.
BTW, I like the handles in your 1/4" collection.

Never mind that Koken's head is markedly smaller in every dimension. That, like Koken's markedly superior feel in use, has actual real world ramifications in a way that brand and part number stamping does not.


Snapon is a public general tool corporation that regularly redistributes profits to shareholders and sells primarily through franchised delivery vans. Koken is a privately held company that specializes in socketry....

Autozone sells a 72 (or 90) teeth 1/4 quick release ratchet with the smallest head I've seen. Tekton 90 teeth ratchet feels pretty compact too.

Frankly, I don't think Snap On 1/4" ratchets offer much better performance than cheap 72T ones. Snap On's Dual-80 shines at 1/2" drive, so smooth. In terms of finishing quality and design, Snap On is outstanding. That may help to explain its popularity among auto mechanics. Gearwrench's finish is no where near Snap On, but in terms of performance and ingenuity, I'd rank it at top among all ratchets on the market.

Have you noticed that your Koken Zeal the gap on one side is larger than the other at the flex? As I mentioned before, low backdrag may be causes by low tension spring and sloppy fit. From the internals, Koken looks from 80s. Instead of "superior", it's rather on the cheaply made/generic side.

As far as I know, KTC is the top brand in Japan, and has similar following among the auto mechanics as Snap On in the U.S.. It seems to me Koken is more like industrial brands Proto or Williams. Not a threat and not on the same grade level as Snap On, IMHO.

 

[JBH]

As for warranty, I don't expect that I'll need any.

One has to give props to whoever invented the magical marketing tool “warranty.” It has such a hold on some people that they even bring it up in discussions of a bit ratchet.

If you don't mind a "like new" ratchet off a secondary distribution channel of some sort, then you can more realistically compare prices of what is current

Of course, Snapon not purchased from a delivery van franchise or their website is Snapon without any warranty. I expect most of the people overpaying for used stuff don’t realize that.

 

[BarryWells]

One has to give props to whoever invented the magical marketing tool “warranty.” It has such a hold on some people that they even bring it up in discussions of a bit ratchet.




Of course, Snapon not purchased from a delivery van franchise or their website is Snapon without any warranty. I expect most of the people overpaying for used stuff don’t realize that.

I never had any issue. Tear it apart, take pics, email to the tech person and parts on the way. Seldom, of course. Snap ratchets don't break much unless the operator is an idiot( I R 1 )

 

[65k10]

Good thing Snap-On has got nice finish and stamping down. Maybe they can get around to figuring out how to drill a hole to a consistent depth.

 

[Hytekrednek]

https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B004IKS0QE/

Ko-Ken # is 2774P-5/16HF They also make a 1/4" one.

Thank you. I will be getting them both. I use these type ratchets all the time

 

[Mr_B]

even wamsutta should be impressed with koken
The fit and function of sockets and socket drives is about as good as it gets .
Really hard not to like something from koken and when see prices shipped to your door it pretty good value too .

 

[CR888]

even wamsutta should be impressed with koken
The fit and function of sockets and socket drives is about as good as it gets .
Really hard not to like something from koken and when see prices shipped to your door it pretty good value too .

While this might be all true, one poster is seriously concerned about the quality of the Koken sign on the ratchet and thinks the chrome isn't as thick as Snap On. And the pre-load on the pawl springs is less which not only gives the nice low back drag but it also too means the Koken is no good. If the brand sign is not deep enough clearly the ratchet is not up to professional standard like a Snap On. Despite this clever person never once ever even held a Koken product he knows stuff and his feelings are important. Due to his well founded insights Amazon JP is noticing a reduction in tool orders.

 

[CR888]

Good thing Snap-On has got nice finish and stamping down. Maybe they can get around to figuring out how to drill a hole to a consistent depth.

This doesn't really matter if the chrome looks shiny enough and the logo is deep enough. Don't worry about that sort of stuff, how it looks is what counts. Feeling warm & fuzzy inside when you look at the logo & chrome is where its at.

