13 mm wrench test
- Thread starter Miskin
- Start date
Haven´t got a Snap on...my only ½" wrenches are a Kingchrome combination and a Facom ½" / 9/16" flexhead - but ½" is always 12,7 mm on my calculator...
N.I.
Well-known member
Miskin, seeing that you have access to a hardness tester, could you possibly test an assortment of cheapy Chinese wrenches. Just for the hell of it, you know the whole set for a fiver type.
You can compensate for **** steel by tempering it less - i.e. a high hardness.
I find that you get the soft as butter ones or real brittle ones. But the hardness may vary all over the place due to lack of quality control
Or ..............,
Monte could send you his whole 13mm wrench collection for you to test. I bet the small dimple wouldn't worry him
BTW, does the thickness of the chrome plating effect the measured hardness?
You can compensate for **** steel by tempering it less - i.e. a high hardness.
I find that you get the soft as butter ones or real brittle ones. But the hardness may vary all over the place due to lack of quality control
Or ..............,
Monte could send you his whole 13mm wrench collection for you to test. I bet the small dimple wouldn't worry him
BTW, does the thickness of the chrome plating effect the measured hardness?
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Josiah_db
Well-known member
I'd be interested on how strong the 1b gedore wrenches are
Or ..............,
Monte could send you his whole 13mm wrench collection for you to test. I bet the small dimple wouldn't worry him
I have some bolts in a similar situation. What happens is the curve of the wrench contacts the wall and added force pushes the wrench out so the contact area on the bolt is less.
Even the tninest wall box end you can find is too thick ? Could a square headed bolt be substituted ?
Even the tninest wall box end you can find is too thick ? Could a square headed bolt be substituted ?
A double nut where the arrow point? No space, plus that the thread has a
swell from tiding forces as you can see.
View media item 30745
Miskin, seeing that you have access to a hardness tester, could you possibly test an assortment of cheapy Chinese wrenches. Just for the hell of it, you know the whole set for a fiver type.
You can compensate for **** steel by tempering it less - i.e. a high hardness.
I find that you get the soft as butter ones or real brittle ones. But the hardness may vary all over the place due to lack of quality control
Or ..............,
Monte could send you his whole 13mm wrench collection for you to test. I bet the small dimple wouldn't worry him
BTW, does the thickness of the chrome plating effect the measured hardness?
I don't have any cheapy chinese wrench but i have IUS, Izeltas, HR (India) and many soviet and Russian. I have to buy some PRC wrenches
I don't know about chrome plating and the effect in measurement. Will see in the future.
Me too. I will find out.
I can make a hardened square bolt. In fact we have lost some bolts during work and need replacement.
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which 13mm wrench collection ??? you've mixed me up with someone else !Monte could send you his whole 13mm wrench collection for you to test. I bet the small dimple wouldn't worry him
N.I.
Well-known member
which 13mm wrench collection ??? you've mixed me up with someone else !
Ahh that explains why this 'Monte' fella is soo knowedgable on all things German.
I reckon that 'Monte' is more than one person and you are really a sales corporation promoting exports for the German tool industry
AmericanPreferred
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Very interesting thread, thanks for posting. My 1/2" Snap On #OEX16B measures 12.89mm. Looking at the wrench that came with the machine it appears not much torque is required. Be nice if you could find a double open end like it with both ends 13mm. I have seen such wrenchs with one end standard 15 degree the other end between 60, and 90 degrees. I measured a few other brands I have and the Snap On is the smallest. The others Blackhawks, BW1162, BW1162H, And an old, and new Craftsman 44695 raised panel all US made, they were all between 12.95 and 13.03mm.
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Thanks for the infos. I think i can manage to fit the 1/2" Snap On to the screw.
Ahh that explains why this 'Monte' fella is soo knowedgable on all things German.
I reckon that 'Monte' is more than one person and you are really a sales corporation promoting exports for the German tool industry
you got us regards,
Monte
German Tool Ministry
Wangstang
Well-known member
Interesting project you have here!
In the context of these comments...
Call me crazy, but at some point, you have to step back and ask which is cheaper...
Replacing a 13mm wrench that can be found at several local stores every one to two months and having effectivly no wear on an uber specialty fastener, most likely an expensive one, that you'd probably have to spend a week tracking down and getting it delivered to you for a nice little sum of cash if you had to replace it.
....or....
Finding a wrench that you'll never have to replace but then having the uber specialty fastener, most likely an expensive one, that you'd probably have to spend a week tracking down and getting it delivered to you for a nice little sum of cash if you had to replace it. Not to mention the lost down time at the machine station while you wait on the fastenter.
