Buried Fuel Tank Advice

[Ralf11]

Michigan has fairly stringent environmental safeguards.

Before taking any of the DIY advice above, it would be very very smart to find out what you do legally.

Home heating oil is not nearly as bad as some other things found in buried tanks at businesses...

Best case - it is dry. I'd check to see if that is the case first.

 

[Don1357]

Exactly. However, that may not be an option if it spilled its contents.

Agree. But it seems like the OP is leaning towards the pull as the default option, when the decommissioning in place, if available, should be the better course of action.

Heck you could have it pressure tested, declared not leaking, only to find the leak once you pull it out. At that point you are on the hook for disposing of as many cubic yards of hazardous waste (not cheap) as is deemed necessary. Because at that point, you know.

 

[Los_Control]

My 2 cents ... Do not mention it to any city, county or state official.
I would feel confident the tank is not used for many years, any environmental damage has long passed.
The concern is as the tank returns to dust, you have a potential safety hazard if the ground gave away while walking or driving over it.
I would want to fill it with gravel for safety. And move on with your life.

My reasoning is from experience with a old septic system built by my wife's Grandfather.
This was WA state and very strict environmental rules.
While it was a very poor design, surprising it worked for 50+ years. For 2 old people.
It consisted of 2 old 55 gallon steel drums, and galvanized sewer pipes.
Once county got involved .... It had to be treated as a Hazardous waste site.
The old soil needed to be removed and hauled to a designated disposal site, new fresh soil hauled in to replace it ... several inspections and hoops to jump through, would cost over $5k-$6k just to get rid of 2 55 gallon drums.

I know I will get grief from others for my opinion. For Christ sake we are talking about poop in my case .... Humans and Animals have been pooping since the beginning of time.
I would hate to think what they would do to the op over a old abandoned fuel tank.

 

[Randy in Maine]

Lots of bad advice given in this thread.

Do this, just call the Michigan DEP and speak to someone that deals with these abandoned USTs everyday. Tell them the story, and ask what to do about it. They may even be some grant money available to help you do it correctly.

 

[pizza]

update:

i took a scrap piece of garden hose and dipped it in there. there's fuel in the tank.
i don't know if there is also water or not. presumably there has to be at least some because the fill cap has been open basically forever.

damn it. if i were alive back then, i would've pumped this stupid thing out as soon as i switched to another fuel source.
wtf is wrong with people? lol

who knows if it's leaking or not, but i need to pump this thing out somehow. and also examine my options for the next step.

i would love to do it the right way, but being on the hook for up to hundreds of thousands of dollars is not acceptable to me at this time. that would pretty much ruin my life. i need to talk to an expert or a lawyer or someone like that for advice without getting it reported. hopefully there are understanding govt programs or grants in place like Randy in Maine suggested.

the ideal solution for me would be to pay a pro to take care of it and give him a reasonable budget (~10k), and if/when the project exceeds that budget due to extensive contamination issues, call it quits and not report me. i don't think that's how this works though.

 

[Don1357]

update:

i took a scrap piece of garden hose and dipped it in there. there's fuel in the tank.
i don't know if there is also water or not. presumably there has to be at least some because the fill cap has been open basically forever.

damn it. if i were alive back then, i would've pumped this stupid thing out as soon as i switched to another fuel source.
wtf is wrong with people? lol

who knows if it's leaking or not, but i need to pump this thing out somehow. and also examine my options for the next step.

i would love to do it the right way, but being on the hook for up to hundreds of thousands of dollars is not acceptable to me at this time. that would pretty much ruin my life. i need to talk to an expert or a lawyer or someone like that for advice without getting it reported. hopefully there are understanding govt programs or grants in place like Randy in Maine suggested.

No matter what it needs to be emptied so start with that. $12 drill pump, get some 5 gallon containers and hope that there isn't that much. On my borough we have an oil disposal site where it is kosher to dump that stuff. See if there is a collection site around you that will take it. Looking at the landfill fees.

