Builder built garage too short. What penalty?

[NORTON'S SHOP]

Penalty? If the prints aren't done to what you specified, it's on the architect. Did you review and OK the final design? Getting advice from the GJ becomes he said, she said. Lawyer up and don't back down. You forked out a lot of dough and it's not correct. BTW, if this were my project and I had no involved fault in any way, it would be torn out and started over.

 

[mike93lx]

Penalty? If the prints aren't done to what you specified, it's on the architect. Did you review and OK the final design? Getting advice from the GJ becomes he said, she said. Lawyer up and don't back down. You forked out a lot of dough and it's not correct. BTW, if this were my project and I had no involved fault in any way, it would be torn out and started over.

You say like that it is an easy decision/move.

People get legal judgements all the time that never pay out. You can't put a gun to the guy's head and tell him to pickup a jackhammer

 

[Half-fast eddie]

, can't even be arsed to personally check on things during a very expensive build.

That’s not a fair statement. Everybody has a skill … maybe his is heart surgery, not tape measures and blueprint reading. And I bet everytime he was on site asking questions, the PM was telling him it was going well.

 

[JunkBonds]

Can you go down a foot to get your height to 13'?

 

[NORTON'S SHOP]

You say like that it is an easy decision/move.

People get legal judgements all the time that never pay out. You can't put a gun to the guy's head and tell him to pickup a jackhammer

That's why I stated to lawyer up. Depending on how the GC want's to handle it, one letter from a lawyer can screw up the rest of his life.

 

[58Yeoman]

Why do people reply to a problem without reading the whole story. HE SAID HE CAN'T GO LOWER ON THE FLOOR.

When I was a "kid" at age 24, I was my own GC (didn't even know what they were then). We bought a house from a new house builder selling precut homes. I had the blueprints and hired a contractor to do the basemet and foundation footings. When he was done, the house builder came to inspect the foundation before the house was delivered. He found that the contractor had measured for the beam pockets from the front walls of the house/garage. The garage foundation was 4' offset to the front of the house, meaning the beam pockets were 4' off. The concrete guy sent someone to cut a new pocket for the beam.

Sounds like someone wasn't checking things out before proceeding the the next level. Isn't that the person who is responsible? If the architect specified 13' walls on the plans, how is he responsible for the mistake?

 

[KnurledNut]

Penalty? If the prints aren't done to what you specified, it's on the architect. Did you review and OK the final design? Getting advice from the GJ becomes he said, she said. Lawyer up and don't back down. You forked out a lot of dough and it's not correct. BTW, if this were my project and I had no involved fault in any way, it would be torn out and started over.

NS, If I understood his first post, the prints were correct.

Anyways, I think the OP needs 16' or more for a triple stack. Fully raised, the top car sits ABOVE the posts.
The height of this whole garage seemingly revolves around the lift height. And im questioning if thats correct.
(In a garage that size, I would personally want more height for an additional two post lift for working on cars.)

 

[mike93lx]

That's why I stated to lawyer up. Depending on how the GC want's to handle it, one letter from a lawyer can screw up the rest of his life.

A letter screws up nothing. I think you have too idealistic of an approach on this stuff.

 

[yelchevelle]

Architects, engineers, and surveyors typically have errors and omissions insurance. If I am not mistaken, that’s what steps in if they screw up in a situation like this.

Builders have general liability that covers them screwing up something existing or someone dying because of something that they did. It DOESN’T typically cover quality of work. There are other things that you can do to cover that, but that doesn’t usually happen in residential work. This has been explained earlier in this thread. I think that the OP is being reasonable and honest with himself. If he takes the wrong approach, his house takes who knows how much longer to finish, he may not get anywhere close to compensation that is fair or equitable, and he may get a worse contractor to finish it if this one is run off.

I would be willing to bet the guy made a honest mistake. Hits a huge one though. If he has any business smarts, he probably doesn’t have many assets in his business anyway and has it set up in either a s corp or limited liability company. The most he has to lose is his reputation, which is huge when you are building that dollar amount construction. I personally feel like the OP is taking correct approach here. He’s trying to get some opinions before he goes full attack mode and ends up in a worse situation.

All that to say, I would have your sit down and then if you don’t feel like the builder is on board with making it right to where you can move on, I would call the lawyer.

 

[SmackinHondas]

@vlocci
Been doing some research.
Is 13’ enough?

TBF, OP said vintage. Either way…

2022 Porsche 911 height: 50” - 51”
1977 Porsche 911 height: 51.9”

Multiply by three = 150” (minimum)
Thirteen feet is 156” fo reference. Doesn’t seem like a great clearance to me. The ramps on this triple stacker must be 3/8” titanium or there is something else going on.