Seems like the latter would be a major concern if your coworkers happend to find said indestructable wrench, or paid enough attention to yours one day and went out and bought there own.
Have you considered contacting ARP fasteners, here in the USA, with the bolt specs and seeing if they can provide you with a reduced head size 12 point fastener that you could put a 12pt box end wrench on?
http://arp-bolts.com/
Wes
In the context of these comments...
These wrenches are used by many workers, who have no 'tool education'.
For example, the GEDORE i work with it the most of the time. It was okey. Then a co-worker destroyed it in one week.
What surprises me the most are that the bolts are harder than the wrenches. I always thought it was the other way around.
Call me crazy, but at some point, you have to step back and ask which is cheaper...
Replacing a 13mm wrench that can be found at several local stores every one to two months and having effectivly no wear on an uber specialty fastener, most likely an expensive one, that you'd probably have to spend a week tracking down and getting it delivered to you for a nice little sum of cash if you had to replace it.
....or....
Finding a wrench that you'll never have to replace but then having the uber specialty fastener, most likely an expensive one, that you'd probably have to spend a week tracking down and getting it delivered to you for a nice little sum of cash if you had to replace it. Not to mention the lost down time at the machine station while you wait on the fastenter.
Seems like the latter would be a major concern if your coworkers happend to find said indestructable wrench, or paid enough attention to yours one day and went out and bought there own.
Have you considered contacting ARP fasteners, here in the USA, with the bolt specs and seeing if they can provide you with a reduced head size 12 point fastener that you could put a 12pt box end wrench on?
http://arp-bolts.com/
Wes
AmericanPreferred
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If you will notice the pictures, there is no way a box end anything is ever going to work. The bolts screw out of the block they are threaded into to hold the tool with the back of their heads. It does seem like a prime location for a jam nut, but no room for that either. I don't see what locks the fastener in place, which may explain the over-tightening.
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AmericanPreferred
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The workpeice turns right? The tool only moves when the tool head changes position, or the bolts come loss, I think?
Yes, "turning tool" describes the tool itself, as it is a lathe tool, you use it while "turning" a object.
Like turning chisels for woodworking on a woodworking lathe. Same thing.
The tool itself should never actually do any turning of it's own when held down by the screws (excluding live axis heads). As it means there is something wrong.
Dimitri
Like turning chisels for woodworking on a woodworking lathe. Same thing.
The tool itself should never actually do any turning of it's own when held down by the screws (excluding live axis heads). As it means there is something wrong.
Dimitri
AmericanPreferred
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I am assuming the tool-head that hold those turning tools holds several different profiled tools and shifts from position to position pretty fast. Seems it would be fairly easy for the tool to slide being held only by those 2 bolt heads given the stresses involved. I feel I could move the tool with a hammer even when its tightened up. I have seen positive locking devices on much less critical applications.
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these may be thin enough for use there.
otherwise
just keep looking, something like a pipewrench style open end like this
may just do it. something that closes harder, the harder you pull, as opposed to hoping that metal doesn't give way first when it rounds out the first time.
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Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
N.I. made the best point. European open end wrenches tend to have very thin heads. Not sure why, but even the large sizes are quite thin. You need something to carry the load, like the original wrench, but better. The Gedore spanner has a much thicker jaw on it, and should do a much better job of loosening and tightening the fastener. Every one you have shown, has a thin jaw.
As someone noted, a torque wrench, the type that uses replaceable heads, would be ideal. One that cannot be adjusted by anyone but the calibration room would be great.
The pic below is a US manufacturer, Sturtevant-Richmont, but Gedore and Stahwillie also make similar tools.
Charles
As someone noted, a torque wrench, the type that uses replaceable heads, would be ideal. One that cannot be adjusted by anyone but the calibration room would be great.
The pic below is a US manufacturer, Sturtevant-Richmont, but Gedore and Stahwillie also make similar tools.
Charles
Wangstang
Well-known member
Humm...looking the photos over one more time....
From the other photos posted I assumed that the tooling was attached by a combination of alignment and bolting on with holes on the outer edge of the machine face, along with the bolts in question capturing the tooling in a clamping fashion and aligning through the slots in the machine face.
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My inital impression of the above photo as that the tooling for the slot above this set of bolts had already been attached and that the bolts in question were about to be tightened down as the next piece of tooling was put in place.