About a year after I bought my old house in Maryland the buried oil tank started to get water. The oi company said that most likely it was from the top where the pipe goes into the body of the tank. I asked how much it would be to pull it out and I was told what I told you; "you don't wanna do that". The second you know that there is a leak you are liable and responsible. He looked me in the eye and said "I'm very confident the water is getting in through the top. We can put an above ground tank, empty your oil into it, fill the old tank with sand, and remove the pipes". The new tank was at cost, labor was reasonable.

But you are in Michigan, with different rules and you may be more or less risk adverse than I am. Removing the tank would be $2k~$3k; it gets emptied, cleaned (solvents pumped in and drained out), the tank dug up, and hauled away. If a spillage is found underneath that's when it gets expensive; as every bit of dirt with oil on it needs to be hauled away as hazmat material with hazmat disposal fees attached to it...

 

[Ralf11]

https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-89334_42271_4115_4238-9379--,00.html

 

[theoldwizard1]

if there's oil in it, do you have any advice? just call a pro and prepare to be raped? will the EPA have to get involved? lol

A pro would be EPA certified. They will (or at least they should) vacuum it out and the dig it up. Make sure you get a certificate because it will likely be required to sell the place.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Absolutely do not knock the pipes off and forget about it. The empty tank WILL work its way back up to the surface.

AND you a liable for any clean up required long after the property is sold. !

 

[yeldogt]

Obviously -- it's less than ideal to have the tank open to the elements. The key here is "do no harm" You don't want to be pumping this yourself .... spill or drip any oil and now no one can tell if it's the tank or you. It takes very little spilled oil to confuse the situation.

Are you sure the house is only from the 70's -- that heater looks older. Did your grandfather burn wood ..that's a wood furnace?

Every state handles this in a different manner -- NJ is fanatical and you never want one and if you have one you want it out .. not just abandoned. PA/NY/CT not as bad ...MA is always fighting NJ to be the most difficult. ME is reasonable.


Typically -- The tank is pumped out -- cleaned and then either removed or abandoned. In many states a qualified excavator can do the work. I always have them removed -- when sale time comes around I don't want anyone worrying about a tank. Even with documentation of proper abandonment -- most people don't want them and it's getting more restrictive vs less. On the east coast people are now removing previously abandoned tanks.

With an oil/water mix the contents are typically not worth anything so you pay the full $3/4 gallon to pump it out ... it's easier to just pay someone to do the whole job.

Tanks leak for a variety of reasons -- I bought a house with 35 year old tanks and when they were removed about 6 years later they were still in great shape. Like a lot of things there were very thick tanks back in the day ... Mine were 330 and 550.

The problem you have is the basic testing will not work. In my case they tested for water -- to see if any ground water was in the tank and if the tank may have had water in the fuel. None was found so the big worry was gone. You have an open tank .. with an unknown fuel amount.

It's always assumed the soil around the top of the tank will be compromised --- this is taken away. Smelling oil is a bad sign -- this is why you don't want to do it yourself without any knowledge and proper equipment. Also -- one can normally smell a well that's been contaminated.

This is one of those things that done correctly it's over with .. no one like to spend money. But, do it wrong or not properly contain a problem and it becomes a huge mess.

The reason the tank is cleaned after pumping is to removed any possibility of fuel leaking when the tank is removed. Any spilling is a leak.

It's also dangerous to test a tank past testing for water -- the tests are either pressure or vacuum and each hold the possibility of damage to the tank ... you can made tank near failure leak. Same with tank probes -- where you send a probe to directly smell or the type that take a soil sample. Both can now create a pathway for a compromised tank to leak -- it's not unusual for an old tank to be rusted and oozing ... the soil being clay and not leaking. Pump -- clean tank and remove -- the remove the soil around the compromised wall. Many times tanks are leaking this way ... a heavy leaking tank is empty in dry/ above water table soil

You only get one shot to do it correctly.

