Help With Square Nut Size

[DB26]

Hello everyone. I have a square nut that I’m trying to find a wrench or socket for. I measured it at 1 11/16 inches and bought a 12 point slug wrench listed at 1 11/16, but they don’t come close. Obviously I messed up somewhere. Can anyone help me out? Thanks

 

[Sinatra]

I believe an 8 point socket or slug wrench is what you need.

 

[4xdog]

The diagonal on your square nut is longer than the diagonal on a hex, even if the "across flats" distance is the same. You'll probably find a larger 12-point will fit, more or less.

It gets talked about on here from time to time.

12 point socket for 1" square nut

So, right tool for the job and all aside, what 12 point socket size fits 1" square nuts best? I've got an 8 point socket on order but I need to pick something up local tomorrow and I don't have the nut with me to try sockets at the store.

www.garagejournal.com

 

[DB26]

The diagonal on your square nut is longer than the diagonal on a hex, even if the "across flats" distance is the same. You'll probably find a larger 12-point will fit, more or less.

It gets talked about on here from time to time.

12 point socket for 1" square nut

So, right tool for the job and all aside, what 12 point socket size fits 1" square nuts best? I've got an 8 point socket on order but I need to pick something up local tomorrow and I don't have the nut with me to try sockets at the store.

www.garagejournal.com

Thank you for the quick reply. Any idea which size to go up to on the 12 point? I bought the one in the photo and I’ll have to buy the next. I also have my eye on a 1 11/16 8 point socket. I’m sure that’ll work, right?

 

[larry_g]

Thank you for the quick reply. Any idea which size to go up to on the 12 point? I bought the one in the photo and I’ll have to buy the next. I also have my eye on a 1 11/16 8 point socket. I’m sure that’ll work, right?

You are correct that an 4 or 8 point socket is the correct tool. If you have the access then a large adjustable might be the tool your looking for. A 15" size will open to that large, but check the specific tool as some may not.

lg

 

[Tools4Me]

Unless your attached image is deceiving me, it looks like you accidentally started at the 1/16" tick mark on your ruler and then measured to the 1-11/16" tickmark. It looks to me like you actually have a 1-5/8" square nut, so you would need to buy a 1-5/8" 8pt socket or slug wrench for it.

Here's a couple on ebay.

Pardon Our Interruption...

Grey Pneumatic 4552S Socket 729440478063 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Grey Pneumatic 4552S Socket at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[DB26]

Unless your attached image is deceiving me, it looks like you accidentally started at the 1/16" tick mark on your ruler and then measured to the 1-11/16" tickmark. It looks to me like you actually have a 1-5/8" square nut, so you would need to buy a 1-5/8" 8pt socket or slug wrench for it.

Here's a couple on ebay.

Pardon Our Interruption...

Grey Pneumatic 4552S Socket 729440478063 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Grey Pneumatic 4552S Socket at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

You’re right. I went and remeasured with a tape measure. It is 1 5/8. The ruler I was using has a bit of wear in the corner and I didn’t notice.

But with that being said:

1 11/16 is technically too large to fit, but it’s still too small to fit on the square nut. I assume that’s because of it being a 12 point.

So, now if I make sure I buy either a 4 or 8 point socket at 1 5/8 it should be cut and dried.

 

[KnurledNut]

Any idea which size to go up to on the 12 point?

1-15/16 would be real close.

 

[tamaraw]

1 11/16 is technically too large to fit, but it’s still too small to fit on the square nut. I assume that’s because of it being a 12 point.

Yes. You might be able to use a larger hex size to turn a square fastener in a pinch but it's never going to fit correctly and may damage it depending upon the force applied. 6/12 point tools are designed for hexagons with 60 degree corners while 4/8 point tools are designed for squares with 90 degree corners.

Spline drive tools will chew both up equally

So, now if I make sure I buy either a 4 or 8 point socket at 1 5/8 it should be cut and dried.

Either of those options or just an open end wrench with flat jaws will work fine.

 

[4 FN 27]

8 Point would be the best option but if 12 is all you can get according to my calculations a 2 1/4 12 point might do it. But you could round it off.

We build custom wrenches everyday. I can send you a DXF of a wrench and you can have sendcutsend.com cut it for you. PM me...

 

[nbpt100]

This one is affordable. A decent brand as well. You need a 3/4 drive tool.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FPCBGG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[tamaraw]

This one is affordable. A decent brand as well. You need a 3/4 drive tool.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FPCBGG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Except that it's a 12 point socket and the wrong tool . I get using a hex tool on a square fastener if that's all you have but if you are going out to buy something specifically for it, just get the right one.

