Builder built garage too short. What penalty?
- Thread starter vlocci
- Start date
Uncle murph
Well-known member
I once laid up a fairly large foundation,the plans called for a area way when the threshold was clearly above the elevation of the curb. I asked the superintendent about it and he agreed that it was a little weird but didn’t have an answer.A call to the engineers provided the answer,apparently the engineers had laid everything out 90* off,facing the house the wrong way.They fixed it with a couple of track loaders by flattening everything and ripping out the footers and starting over.The engineers insurance paid up.
JoeMcGov
Well-known member
The general liability insurance claim will be about like the lawyer avenue. Looooong and tedious with an uncertain outcome as the insurance company launches their own investigation that will include a thorough examination of contract compliance with the contract documents. Ambiguity favors the insurance company.
I would be 1000% headed toward a negotiated settlement direct with the builder.
I would be 1000% headed toward a negotiated settlement direct with the builder.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
So everyone missed that this thing was being built a foot too short until after it was mostly completed?
Seriously, did the builders even have tape measures?
Seriously, did the builders even have tape measures?
wssix99
Well-known member
First. Fire your architect. I got rid of 4 of them building my house. You won't be sorry - particularly since this one is being an idiot. They don't care one bit about wasting YOUR money.
Hopefully you have a contract. Hopefully your builder was insured. If "no" to either one of those, then you will need to sue your architect. They are often insured and you will probably get at least a little something from them.
If your builder is insured, you will need to sue or threaten to sue them. (The insurance company will not just pay you.) Get a lawyer. There are special practices for this sort of thing. Typically builders carrly $1M+ of liability insurance. That will be more than enough to cover your damages plus your legal fees.
Agreed on no one seemingly using a tape. I'm shocked by the incompetence.
As to stacking cars, these are three old vintage race cars with some good history. I vintage race them 6-8 times a year but for the most part the increasing values of them means they sit like pieces of art. The remainder of the space is for my daily driver's and new builds.
As to stacking cars, these are three old vintage race cars with some good history. I vintage race them 6-8 times a year but for the most part the increasing values of them means they sit like pieces of art. The remainder of the space is for my daily driver's and new builds.
wssix99
Well-known member
When I was in high school, I worked for a "contractor" like this. He owed me $5K and wouldn't pay me. Turned out my salary offset his girlfriends **** job and Porsche. I sued him and everyone involved with the projects I worked on and quickly got paid.
You need to lawyer up, and have the Lawyer IMMEDIATELY put liens on everything the builder owns personally and as a corporation.
Then the Lawyer has to find the contractors insurance carriers, the people who issued his performance bond ( NEVER do a project without a performance bond !!!) and file claims against all insurance policies and bonds.
Losses you can prove... the lift system, delay of completion, reduction in area.
Losses that are harder to prove and quantify monetarily? Unable to use the space in the way it was designed would be first on my list.
On a project that size there was not an owners representative (Clerk Of The Works) overseeing it?
Cripes it should have shown up as an issue when the blasting/excavation was done and the footings were getting prepped..... the elevation discrepancy should have shown up at that point and the project halted until the right depths were established.
It isn't like the space is unusable, it just isn't to your intended use.... and that is where real estate appraisers and such come in and negotiate real damages and diminished value.
Then the Lawyer has to find the contractors insurance carriers, the people who issued his performance bond ( NEVER do a project without a performance bond !!!) and file claims against all insurance policies and bonds.
Losses you can prove... the lift system, delay of completion, reduction in area.
Losses that are harder to prove and quantify monetarily? Unable to use the space in the way it was designed would be first on my list.
On a project that size there was not an owners representative (Clerk Of The Works) overseeing it?
Cripes it should have shown up as an issue when the blasting/excavation was done and the footings were getting prepped..... the elevation discrepancy should have shown up at that point and the project halted until the right depths were established.