 

[mike93lx]

Lots of bad advice given in this thread.

Do this, just call the Michigan DEP and speak to someone that deals with these abandoned USTs everyday. Tell them the story, and ask what to do about it. They may even be some grant money available to help you do it correctly.

Calling the state before a lawyer is insane.

 

[Ralf11]

he doesn't have to call, just click the link I posted above

 

[Randy in Maine]

Calling the state before a lawyer is insane.

Only in MA.

 

[pvanderlugt]

Are you sure there is any more oil in there then just a film on top? Dipping a hose into the tank filled with water with just a thin film of oil floating on top, will leave the hose coated in oil..as you pull it back out... make sure you know what you got......I would drop a ridged pipe down to the bottom and start pumping ...... should be water for quite a while if that cap has been off a long time...when you start getting oil, measure and see what the level is.... even a “pumped dry” tank would still have some oil in it, that be floating on the water that dripped in afterwards... no sense in getting excited to soon.... if you feel the need to pull the empty tank out VS filling with gravel, dig it up, cut it into small pieces and haul to recycling/landfill.... no reason this needs to cost lots of $$ if this is an intact tank with a little water/oil mixture in it....

 

[nadogail]

After reading this thread I better appreciate the above ground fuel oil storage in the houses of my youth in Alaska.

I no longer live there, and I heat with natural gas.

 

[yeldogt]

After reading this thread I better appreciate the above ground fuel oil storage in the houses of my youth in Alaska.

I no longer live there, and I heat with natural gas.

in ground allowed running no2 without any gumming or too many additives -- in cold climates above tank need more of a Kero blend/ additives.

 

[Lassen Forge]

I've had to decommission numerous UST's and none of them are fun... you need to do soil samples to see what (if anything) leaked, then you can determine if you call out the excavator and unearth and pull that bad boy or get a permit to fill it with concrete / grout and let it lie... Regardless (and you won't like this) now that you know what you have, you have to deal with it.

In almost every case I've dealt with we decided to excavate, pull, backfill the hole, and scrap the steel. Then you can guarantee that whatever was there is there no longer, meaning you never have that little "thing" you'll have to disclose, no matter what. IF there's contaminated soil that can be remediated. If not, your costs are (literally) cheap as dirt. If so, it's still not bad. But leaving it there means you own that thing until kingdom come thanks to the hazmat laws. EVEN FILLED, there will always be that question if someone way back in 2021 remediated it or hid it... or blew it off. And that can come back to haunt you unless you keep those records forever, because that's what you have to do.

Serious. I did this for a living for almost a decade. Get that thing out, and be glad it's gone.

 

[dogdog]

thanks for your input, everyone. it is a small comfort.

we don't have plans to sell the property.

assuming i got the tank out, how might i dispose of the tank?

you can cut the tank with saw-zall and a good blade... I have seen a friend of a friend's friend done it on a 1/8" thick 300 gallon tank... but it was above ground... tank. Go slow , spray water so it won't spark.. Regular blade not the carbide ones.

Ebay/amazon also have those cheesy USB cameras that have led lights and 720P but it has a 30 foot lead... as long as those pipe don't have bends, you should be able to drop it down and see whats inside. ?

 

[Shop Specialties]

Is the line still going in the house with a shut off valve ? If so a put a bucket under it and open the valve to see what comes out.
I would rent a mini excavator which should only cost around $200-$400 for a day and dig it up and be done with it. Check with the metal recycler to see if they take the tank whole.

 

[rlitman]

...EVEN FILLED, there will always be that question if someone way back in 2021 remediated it or hid it... or blew it off. And that can come back to haunt you unless you keep those records forever, because that's what you have to do...

In my county, almost 40 years ago they started a program where you could register an UST and provide proof that it was not leaking at the time of abandonment (i.e. it was just removed from service), have it pumped out, and after filling it, be provided with a certificate of abatement where the county takes on any future liabilities from it. It was a fantastic way to encourage people to take care of these time-bombs before they start leaking, rather than just bury the evidence.