 

[tamaraw]

Some more options linked from zoro. I'm not really seeing any square or 8 point slugging wrenches but you could use a 1" drive slugging wrench with an appropriate socket if you needed. You might also be able to use a 41mm metric wrench depending upon tolerances (1-5/8" =41.275").

4/8 point sockets

Crow foot

Combination wrenches (just use the open end)

 

[Mohawk Dave]

I love my 4 & 8 point sockets...and I have A LOT.....but sometimes they don't even fit correct (SAE on old USA made stuff???)....so, going down the list if no sockets or fixed wrenches fit, first I use those smooth jaw pipe wrenches, then either Knipex Pliers wrench or an adjustable wrench.

On the smooth jaw pipe wrenches, it seems like I always reach for the Ridgid Offset Hex Wrench first. I love that thing.

 

[KnurledNut]

8 Point would be the best option but if 12 is all you can get according to my calculations a 2 1/4 12 point might do it. But you could round it off.

We build custom wrenches everyday. I can send you a DXF of a wrench and you can have sendcutsend.com cut it for you. PM me...

My calculations show this is incorrect.
A 2-1/4” bi-hex should fit a 1-7/8” square.

 

[redwrench60]

Any reason you can’t just stick a 15” or 18” adjustable wrench on it?

What’s it off of? Railroad track hardware? Antique steam equipment?

 

[nbpt100]

Except that it's a 12 point socket and the wrong tool . I get using a hex tool on a square fastener if that's all you have but if you are going out to buy something specifically for it, just get the right one.

OK. Technically you are right. The OP is not giving us any context to the application and situation. In the picture The nut is off what ever it is use on. Why not just buy a new and correct fitting hex nut? How tight does it need to be? Is it on a museum piece or an functioning machine? Is the cost reimbursable or it is out of pocket?

Assuming he can measure the thread accurately. Get a hex nut of the correct thread and not spend $65+ on the ideal 8 pt or 4 pt. socket.

That nut is huge and beefy. You could use a pipe wrench to tighten it, if it will fit in the existing space. As suggested earlier. Any open end 1 -5/8".

A little more context may help to come up with a reasonable solution.

As a side but related issue. Spline sockets are advertized to work on square nuts. I know some people will say do not do it. I have on smaller sized wtih good results. But they never give you a chart to convert the size stamped on the socket to the square nut application. You just have to use the tightest fitting socket you have.

 

[JradM]

You could fix up that nut with a file. Doesn't look like you're that far off.

 

[kjbenner]

What are you doing with these square nuts? If it's not something you need a ton of torque to break loose, an adjustable wrench would make sense (you can get a crappy 15" adjustable for $10 or a good one for $50). A big pair of channellocks or even a pipe wrench would do as well in some cases.

If possible, ditch the square nuts and replace with hex nuts as a favor to the next poor guy who has to work on it (even if that's you again!).

 

[Mohawk Dave]

OK. Technically you are right. The OP is not giving us any context to the application and situation. In the picture The nut is off what ever it is use on. Why not just buy a new and correct fitting hex nut? How tight does it need to be? Is it on a museum piece or an functioning machine? Is the cost reimbursable or it is out of pocket?

Assuming he can measure the thread accurately. Get a hex nut of the correct thread and not spend $65+ on the ideal 8 pt or 4 pt. socket.

That nut is huge and beefy. You could use a pipe wrench to tighten it, if it will fit in the existing space. As suggested earlier. Any open end 1 -5/8".

A little more context may help to come up with a reasonable solution.

As a side but related issue. Spline sockets are advertized to work on square nuts. I know some people will say do not do it. I have on smaller sized wtih good results. But they never give you a chart to convert the size stamped on the socket to the square nut application. You just have to use the tightest fitting socket you have.

I think I have all the spline sockets from snap-on. Took a long time to hunt all those down on the used market. Lol.

And somehow I run across square hardware fairly often. As I mentioned before, 4 and 8 point sometimes don't fit properly (SAE on old USA stuff???)..... But between those and 12 points and my splines and even metric 12 point and spline I can usually find something that fits properly.

I don't know if dimensions and tolerances were just a suggestion back then for hardware or what. Lol. But there's always more than one way to skin a cat property. I will not use an ill-fitting socket or wrench and ****** up the hardware. Not to mention most of the time it's a refurb of some type that should look nice when it's done.

 

[DB26]

Wow. What a great community! Thanks for all the quick, informative responses. I’ve read through them and saw your tips and suggestions.

