Rebuilding a monarch 10ee lathe

[Grant Gunderson]

Edit: The following is the process of me purchasing my first lathe, a 1944 Monarch 10ee round dial, and then subsequent tear down and rebuilding of it. The posts may seem overly detailed, but I am hoping they will help me with the rebuild as a reference, and also for anyone else attempting the same. There is lots of information on these lathes over on PM, but I have not found a locations that documents the entire process form start to finish, so maybe this will be a good reference for it.

I always welcome input from others if there is a better way to do things. I am not a machinist by any means, other than a guy that likes to make stuff in his home shop. I am actually a photographer, for my day job, focusing mostly on actions sports, specifically skiing and mountian biking. You can check out my website via this link: www.grantgunderson.com




I got a line on a monarch 10ee round dial. Anything I should look for when inspecting it? It will be my first lathe. I’m not too afraid of a project lathe as long as it’s got good bones. When I bought my Bridgeport I did a full tear down all the way to the last screw so planning something similar for this as well.
Also thoughts on transporting it in the back of a 2018 F250 with airbags?

 

[WAS Jr]

You posted this on Practical Machinist too, right? Some real Monarch experts over there. If you moved a Bridgeport with that truck you should be good on the 10EE.
Bill S

 

[Grant Gunderson]

You posted this on Practical Machinist too, right? Some real Monarch experts over there. If you moved a Bridgeport with that truck you should be good on the 10EE.
Bill S

I don’t post on practical machinist. Too many grumpy guys on there it seems like, especially towards new comers. For the Bridgeport I used a drop bed trailer. May do that again this time but would prefer not too if I can swing it.

 

[jabberwoki]

Nice Lathe , looking forward to seeing it.
If it were me id go a trailer.
I just used a car trailer to grab my Rivet 1020s and it weighs 5 tons.

 

[dr_clyde]

Nice Lathe , looking forward to seeing it.
If it were me id go a trailer.
I just used a car trailer to grab my Rivet 1020s and it weighs 5 tons.

A monarch 10ee does not weigh anything close to 5 tons, They are small but stout lathes, closer to 3k or 3500 lbs.

I’d still use a trailer, much easier to load and strap.

I’d also check your math on a Rivett 1020 being 5 tons. I own a few machines that actually weigh 5 tons and they require riggers to move. My Hurco 4020 VMC is right around 5 tons and that is MUCH bigger than a Rivett 1020.

 

[930dreamer]

Post some pics, a trailer will keep it lower to the ground, the hydraulic lift trailer works great.

 

[macgee]

Contact GJ member " ez-duzit "

He recently purchased a Monarch 10ee about two months ago and has had to totally go through it to make sure all the wiring and systems are good and correct voltages.

Hate to say it but these are very complicated lathe's, much more than the typical engine lathe. You should see the massive old school glass tubes that they have. It also has a DC volt system and a lot of Monarch's had 440v three phase system in it but can be switch to 220V single phase by swamping out the two transformers.

I hope you're good at reading electrical layout drawings and comfortable reading a volt/amp meter.

Not at all trying to scare you but thought I would give you a heads up as there's a lot going on inside hidden away. I would strongly recommend before you pick it up that hopefully the previous owner can help you, run the lathe and check all the systems like the spindle brake.....etc. Knowing that everything is running well and working properly before transporting will be a massive plus.

Send ez-duzit a PM and he should really be able to help you as he's gone through every system and changed the voltages in the past month.

Good luck

PS> I believe the 10ee is 3,200lbs

 

[Steve from Socal]

The round dial 10EE's are motor/generator not tube drives. The M/G may need a tune up and the motor brushes timmed. You may not like PM but it IS the resource for Monarch 10EE's. Try it we don't bit too hard unless you act crazy. The best advice is make sure you evaluate the machine and understand what it may require. The other thing, make sure you get any accessories and attachments, they bring big bucks.

