Buried Fuel Tank Advice

[pizza]

inspired by this recent thread, an old memory came back to me: i might have a buried fuel tank of some sort!

my grandmother recently died, and i'm visiting her old place in MI that my mom just inherited.

when i was a little kid, i saw this pipe in the back yard, and i asked someone what it was. i vaguely remember being told it was a tank. at that time, i didn't know the difference between propane, kerosene, mazut, diesel, and other kinds of fuels. i just remember wondering why there was now an above-ground propane tank, and the one in the ground was abandoned.

unfortunately, everyone i would like to ask again is either dead or has no memory of a tank being there. my mother is dubious about the possibility. the house was built in the early 1970s, and if there is a tank, it could be original for all i know. i was born in the late 1980s.

now for some pics. i don't know if these puzzle pieces go together or not, but i present them just in case.

first, the pipe sticking out of the ground that might go to a tank:

i looked around for a matching vent pipe (i understand this is common for an uncompressed liquid fuel tank), but i don't see one.

here's an old furnace of some kind in the basement. i've never seen it used. what did this thing used to burn? wood? coal? trash (lol)? maybe, but could it have also burned a liquid fuel?

front:

back:

top:

side:

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some questions for you guys...

does it look like i could have a buried tank there?
what could it have held?

it's probably not pressurized, right?

is there any danger in unscrewing the cap on that pipe and dipping a long stick or tape down there to try to determine if there's still fuel inside?

i care about the land a lot, and i have a water well on the other side of the house. i don't want to do something that could lead to contamination.

i'm more than happy to call a pro, but is there a "smart" way to go about this so i don't end up in EPA hell? what if it's already leaking? lol

thanks!

 

[rlitman]

That stove doesn't have a vent connection. You sure it wasn't just put there for storage? Anyway, it is not an oil stove.

That cap looks like the vent on an underground oil tank. You could put a stick in it. Expect to need something LONG. At least 10' or even more perhaps to reach the bottom. You could use a tape measure, and have a rag handy to clean it as you slowly retract it.

 

[captaindiode]

That is a vent for an underground fuel oil tank. There should be a fill pipe too.

 

[pizza]

i just looked more carefully, and i found a second pipe next to it. i'm guessing this is a vent pipe, so it's probably some kind of fuel oil (uncompressed liquid fuel) tank?

as for that capped pipe, it's 1.25". the cap looks pretty old fashioned. says OEM NEW HAVEN 1 1/4".

 

[rlitman]

Yes. Probably #2 heating oil. Sure hope it hasn't leaked, but it is unlikely that a buried tank of that vintage is still intact.

 

[pizza]

That stove doesn't have a vent connection. You sure it wasn't just put there for storage? Anyway, it is not an oil stove.

well, i think it was the house's furnace at some point, but it was just moved aside and left down there because it's heavy as hell.

it was probably hooked to the house ducting (on the side of the furnace) and also vented out (from the top of the furnace).

 

[pizza]

Yes. Probably #2 heating oil. Sure hope it hasn't leaked, but it is unlikely that a buried tank of that vintage is still intact.

well, ****.

i'm going to stick a measuring tape down there soon and try to see if there's oil. there's probably at least some water in it since that short pipe is just exposed. i shined a bright light down there, and i thought i could see some kind of reflective surface.

if there's oil in it, do you have any advice? just call a pro and prepare to be raped? will the EPA have to get involved? lol

 

[pizza]

our water well is on the other side of the house. 60 feet away as the crow flies, lol

 

[The Cobbler]

put a hose in there, cap the end and pull it up, see what yah got
with any luck the tank was run dry & all you have is mostly water

 

[isb cornbinder]

It is time to stop being stupid and call for some professional help. The house next door had a buried furnace fuel tank that was rusted through. The fuel escaped into the environment and the clean-up cost $125,000l The estimated fuel amount was about 100 liters.
Another house at the top of the lane had the old fuel tank rust through and a much larger amount of fuel escaped into the surrounding area including a water run-off creek that had fish spawning in it. That clean-up was $275,000. The environment people seized the house and property and sold it on the open market for $850,000. By the time this situation was made right, there was almost no money left. The wife left the husband.
There is no LOL here.

 

[captaindiode]

Was the other piped capped? The open pipe is the fill. The one with the new haven is the vent.