For context, this is for use on 100+ year old railroad track bolts. I wanted a socket or wrench to keep the marring/damage down to a minimum. I have a project I’m putting together for my home that involves some railroad track and signals, and lights.

 

[619DioFan]

Wrap it a few times with painters tape to avoid marring and use a big adjustable wrench to tighten

 

[Jacobs976]

If it's railroad the original tool used on them was probably just a long, probably 3 foot minimum (see a bunch of the 6 footers for sale occasionally) open end wrench. You have the across so you should be able to find a cheap open end with the same measurement new or used.

 

[dnschmidt]

This discrepancy reminds me of Toyota head bolts. They are double hex and NOT Triple Square (XZN). The difference is the angles. That's why the 12 point wrench will not fit.

 

[4 FN 27]

My calculations show this is incorrect.
A 2-1/4” bi-hex should fit a 1-7/8” square.

OK. Supply him a DXF so he can have it build.

Need to see your rendering so I can learn where my mistake is. According to the model I did for the pic it should work. Unfortunately I deleted my work to verify. I have been wrong. Last time was in some time in '87??? But I could be wrong (again).

I am always willing to learn. We do build tools for one of the biggest specialty tool companies in the USA. I have been far removed from the engineering side of things on that account so I am not involved in the day to day development or Laser programming.

I would like to see your math/model.

 

[4 FN 27]

My calculations show this is incorrect.
A 2-1/4” bi-hex should fit a 1-7/8” square.

Oh I have to redeem myself...one thing I forgot was to index the Wrench on the Nut. 2 1/8 would be a better size...



The one on the right would be a custom. We have done some like this long ago.

(This time I saved my work) D:\Garage Journal\DB26\Specialty Wrench.prt (future ref if needed)

Edit: Added a white Background to see if it a little easier to see.



A couple of our Special Wrenches:

 

[rooster59]

Big enough pipe wrench. Git er done.

 

[KnurledNut]

I would like to see your math/model.

1-7/8” is too snug. 2” is too loose. 1-15/16” or 50mm is the best fit.

 

[nbpt100]

If it's railroad the original tool used on them was probably just a long, probably 3 foot minimum (see a bunch of the 6 footers for sale occasionally) open end wrench. You have the across so you should be able to find a cheap open end with the same measurement new or used.

I grew up near a trolley line as part of the Boston T. I use to see maintenance guys walk the tracks with a long open end wrench retightening the nuts on the rail. It was something like 3 or 4 foot long tool.

 

[Adaylate]

Most of the track bolt wrenches I was around were not a tight fit.
You would roll the wrench off the nut being loosened or tightened and flop the wrench to the other side. This is when using a single head end wrench.

 

[tamaraw]

This discrepancy reminds me of Toyota head bolts. They are double hex and NOT Triple Square (XZN). The difference is the angles. That's why the 12 point wrench will not fit.

Not to threadjack, but I believe triple square/XZN is more of a German thing. Normal 12 point aka double hex is used in some Toyota and Honda applications like head bolts or flywheel bolts. Some Toyota head bolts are also female 12 point and take a male double hex key.

 

[redwrench60]

1-7/8” is too snug. 2” is too loose. 1-15/16” or 50mm is the best fit.
View attachment 1699748

I like your CAD program. (Cardboard Aided Drafting)

 

[tak1313]

Since it's no longer on the bolt, so getting it off is not an issue, can you just substitute a hex nut on whatever it came off of?

Of course, I'm always in agreement if it's being used as justification for a new tool.

 

[Nick Danger]

Since it's no longer on the bolt, so getting it off is not an issue, can you just substitute a hex nut on whatever it came off of?

Of course, I'm always in agreement if it's being used as justification for a new tool.

It sounds like he has a lot of them, and he wants them to be period correct.

 

[tak1313]

Ah, OK. Then perhaps this will keep with the "theme?" It's a Crane S6. From the last pic in the listing, it's 1-5/8" across the flats. $22 plus shipping.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224980520915?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=h91frvdLSSa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=eHTQ6FHITM-&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=EMAIL

If the link doesn't go through right, the item number is 224980520915.

 

[dnschmidt]

Not to threadjack, but I believe triple square/XZN is more of a German thing. Normal 12 point aka double hex is used in some Toyota and Honda applications like head bolts or flywheel bolts. Some Toyota head bolts are also female 12 point and take a male double hex key.

The female head bolts are what I was referring to. That's where many get confused and think that they are XZN

 

[4 FN 27]

Ok now that I am in the Plant and have access to the good software (I am caught up for the day, shh don't tell anyone).