 

[Mr_B]

From my experience (more older koken tools) the chrome is thick like snapon and chips/peels like snapon .
Would like see koken do more ratchet types, extending, extra long, roto head, gearless and higher toothed count too .
everyone should own at least one koken tool If you don't try vast selection of brands doing real work over a decade or 2 you really never going know good or bad .

 

[ChrisLS8]

Yet another **** riding SO fanatic that claims that all ratchets are inferior despite never even holding one.

THe CHrOmE is ShIniER aNd sTAmpInGS arE CrIsP

 

[American Locomotive]

I don't know why they changed the stamping, the only thing make sense to me is: style change. Though there are metal deformations at the edge, the stampings on the head are still pretty deep and uniform.

Okay so you're admitting that the Snap-On stamping has deformed letters, but giving them a pass because they're "deep"?

From you picture, I noticed the following:
The Koken to the right has crude, industrial finish, the "Koken" logo is shallow and weak. Is the backing plate uneven?

The Koken logo is shallow because it's stamped into the steel backing plate. However the stamping is sharp and clearly visible. The backing plate has radiuses ground into the edges - it's not uneven.

Your own photo showing a Snap-On backing plate shows that half the letters (including the Pat Pending) aren't even fully stamped.

The chrome plating looks much thinner than Snap On. Is there a part number stamped somewhere? Based on the workmanship (finishing quality), this Koken is a $30 ratchet.

Uh huh, you can tell the thickness of the chrome plating with your eyes. Give me a break man.

The chrome on the ratchet to the left seems better, but still looks thinner and not as shinny (especially the head). The "MADE IN JAPAN 169" looks uneven, like someone punched on by hand. The white screw breaks harmony, it would have looked better on both side with a heat treated screw. The blacking plate lacks detail. Based on the workmanship, this Koken is a $50 ratchet.

You cannot tell chrome thickness with your eyes. You can't. It's literally not possible, so stop pretending you can. Shinyness of chrome is an aesthetic choice. I've seen the shiniest most polished chrome on the nastiest cheapest ratchets. Chrome plating so thin it chips off the moment you pick the ratchet up.

The screw is not white. Harmony? Seriously? Backing plate lacking detail? Why does a backing plate need to be littered with words? Would you rather have the shallow, not-fully stamped and malformed letters the Snap-On backing plate has?

This is Snap On, notice the recessed area at the screws, and the perfect stamping on the handle.

The Koken backing plate is secured by recessed screws coming through the other side of the ratchet. So I'm not sure why the back plate would need recesses.

Let's examine the rebuild kits of Koken vs Snap On

The Snap On selector may require forging. Koken seems made out stamped metal sheet.
The 2 sealing gasket
heat treated screws for strength
locktite

The Snap-On selector is die-cast aluminum or zinc. The Koken selector is stamped steel. The Koken rebuild kit also comes with a new backing plate. Thread locking is only needed on designs that require it. The Koken ratchets may not have issues with the screws backing out in normal use. I've used more than one F80 where the screws have backed out. Furthermore, a black screw is not "heat treated for strength". It's just a black-oxide coating for rust protection. That Koken screw looks either chrome plated or galvanized instead.

I don't know under what situation "backdrag" is a problem. I use my ratchets for auto maintenance. I always start a bolt with hand (to avoid cross threading), and I always unscrew a bolt with hand for the last few threads (to avoid the bolt/nut dropping into engine bay). Never had to use ratchet at a few inch-oz torque level.

It's handy for bolts that are hard to get to, or are covered in grease. I love how low the backdrag is on my SK LP90 compared to some other ratchets.

I don't know under what condition a low tooth count ratchet (24/36 teeth) can have lower backdrag than a 72 teeth. The back drag is created by the paws. Weaker springs would allow that. Sloppy fit (such as paws not fully engaging) would allow that. In both cases, the ratchet won't have good strength.

High tooth counts require high spring pressure to keep the engagement pawl pressed securely against the rotor. Low tooth counts can get away with very low spring pressure as long as the machining is precise, and the geometry of the pawl causes positive engagement.