Can’t be a roof pitch because I’m almost certain it was mentioned that the ceiling was flat for the above floor.
Perhaps it’s an exotic lift that tilts the cars like a car carrier’s trailer? OP, we know you’re in a world of stress, but the fellas on here want to know what this triple stacker looks like. We demand pics! Lol

 

[NORTON'S SHOP]

A letter screws up nothing. I think you have too idealistic of an approach on this stuff.

Really? A lawyer can make your life miserable.

 

[JOE.G]

I don't have much to add, But I think pictures and drawings would help the more knowledgeable people here give you a good idea and possible options. I think at this stage I would figure out a way to make the 12Ft ceilings work, Since I believe I read there is something the roof area is being used for in the rest of the home design. Mistakes happen and it is ***** when it is in a project like this that does not allow for a relative easy fix. I think at this point to get it fixed to the original plan is going to be an expensive drawn out fight, If everything else is going well and you are happy wth everything else I would sit down with Builder/GC and make the current garage work. It sounds as if you have a large area and besides the custom lift issue most people can make 12 FT Ceilings work just fine especially if you are not working on Lifted trucks or industrial equipment.

I don't think I would be happy with any sort of patch job to get the ceiling up a foot, unless it was a complete tear out and I honestly don't think I would want that at this point. I understand you are annoyed/Upset but I would seriuely figure out a way to make this work in its current configuration. Can the company Modify the lift to work with 12 FT Ceilings?

 

[mike93lx]

Really? A lawyer can make your life miserable.

Ok. Guess we will have to disagree to agree on this one

 

[duneslider]

Life is more than just lawyering up and suing. That rarely gets you what you want like seen on TV.

***** that this happened, seems like the contractor wants to come to an agreement that makes everyone at least sort of happy. It sounds like he is willing to eat some here but it also sounds like eating the whole thing will put him out of business which isn't going to help the project finish.

12' is still a nice garage height but the question remains, could a new lift built for a 12' ceiling fit the 3 cars? If yes, then it seems the easy solution would be he buys you a new lift and maybe compensates your ceiling height reduction with some other upgrades, or adders that maybe you chose to not do because they weren't in the budget.

If 12' isn't enough, would a different lift that held 2 cars at elevation be a compromise? Not your ideal situation but maybe a reasonable compromise?

My HVAC guy didn't communicate my desires to his crew and they didn't do what I had asked for. Due to other work that was done at the same time the hvac guy was there (plumbing and electrical) moving all the ducts to where I wanted them would have required the plumber and electrician coming back to undo all their work too. We compromised and he just moved 90% of the ducting and it works fine, just not how I envisioned and how the plans showed. If I sued over every thing that was done wrong on my house build I wouldn't have a house. I was at the house everyday checking everything and I caught things almost everyday. My concrete guy didn't cover the garage and it lightly rained and froze and one area has some surface damage. He said he would replace the bad section, or he would pay to have the whole garage ground down in prep for the epoxy I planned. Seemed like a good compromise to me.

Having an architect involved should help catch a lot of problems, that's part of what they are paid to do but everyone involved is still human and mistakes are made all the time. Suing isn't the solution that will get the work done.

 

[Viper98912]

Really? A lawyer can make your life miserable.

They can. But it doesn't make it guaranteed that the plaintiff actually gets anything in a civil case.

 

[NORTON'S SHOP]

They can. But it doesn't make it guaranteed that the plaintiff actually gets anything in a civil case.

That's true. But does the defendant wish to have a red flag associated with him the rest of his career, or should he just pony up, fix his mistake, on move on?

 

[JunkBonds]

Why do people reply to a problem without reading the whole story. HE SAID HE CAN'T GO LOWER ON THE FLOOR.

When I was a "kid" at age 24, I was my own GC (didn't even know what they were then). We bought a house from a new house builder selling precut homes. I had the blueprints and hired a contractor to do the basemet and foundation footings. When he was done, the house builder came to inspect the foundation before the house was delivered. He found that the contractor had measured for the beam pockets from the front walls of the house/garage. The garage foundation was 4' offset to the front of the house, meaning the beam pockets were 4' off. The concrete guy sent someone to cut a new pocket for the beam.

Sounds like someone wasn't checking things out before proceeding the the next level. Isn't that the person who is responsible? If the architect specified 13' walls on the plans, how is he responsible for the mistake?