It isn't like the space is unusable, it just isn't to your intended use.... and that is where real estate appraisers and such come in and negotiate real damages and diminished value.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Seems hard to believe that you don't understand that there are wealthy people in this world.
To the OP, I agree on tbe lawyer comments. Engaging one doesn't mean you have to spend 20-30k. A couple grand can get a lot of work done.
I know plenty of wealthy folks.....I find it hard to believe someone wealthy needs to come to an internet forum to solve a problem as massive as this. Lawyer is the answer, and anyone with this sort of chops knows this.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
ConCretin
Well-known member
The contractor's G/L insurance won't cover this. Unless you have a P&P bond and an ironclad case that the contractor failed to comply with the contract documents (you'd be surprised how a clear cut case can get muddy in a hurry), you have no third party to turn to. You are reliant on the contractor's willingness and financial ability to cure the default.
As you are obviously aware, It is not as simple as calling a lawyer and waiting for your project to be corrected or the money to arrive in the mail. Even if the contractor has the assets to make you whole (which is very unlikely), your legal fees will consume a huge part of any judgement. Award of attorneys fees is far from a sure thing. I've had to swallow the puke in my mouth and settle more often than I'd care to admit.
So where does that leave you. I'm not clear on where the mistake in elevation occurred. Are the footings at the right elevation and the walls are just too short? If so, I'd cut the roof into sections, extend the walls and pour a new roof. I know it sounds like a huge deal but it's doable. We've done similar jobs and you might be surprised how fast it can go. We're talking weeks here not months or a year.
As you are obviously aware, It is not as simple as calling a lawyer and waiting for your project to be corrected or the money to arrive in the mail. Even if the contractor has the assets to make you whole (which is very unlikely), your legal fees will consume a huge part of any judgement. Award of attorneys fees is far from a sure thing. I've had to swallow the puke in my mouth and settle more often than I'd care to admit.
So where does that leave you. I'm not clear on where the mistake in elevation occurred. Are the footings at the right elevation and the walls are just too short? If so, I'd cut the roof into sections, extend the walls and pour a new roof. I know it sounds like a huge deal but it's doable. We've done similar jobs and you might be surprised how fast it can go. We're talking weeks here not months or a year.
Guys,
I work hard and have had some lucky breaks when it comes to finances. I'm wealthier than some and poorer than others.
Regardless, I've been a member here for ages and appreciate the perspective, there collective experience and the ability to have you all as sounding boards.
Yes I can retain an attorney. Possibly that is the best solution. What I'm trying to get is perspective and a feeling for what is reasonable. Most attorneys I've used focus on winning. I'm not sure what winning means in this situation. Remember this is my family home and it is presently torn apart undergoing renovations. Adding another 12 months to this is not exactly appealing.
If pushed, I'm sure I have a winning hand here but at what expense? The builder knows he is screwed. This is financial as well as reputational. He has a lot to loose. I've lost something as well that goes beyond a foot of feeling height. He and I may be better finding a middle ground.
The shop is useable and everyone knows that. Just not useable as planned which comes with some penalty. We are arguing if that penalty is 10k, 100k or a bulldozer and fresh start.
There has been some great advice which I sincerely appreciate. I welcome more should people have something to contribute.
Thanks for the advice
I work hard and have had some lucky breaks when it comes to finances. I'm wealthier than some and poorer than others.
Regardless, I've been a member here for ages and appreciate the perspective, there collective experience and the ability to have you all as sounding boards.
Yes I can retain an attorney. Possibly that is the best solution. What I'm trying to get is perspective and a feeling for what is reasonable. Most attorneys I've used focus on winning. I'm not sure what winning means in this situation. Remember this is my family home and it is presently torn apart undergoing renovations. Adding another 12 months to this is not exactly appealing.
If pushed, I'm sure I have a winning hand here but at what expense? The builder knows he is screwed. This is financial as well as reputational. He has a lot to loose. I've lost something as well that goes beyond a foot of feeling height. He and I may be better finding a middle ground.
