110 Outlets not working

[checkthisout]

Yeah, I'm gonna start there. I will replace the GFCI and see what happens. If everything is good, I'm done. If not, I will pull some other outlets starting with the one outside.

We are the second owners of the house. It is a nice lake house. Good condition and everything is holding up fine.

The builder was the brother of the original owner. He build it for her. Maybe electrical wasn't his strong suit or he hired a crappy electrician. Who knows.

It was built in 89.

It was probably somewhat unfinished and a do-it-yourselfer added circuits as they went.

There is no way that install would have passed inspection.

I don't like ripping on the wiring on your new place but as you get time, I would pull those false ceiling panels out and get the wires properly routed and stapled and eliminate the conduits at the top of the panel.

An actual sparky can chime in and yay or nay my suggestion.

 

[DocPhilMD]

It was probably somewhat unfinished and a do-it-yourselfer added circuits as they went.

There is no way that install would have passed inspection.

I don't like ripping on the wiring on your new place but as you get time, I would pull those false ceiling panels out and get the wires properly routed and stapled and eliminate the conduits at the top of the panel.

An actual sparky can chime in and yay or nay my suggestion.

I may do that at some point.

which panels are you referring to?

Oh don't mind ripping on it. No big deal. I would rather know if something is sketchy and maybe I can fix it.

 

[checkthisout]

In that pic in the cavity above the suspended ceiling there is a romex entering the troffer (suspensed light) with no type of retention device or even a bushing.

 

[DocPhilMD]

In that pic in the cavity above the suspended ceiling there is a romex entering the troffer (suspensed light) with no type of retention device or even a bushing.

Oh ok. I gotcha.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind going around in the basement and making sure the wiring gets cleaned up.

As for the conduits, man I don't know if I wanna mess with that.

If one of the electricians on here, tells me I should, I will. But I won't be looking forward to it!!!!!

 

[checkthisout]

Oh ok. I gotcha.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind going around in the basement and making sure the wiring gets cleaned up.

As for the conduits, man I don't know if I wanna mess with that.

If one of the electricians on here, tells me I should, I will. But I won't be looking forward to it!!!!!

I don't think it would be as big of project as you think. Shut power off, pull wires out one by one and reinstall in clamps installed in the smaller knockout holes as you go.

There aren't any bushings at the tops of the conduits so the wires will eventually chaff on the sharp edges.

I'm not sure what the calculations are for conduit fill either.

 

[DocPhilMD]

I don't think it would be as big of project as you think. Shut power off, pull wires out one by one and reinstall in clamps installed in the smaller knockout holes as you go.

There aren't any bushings at the tops of the conduits so the wires will eventually chaff on the sharp edges.

I'm not sure what the calculations are for conduit fill either.

Got a pic of what is "should" look like?

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

OK so I think I figured out what is wrong.

I pulled the GFCI and I found that there are 4 wires coming in. 2 from the "line" and 2 from the "load".

However, I noticed that the hots from the line were in "line" and the neutrals were in "load". So it was miswired. I correct that and put the both hots and neutrals from line in line and tested. And sure enough, 120 V from line.

We've been traveling, so I'm just catching up.

Doc: How did you differentiate the "hots" from the "neutrals"? How could you tell the difference between "hots" and "neutrals"? Was this the first time you pulled the GFCI out and looked at how the wires were connected?

 

[DocPhilMD]

We've been traveling, so I'm just catching up.

Doc: How did you differentiate the "hots" from the "neutrals"? How could you tell the difference between "hots" and "neutrals"? Was this the first time you pulled the GFCI out and looked at how the wires were connected?

Is this a trick question?

The hots were black and the neutrals were white?

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Is this a trick question?

The hots were black and the neutrals were white?

No it wasn't. I was surprised that it took this long to realize that the GFCI was wired very wrong.

If this was the first time you pulled the receptacle out of the box and discovered it, then I understand. But given the amount of testing that it appears you were doing and reporting, I would have thought you had pulled the receptacle out and looked at it much earlier in the thread. But maybe you hadn't.

As I probably stated in my first post, I'm not an electrician but have done quite a bit of electrical work (that has been checked by electricians as "OK") and read ton on the GJF. I've found reversed hots and neutrals on my own house using the receptacle tester ... but I think your situation has to go down in the annals of the GJF one of the <dumbest, stupidest, worst, etc. ... pick one> that has come to light.