Probably because we are not as smart as you

 

[Rc_Guy]

I only see three options, 1) jack up the house, 2) dig the floor in the garage deeper (this is probably easiest) and 3) swear, throw things and get drunk.

You think digging the floor deeper is easier? Isn't there footings under the walls? They would have to go deeper also.

 

[egdede]

nevermind. It's fixable, OP apparently doesn't want to fix it. $500K? in, plus a $50k on a car stacker, can't even be arsed to personally check on things during a very expensive build.

LA was less arsed once you left....

 

[619DioFan]

would your garage space still be usable without the custom lift ? would a standard 4 post lift work ? perhaps the builder would be willing to eat the cost of your custom lift as that sounds way cheaper than a rebuild especialy if all thats a hold up is the ceiling heigth. just trying to think outside the box here. I would never suggest tearing it down but rather find a way to make the existing space work.

 

[WNYflyer]

Whole situation ***** of course. One of the first things I would look at as others have mentioned is a new lift or perhaps reusing/modifying the exisiting lift. Would it be posible to lower the floor just in the vincinity of lift? which like from what you are saying would require some excavation of rock? how much rock? I would probably attempt to run this by your lift manufacturer along with your architect working toegether with all the pertinent heights of the vehicles, ceiling height relative to the original floor elevation, rock elevation , etc so he can lay out and look at all the elevations, lift stop elevations, and whatever else might be need looking at. Worth a shot.

 

[Half-fast eddie]

Why do people reply to a problem without reading the whole story. HE SAID HE CAN'T GO LOWER ON THE FLOOR.

Well … maybe they can take out part of the floor …

Sorry … couldn’t resist. I agree fully … he said it’s not possible so why do posters keep suggesting it?

 

[billconner]

Curious if floor is at correct elevation and just "roof" or podium is a foot low, did that lower rest of house? Did other parts align or are there more steps somewhere? I thought this was part remodel but may have misunderstood.

If space is strictly storage, I'm guessing you loose a space for a car. Anywhere else on property acceptable for a detached accessory building, or just not useful to you?

I respect and like your approach.

 

[mcj115]

As it appears your are trying to be fair, I would suggest consulting another professional...and engineer (assuming you are not already a PE). Have the engineer assess if changes may be made to the building, or lift system to see how your goal of a three car stacker may be possible. The engineer may be able to propose corrections to have the system work that you, the architect, and the contractor may not see. Maybe the solution is a combination of changes to the structure and lift together. Once you may be able to understand other options then rework, penalties, or other considerations can be made to come to an amicable situation

 

[Viper98912]

That's true. But does the defendant wish to have a red flag associated with him the rest of his career, or should he just pony up, fix his mistake, on move on?

The construction industry is not like others. Small construction businesses open and close all the time to keep their financials protected and hide from past problems.

 

[rancherbill]

You think digging the floor deeper is easier? Isn't there footings under the walls? They would have to go deeper also.

Yes, you can do it. With a good engineer you can do anything. I actually thought of 2 ways to do it, but I am not going to post, because that will spin the thread into the weeds.

I did not say it would be cheap.

 

[m6z]

OP could be talking about vintage F1 cars. Those could be much lower than the 51" noted above.

I imagine this three car stacker was going to be the focal point of this dream garage build. It's going to be very difficult to put a price on that.

 

[techlaf]

Can you make lemonade with this lemon? Is it possible to add another outbuilding garage on the property with all or much of it paid for by the contractor? Can you go out instead of up on wall?

Do you have to eat the entirety of the custom 3 level lift if you cancel it? Can it be modified or credit toward something that will work in your built space? I'd rather have a wider 2-level than a 3 level. 3 level seems like a PITA.

Hoovies Garage on YouTube

Tyler Hoover of Hoovies Garage is one of our favorite YouTube personalities. Tyler’s enthusiasm for cars makes every episode as enjoyable as the last.

www.bendpak.com

 

[Black300zx]

Multiply by three = 150” (minimum)
Thirteen feet is 156” fo reference. Doesn’t seem like a great clearance to me. The ramps on this triple stacker must be 3/8” titanium or there is something else going on.

I'm assuming that the cars aren't directly above one another so that you don't get the full height of each vehicle. Maybe one is backwards and the three noses are stacked above each other? Something like this maybe? It would take up more length, but less height. He menitioned keeping them displayed like art pieces, so I'm guess the lift might have an artistic layout to it. I also am curious for more details just to lighten the subject a bit

 

[mcbane]

Just my $0.02 but when contemplate taking someone to court you want to contemplate how that might actually play out, because results are frequently very disappointing.