Of course, I don't believe that helps the OP in any way.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Another option for evacuating the tank that I don't think has yet been mentioned, pressurize it with a compressor ****** where the vent was removed and a reasonably air tight dip tube to the bottom with a valve then hose on the top. No pump needed.

 

[walrus]

Another option for evacuating the tank that I don't think has yet been mentioned, pressurize it with a compressor ****** where the vent was removed and a reasonably air tight dip tube to the bottom with a valve then hose on the top. No pump needed.

Yeah, cause those tanks are made to be pressurized.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

They are not, but 10-15psi in a tank surrounded by compacted earth is in no danger of rupturing.

 

[walrus]

In Maine there is a clean water fund that will clean up the site depending on many things. Is the tank registered with State. Is compliant with todays regs. How many USTs does the land owner own. etc.

Their is a deductible. 5 grand I think.

It isn't going away thats for sure. Talk to a company that installs tanks, they should have a clue about removing them. At that point you will have to call the state and report the tank. Get it removed, soil testing and I assume the fact the place had an underground tank will be logged on the deed forever more.

 

[walrus]

They are not, but 10-15psi in a tank surrounded by compacted earth is in no danger of rupturing.

Sure it is, you have a tank of unknown age with product in it. Pressurize and blow the product out of hole you can't see, good idea. BTW air tests on a new tank should never exceed 3 to 5psi and most tanks are vacuum tested now.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Sure it is, you have a tank of unknown age with product in it. Pressurize and blow the product out of hole you can't see, good idea. BTW air tests on a new tank should never exceed 3 to 5psi and most tanks are vacuum tested now.

Semantics. You've confirmed this hole? You've determined the weight of the earth on and around the tank preventing rupture? Vacuum testing an underground tank? Despite your efforts, I still think you're reasonably intelligent and can grasp the concept of what I'm suggesting can be done safely and without having to buy a pump.

 

[LS1-IROC]

I'm in Michigan and had a tank removed when I sold my last home 3 years ago. It was no big deal, cost me $1800 by a licensed tank removal company. They only test the ground under the tank if there is any visible signs of leaks when the tank comes out of the ground. The tank was 60 years old and no leaks.

 

[walrus]

Semantics. You've confirmed this hole? You've determined the weight of the earth on and around the tank preventing rupture? Vacuum testing an underground tank? Despite your efforts, I still think you're reasonably intelligent and can grasp the concept of what I'm suggesting can be done safely and without having to buy a pump.

I've done petroleum work for 40 years and your method isn't a good idea.

 

[pizza]

thanks again for the advice, everyone.
many useful/interesting responses.

i think i'll grab a cap for the fill pipe from the hardware store tonight. doesn't really help my situation at all, but it's a small bandaid that will make me feel a little better. lol

i should have my well water tested for organic solvent residues. but maybe via an independent lab instead of the county lab so i can keep it a little more confidential. (and as a reminder, no one has been drinking the water anyways due to unrelated issues with the well cap)

Are you sure there is any more oil in there then just a film on top? Dipping a hose into the tank filled with water with just a thin film of oil floating on top, will leave the hose coated in oil..as you pull it back out... make sure you know what you got......I would drop a ridged pipe down to the bottom and start pumping ......

you're right, i should try to find out how much water vs oil is in there.

but because i have a vague memory from when i was a kid of someone (i don't even remember who!) telling me about this tank and implying it had fuel and was therefore "valuable", i'm assuming there's a substantial amount of oil in it.

i know there's oil in it now (dipped a piece of garden hose into it and pulled it out), and there's also probably an unknown quantity of water from the uncapped fill pipe.

interestingly, before i dipped the hose into the fill pipe, the fill pipe had no odor. (it smells like fuel now because the hose dribbled some on the pipe's inside wall on its way up and out)