Your situation spotlights one of the things that the really smart guys and gals have taught me over time ... when you have a problem and are trying to figure out what is wrong, don't always assume everything is "right".

Hopefully wiring a new CFCI into this circuit will "solve" your problem of the downstream outlets. But given what you discovered to be so wrong, it would not surprise me to find other things to be wrong.

Keep the reports coming in!

 

[DocPhilMD]

****, I think the length of the thread is somewhat misleading. I haven't really done any thorough testing until today.

I kind of got side tracked with installing that generator plug and just got back to this project.

I think the thing that threw me off was that goofy voltage coming from the other outlets. But it makes sense now.

I'm with you though buddy. Part of me wants to pull ever plug in the house and make sure they are wired right.

For what its worth, I got a thumbs up on my wiring job of the generator plug. So I'm pretty stoked about that!!!!

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Part of me wants to pull ever plug in the house and make sure they are wired right.

You now have the receptacle checking device, so start checking all the receptacles in the house. Start at what you think are the receptacles closest to the breaker. Check one breaker, one circuit at a time. Flipped hot/neutral or bad ground might occur at the beginning or the middle of a circuit.

If you have a label maker, label the outlets indicating what breaker they are on.

At this point previous wiring in the house is a little suspect. You could find more "interesting things". That is why I would recommend turning off all the breakers, work with one circuit at a time, and label the breakers. As you move from circuit to circuit, go back to the labelled receptacles and check to see if they have power, which would indicate they are somehow wired into a second circuit.

Good luck!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OK so I think I figured out what is wrong.

I pulled the GFCI and I found that there are 4 wires coming in. 2 from the "line" and 2 from the "load".

However, I noticed that the hots from the line were in "line" and the neutrals were in "load". So it was miswired. I correct that and put the both hots and neutrals from line in line and tested. And sure enough, 120 V from line.

PLUS, the GFCI is bad.

So I think the GFCI is bad plus it was miswired and that would explain the weird voltage readings downstream correct?

Did you try resetting the GFCI? Probably fried the internal circuitry having it hooked up that way.

Yes, I think you found the source of the goofy voltage reads since the circuit was being feed through the internal sensing components of the outlet rather than through the contacts.

Yes, I did. The GFCI is toast. That was my thought as well. I can't imagine it is good for the GFCI to have it run that way.

This makes me wonder about the people that lived here before me.

Did the builder just hook up the electrical incorrectly and the homeowners were like...."meh, we just won't use those outlets". WTF?????

Some brands of GFCIs can fail if miswired. And one brand of GFCI has circuitry that prevents it from being reset IF its miswired.

Heres a good read:

http://m.ecmweb.com/content/how-gfcis-work

Not to drag it out but you can't be sure the GFCI is bad unless you left the "load" terminals unhooked so that any downstream failures aren't keeping you from resetting GFCI.

Regardless, I would replace it but you still may have a problem downstream.

The wiring in and out of the panel you posted pictures of is a complete mess and I don't think it's code to have all that NM-B stuffed into conduit like that without severe derating.

It looks like a do-it-yourselfer job that was done without a good understanding of guidelines and codes and without good planning or workmanship.


What's the history of this house? How old is it? How did it come into your life?

As i said earlier, it depends on the length of conduit and IF the NM-b is touching and for how long. If under 24", then its code permissable.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Not most. All!

I don't like it either but its more than I'm willing to tackle

I figured Id give you credit for the 10/3 to the transfer switch.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It depends on how long the conduit is. Under 24" its fine. NM-b wire is only subject to detating when bundled and touching for a continous length of more than 24".



The thought crossed my mind to bring that up but seeing that the OP is confused about his 2 threads, i didnt want to open another can of worms.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Okay boys. I finally got around to making a diagram. I find a couple things interesting.

1)voltage at every other outlet is 60 other than the GFCI when the breaker is on.
2)two outlets (entry bath and outdoor) show "open hot" when tester is plugged in and the other two show "hot/neutral reverse".

Okay where do I go from here?

60v at an outlet is normally a sign of an open neutral in my experiance.

 

[DocPhilMD]

I replaced the GFCI and wired it correctly. Now the voltage is zero at all outlets downstream.

Now I'm going to delete the GFCI and check all outlets.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Does the GFCI have power on its outlets?

Was the GFCI reset?

Did u push the reset button?

Newer GFCIs are tripped when theres no power and dont automatically reset...