Your first hurdle may be disadvantageous contract language. Did you perhaps agree to binding arbitration? If so, you cant go to court anyway. But if you do get into court:

Your lawyer may try to convince the jury that the appropriate fix is to tear everything out and replace it at immense expense. But the insurance company lawyer (if they dont try to deny all liability) will say your custom lift can be replaced with a 2-high lift, and you can park the third care beside that lift. And that will reduce your 2000 sq-ft floor space by one parking space worth of usable space. So they will argue your actual damage, at most, is the cost of an alternative lift and a per-square foot valuation for the extra parking space. They will have an appraiser provide guideline valuation of garage space lost, potentially only $100/sq-ft or so, for that parking space. So they will argue your actual damage is at most $75k or so.

Most potential jurors will have way less prestigious garages and the jury will therefore be amenable to arguments by the insurance company that you are a spoiled and impractical perfectionist. So I suspect there is a very good chance the jury would wind up a lot closer to the insurance company valuation of your loss than to the tear out and replace it all valuation.

 

[Bucko]

Penalty? If the prints aren't done to what you specified, it's on the architect. Did you review and OK the final design? Getting advice from the GJ becomes he said, she said. Lawyer up and don't back down. You forked out a lot of dough and it's not correct. BTW, if this were my project and I had no involved fault in any way, it would be torn out and started over.

What about 2 phantom lifts. I know you said they don't want to take out the entire floor but if they only did a couple pits you could put 2 underground and not loose any floor space.

Or a single with a oversized regular lift on top. The one goes up, one under, and one at ground level.

PhantomPark® Subterranean Parking Lift - American Custom Lifts

PhantomPark® offers complete concealment. The only American made in ground car lift that meets applicable ANSI safety specifications. Call: 1-888-711-5438.

aclifts.com

 

[jd_1138]

None of those f------g morons busted out a tape measure?!?!?! Insanity. Sorry OP for the mess, I hope you get made whole.

 

[a6hux]

pictures?

 

[vrinner]

I think the biggest thing that the OP will have an issue with is long term regret, disappointment and dissatisfaction with the build. Regardless of the amount of money he gets back, if it's not built to what he intended/dreamed it to be, he will be forever unhappy with the build. Every time he walks into the garage and looks at his 2 car stacker he will be remined that it should have been 3.

I vote demo and rebuilt or finish with a discount, sell and build something new somewhere else.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Pretty sure the OP isn't a troll. He's been here since 2005, no shared IPs and about the half dozen I checked come back to the state of Mass, OP's location is Boston. I'd guess more the quiet type of guy who comes here to learn and admire rather than brag and boast. The guy is looking for help and simple advice.

I would verify that plans and prints are all correct for wall height. Have you sat down with your architect and GC at the same time ?

Maybe a PM to Doug (LLWillysfan)and ask for his phone #. He is a concrete contractor on a larger scale. If anyone on GJ could give you decent advice, I would listen to him., not that everybody else is wrong.

Suggest to you GC what Doug has mentioned about sectioning and repouring the roof. If he doesn't know how or needs help, possibly pay Doug for a day or two of his time to come down (Maine/Boston 4.5 hr drive) and mentor this builder. Any cost would come out of GC's bottom line.

If you can't get your correct ceiling height, the lift is useless for 3 vehicles as built. If need be, contact the lift builder and see what it would cost to re-engineer the height to fit the lower ceiling level. Granted, you won't get 3 911's on the lift but possibly use top section for storage of racing wheels/tires.

So mentioning the lift, I hope they could follow the build plans better than your GC and crew. Have you actually verified the assembled lift height ?

 

[Neggy]

Boston?

Can I come look when it is done?

Rockport?

 

[vlocci]

Guys,

Sorry for disappearing. The day job got in the way as I need to pay the bills. Toss in some snow and it has been a busy morning.

To answer a couple of questions:

Here is a picture during construction. The formed garage sits in what was a bedrock hillside. As of today, I don't know if the excavation crew did not go low enough or the foundation crew did not go high enough. I expect the latter as the surveyor set the corners for footings, but at this point can't say for certain as incompetency seems to rule the roost. Finished floor height and finished ceiling height are very clearly called out.

I will chase that answer, but regardless someone other than me screwed up.

To complicate things, in the space between the house and the formed garage there is now a second foundation as well as a 2 story addition. It is about 75% done. This was part of the bigger renovation project. It is not as simple as lifting the garage roof without negatively impacting all this other work that connects the house to the underground garage. (door and window heights, eventual drainage, etc)



Architect did nothing wrong in my opinion. Here is a snap from the stamped drawings. 13' ceiling height is pretty clearly called out as are elevations.