The shop is useable and everyone knows that. Just not useable as planned which comes with some penalty. We are arguing if that penalty is 10k, 100k or a bulldozer and fresh start.
There has been some great advice which I sincerely appreciate. I welcome more should people have something to contribute.
Thanks for the advice
IBEW702
Well-known member
Got any pictures ?
Half-fast eddie
Well-known member
And have him build an above ground very nice carriage house for the cars that got displaced. For free. And a new lift for free.
rancherbill
Well-known member
I only see three options, 1) jack up the house, 2) dig the floor in the garage deeper (this is probably easiest) and 3) swear, throw things and get drunk.
walta
Well-known member
Seems to me the moment the contractor gets the feeling you are unwilling to pay the full amount and except whatever he delivers will be the last phone call of yours he returns or see any of his workmen on site.
I would be worried every sub and supplier on the job is unpaid and will be filling lien against your home.
I sure hope you have been demanding lien wavers before you pay any bills.
Thread carefully
Walta
I would be worried every sub and supplier on the job is unpaid and will be filling lien against your home.
I sure hope you have been demanding lien wavers before you pay any bills.
Thread carefully
Walta
wssix99
Well-known member
I presume you are asking this question because you want a fair answer. A construction lawyer can help you get to that point for a small fee. They are experts in this and intepreting your contract. They are the professionals for this kind of thing.
Just like you go to a doctor when you need a colonoscopy, you need to see a construction lawyer for advise on a construction claim. You woudn't think twice about shopping your colonoscopy elsewhere. Nor should you stray from the prefessionals on your construction claim.
workerbee
Member
I agree. Have him fix it. He may have to make a claim to his insurance to help him pay for it.Penalty?
Fix it.
-You- didn't screw up the build, the builder did. You asked for a certain design (designed by the architect and engineering firms and approved on your building permits). The builder did not build what they contractually agreed to build. Thus by definition they are in default of the contract.
If the builder had completed the project per spec and then you declared 'Hey, I don't feel like paying you the already contractually agreed upon price and am only going to pay you 70%', would the builder accept that? I don't think so.
Hard pricing compensation? Your custom lift won't fit in the undersized space, that's directly the builder's fault. He eats the entire cost of the custom lift ($50k) AND a replacement custom lift (another $50k?) that actually fits into the undersized space and gets you as close to the original specs as possible. That's $100k right there. But the builder gets to keep the original $50k custom lift.
The space you designed and engineered and PAID for was supposed to be 13 ft tall, but is only 12 ft tall. Directly right there, that is an 8% height reduction. Let's round that to 10%, and assess the builder that direct 10% reduction off of the original $350k price. That's another $35k.
Up to $135k compensation in direct costs and the reduction in height.
Now to put a figure on your reduced enjoyment and usage of the space that you designed and engineered and paid for? A lot.
To me, some controlled demolition costs to remove and then replace/rebuild the roof panels should be less than $135k. Heck, demo the entire project and BUILD IT RIGHT.
What does your lawyer say? Or the architect?
ConCretin
Well-known member
Contractor's don't have insurance to protect themselves from their own incompetence. General Liability insurance protects others from their incompetence but it doesn't cover defective work. An owner can require and pay for a performance bond but absent that, there is no third party recourse.
Maybe a dumb idea but how about cutting out a section of the roof over the lift and raising the roof at that location. I did something similar in the concrete roof over my shop in the Concrete Underground. I have a 10' ceiling height and just needed clearance for vehicle roofs.
DSCN1315.jpg
Maybe a dumb idea but how about cutting out a section of the roof over the lift and raising the roof at that location. I did something similar in the concrete roof over my shop in the Concrete Underground. I have a 10' ceiling height and just needed clearance for vehicle roofs.
DSCN1315.jpg
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speedracerfx
Well-known member
On one hand, I say the builder (or HIS sub) screwed up and they need to make it right. They signed a contract to build something that they're not delivering. If it involves demo and restarting, then they need to do that. They're professionals. A mistake like that is unacceptable, IMO.