Have you noticed that your Koken Zeal the gap on one side is larger than the other at the flex? As I mentioned before, low backdrag may be causes by low tension spring and sloppy fit. From the internals, Koken looks from 80s. Instead of "superior", it's rather on the cheaply made/generic side.

You realize the picture is taken at angle, right? If there were any kind of gap, the ratchet head would be floppy and useless.

 

[Rabid Badger]

Let's examine the rebuild kits of Koken vs Snap On

Okay.

The Snap On selector may require forging.

May require forging? That's a cast part. Look at the grain structure of the metal.

Koken seems made out stamped metal sheet.

Yep. A 3D stamping out of thick sheet like that is going to be nice and strong.

The 2 sealing gasket

Koken's ratchets aren't sealed. I guess they're confident enough in their manufacturing tolerances and the resilience of their design that they aren't worried about a little dirt getting in. Thus, they forgo the o-rings and the extra friction they impart on the mechanism.

heat treated screws for strength

Do you think having an anti-corrosion coating and heat treating are mutually exclusive? That...isn't accurate.

locktite

If your holes are threaded and screws manufactured to proper tolerances (and your tool body sufficiently resistant to flexing) Loctite isn't necessarily required in an application like this.

What looks to have better quality? Is Koken "superior" or "generic"? I'll let others to chip in.

Thanks!

I don't know under what situation "backdrag" is a problem.

Don't worry. You'll figure it out once you get a little experience under your belt.

I don't know under what condition a low tooth count ratchet (24/36 teeth) can have lower backdrag than a 72 teeth.

Koken's design requires minimal spring force to engage the pawl with the gear. In fact, it's the basis for all those low backdrag 72 tooth designs. The difference being the 72 tooth units engage on more teeth, resulting in more friction.

The back drag is created by the paws.

Pawls. That's part of it.

Weaker springs would allow that.

He almost has it, people!

Sloppy fit (such as paws not fully engaging) would allow that. In both cases, the ratchet won't have good strength.

False alarm.

 

[M6erfan]

Seems like the trolls are still hungry...

 

[clinebarger]

Koken has always made top quality sockets and unique products. The socket on the right is a 1" drive 4 point socket for Budd truck wheels. Only Budd socket I have seen with the collar on it. Makes it faster and easier when using 30 lb. impact wrenches. Proto 4 point socket 2nd picture

Koken at one time was rebranded for Westward and was available at local parts/industrial places up here. The quality is equal to the best Proto heavy duty impact sockets made over the years.

Koken is the same as Hazet, among the best in quality but not readily available. Have some larger Hazet torx bit sockets that I like better than Snap-on

Thanks, I've broken hundreds of Snap-on Torx bits.....Mostly T-40 & T-50Plus which is why I have 2 of each.

Isn't this thread about ratchets? While I've had some issues with SO chrome sockets & Torx bits, I have yet to have issues with their ratchets

 

[CrazyTools]

One has to give props to whoever invented the magical marketing tool “warranty.” It has such a hold on some people that they even bring it up in discussions of a bit ratchet.

Of course, Snapon not purchased from a delivery van franchise or their website is Snapon without any warranty. I expect most of the people overpaying for used stuff don’t realize that.

You're complaining about needing a $10 rebuild kit (shipped) which effectively makes any Snap-on dual 80 ratchet brand new? Ko-ken doesn't even offer a lifetime warranty on their tools. This is exactly my point about these kinds of responses in this thread...

Visionguru has stated what I didn't want to state outright in a clever an interesting way. Namely, that there are people on this thread who are purporting Ko-ken to be an equal manufacturer of quality tools to Snap-on who is considered the market leader for 70 years, and is lightyears ahead of mediocre manufacturers. Your claims are false.

I won't respond to the individual troll responses. You haven't actually said anything that's fact. It's just smoke and mirrors, with no substance. The machine work on the Koken ratchets is subpar. They remind me of a cheap $10 Craftsman ratchet.

Again, if your price range dicates Koken --- use it, and shut up about it. It doesn't make it superior because you say so. Your Ford Focus is not a Ferrari and never can be.