You don't want to be pumping this yourself .... spill or drip any oil and now no one can tell if it's the tank or you. It takes very little spilled oil to confuse the situation.

interesting point. i definitely don't want to cause a false positive test result by superficially contaminating the soil through my efforts. if i decide to try it myself, i'll be careful and also put some tarps down.

i wish i knew how big the tank was and how much fuel is in there. idk if i'm the man for the job if there's hundreds of gallons of oil in there.

maybe i could buy some 55 gallon drums and fill those, but what if it takes like 10 drums to do the job? yeesh

Are you sure the house is only from the 70's -- that heater looks older. Did your grandfather burn wood ..that's a wood furnace?

yes, the house is from the early 70s. my grandma was the second owner and purchased it in the mid 80s.

to my knowledge, she never used that furnace. or that oil tank.

it's totally possible that that furnace has nothing to do with the fuel tank.

anyway, i'm assuming the tank is original to the house, so it could be 45-50 years old.

https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-89334_42271_4115_4238-9379--,00.html

great link, ty

Is the line still going in the house with a shut off valve ? If so a put a bucket under it and open the valve to see what comes out.

no, i'm not seeing anything like that in the basement.

Another option for evacuating the tank that I don't think has yet been mentioned, pressurize it with a compressor ****** where the vent was removed and a reasonably air tight dip tube to the bottom with a valve then hose on the top. No pump needed.

interesting idea. i could see that working pretty well, but i'm too much of a wuss to try it.

I have done permitting, plans review, and site inspections for installation of UST's in the State of Florida, and I have a S.A.R.A. certificate

...

good info, ty

 

[rlitman]

Are you sure there is any more oil in there then just a film on top? Dipping a hose into the tank filled with water with just a thin film of oil floating on top, will leave the hose coated in oil..as you pull it back out... make sure you know what you got......I would drop a ridged pipe down to the bottom and start pumping ...

Here's a better idea.

First, buy a tube of water finding paste:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00207LS5M/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Now get a stick long enough to reach the bottom. This could be the tape measure I suggested earlier, though a better option would be a 10' stick of cheap material purchased in the HD molding aisle. Anything straight will do (so no hose). Heck, a piece of plastic sheetrock corner bead might be the cheapest option that comes in 10' lengths. Or a stick of 1/2" PVC pipe perhaps.

Anyway, smear a line of the water finding paste up the stick, and dip the stick. The paste will tell you exactly the water level, and the stick will tell you the oil level.

If for some reason you find a significant amount of oil, you have hit the jackpot, because that is sufficient proof that the tank is not leaking. At that point, just find someone on CL willing to pump out the oil for their own purposes and toss them a bonus.

 

[pizza]

First, buy a tube of water finding paste:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00207LS5M/?tag=atomicindus08-20

...

smear a line of the water finding paste up the stick, and dip the stick. The paste will tell you exactly the water level, and the stick will tell you the oil level.

great idea, thanks!

i'm guessing it will still react with water somehow even if it's been slicked with fuel first on its way down into the liquid?

if you've used it before, do you have any usage suggestions?

i wonder how long i should wait with the stick submerged before pulling it out.

 

[rlitman]

great idea, thanks!

i'm guessing it will still react with water somehow even if it's been slicked with fuel first on its way down into the liquid?

if you've used it before, do you have any usage suggestions?

i wonder how long i should wait with the stick submerged before pulling it out.

Yes, the paste will change color when it finds water, even underneath a fuel layer. It is specifically designed to show the water level at the bottom of fuel tanks in the way I just described. Just wear gloves when you smear it on the stick, because your finger's sweat can make it turn color.

You only need to smear on enough to show the color clearly. It's similar in consistency to toothpaste. I use a "bacon bomb" fuel sampler at work to analyze the fuel at the bottom of some tanks, and I'll smear some paste on it's lowest point to confirm that no water is at the bottom.

As for time, it reacts almost instantly. Spit on it after you pull the stick and watch it change. You don't need to wait at all. Treat it like an engine dipstick.