On the other hand, as the manager of a business who, on occasion, has to deal with an employee screwing something up and sending a product to a customer who ends up upset because of said screw up, I see it from that point of view too. So many businesses operate on such small margins, especially these days, that a screw up can be detrimental to their survival. Yes, as the customer, that's not your problem, but that reality has to be dealt with. You may end up not getting what you wanted. Yes, that ***** (to say the least). So a middle ground needs to be found. One that leaves you as close to being as whole as possible, while also allowing the project to be completed.
No matter what, this project will leave a sour taste in your mouth for years to come. If demo and rebuild isn't in the cards, I think at the very least, the contractor needs to eat any costs associated with the custom lift you now can't use. On your end, you could go with two lifts, but you'll be losing some floor space. You need to put a number what that floor space is worth to you, and the contractor needs to subtract that from his fees. That's the "fair" resolution. It's not really fair to you, because your original use has to be modified now, but it may be the least painful, and quickest resolution.
On the other hand, as the manager of a business who, on occasion, has to deal with an employee screwing something up and sending a product to a customer who ends up upset because of said screw up, I see it from that point of view too. So many businesses operate on such small margins, especially these days, that a screw up can be detrimental to their survival. Yes, as the customer, that's not your problem, but that reality has to be dealt with. You may end up not getting what you wanted. Yes, that ***** (to say the least). So a middle ground needs to be found. One that leaves you as close to being as whole as possible, while also allowing the project to be completed.
No matter what, this project will leave a sour taste in your mouth for years to come. If demo and rebuild isn't in the cards, I think at the very least, the contractor needs to eat any costs associated with the custom lift you now can't use. On your end, you could go with two lifts, but you'll be losing some floor space. You need to put a number what that floor space is worth to you, and the contractor needs to subtract that from his fees. That's the "fair" resolution. It's not really fair to you, because your original use has to be modified now, but it may be the least painful, and quickest resolution.
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Exactly, and in my experience performance bonds are extremely rare in residential construction, even higher end projects like this.
OP, I think you have the right idea going into this, settle with what you have for current height, and possibly do 2 more standard lifts to hopefully free up some floor space.
I can't say much to the compensation aspect, other than you are owed the $50k for the now useless lift, at the very minimum. Only you can put a value on your time spending a few years of frustration with the litigation route. As LLWillysfan mentioned above, settling outside of court, and taking what feels like a partial loss *****, it only ***** once and you recover quickly. Well, at least I have the few times I felt I got screwed. I'm sure that your current observations about the builder's finances are spot on as well, we saw a lot of this same exact thing in the building boom of the mid 2000's. Even if you spent years of misery to get a judgment, the judgment is useless if the money is gone.
Best of luck in whatever path you decide, I don't envy you.
rayra
Well-known member
nevermind. It's fixable, OP apparently doesn't want to fix it. $500K? in, plus a $50k on a car stacker, can't even be arsed to personally check on things during a very expensive build.
ddawg16
Well-known member
94 posts......and now pics?
I smell troll
BTW... I learned this from E-Tek
I smell troll
BTW... I learned this from E-Tek
Definitely not a troll, I've been here for ages learning and reading.
I'm guilty of not measuring walls during the build but this was not as easy as it seemed. I'm not in a o position to survey if footings we're at the right elevation.
Wall formwork used forms taller than 13' so it was impossible to catch this pre-pour. Post pour, forms stayed in place for 2 weeks or so, then were stripped and roof panels set at the 20 day mark
The window to catch this was pretty small and I'm very guilty of not checking everything myself given I thought I hired a professional.
I'm guilty of not measuring walls during the build but this was not as easy as it seemed. I'm not in a o position to survey if footings we're at the right elevation.
Wall formwork used forms taller than 13' so it was impossible to catch this pre-pour. Post pour, forms stayed in place for 2 weeks or so, then were stripped and roof panels set at the 20 day mark
The window to catch this was pretty small and I'm very guilty of not checking everything myself given I thought I hired a professional.