 

[M6erfan]

You're complaining about needing a $10 rebuild kit (shipped) which effectively makes any Snap-on dual 80 ratchet brand new? Ko-ken doesn't even offer a lifetime warranty on their tools. This is exactly my point about these kinds of responses in this thread...

Visionguru has stated what I didn't want to state outright in a clever an interesting way. Namely, that there are people on this thread who are purporting Ko-ken to be an equal manufacturer of quality tools to Snap-on who is considered the market leader for 70 years, and is lightyears ahead of mediocre manufacturers. Your claims are false.

I won't respond to the individual troll responses. You haven't actually said anything that's fact. It's just smoke and mirrors, with no substance. The machine work on the Koken ratchets is subpar. They remind me of a cheap $10 Craftsman ratchet.

Again, if your price range dicates Koken --- use it, and shut up about it. It doesn't make it superior because you say so. Your Ford Focus is not a Ferrari and never can be.

Ummm, Ko-ken certainly does offer a lifetime warranty on their tools. CrazyTools = FAIL!

You're sadly misguided if you think Ko-ken build quality is subpar (CrazyTools has never owned any Ko-ken product just for the record...)

And yes, buying any Snap-on product second hand technically negates their warranty. It's a fact. There are threads here lamenting this fact.

A little research would go a long way CrazyTools. Just sayin'

Focus vs Ferrari? Depends on your measure. For example; which one is cheaper to buy? Operate? maintain? Focus FTW!

 

[BarryWells]

Snap hands down makes the best easily available ratchets in the world. PERIOD. Now, not before.
Wright is still neck and neck and blew them way 15 to 40 years back. Hands down.
This junk is pretty good too.For po-boys that have to pay cash

 

[M6erfan]

Snap-on can't even recess their ratchet's direction switch. Holy poor design and quality! I mean, even $30 ratchets can get this right.

 

[mbshop]

There is no way just about anyone can know everything about a tool.so many changes going on.

I know...enough people on here keep talking about these damn things I'm eventually going to have to try one.

I like the story about the Snap-on driver who doesn't even know Zephyr makes their bits. I know they teach you in sales school you are supposed to sell what you have not what the customer wants but wow.

 

[JBH]

You're complaining about needing a $10 rebuild kit (shipped) which effectively makes any Snap-on dual 80 ratchet brand new?

Can you please cite the text where I "complained" about a company making rebuild kits available for sale to consumers? I haven't, obviously, because that would be dumb.

Regardless, as "visionguru" noted above, Koken offers rebuild kits as well. Presumably like Snapon they would expect someone who purchased a used product to purchase the appropriate rebuild kit for their broken tool.

Ko-ken doesn't even offer a lifetime warranty on their tools.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that is true. So what?
Some of us care more about the quality and consistency of what's actually in hand than about some hypothetical future commitment from a company.

Visionguru has stated what I didn't want to state outright in a clever an interesting way.

I agree, "visionguru" wrote at least one thing of genuine interest. Here is that actual text:

Frankly, I don't think Snap On 1/4" ratchets offer much better performance than cheap 72T ones.

Of course, 1/4" drive is the format that requires the highest manufacturing precision and quality because all the parts are smaller. A really great design and make would show its largest advantage at this size. Indeed, with Koken I've found that to be true. In 1/4" drive their product feels better in my hands than everything else. In 3/8" drive, others such as Gedore closely approach Koken's feel while offering higher tooth count. (I don't have a 1/2" drive Koken to compare, but I expect that trend continues.)

Namely, that there are people on this thread who are purporting Ko-ken to be an equal manufacturer of quality tools to Snap-on who is considered the market leader for 70 years, and is lightyears ahead of mediocre manufacturers. Your claims are false.

That reads like bloviation to cover up a conflict of interest. Are you in fact a white delivery van driver? And as an aside, isn't it interesting that "white van [product]" is a universal shorthand for shoddily made or shadily sourced product?

Again, if your price range dicates Koken --- use it, and shut up about it.