View media item 28139
But the above image appears that it could be showing the bolt heads being used as a ram bolt, pushing up on the tooling, effectively pining the tooling to the machine face above the corresponding bolts. If that's the case, it seems kind of odd to have tooling held in with a friction load vs a bolt through a slot or hole in the tooling that would allow you to clamp the tooling down with a bolt. Clearly it works though if that is how the tooling is designed.
If my intial assumption was right, then see the below info. If it was wrong, then don't waste your time.
ARP could provide you with an equally strong or stronger bolt that uses a head flange of 13mm but would have 10mm sized 12pt head. With the reduced sized head you could fit a 12pt box end wench over the fastener but the 13mm head flange would allow the fastener to impart the same claming force.
For example...
Here is a standard full size head with a full size flange:
Here are two full size flange bolts with reduced size heads:
Make sense?
Good luck,
Wes
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Why dont you let the people that make the machine know that there is a flaw in their design. You cannot take the tooling on and off without breaking all of your wrenches. They should address the fault in their design. It looks like you paid a lot for that machine and it appears it has a flaw.
Now that said, If you dont want to contact them, then I'd just keep a bunch of 13mms around for when the next one breaks. I can't invest that kind of time into a wrench. All that testing you did, the hardness of the bolt is what the people who made the machine should be doing to make you a wrench for this specific application.
Now that said, If you dont want to contact them, then I'd just keep a bunch of 13mms around for when the next one breaks. I can't invest that kind of time into a wrench. All that testing you did, the hardness of the bolt is what the people who made the machine should be doing to make you a wrench for this specific application.
@lok
I've already bought it
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@Wangstang
The shipping costs from USA to Greece exceed the cost of the screw itself. Among other things, do not forget that we are a CNC workshop. We manufacture spare parts for ship's engines, so a screw is piece of cake....
The wrench also is able to manufacture but i leave it for the end...
@Kracin
As i told before there no space behind screw's head to work with a wrench which "hugs" the head. The second pic is factional but when i asked the Gedore dealer for something like that, he told me that this kind of wrenches does not withstands too much torque. It's a pipewrench.
@Charles
I think you and N.I. are right. I will test a Matador No190 which its open end is 6mm thick
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@bran1har
This kind of lathe mill have been discontinued (I almost certain, but maybe i'm wrong). Okuma uses many kind of mills with quicker systems. My employer bought a new CNC with an old mill.
@georgy
No, not yet. Facom.... too shiny to destroyed
But i would like to measure its hardness, especially compared with an old Facom made in France.
I've already bought it
View media item 30918
@Wangstang
The shipping costs from USA to Greece exceed the cost of the screw itself. Among other things, do not forget that we are a CNC workshop. We manufacture spare parts for ship's engines, so a screw is piece of cake....
The wrench also is able to manufacture but i leave it for the end...
@Kracin
As i told before there no space behind screw's head to work with a wrench which "hugs" the head. The second pic is factional but when i asked the Gedore dealer for something like that, he told me that this kind of wrenches does not withstands too much torque. It's a pipewrench.
@Charles
I think you and N.I. are right. I will test a Matador No190 which its open end is 6mm thick
View media item 30913
@bran1har
This kind of lathe mill have been discontinued (I almost certain, but maybe i'm wrong). Okuma uses many kind of mills with quicker systems. My employer bought a new CNC with an old mill.
@georgy
No, not yet. Facom.... too shiny to destroyed
But i would like to measure its hardness, especially compared with an old Facom made in France.
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helterskelter
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Guys it's not a flaw in the machine design and it's not the fault of the operator. Those bolts secure the cutting tools. Standard torque for lathe tools (especially on a CNC lathe) is damn near as tight as you can get them. If a tool comes loose it can make a mess in a hurry. Wrenches are cheap in comparison. A very high quality wrench might last longer but no wrench is going to last forever in that environment. Just toss them and buy another.
Miskin
how about a shot of the gap between the bolt and the machine part? or a measurement of how much gap there is?
in any case if you cant get these to work, then why not just buy a small pipe wrench for the final torque, if the bolt is indeed harder than the pipe wrench jaws then they will bite and grab and won't mar the bolt either.
how about a shot of the gap between the bolt and the machine part? or a measurement of how much gap there is?
in any case if you cant get these to work, then why not just buy a small pipe wrench for the final torque, if the bolt is indeed harder than the pipe wrench jaws then they will bite and grab and won't mar the bolt either.
Gedore dealer refuse to replace the damaged No7. I dunno about Facom dealer.@ Miskin
I would try a Facom wrench if I were you, since you are into this kind of testing. They also have lifetime guarantee so you will get another one for free when you damage it
The gap is 5 mm wide.