LLWillysfan has it right, demo the lid, raise it up and move on. Probably will take a few nasty letters from lawyers.
It is work but it is the path to get what you wanted, giving away that 1' will bug you forever.
It is work but it is the path to get what you wanted, giving away that 1' will bug you forever.
starquestMM
Well-known member
Take 80K and give them the lift as a "Booby Prize"
The Bean
Well-known member
I can't believe I read this whole sorry mess. And all I can add is a question if there is an option, whatever it takes, to cut the damn lid off this garage and jack it up a foot, fill in the gap and reconnect it to the walls with drilled in rebar. I don't care if your cage is #5 bars on 6" centers. Get a big tool. That's what we're good at here. Am I stupid or does not seem like a way?
Where are the damn pics?
And let’s have a look at the drawings.
Where are the damn pics?
And let’s have a look at the drawings.
Funny, I was thinking the same. I had one. Made my lowered Jetta seem like a monster truck.
vavet
Well-known member
Bigger house remodel in conjunction with this garage build means there is not a clear cut $/sq ft of garage that OP can use to calculate lost square footage based on the second lift for the cars.
OP seems legit to me. He's a "humble" guy - probably about as humble as anyone who owns 3 running, driving, non-DD Porsches can be. We had to press him to get that little tidbit of info.
OP: you're definitely owed something. How much? That's why you came here. I like your idea - audit the GC's books, zero out the P&L, that's your compensation and he gets to keep working without a ding on his insurance claims history so he can continue to work. For me, it would depend a lot on his attitude.
Do I think the guy made an honest mistake and deserves to continue being a GC? If so...then the zero out the P&L approach makes sense. Of course, you have to see what that looks like before you agree to it. Maybe he took this job with a minimal profit because he's working his way up and wanted it for the resume building.
Now that you know him and his work a bit better, do you think he's a giant F-up who will end up killing someone with his lousy workmanship if he continues to works as a GC? Did he try to short you to save a few dollars? If the answer to either of those is yes, then you go for the jugular. Who cares if he ends up out of business?
Maybe this is where an arbitrator makes sense. Lower cost than lawyers and I think the outcomes are more likely to be reasonable. You're not looking for punitive damages for $18 gazillion dollars here. You probably want an arbitrator with some construction experience though. I'm not sure how to find someone like that. Maybe you check with an engineering or architectural university?
You will think about the mistake every time you walk in this garage though. I don't think there are any two ways about that. It begs the question - if you were going to have two car double stackers from the get go instead of one triple stacker, how high would the garage have been? Would 10 feet have been enough? If so, how much extra did you pay for the extra 2 feet that are basically not useable for anything?
Is there anything the GC can do to add to the garage or the rest of the project that would add value to help offset this? Maybe something that doesn't cost him much but got struck from your "must-have" list because of the cost to do it?
What if he installed a bathroom in the garage for you that wasn't included in the plans? A paver driveway instead of poured concrete? I don't know if any of these are desirable to you. I'm just throwing out ideas here.
OP seems legit to me. He's a "humble" guy - probably about as humble as anyone who owns 3 running, driving, non-DD Porsches can be. We had to press him to get that little tidbit of info.
OP: you're definitely owed something. How much? That's why you came here. I like your idea - audit the GC's books, zero out the P&L, that's your compensation and he gets to keep working without a ding on his insurance claims history so he can continue to work. For me, it would depend a lot on his attitude.
Do I think the guy made an honest mistake and deserves to continue being a GC? If so...then the zero out the P&L approach makes sense. Of course, you have to see what that looks like before you agree to it. Maybe he took this job with a minimal profit because he's working his way up and wanted it for the resume building.
Now that you know him and his work a bit better, do you think he's a giant F-up who will end up killing someone with his lousy workmanship if he continues to works as a GC? Did he try to short you to save a few dollars? If the answer to either of those is yes, then you go for the jugular. Who cares if he ends up out of business?