Assuming a 1-11/16 Nut as shown above per the OP.

I gotta go with a 55mm 12 Point as the best fit:

1-7/8 12 Point:

Hydraulic Press at about 198 Tons.



2-1/16 12 Point:

5 lb Maul maybe?



2-1/8 12 Point:

Too tight.



55mm 12 Point:

Tight but I think doable.



McMaster Carr #7191A82

Dull Chrome-Plated Combination Wrench with 12-Point Openings, 55 mm Size, 29" Overall Length

Details:

Mass properties of 7191A82_Dull Chrome-Plated Combination Wrench
Configuration: 7191A82
Coordinate system: -- default --

Density = 0.28 pounds per cubic inch

Mass = 12.85 pounds

Volume = 45.32 cubic inches

Surface area = 167.92 square inches

Center of mass: ( inches )
X = 0.29
Y = 0.02
Z = 0.04

Principal axes of inertia and principal moments of inertia: ( pounds * square inches )
Taken at the center of mass.
Ix = (-0.04, 0.00, 1.00) Px = 11.66
Iy = (-0.01, -1.00, 0.00) Py = 1083.30
Iz = ( 1.00, -0.01, 0.04) Pz = 1089.35

Moments of inertia: ( pounds * square inches )
Taken at the center of mass and aligned with the output coordinate system. (Using positive tensor notation.)
Lxx = 1087.47 Lxy = -0.08 Lxz = -44.98
Lyx = -0.08 Lyy = 1083.29 Lyz = 3.71
Lzx = -44.98 Lzy = 3.71 Lzz = 13.56

Moments of inertia: ( pounds * square inches )
Taken at the output coordinate system. (Using positive tensor notation.)
Ixx = 1087.50 Ixy = 0.00 Ixz = -44.83
Iyx = 0.00 Iyy = 1084.36 Iyz = 3.72
Izx = -44.83 Izy = 3.72 Izz = 14.61

 

[KnurledNut]

Ok now that I am in the Plant and have access to the good software (I am caught up for the day, shh don't tell anyone).

Assuming a 1-11/16 Nut as shown.

I gotta go with a 55mm 12 Point as the best fit:

1-7/8 12 Point:

Hydraulic Press at about 198 Tons.



2-1/16 12 Point:

5 lb Maul maybe?



2-1/8 12 Point:

Too tight.



55mm 12 Point:

Tight but I think doable.

You might have missed the discussion, but the OP measured incorrectly. The nut is 1-5/8.

 

[4 FN 27]

You might have missed the discussion, but the OP measured incorrectly. The nut is 1-5/8.

Oh Chit...

 

[4 FN 27]

You might have missed the discussion, but the OP measured incorrectly. The nut is 1-5/8.

1-7/8 12 Point:

Hydraulic Press down to 164 Tons.



2-1/16 12 Point:

2 1/2 lb Maul maybe?



2-1/8 12 Point:

Just about right, maybe a hair loose (you decided on color).



55mm 12 Point:

Too Loose.



McMaster Carr #7242A55

Black 12-Point Box Opening Combination Wrench, 2-1/8" Size, 28" Overall Length

Details:

Mass properties of 7242A55_Black 12-Point Box Opening Combination Wrench
Configuration: 7242A55
Coordinate system: -- default --

Density = 0.28 pounds per cubic inch

Mass = 11.61 pounds (Weight Savings!!!!)

Volume = 40.95 cubic inches

Surface area = 159.73 square inches

Center of mass: ( inches )
X = 0.08
Y = 0.02
Z = 0.80

Principal axes of inertia and principal moments of inertia: ( pounds * square inches )
Taken at the center of mass.
Ix = (-0.02, 0.00, 1.00) Px = 8.74
Iy = ( 0.00, -1.00, 0.00) Py = 685.74
Iz = ( 1.00, 0.00, 0.02) Pz = 692.32

Moments of inertia: ( pounds * square inches )
Taken at the center of mass and aligned with the output coordinate system. (Using positive tensor notation.)
Lxx = 692.11 Lxy = -0.01 Lxz = -11.77
Lyx = -0.01 Lyy = 685.73 Lyz = 2.03
Lzx = -11.77 Lzy = 2.03 Lzz = 8.95

Moments of inertia: ( pounds * square inches )
Taken at the output coordinate system. (Using positive tensor notation.)
Ixx = 699.46 Ixy = 0.00 Ixz = -11.01
Iyx = 0.00 Iyy = 693.15 Iyz = 2.17
Izx = -11.01 Izy = 2.17 Izz = 9.03