The round dial lathes are quite old and most are worn but, can still do good work IF you can plan around the issues. The M/G is simple and rather trouble free but noisy. Be careful when moving the lathe, take all the covers and trim off and pack them separately they are easily damaged. The best way to lift the machine is with a sling at the first web ahead of the headstock, use the tailstock to balance the machine.

Steve

 

[macgee]

Steve,

These are the C16J thyristor vacuum tubes I'm referring to (not my pic). I have had them in my hand and installed them. 10ee's can have a tube controlled thyratrons to rectify the AC current to a variable DC voltage to drive the DC motor. Since we don't what year or details, it's something to check for.

PM does indeed have a ton of info on Monarch 10ee's, no doubt but totally agree with the OP's post above, Too many grumpy, harsh, eager to bite as a sport on there, then throw in some politics. That seems to be current priority and then maybe help a fellow member. I've been a member for over 15 years and its no longer an enjoyable site to go to But I've totally digressed and have gone off topic (apologies to OP).

I do totally agree about seeking out as much tooling as possible, ask, ask and ask for it and then look in every nook and cranny in the space for possible tooling for it. Also agree about removing the covers before lifting, the side ones are prone to getting tweaked during moving especially when using skates.

To the OP, give ez-duzit a shout, He's a really nice member and wont bite back. If he doesn't have the answer, he'll steer to you who does.

 

[cvairwerks]

To even muddy the waters more, Monarch also used hydraulic drives on the early ones and pure DC on the latest ones. The year built with the s/n will tell you for sure what it left the factory with.

 

[ez-duzit]

macgee--thank you for your kind words. Though I'm no expert on Monarch lathes.

0p--Mine is a square dial built in 1971, so quite different from your round dial. Have the seller demonstrate all its functions, if possible. Better would be to hire a pro to inspect it. Mine weighs 3450 lbs, so I had a professional rigger transport it. Once on skates on my concrete slab it was very easy to move around, which I've had to do in order to squeeze another much larger lathe into my extremely overcrowded shop.

Monarch built mine as a 440-volt 3-phase only machine, so that required a few rather simple modifications in order to allow me to power it with 230-volts single phase. As Monarch is still in business, they are an excellent resource for some parts and info. They supplied me with a couple used transformers and a new contactor heating element, also instructions on what changes needed to made to the wiring connections.

Some good info @ practicalmachinist.com and @

Monarch 10EE Lathe

Monarch lathes - American made high-class machine tools. Monarch 10EE<br>Monarch Factory Tour

www.lathes.co.uk

These photos will give you an idea of some of the electrical/electronics involved in a late 10EE. Quite a complex machine compared to my old Logan (with no electronics).

 

[WAS Jr]

Grant, I agree about Practical Machinist, some truly venal posters there. It seems you are aware of the 10EEs complexity, too. But fixing those 50 year old electronics……
Bill S

 

[Steve from Socal]

While I am no expert on 10EE's I have owned one for a long time. Before buying mine I spent a lot of time on the Monarch forum at Practical Machinist.

To clarify what I said, the round dial 10EE's from Monarch were either motor/generator or the earliest 1938/39 versions had Sundstrand hydraulic drives. This is what the factory supplied, tube drives were not available in the round dial series. Eighty years later, who knows if the machine even has the factory drive?

There are many Monarch 10EE's with aftermarket drives and or spindle motor replacements. Most of these are later "square dial" lathes. The round or square dial designation is the age and design features of the particular lathe. The round dial was the original 10EE and they were produced through WWII. Post war the machine was refreshed with a different threading gear box. The spindle was also raised half an inch. The steady rest and follow rest for a round dial are different than the later square dials.

The motor/generator continued to power the later square dial machines into the early 1950's Tube drives were first configured as "works in a drawer" the early 1960 saw the next version of tube drive known as "module drive" These tube drives are and were the area of concern to buyers for a long time. My own machine is a 1976 module drive that was converted to a solid state drive by its original owner. Today there are drop in solid state replacements for tubes.