Maybe this is where an arbitrator makes sense. Lower cost than lawyers and I think the outcomes are more likely to be reasonable. You're not looking for punitive damages for $18 gazillion dollars here. You probably want an arbitrator with some construction experience though. I'm not sure how to find someone like that. Maybe you check with an engineering or architectural university?
You will think about the mistake every time you walk in this garage though. I don't think there are any two ways about that. It begs the question - if you were going to have two car double stackers from the get go instead of one triple stacker, how high would the garage have been? Would 10 feet have been enough? If so, how much extra did you pay for the extra 2 feet that are basically not useable for anything?
Is there anything the GC can do to add to the garage or the rest of the project that would add value to help offset this? Maybe something that doesn't cost him much but got struck from your "must-have" list because of the cost to do it?
What if he installed a bathroom in the garage for you that wasn't included in the plans? A paver driveway instead of poured concrete? I don't know if any of these are desirable to you. I'm just throwing out ideas here.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
ConCretin
Well-known member
To circle back to your original question. What should the penalty be? The question should be what dollar amount would make you whole. How have you been harmed by your contractor's mistake. Only you can fully answer this but I would say it starts with the cost of the custom lift after whatever you can sell it for. I would think it would also include the costs necessary to provide the same functionality you wanted. What would it cost to provide the same vehicle storage. Maybe this would be different lift equipment or even an addition or separate structure. Finally your time and expense to resolve the issue.
Not saying you have to actually buy or build anything else. Just suggesting a methodology for putting a monetary value to the harm you've suffered. It's hard to put a dollar sign on disappointment, inconvenience and frustration. Give the contractor a choice. Door A or Door B.
Not saying you have to actually buy or build anything else. Just suggesting a methodology for putting a monetary value to the harm you've suffered. It's hard to put a dollar sign on disappointment, inconvenience and frustration. Give the contractor a choice. Door A or Door B.
After more thought and now knowing we are talking approx 2,000sq ft, here's my new solution. At this point it would seem everyone, including you would be receptive to a "walk away" settlement amount. Get the double lift proposed and have the builder/contractor buy that one and eat the triple one. You basically loose the footprint of one vehicle, but now have the ability to store another car. Calculate lost sq. footage as % of the job and subtract that amount from the build cost. Subtract another $125,000 for builder incompetence. Add back $25,000 for your role in this mess. Add back $50 for tape measures for everyone. JMO. Hope you end up satisfied in the end.
Black300zx
Well-known member
OP - Nice to see you are taking in the full picture as opposed to simply seeking 100% restitution no matter the cost. Given the situation you described, putting the contractor through the wringer very well could leave you with minimal restitution and years lost, as opposed to settling now and being 80% or 90% whole. It's very easy to "cut of your nose to spite your face" in these situations.
That being said, I'll echo the suggestions to consult an appropriate lawyer. Not necessarily to start putting the screws to your contractor, but to hopefully guide you on how similar cases to yours have played out. They hopefully will be able to guide you on techniques for calculating what a reasonable settlement value would be and maybe even vet your concerns about bankrupting the contractor (yielded a much worse outcome than simply doing nothing).
That being said, I'll echo the suggestions to consult an appropriate lawyer. Not necessarily to start putting the screws to your contractor, but to hopefully guide you on how similar cases to yours have played out. They hopefully will be able to guide you on techniques for calculating what a reasonable settlement value would be and maybe even vet your concerns about bankrupting the contractor (yielded a much worse outcome than simply doing nothing).
Viper98912
Well-known member
At this level of build, I'd assume you have the right legal counsel to provide you with your best options. I'm sure this happens often in commercial/industrial/high end residential situations, so the precedent is out there somewhere.
The sad thing is this will ultimately affect you in more than just loss of use. If the contractor takes off any amount being it $1 or one million he will be looking for ways to cut his expenses going forward which will affect your build.