As to the lift, Black300zx kinda nailed it. These are old 911 race cars that barely weight 2200 lbs. The lift was to grab them from one side by the underbody (not below the wheels) and nest all three cars together. This is not a service lift by any means, but rather a glorified storage lift that shows off the vehicles. Imagine three of these working in conjunction, with the cars nested together for display purposes. The lift is built for one specific purpose, so it is not like anyone else really has an interest. A good amount of engineering went into it to make it work safely and as planned.




I'm in a residential area outside of Boston so property is pretty hard to come by. No option to build another structure on my property as I'm out of available space. Part of the reason behind this underground garage as it skirted some of the lot coverage restrictions since the entire structure aside from the doors is completely buried.

I hear you all on go get a lawyer, and I will consult with one. I'm pretty confident, however, that a legal battle simply means more cash outlay and little likelihood of collecting. Yes, I have a winning case but to what end?

Builder knows he is wrong, and has acknowledged the same. I believe he is committed to making good in some way, which is what prompted my questions here. I can't have him jackhammer this out without unwinding the last year of work and if I bankrupt him in the process I'm in a worse spot than I am now. he has not offered a financial fix as I expect he is testing the waters and wants to see what is acceptable to me. His blossoming reputation, which he has put a ton of work into, is worth a bunch to him and a black mark in this town will really hurt long term.

Yes I believe he owns a useless 3 post lift. Yes I believe he owes me for a replacement of some kind. I also think he is on the hook for some loss of anticipated use. I'm trying to find a reasonable way of presenting this in a manner that gets him to finish the job and move out of our lives. Showing up with a pitbull lawyer on day one does not seem to be the ideal approach for me. Call me soft, but I've been here a few times before and let winning the war get clouded by winning the immediate battle. (apologies for the untimely metaphor)

Thanks to you all for the comments and the sanity check.

 

[Viper98912]

Talk to the lift manufacturer, and see if they can do a redesign? If they engineered a custom 3-car single column lift (which is awesome by the way, I've only seen them for 1-car setup), they may be able to do a new design for your height restrictions. At the end of the day, the builder or GC is buying a new lift, BUT, he may be able to use the now-old lift to sell to a future customer. Probably losing half the price, $25k, but that's a cheap price to pay on an otherwise $350k build.

Lift manufacturer engineering may be the way out here....

 

[acer66]

Sorry to read about the mess on your hands velocci.
I have nothing to add on how to fix it but if there is no feasible solution I would focus on if and how you can l live with what you will have plus whatever the compensation you may receive.
While it all ***** the worst outcome imho would be if you let that get to you so can not enjoy your place which besides the problem at hand looks very nice looking at the picture.

 

[Lassen Forge]

You have an engineered underground structure that was approved meeting certain specs as called out in the architectural drawings. I can't speak to Boston, but I DO know that out here in Earthquake Country, they would shut you down in a hot texas heartbeat until you had everything re-approved by a registered engineering firm qualified in such structures. And if you didn't (or couldn't), then your best option would be to either remove the offending problem and re-do it, or vanish to a unnamed 3rd world country... which is what your contractor will likely do.

It sounds (to me) like the contractor is leaving you with a structure that won't meet the original design specs... considering the liability if you accept this incorrect build and, say, later it comes down around someone's ears... even IF the city will sign off on this non-approved engineering project... whcih if it doesn't, it's all coming back out anyway...

First thing is I'd consult a SEPARATE engineer or engineering firm AND a separate lawyer to determine even IF you will have a structure that your city won't immediately condemn as being an out of spec underground structure... coordinate with the city... because you don't want to be stuck with an unusable liability. What if the building department compares your approved plans to the structure, and condemns it so NOBODY can use it?

As to the "harm to the contractor" - Um, sorry, his inability to follow what should have been simple design drawings and build a conforming structure is not your problem. I'm sure you'll hear the "this job is costingme money" and "We know better" and "gee, can't you just let it go?"... It's more than a "compensate me x% for your mistake", it's "You promised me X and didn't deliver". That may sound hard as the hounds of hell, but in reality, he bid the job and he needs to make the job right. And honestly... if he's alreadly leaving a shambles, I betcha whatever you (and your lawyer) decide to do, he'll do the one fingered wave byebye as he boards the plane to Belize...

Good luck. And I mean it - I've had contractors do this (tho not on that grand a scale) and I've heard every excuse in the book and then some why he and his couldn't follow instructions. It ain't pretty...