 

[checkthisout]

Does the GFCI have power on its outlets?

Was the GFCI reset?

Did u push the reset button?

Newer GFCIs are tripped when theres no power and dont automatically reset...

Yes, Doc, please confirm that you have an illuminated green light on your new GFCI.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Yes, Doc, please confirm that you have an illuminated green light on your new GFCI.

No green light and yes I reset it and it wouldn't reset

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Do u have voltage on the line side?

Do u have hot and neutral on the correct sides?

If those check out then the Next step is to remove wires from load side and try a reset.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Do u have voltage on the line side?

Do u have hot and neutral on the correct sides?

If those check out then the Next step is to remove wires from load side and try a reset.

Yes everything is wired correct and 120v on line side

I will remove wires from load and try a reset tomorrow. I will report back

 

[checkthisout]

No green light and yes I reset it and it wouldn't reset

Gotcha.

Expounding on what Wylies just asked,

Make sure your not and neutral wires are actually the hot and neutral and not reversed.

Somebody could have gotten them mixed up in a device upstream of the outlet you are working on.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Okay. I have some updates and pics. I checked all the outlets. A couple were cracked and the ground on the garage outlet look fried. I replaced two overall. The GFCI still wouldn't work

So then I bypassed the GFCI and ALL the outlets worked fine!

So, I am stuck now. I attached some pics of the box and lines coming out and how I wired up the GFCI

In the pic of the box, the wires that comes out of the bottom are 120V between them. So I hooked these to "line". The top two were hooked to load. I checked all connections, wire nuts, etc and everything was fine. One thing I noted was that when my nephew flipped on the GFCI, the LED flashed RED for a sec then went off. The other GFCI didn't do this (the original one).

So what now?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How did u test for voltage? Hot to neutral or hot to ground? If hot to neutral u should test hot to ground to be sure hot and neutral arent reversed.

Also, when u removed the GFCI and checked the downstream outlets did u use the outlet tester? Did it show correct polarity?

 

[Dustball]

Process of elimination. Start with the outlet farthest away from the GFCI and disconnect it- see if the GFCI resets then. If it doesn't, move to the next closest and repeat.

Although, you didn't say if the GFCI would reset without anything connected to the load side.

 

[DocPhilMD]

1)voltage between hot and ground is 120

2)Yes, all the plugs read correct on the plug tester and were 120v

3)GFCI will NOT reset with load disconnected.

What now?

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

1)voltage between hot and ground is 120

2)Yes, all the plugs read correct on the plug tester and were 120v

3)GFCI will NOT reset with load disconnected.

What now?

#1---You're checking the new GFCI, please confirm. Where are you measuring the voltage? At the lugs on the side? Or by poking the probes of the DMM into the outlet holes? What is the voltage between the hot and neutral? Is there voltage between the neutral and the ground?

#2--To confirm precisely what you're doing, let me restate what I think you did and let us know if his is correct: "Yes, the two outlets on the new GFCI read correct on the plug tester."

#2--How did you determine they were 120volts?

#3--If the GFCI would not reset, how were you able to perform the test in #2? If the GFCI would not reset, both the outlets on the new GFCI should be dead. I presume if the GFCI would not reset, the little green light was "out"; please confirm.

Keep "plugging away" on this!

 

[DocPhilMD]

#1---You're checking the new GFCI, please confirm. Where are you measuring the voltage? At the lugs on the side? Or by poking the probes of the DMM into the outlet holes? What is the voltage between the hot and neutral? Is there voltage between the neutral and the ground?

#2--To confirm precisely what you're doing, let me restate what I think you did and let us know if his is correct: "Yes, the two outlets on the new GFCI read correct on the plug tester."

#2--How did you determine they were 120volts?

#3--If the GFCI would not reset, how were you able to perform the test in #2? If the GFCI would not reset, both the outlets on the new GFCI should be dead. I presume if the GFCI would not reset, the little green light was "out"; please confirm.

Keep "plugging away" on this!

1)Voltage was 120 between hot and neutral and hot and ground on new gfci. I tested with the DMM with the leads on the lugs on the side

2)No, I tested the other outlets in the circuit. There are 4 of them. None of them work when the GFCI is hooked up. When the GFCI is bypassed, they all work and the plug tester reads normal. I didn't test the new GFCI with the plug tester because it wont' reset so there is no point.