View media item 94068View media item 91204View media item 91211
If your price range dictates that Snapon is all you can afford, buy it, shut up, and be happy about it. You'll get a tool that will probably mostly work, even if it's ugly and a bit graceless in use. However, if you have the means and the interest to explore what's out there, then there is no downside to trying out different things with one's own hands and getting direct experience. While people will reach different opinions, mine from actual ownership and use is that, even with Nepros, Stahlwille, etc. just inches away I usually want to reach for Koken.

Snap-on can't even recess their ratchet's direction switch. Holy poor design and quality! I mean, even $30 ratchets can get this right.

While I expect you're being sarcastic here, I think that's exactly right.

 

[clinebarger]

Snap-on can't even recess their ratchet's direction switch. Holy poor design and quality! I mean, even $30 ratchets can get this right.

The older design Snap-on ratchets had recessed direction switches. Never made a difference in my experience/opinion. The old style had a tendency to "Auto Reverse" when a lot of torque was applied. The Dual 80 style ratchets have replaced all my late 70's early 80's SO ratchets.

This may be a design issue in your opinion.....But how are you quantifying this as a quality issue?

 

[CrazyTools]

If your price range dictates that Snapon is all you can afford, buy it, shut up, and be happy about it. You'll get a tool that will probably mostly work, even if it's ugly and a bit graceless in use. However, if you have the means and the interest to explore what's out there, then there is no downside to trying out different things with one's own hands and getting direct experience. While people will reach different opinions, mine from actual ownership and use is that, even with Nepros, Stahlwille, etc. just inches away I usually want to reach for Koken.

I've read the numerous posts on this thread, the large multi-quote responses, where you never actually show any real evidence that Koken is anything other than another Husky, Kobalt, or Harbor Freight type tool. No one has to defend Snap-on. Everyone knows that Snap-on produces the highest tier tool available in almost every category. Everyone knows from the countless product tests, from Snap-on's own statements, and from staggering tool usage that in addition to being cosmetically attractive, and well designed... they are also immensely strong, durable, and superior.

I've requested you show videos similar to one's on YouTube about Snap-on showing just how strong and well made Koken is. Snap-on 1/4" drive ratchets are rated to 100 ft/lbs before they sheer the anvil (by design), and Snap-on ratcheting wrenches can exceed 400ft/lbs... and keep going. Where is the proof that Koken is anything other than mediocre? ZERO.

Your posts continuously regurgitate the same nonsense over and over. Your opinions are meaningless, and without validation unless you can back them up with more than a "NUH UH" response child like response.

 

[JBH]

[a lot, to say not much]

This is my second request to disclose your interest: are you a Snapon white van franchisee or otherwise associated with the company?

You write like someone who is afraid your house of cards is crashing down.

 

[M6erfan]

This is my second request to disclose your interest: are you a Snapon white van franchisee or otherwise associated with the company?

You write like someone who is afraid your house of cards is crashing down.

^^^Trolls don't respond to questions like that.


One motivation might be that CrazyTools is trying to unload a bunch of S-o in the classifieds.

 

[CrazyTools]

This is my second request to disclose your interest: are you a Snapon white van franchisee or otherwise associated with the company?

You write like someone who is afraid your house of cards is crashing down.

No, I have nothing to do with Snap-on. I just buy decent tools. I bet half the people on this thread promoting Koken are company shills though. Doubt they'll disclose their relationship... like you.

Now...pony up the proof that Koken has any quality whatsoever, or admit that you simply have ZERO.

 

[impactims]

Of course, Snapon not purchased from a delivery van franchise or their website is Snapon without any warranty. I expect most of the people overpaying for used stuff don’t realize that.

I buy snap on stuff on ebay then trade it in for a new one under warranty all the time. I think you know not of what you speak. If what you were saying is true, I would not get away with this. Sometimes I do this via a franchise, other times via snap on directly....ie they mail me a replacement and I keep the old one.

 

[apdxyk]

Nothing sparks passions on the level of Snap-On and AMSOIL ever. A pro buddy of mine just had his loyalty to SO trashed recently. Switched a garage, and the new place for some reasons 'has an issue or two with an *** SO van man'. He has to go to another garage where an old friend warranties his tools for him. It's like going to HF or Sears for a warranty. Too many variables with those pyramids no matter how good the goods are.