 

[Kaizen]

Yea I’d do some serious research on this before you go asking questions. I’d also get your well tested.
Imo the epa should have some responsibility for this ****. It was allowed and now it’s a mess. I know a little old lady locally that had her tank in her dirt basement and 500 gallons let go. They came in and dig down till it was clean dirt. Dump truck after dump truck. Doubt her insurance covered it. Can’t sell after it’s on record without signed off removals and clean.
This could seriously make you lose the property due to the cost. If it wasn’t for your well I’d say dig and pull it and no one is the wiser. I would not trust a pro either as they are required to report. Get a pump and some barrels and at least pump out what’s there. If there is heating oil that’s a good sign as it did not leak. Be gentle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ralf11]

our water well is on the other side of the house. 60 feet away as the crow flies, lol

that's the scariest thing

rather than EPA, this is likely a state matter - what state are you in?

 

[pizza]

this is a nightmare.

Was the other piped capped? The open pipe is the fill. The one with the new haven is the vent.

the lower pipe was not capped. it's as i found it.

 

[The Cobbler]

so you know there's no oil in the tank... and hopefully it was pumped out ... eeeeh gaaadddds or whatever. best of luck

 

[pizza]

a small silver lining: no one still living has been drinking that well water for over 10 years. whoever worked on the well last did not reinstall the well cap properly, and there are earwigs in it. we just use it for laundry and bathing. my late granny was not big on proper home maintenance and lived here alone until she was almost 90. then she lived with my parents for several years. pretty nuts.

getting that well casing inspected, the water tested, the cap repaired, shocking with bleach, etc are on my to-do list.

that's the scariest thing

rather than EPA, this is likely a state matter - what state are you in?

this house is in Michigan

 

[pizza]

so you know there's no oil in the tank... and hopefully it was pumped out ... eeeeh gaaadddds or whatever. best of luck

so you think the lower pipe (the fill pipe i guess) being uncapped means it was pumped out?

i don't know if there's oil in it or not. i need to stick a hose or a tape measure or something in there. maybe if i have time tomorrow. honestly i'm dreading the answer.

and even if i don't find oil in there, it could have all leaked out hypothetically, right?

 

[The Cobbler]

with the pipe opened , water will have been getting in. oil rises to the top of water so I am guessing there is no oil in there. if there's a leak in the tank which is likely, the oil may have run into the ground.
you're right. you have a nightmare potential

 

[bczygan]

Vent cap for oil tank.

1. Get a pump and **** the oil out and dispose of properly.

2. Knock neck off stand pipes and cover.

3. Forget you ever saw it.

Bill

 

[Sureshot]

Check what is in the tank, get barrels or whatever needed to clean it out, fill with cement/water slurry in the night, dig down,cut, cap, cover. Now delete this thread and go about quietly making things disappear. Pay cash for things, etc.

 

[yatg]

There's the right way to do it, which is to call in the experts and pay a fortune, possibly more than the property is worth and maybe above and beyond even that.

Or just take care of it. Because you've never lived in the house, and maybe your mom hasn't either or it was a long time ago, you can sell the house basically "as is" and say "unknown" on a lot of the disclosure form items. Don't start fixing things up because once you touch it you start knowing stuff you don't want to. Just get rid of the junk like that old stove and sell it.

"I know nothing!"

 

[pizza]

i think my next step needs to be seeing what's in this tank. maybe it's empty aside from a bit of water. and if so, then i'll dig and get some soil samples and get them tested somehow. if there's no oil in there and the soil doesn't seem to be contaminated, then maybe it was pumped out a long time ago.

fwiw, i got the well water tested by the county like 5 ish years ago. can't remember if they test for solvents/petrol residues, but the report didn't say anything bad except lots of minerals.

also, the grass around the tank is (and afaik has always been) beautiful. so i know there was never a spillover event despite the fill cap being missing. maybe that could also mean it hasn't leaked much (or at all).

but if i'm not so lucky, then step two is maybe researching the local laws, programs, and funds regarding tank abandonment.

maybe if i'm really lucky, it will be possible to do the right thing without literally ruining my life. i actually do care about the environment, and i love this property. i don't really want to sell it (or lose it) if i don't have to.

i'm starting to wonder if this is one of the worst things that's ever happened to me.

finally, i'll say that if things start looking bad, i know i can't live with the possibility of making people sick due to contaminated water either here or in the surrounding area. if that's how it is, i'll have to do the right thing one way or another.

 

[Don1357]

Empty whatever is in there (hopefully water), fill it up with sand so eventually it doesn't collapse, remove the pipes.

You are not required to do a soil test. You are not required to disclose what you don't know beyond 'tank, emptied, filled with sand'. The second you do a soil test you will know. And there is no unknowing that.