 

[pizza]

sweet, thanks.

i see they have a couple of formulations.

the one you linked to:
https://www.fedprobrands.com/regular-water-finding-paste.html

and an 'all purpose' one:
https://www.fedprobrands.com/all-purpose-water-finding-paste.html

based on what i've learned from this thread, i'm just guessing there's #2 oil in my tank.

the all purpose specifically mentions #2 oil, but seems like either product will work. the all purpose version works on more polar solvents like EtOH, but i wonder which is best for my application? maybe the color change is more dramatic on one or the other

edit: i just ordered a tube of the regular one. i think the color change looks more striking.

 

[rlitman]

I use the all purpose at work. Either is just fine for your purposes. The mustard/yellow change has a lot of contrast, but so does the brown/fluorescent-green.

edit:
I specifically linked the cheaper one, because it would be just fine and was half the price. So far, I haven't found a reason why I would be better off with the all purpose either. I don't work at a gas station with ethanol in the tanks.

Side note. I once used this stuff for a really odd use case. One day, in my office we lifted a ceiling tile and found a liquid on the grid. A dab of paste on a paper towel allowed me to quickly show that it was not water, so it could not have been an ordinary roof leak. It turned out to be oil from an air conditioner leak, that followed a line down through a pitch pocket.

 

[pizza]

update:

got my water paste in the mail.

i took a stick, marked 1 ft graduations on it using a piece of charcoal, and smeared the paste on it.

here's what i found:

distance from top of fill pipe to bottom of tank: 6 ft
(top of fill pipe is just above ground level)

total liquid depth: 2 ft

water present: at most ~1-2 in, but the result was inconclusive to my inexperienced eye.

here's the bottom of the stick (i smeared paste on the bottom surface of the stick too):

there's bits of color change, but it's incomplete. i'm wondering if there's moist sludge at the bottom? or maybe little droplets of water? what do you guys think?

for comparison, here's where i spat on the stick after pulling it out. i spat on a fuel-slicked portion for consistency's sake:

i dipped it for 10 s because that's what the directions on the tube said to do, and when i spat on it afterwards, it changed color pretty much instantly.

---------------------------------

ok, so now that i know i have about 2 ft of fuel and little-to-no water, does this tell me anything useful?

could that mean it's likely that the tank never leaked?

is it weird that there's so little water in there considering the fill cap has been off for years or even decades?

 

[Super Mech]

That is kinda strange. With the fill cap being off for so long and it being close to ground level I would think that there would have been more water in there. In any case, get the tank pumped and move on from there. Any waste oil guy should take it.

 

[mike93lx]

That is kinda strange. With the fill cap being off for so long and it being close to ground level I would think that there would have been more water in there. In any case, get the tank pumped and move on from there. Any waste oil guy should take it.

It is a really small opening for rain to hit. If there isn't water running over or pooling at at the pipe, there is no reason why a ton of water would get in the tank

 

[BD1]

This is a interesting article I found.

https://www.mlive.com/home_improvement/2007/09/how_to_take_care_of_an_old_und.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rlitman]

It is a really small opening for rain to hit. If there isn't water running over or pooling at at the pipe, there is no reason why a ton of water would get in the tank

Any who knows how long that cap has been off.

I agree that it appears that it is a couple of inches of wet sludge at the bottom. This looks to me like a best case scenario, as it clearly is not leaking.

 

[yeldogt]

I'm not sure why people keep fixating on what's in the tank?

Whatever is in the tank has to be pumped -- it's that simple. You pump the tank -- clean the tank ... remove the tank. The cleaning is just to remove any remaining liquid that may come out if the tank is damaged. Tanks can be also be damaged as they come out of the ground -- stuff happens.

The OP is looking at 80 gallons of oil/water mix ... not something to play with.

I'm all for doing things myself --- not buried tanks. Why take an easy couple k job and turn it into a potential nightmare.