The motor/generator are all three phase, a 7+ HP rotary phase converter is suggested to power one. All the original Monarch tube drives are single phase. While the machine may be configured to use 240/480 three phase the only three phase required is for coolant pumps. There is a later regenerative DC drive that Monarch used 1984-? that is solid state that requires utility three phase or an electronic phase converter than can sink braking power. The newest 10EE's use AC frequency drives with AC motors.

There is decades of experience with all these different systems on the Monarch forum. You don't have to post to read the information. These are complex machine compared to many small lathes, the complexity is demystified with knowledge.

Steve

 

[IndyGarage]

They are heavy little buggers. About twice as much as a Bridgeport. I've never had mine apart but it still runs good for me.

It's probably overkill for your first lathe. I would go with something simpler.

 

[cvairwerks]

Actually in 1949, the Thyratron rectifiers were introduced and the motor-generator dropped. It wasn't until 1984 that thyratrons were completely eliminated.

History of the 10ee - Gospel according to Monarch !

Below timeline direct from a preprinted 10ee history sheet- 1939 -First machine designed as what is now called the "old height lathe". * 12" swing over the bed and 20" centers, with D-1-3 spindle nose * 30 feeds from 0.001 to 0.0075 IPR (inches per spindle rev.). * 50 thread combinations from...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[Steve from Socal]

Actually in 1949, the Thyratron rectifiers were introduced and the motor-generator dropped. It wasn't until 1984 that thyratrons were completely eliminated.

History of the 10ee - Gospel according to Monarch !

Below timeline direct from a preprinted 10ee history sheet- 1939 -First machine designed as what is now called the "old height lathe". * 12" swing over the bed and 20" centers, with D-1-3 spindle nose * 30 feeds from 0.001 to 0.0075 IPR (inches per spindle rev.). * 50 thread combinations from...

www.practicalmachinist.com

That is not entirely accurate, there were several machines produced after 1949 with motor/generators. The Navy comes to mind as a customer who used M/G in post 1948 orders. The choice was available well into the 1950's

You mention a "pure DC" drive? What is that? I am aware of a few machines being sold to factories with DC generators but, all the standard drives use AC current to supply incoming power.

Steve

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Hey guys, work got the best of me today, but here is what I know about the machine. It is in fact a motor -generator setup. Only major issue is that it won’t spin up to the full 2500rpm, but it’s unclear if that’s actually the case or it’s an issue with the Tach or brushes…it does include all of the factory accessories.
I’m less concerned about the drive unit and more concerned about the condition of the ways / spindle bearings etc. I have researched and am up to the task of converting to a full VFD 7.5hp conversion with the mods needed to keep the back gears intact.
Mostly I’m interested in hearing anything from someone that’s done a full year down / rebuild for things to watch out for upfront. I did that on my Bridgeport and plan on the same for this.
Thanks to everyone for all of the great info so far.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Grant,

There are several complete rebuilds on the Monarch Forum, as mentioned just read the content. There are a number of folks that used to be helpful posters on PM that have become cantankerous. That doesn't change the good work many have done and documented for all to see. There is a thread of a complete refit of a 10EE by a gent who has passed on, Harry was a gifted writer as well as talented craftsman. The thread is called New Toy it's a project (wreck) Several others in the last few years that still post frequently.

Don't deny yourself the valuable information and knowledge that is compiled on Practical Machinist just because there are some ******** members.

Steve

 

[jabberwoki]

A monarch 10ee does not weigh anything close to 5 tons, They are small but stout lathes, closer to 3k or 3500 lbs.

I’d still use a trailer, much easier to load and strap.

I’d also check your math on a Rivett 1020 being 5 tons. I own a few machines that actually weigh 5 tons and they require riggers to move. My Hurco 4020 VMC is right around 5 tons and that is MUCH bigger than a Rivett 1020.

I so stand corrected 1.6
Thanks for the heads up.