 

[pizza]

bonus question: given that it's a 1.25" pipe, what kind of pump etc can i buy or rent to pump out water and/or oil?

 

[Don1357]

A cheap drill pump would do it.

 

[pizza]

thank you

and one more: if, unfortunately, i have a bunch of oil, how would you try to responsibly dispose of it?

 

[Richard Cranium]

Here in Washington state, you pump the tank out, you cut a hole in the top of the tank. The dept of ecology sends a man out to inspect that it is empty. Once you get it signed off, then you fill it with pea gravel and you are done with it. You don't have to lie when you sell it. Do it the right way and be done with it. Rich

 

[Richard Cranium]

As to your bunch of oil you have to dispose of, take it to the auto parts house, most of them have a oil dump station.

 

[mike93lx]

As to your bunch of oil you have to dispose of, take it to the auto parts house, most of them have a oil dump station.

Not if it is mixed with water, or unknown liquids

 

[driftpin]

I am not an attorney, I am not a mechanical engineer. I have done permitting, plans review, and site inspections for installation of UST's in the State of Florida, and I have a S.A.R.A. certificate (Superfund Amendments and Reauthorization Act of 1986).

You should immediately cap the exposed, open vertical pipe. Under the second of the two documents I posted below, you are required to do this. Refer to SUBPART G. CLOSURE AND CHANGE IN SERVICE OF UST SYSTEMS, R 29.2151, Rule 51, Section 280.70, (b) (1) and (2), also R 29.2151, Rule 51, Section 280.70 (c).

This appears to be the specific regulation you need to-follow: R 29.2153 Permanent closure and changes in service.
Rule 53. Section 280.71 (see page 35)

If you don't do what you are supposed to, for mitigation of the site, you could be setting yourself up for financial ruin. Sad to-say, until you do more research on the situation, you won't know.

https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,460...e regulatory authority is under,(FL/CL) Rules.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...rground_Storage_Tank_Regulations_639266_7.pdf

If I were you, I'd be going to whatever jurisdictions you fall-under, and request any and all documents related to the erection, maintenance and alterations to structures on the property. This includes any below-grade installations, hereafter referred-to as UST for the purpose of identifying a subterranean (below-grade) storage vessel, and any ancillary piping. Piping to/from an UST is treated as a different category in that the definition of such (piping) is separate and apart from the definition of an UST, according to:

R 29.2101 Adoption of standards by reference.
Rule 1. The provisions of 40 C.F.R. part 280, subparts A to K, (2015), entitled "Technical
Standards and Corrective Action Requirements for Owners and Operators of Underground Storage
Tanks," as amended by 54 F.R. November 9, 1989, pages 47081 to 47092, and as amended by 58
F.R. February 18, 1993, pages 9050 to 9059, and as amended by 135 F.R. July 15, 2015, pages 41623
to 41669 are adopted by reference in these rules.

For more-complete understanding of terms referenced, refer first to:
R 29.2107 Definitions.
Rule 7. Section 280.12 is amended to read as follows:
Section 280.12. Definitions, for:

out of service
out of use
owner
pipe, or piping
public water supply
regulated substance
release
repair (important to the work done to any piping, including removal)
residential tank
S.A.R.A. Superfund Amendments and Reauthorization Act of 1986
underground tank (does not cover underground piping)


Further, this section of the above referenced regulations appears to apply directly to your mother and her current ownership of this real property containing an abandoned in-place UST and its piping (italicized, bolded, underlined copy by the poster):

R 29.2113 Registration submittal requirements.
Rule 13. Section 280.22 is amended to read as follows:
Section 280.22. (a) Owners shall register the UST system under part 211 of 1994 PA 451, MCL
324.21101 to 324.21113, on forms provided by the department. Owners shall register all UST systems and pay all fees before any UST is removed from the ground or closed in place under subpart G of these rules, unless written approval is obtained from the department. To be considered properly registered, new owners of existing UST systems shall register the UST system with the department within 30 days of ownership on a registration for underground storage tank form. New owners of anUST system who do not intend to use the UST to contain a regulated substance and who have not placed the UST temporarily out-of-service under subpart G of these rules shall empty the UST system within 45 days from acquiring ownership of the UST system. If, however, the property has been condemned by the state or a local unit of government, then the state or local unit of government shall empty any underground storage tanks that are located on the property, within 45 days of taking possession. All tanks must be emptied under subsection 280.71(b). Also, any change in tank status or any change in the information required on the form must be reported to the department on theregistration for underground storage tank form within 30 days of the change.

end of copied regulation​

This following part of the same document is-of particualr importance:
R 29.2121 General requirements for all UST systems.