 

[impactims]

Buying Ko-ken tools on ebay = Fail #1

Assuming that Ko-Ken resale is zero = Fail #2

Comparing used S-o to new Ko-ken prices = Fail #3


-

Nothing "fail" about any of this. Buying koken on ebay is fine, the resale IS nill and new to used price comparisons when it comes to tools with lifetime warranties is totally practical.

 

[M6erfan]

Nothing "fail" about any of this. Buying koken on ebay is fine, the resale IS nill and new to used price comparisons when it comes to tools with lifetime warranties is totally practical.

Have you actually read the S-o warranty?

 

[impactims]

Have you actually read the S-o warranty?

Yes.

Why do you ask?

I already said I have USED the s-o warranty on numerous occasions and if I am using the warranty this much, does it really matter if I have read it or not?

 

[impactims]

Snap-on can't even recess their ratchet's direction switch. Holy poor design and quality! I mean, even $30 ratchets can get this right.

Can't recess the switch? What do you mean by this? Are you really saying that their machinery and equipment is incapable of such a design? I doubt that is what you are saying, but I have to ask.

And why is this a poor design? Many seem to think it is better this way. And what does this have to do with quality level?

Why do you say that "even" $30 ratchets get it RIGHT? What is so "right" about the recessed switch? What does price have to do with this particular feature?

 

[Mr_John]

These are my 1/4" Snap-On's.

FWIW, just wanted to say, that 1/4 SO, chrome-handled TechAngle is a gorgeous torque ratchet... and at a $620 retail, it should be.

 

[JBH]

I bet half the people on this thread promoting Koken are company shills though. Doubt they'll disclose their relationship... like you.

For the record, I have no relationship or financial entanglement with Koken or any tool company. I'm not even selling any personal Koken tools, and have no plans to do so: they're keepers.

I discovered Koken by reading posts from Superautobacs and others here. I had never heard of them previously. Frankly, most of the tools I've bought based on GJ hype have been inferior (e.g. Snapon needlenoses) or undistinguished at best and wildly overpriced (e.g. Snapon 1/4" Dual-really-72 ratchet). Koken is the exception. Maybe they're not for everybody, but I like using 'em and that's all that ultimately matters to me.

Now...pony up the proof that Koken has any quality whatsoever, or admit that you simply have ZERO.

Do you have actual evidence to support your smears? I've yet to read a complaint about a Koken ratchet that broke in use.

Truthfully, I have no doubt that any of the 1/4" drive ratchets I showed above, even the Snapon, are sufficiently strong to do anything I'll ever need them to do. So the choice comes down to how each feels in the hand and issues such as clearance or leverage required.

However, there is objective evidence that Snapon quality superiority is at best overhyped. A German magazine did a lab test of 13mm wrenches. Here are some scans:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2713213&postcount=13

I expect you're too provincial to be able to read the test, so I'll leave you with this highlight: two Snapons were tested, regular and FD. Both had thicker open ends than a 1 EUR wrench from India (FD was even thicker than regular), yet standard Snapon's open end was inferior to the Indian wrench's! FD Snapon's open end was merely equal to the 1 EUR Indian throwaway. So much for that mighty American steel and magical mystery treatments!

I buy snap on stuff on ebay then trade it in for a new one under warranty all the time. I think you know not of what you speak. If what you were saying is true, I would not get away with this.

Good thing you don't post under your real name as that might raise some flags next time.

For the record, here's my source:

https://www.snapon.com/Terms-and-Conditions-of-Sale

Specifically:
"2. Personal Use Warranties for Products...This warranty only extends to the original Customer and cannot be transferred or assigned..."

"3. Warranty – Professional Use for Products...This warranty only extends to the original Customer and cannot be transferred or assigned."

Perhaps they do not consistently enforce their written policy. That is neither here nor there, and could change at any time with one short corporate memo. Their actual warranty is as I stated.

 

[Mr_John]

I wanted to chime in on this Koken, or should I say Ko-ken (which is a bit like Snap-on) is interesting, but I think some people are taking love for ratchets to the extreme and attacking needlessly.