 

[matt_i]

Assess backlash on the cross-screw carefully as that is your most-often-used adjuster to make parts to target dimension. The set of that cross-screw + bronze nut is >$1000 at Monarch Lathes if you didn't like what you got at the time of purchase. Parts are available but its a 1-off to print @ time + material and that can lead to some shocking numbers.

Also run the apron back and forth a few times, ideal is that the internal bedway oiling is still intact and is "wetting" the ways as it traverses by hand and that gives you a warm feeling about the nice dimensional condition of the machine. If its dry or crusty then its not ideal.

Agree with others that a low CG trailer is your best bet. I transported my EE about 600 miles in a Uhaul double axle "RO" trailer, no issues over highways @ reasonable speeds. Be careful of weather & plan for tarps. Use 1" ratchet straps like "belts" to prevent flapping. Not a machine you want to get wet imo.

An M-G machine is a 3 phase machine unlike the Module drive pictured above which is a single phase machine. I've not owned an M-G but as I recall it can be a static or rotary conversion.

 

[Plastikosmd]

Nice lathe
Rivett is a bit heavier but only around 2 tons
Note the “mobile counterweight” that the riggers used moving mine (there are 2 hanging on)

 

[IndyGarage]

Wow - no way that Clark is big enough to lift that lathe, especially that height. And putting two guys on the back, that's a disaster waiting to happen. Don't do this at home, folks...

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the info. Been lurking on PM as well, so feel like a good grasp of the major items to look for.
Borrowed a flat bed car vehicle trailer from a buddy, so going to make the 4 hour trip down to look at it tomorrow. If it checks out, it just might follow me back home. We will see.

 

[Plastikosmd]

Meh, I wouldn’t recommend it but Clark did fine

good luck, the ee is a nice piece.
The only Monarch that I have owned as a 60 series. It’s a 48 x 72 and quite the beast

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Well I picked it up. Got another 3 hours to drive home but stopped after an hour to check the tarp and tie downs, and surprisingly none have moved.

All original. Everything works and checks out. It’s going to need a good cleaning at a minimum and I’ll probably rewire it with wires that actually have modern insulation.
As a bonus it came with a ton of tooling plus the original Monarch tool cabinets

I’m going to need some leveling castors for it. You guys got any recommendations

 

[dutchgray]

I’m going to need some leveling castors for it. You guys got any recommendations

Lathes do not go on castors.

 

[ez-duzit]

GG--congratulations.

 

[dr_clyde]

Congratulations on the nice lathe.

Just FYI, you shouldn’t put machine tools on casters. They require precise leveling and you can’t accomplish that with casters.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Lathes do not go on castors.

I’ll need castors on it until I’m done with rebuilding it. Once its all cleaned up it will go on leveling feet in its final location in the shop.

 

[Plastikosmd]

I would just use a pallet jack
Worked for me before (I have a 5k) one

 

[ez-duzit]

...you shouldn’t put machine tools on casters. They require precise leveling and you can’t accomplish that with casters.

You can use shimmed machinery skates.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Well I made it home with the lathe and my tarp job, while it looks sketchy did a great job of keeping it dry despite driving through one of Seattle’s classic Juneuary Monsoons .


Here is an image of its future home. It’s going to go on the left just past the bikes. After mostly lurking on here for years, I’m starting to think I should start a thread on my garage as it’s pretty heavily action sport based and is a bit different than the average garage on here.

Here is a bit of the tooling it came with. (The mitutoyo stuff wasn’t part of it. I brought it down with me to inspect the lathe)







All for less than what a South Bend 9 in beater shape with no tooling typically goes for around here. The collet set is a full set of Hardinge 2J collets. All the way down to 1/32”. What the hell would you possibly turn that’s that small?

I am already cursing it a bit thou as I dropped one of the 20lb cast iron access panels on my foot, when I slipped unloading the slick wet wooden deck of the trailer. Small price to pay I guess. However the good news is so far my wife hasn’t given me the toung lashing for buying it that I expected on returning home, but I have a feeling that’s coming. I did show her the CL listing for one a guy is selling locally that has been cleaned up for $10.5K, so hopefully that helps my cause with her.