Briefly, it describes the rules and regulations which a owner/operator (o/o) must comply-with for their UST operation, or non-operation.
Rule 280.40 (a) 4 (c) addresses closure procedures for the UST if required records for the UST have-not been kept (see page 24).


SUBPART G. CLOSURE AND CHANGE IN SERVICE OF UST SYSTEMS (see page 34) appears to provide a process for doing what you need to do to legally remove from service your UST.

 

[mike93lx]

I would not brush it under the rug but I do agree that once you have a soil test, things change. You can't unknow that

I would be consulting with a lawyer on this one for sure. You may be able to simply disclose it in a sale, but your obligation could be to report it to the state/EPA. Please don't rely on legal advice from random people on a garage forum

 

[Super Mech]

Find a guy who pumps out oil tanks or a waste oil guy. Tell him you are converting to another type of fuel. Pump tank dry, dig around the fills to the top of the tank. Cut a hole in it and fill with sand and gravel. Backfill the hole and plant over it. If you call professionals they will make seem as if you have buried uranium. If you want to pump it yourself rent a diaphragm pump that you can adapt garden hoses to. Put a length of pvc pipe with the end cut at an angle and keep it a few inches off the floor of the tank. Keep pulling it up until only the water gets sucked up. The water will usually be clear as tap water until you get closer to to the oil layer. Once you hit oil have a waste oil guy come and finish it. I owned a gas station that had buried gas tanks and fuel oil tanks. The heating and waste oil tanks were in the ground for 65 years. When we pulled them out they were in mint condition, no leaks even though the waste oil tank was full of water for years. The fuel oil tank had a rotted ent that would allow water in. It also was intact.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Another vote for a diaphram pump. A pneumatic one can't be hurt by varying viscosities, running dry or stalling, they can consume a lot of air though.

I would test the well and skip the soil for the reasons already mentioned.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I would involve as few people as possible, get the tank out and fill the hole and grass seed.

 

[rlitman]

Vent cap for oil tank.

1. Get a pump and **** the oil out and dispose of properly.

2. Knock neck off stand pipes and cover.

3. Forget you ever saw it.

Bill

Absolutely do not knock the pipes off and forget about it. The empty tank WILL work its way back up to the surface.

Here in Washington state, you pump the tank out, you cut a hole in the top of the tank. The dept of ecology sends a man out to inspect that it is empty. Once you get it signed off, then you fill it with pea gravel and you are done with it. You don't have to lie when you sell it. Do it the right way and be done with it. Rich

Correct. Around here, that's a self-service thing. You dig down to the top of the tank, cut in a hole and fill it in with sand or gravel or rocks, or whatever you need to weight it down so it doesn't float. THEN cut off the pipes, or at least fill them solid with cement, so nobody tries to fill them.

Not if it is mixed with water, or unknown liquids

Water in oil is not a problem. The only problems would be if there is gasoline or flammable solvents in it.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. We don't know what's in the tank until it has been sticked.

The real problem is that it will likely be empty. So, how do we know if it has been emptied, or emptied itself...

 

[Jackfre]

You have liability regardless of which way you go. Yes, I’d be tempted, assuming the tank is empty, to rent an excavator and dig it up and dispose of it, but these things have a long tail. Are you intending to sell the property? Non-disclosure will follow you forever, I think. Soil tests should tell the tale. You have found the fill and vent, but leakage would likely originate on the house side of the tank by the supply line.

 

[bp460]

I would involve as few people as possible, get the tank out and fill the hole and grass seed.

x2

-Brad

 

[pizza]

thanks for your input, everyone. it is a small comfort.

we don't have plans to sell the property.

assuming i got the tank out, how might i dispose of the tank?

 

[Don1357]

thanks for your input, everyone. it is a small comfort.

we don't have plans to sell the property.

assuming i got the tank out, how might i dispose of the tank?

Pulling the thank is a whole lot worse by a factor of a hundred than decommissioning it in place. The default plan should be to empty, fill with sand, remove pipes. The fill with sand is so when it eventually breaks it doesn't becomes a sink hole.

 

[rlitman]

Pulling the thank is a whole lot worse by a factor of a hundred than decommissioning it in place. The default plan should be to empty, fill with sand, remove pipes. The fill with sand is so when it eventually breaks it doesn't becomes a sink hole.

Exactly. However, that may not be an option if it spilled its contents.