Just wanted to add my two cents on the Koken ratchet (and all other ratchets, esp SO ratchets) debate. I read the Koken bio, and looked at their sales manual. I think it's a bit crazy to say these things aren't finished nicely and look like cheap ratchets... cheap ratchets, as we all know, generally aren't made in Japan. Also, that knurling requires additional manufacturing time, BUT, I took a close look (on eBay) at a blown up pic of the knurling, and noticed it did NOT have that very fine machined look to it. It had more of a cast look. I also noticed this ratchet, even though 3/8, only had a 24 tooth mech in it. The seller is based in Japan and has it listed for only $48, but, that IS expensive for a "normal" Chinese/Taiwanese ratchet (outside of Gear Wrench, maybe)... but only 24 teeth?

So, every other manufacturer selling high end wrenches in the 70 to 80 tooth count range (and in some cases, 120) are wrong? Less teeth are better? Even the lust-worth KTC Nepros wrenches with their 90 teeth mechs got it wrong???

I was definitely interested in the Made in Japan Koken ratchets at their reasonable price point, but, honestly, I'm really not sold that the low teeth count (and increased engagement radius, as well) makes sense... I'm also not crazy about that knurling in the handle, which for those who make a living wrenching, might be an issue.

I will say, however, that some of those Koken sockets designs - like the ball gripper ones, that have a ball detent on the nut side, are quite nice. Again, though, I'm not sold on the ratchet being a "premium" offering. I, personally, own a set of Snapon S80s and love them... they're expensive, but the look, feel, and performance are all top notch. That said, one of my favorite wrenches (and the one I depend on to remove highly torqued VW triple square brake carrier bolts) is the Matco extended handle 3/8 locking flex head 88 tooth mech ratchet. I was lucky enough to snag a brand new one on eBay off of somebody that was either a dealer or robbed a Matco truck and was selling about 5 of them... I think I paid about $80, shipped.

 

[Dumber than lumber]

I went another way, GearWrench bit set for ratcheting wrenches. 81602.

That is slick. Deserves a thread of its own!!

 

[measuredtwice]

Also, that knurling requires additional manufacturing time, BUT, I took a close look (on eBay) at a blown up pic of the knurling, and noticed it did NOT have that very fine machined look to it. It had more of a cast look.

The link has some nice photos but they are small-->

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415933&showall=1

I can't tell from the photos. I wouldn't be surprised if it was cast but I can't tell.

I should get mine late this week and can take close up photos of the knurl. Or maybe one of you guys can take some close up photos first.

I'm sure cutting knurling or casting knurling or forging knurling adds some cost but how much depends. Rogue Fitness can cut knurling even on their cheapest powerlifting barbells. And I've yet to see knurling on ratchets that compares to that. That might be a good thing since it would tear up your hands.

The seller is based in Japan and has it listed for only $48,

Last week I paid 26USD plus 10USD shipping from Amazon. That order contained other non-Ko-ken items as well. And I should get it this week shipped from Japan. Seems like a good deal to me even if it's 3/4ths as good as everyone says.

I'm really not sold that the low teeth count (and increased engagement radius, as well) makes sense

I had the same curiosity and bought one to find out. Likewise I bought the Vessel and PB Swiss stuff to see what all the hype was about.

 

[Samuel D]

Did you buy a 24-tooth model, measuredtwice? I can see from catalogue photos of the mechanism that that design would produce low back-drag, given a few givens. The interior of the 36-tooth model is less obviously convincing.

Clearly having that few teeth will reduce working speed and convenience in situations where there isn’t space to swing the handle through a decent arc. But that must be traded off against better speed and convenience when working with free-spinning fasteners and enough space to swing the ratchet, if the lower back-drag applies.

Some of my Facom round-head ratchets have pretty darned low back-drag (and 72 teeth). Struggling to see how Koken would beat that, but I haven’t tried a Koken ratchet personally.

 

[measuredtwice]

Yes, I bought the 3753N with 24 teeth.

Here are some catalog pages. Unfortunately the page showing the forging and turning only shows the sockets, not the manufacturing of the ratchets.