Next step is figure out a leveling foot / castor setup. Ideally I’ll install both. With leveling feet retracted, let it move on castors, then extend leveling feet to lift it off castors snd level. I need to get that sorted as I want to install them when I rent a forklift to unload. I’ll temporarily lower it on 4x6’s to safely install the feet / castors. While I’m doing that I’m going to start tossing the tooling into my ultrasonic cleaner to start cleaning it.

BTW if anyone is interested here is a link to the restore I did on my Bridgeport. I tore it all the way down to the last screw when I got it. My Bridgeport rebuild.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

I would just use a pallet jack
Worked for me before (I have a 5k) one

I did that when I moved my Bridgeport home. Problem is it’s still sitting on the pallet I made, and while not critical for a mill, it’s not perfectly level and is in a spot that’s not easy to move again unless I rent a pallet jack again.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

GG--congratulations.

Thanks! Now the real fun of the rebuild can begin!

 

[Grant Gunderson]

I hit the max of photos on my previous post, so here is a pic of it after I pulled the panels for lifting it and before I fully tied it down. It’s a diamond in the rough at this stage. I also Lag bolted the holes in its base to the trailer deck. Ended up being a bomber way to transport.

 

[IndyGarage]

Wow. That's all the tooling you could want. Three chucks, collet closer, face plate, full set of collets, full quick change toolpost set.

I don't know what you paid for it, but if it's anything close to a south bend you got a deal.

One thing I would recommend is that you level it with a machinists level.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Wow. That's all the tooling you could want. Three chucks, collet closer, face plate, full set of collets, full quick change toolpost set.

I don't know what you paid for it, but if it's anything close to a south bend you got a deal.

One thing I would recommend is that you level it with a machinists level.

I think the only major thing missing is the taper attachment. I’m sure as I start to dig into it I’ll find a list of small things here and there that are missing, but it does seem to be mostly there and the machine is 100% original (that’s a good and bad thing given the age of the wiring. )

I’ll need to source a machinist level, but not to concerned about that yet as the rebuild process needs to happen before it comes to its final resting spot. I’ll keep an eye put for one. It took me 5 years to find the right project lathe for the right price as there isn’t a lot of true tool room lathes for sale in the PNW, despite all of the years of Boeing being based here.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Leveling is a good idea however, the 10EE base is kinematic the three points of contact support the machine. The tooling is a very nice plus, so many lathes are sold ala-carte. I has my 10EE along with a Kearney & Trecker 2H mill and others in a small two car garage. As mentioned get a pallet jack, they are not that expensive and will make life much better.

Steve

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Is there a reason to not use 4 of these these self leveling castors that are rated for 1650lb each?
https://www.mcmaster.com/2445T32/

 

[Steve from Socal]

Is there a reason to not use 4 of these these self leveling castors that are rated for 1650lb each?
https://www.mcmaster.com/2445T32/

Grant,

I have some of those, they are fine for many things. They would be a pain in the **** on a 10EE. For the price of three of these you could buy a nice pallet jack. I don't know how tall you are but, many folks put 4X or other blocking to raise their lathe. I am not that tall 5'8" and my 10EE is on Veler leveling feet that are high enough to get a pallet jack under.

I get the idea that you want the lathe to be mobile. One thing about lathes, they are top heavy and have known to flip over when a wheel gets stuck. A pallet jack provides excellent mobility and maneuverability. You have that flooring in your garage that will make moving a chore regardless. The only way I could recommend caster wheels is on a perimeter frame that is longer and wider than the machine base. To add that caster wheels should be at least 6" and 8" is better. The small wheels on leveling casters is too small for the weight and any thing on the floor can stop them in their tracks.

I have a huge shop with big machines and big forklifts to move them around. That is now, I was in your shoes once upon a time. A pallet jack is a small garage is like a forklift in a big shop. Once you have one you'll wonder how you ever got along without.

Steve