3)exactly. I think you misread what I said in number two. Or I miswrote

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Time for a new gfci,Id probably swap out those red wire nuts for tans if you can find some to free up space in that box.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Time for a new gfci,Id probably swap out those red wire nuts for tans if you can find some to free up space in that box.

Dude, I just got this GFCI.

Get another one?

could the brand new one be junk?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

If youve got 120v coming into the gfci and nothing going out to the outlets,but you have power going to the other outlets when you bypass the gfci it tells me one of 2 things.
1-you either have a fault in the wiring going to the garage thats too small to be sensed by the circuit breaker.
2-you have a bad gfci.
You could take the wires loose from the load side of the gfci and ohm the hot wire and the neutral wire feeding the outlets with a meter to see if theres any continuity between them.
Then you can repeat the process between the hot and the ground wire.
Then the neutral and the ground to see if the power is being returned by the ground instead of the neutral for some reason.
Or if youre close to the store you could just swap out the new gfci to eliminate it as a possible problem,stranger things have happened with mass produced electrical parts.
If the replacement gfci does the same thing,then you know you need to starting buzzing out wires.

 

[DocPhilMD]

If youve got 120v coming into the gfci and nothing going out to the outlets,but you have power going to the other outlets when you bypass the gfci it tells me one of 2 things.
1-you either have a fault in the wiring going to the garage thats too small to be sensed by the circuit breaker.
2-you have a bad gfci.
You could take the wires loose from the load side of the gfci and ohm the hot wire and the neutral wire feeding the outlets with a meter to see if theres any continuity between them.
Then you can repeat the process between the hot and the ground wire.
Then the neutral and the ground to see if the power is being returned by the ground instead of the neutral for some reason.
Or if youre close to the store you could just swap out the new gfci to eliminate it as a possible problem,stranger things have happened with mass produced electrical parts.
If the replacement gfci does the same thing,then you know you need to starting buzzing out wires.

Ok. Thank you very much.

Can you explain how to "ohm" the wires? What settings on the DMM and what should I be looking for?

Here is my DMM

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Ok. Thank you very much.

Can you explain how to "ohm" the wires? What settings on the DMM and what should I be looking for?

Here is my DMM

Id set it on the bottom right setting of your ohm scale to make it easy(arrow with the line),just listen for the buzz and youll know you have 2 wires making contact with each other someplace downstream in the circuit.
After setting the meter touch the 2 leads together for a sec so youll know what to listen for.
Then you can always isolate late each outlet to narrow down the problem area.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Id set it on the bottom right setting of your ohm scale to make it easy(arrow with the line),just listen for the buzz and youll know you have 2 wires making contact with each other someplace downstream in the circuit.
After setting the meter touch the 2 leads together for a sec so youll know what to listen for.
Then you can always isolate late each outlet to narrow down the problem area.

Ok. Sounds like a plan. I will swing by home depot on the way home from work tomorrow and get a new GFCI. Then I will try that.

If that doesn't work, I will test current and report back.

THANKS!!!!

 

[DocPhilMD]

Can I ask a question? Does it matter if the voltage isn't exactly 120v? The DMM sometimes reads a bit over like 121 or 122. Is that normal?

Is that just fluctuation of the DMM?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Can I ask a question? Does it matter if the voltage isn't exactly 120v? The DMM sometimes reads a bit over like 121 or 122. Is that normal?

Is that just fluctuation of the DMM?

Thats normal,I can go in a mile radius of where Im sitting and get anywhere from 116-126 volts with the same meter depending on whos house Im checking at and how close they are to a substation.
With that setting all you have to do is listen for the buzz to make it easy for now.

 

[Dustball]

Reminder- breaker off when you're ohming the wires.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Thats normal,I can go in a mile radius of where Im sitting and get anywhere from 116-126 volts with the same meter depending on whos house Im checking at and how close they are to a substation.
With that setting all you have to do is listen for the buzz to make it easy for now.

Reminder- breaker off when you're ohming the wires.

Okay. I ohmed the wires and nothing. I even tested the DMM on a metal object to make sure it works. Nothing.

thank you for the reminder. Never hurts to remind!!!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Reminder- breaker off when you're ohming the wires.

I told him to unhook them from the load side of the gfi while doing it to make sure its isolated from rest of the circuit.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Okay. I ohmed the wires and nothing. I even tested the DMM on a metal object to make sure it works. Nothing.

thank you for the reminder. Never hurts to remind!!!

Did it buzz when you touched the leads together?