13 mm wrench test

[Miskin]

I 'm a CNC programmer and operator. We have this CNC lathe from OKUMA.

(internet pic)


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The tools on the lathe mill held with two hardened screws

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View media item 28139The constant problem we have is that the wrenches we use not withstand the constant use.
This gave me an idea. Why not test some wrenches on these bolts? Ok but we need to measure the hardness of bolts and wrenches.
No problem!

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View media item 30691We measure the bolts and some wrenches (Rockwell measurement). Unfortunately it's very difficult to find a USA made wrench here in Greece,
so only wrenches from the Old World (for now).

Bolts: 51 HRC
MATADOR: 41 HRC
PROXXON: 45 HRC
ACESA: 32 HRC
GEDORE: 40 HRC
GARANT: 41 HRC
STAHLWILLE: 47 HRC
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The lathe came from Japan with this wrench for the job

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DIN 894. Didn't stand a chance!

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We have allready use the ACESA

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The open end stretched. Too soft.

 

[Miskin]

The GEDORE No7

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As you can see it's very worn, but the open end not stretched.
In this point i must note that you can't work with the box end on these bolts as you can see in the first post.

 

[rick carpenter]

It's time to make your own wrench!

 

[KoJo]

I know Mac and Snap-on has a division in Europe. Mainly in the UK and Germany.

 

[egnorant]

You might try a flare nut wrench. Extra beef on the open end could help.
Might even try a 1/2" wrench as it is only slightly smaller and may provide a tighter grip.

Bruce

 

[Miskin]

@rick carpenter
We don't have the way to harden the steel with accuracy (in my work). Need to
send it outside to the guy who do these kind of work. Maybe do that some time.
@Kojo
I knew that but the shipping fees for one wrench are too much. I 'll see what i can do to the future. Until then we have many manufacturers here in the Old World (not in Greece though, only beaches and debts )

Next rebranded Stahlwille from GARANT.

Pic tomorrow. I forget to shoot one, but the conclusion is the same with GEDORE. Worn but not streched, not useless.

 

[Miskin]

You might try a flare nut wrench. Extra beef on the open end could help.
Might even try a 1/2" wrench as it is only slightly smaller and may provide a tighter grip.

Bruce

flare nut wrench too thick. I check the dimensions and it won't fit. I didn't think that with the 1/2". Good idea! I will try it.

 

[Dave455]

Interesting!

I would say from the outset that all the damage to your wrenches appears to be in a small area. This would suggest that the wrenches were being used without being fully engaged. Any wrench, but particularly an open ender, WILL either be damaged, or will damage the fastener if force is applied before the wrench is pushed all the way on to the fastener, and all the way down/up as appropriate!

Machine tools do generally have hard fasteners, the type generally used in the motor trade will not withstand repeated loosening and re tightening, and repeated use of the same wrench, day in day out, is a tough test that most lower quality wrenches will fail! Having said that, I believe that any top quality wrench (Snap On, Stahlwille, Hazet, Nepros) used correctly (I.e. fully engaged) will have considerably more life than you have been experiencing!

I have been using the same British made open end wrench to change lathe chucks on one of my machines for 20 years plus!

 

[Miskin]

Next a little friend from Taiwan. PROXXON.

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I don't like Proxxon either finish or quality, but because of the high HRC,
make this wrench the right tool for the job, i think. Not big issues with worn or
accuracy of open end. I still work with the PROXXON for a month now.
The previous wrenches to two months at most replaced.

 

[N.I.]

Brilliant thread. There are not enough factual comparisons on this forum.

You need as thick a wrench as possible to spread the pressure, similar to the one that came with the lathe but better quality.

Gedore make this type which might hold up better-

I would also be interested in how Stahlwille fare. They claim that their tools are specifically designed to cope with the high hardness of Titanium Aerospace fasteners (also Cadmium free).

 

[Miskin]

Interesting!

I would say from the outset that all the damage to your wrenches appears to be in a small area. This would suggest that the wrenches were being used without being fully engaged. Any wrench, but particularly an open ender, WILL either be damaged, or will damage the fastener if force is applied before the wrench is pushed all the way on to the fastener, and all the way down/up as appropriate!

Machine tools do generally have hard fasteners, the type generally used in the motor trade will not withstand repeated loosening and re tightening, and repeated use of the same wrench, day in day out, is a tough test that most lower quality wrenches will fail! Having said that, I believe that any top quality wrench (Snap On, Stahlwille, Hazet, Nepros) used correctly (I.e. fully engaged) will have considerably more life than you have been experiencing!

I have been using the same British made open end wrench to change lathe chucks on one of my machines for 20 years plus!

These wrenches are used by many workers, who have no 'tool education'.
For example, the GEDORE i work with it the most of the time. It was okey. Then a co-worker destroyed it in one week.

 

[Miskin]

Brilliant thread. There are not enough factual comparisons on this forum.

You need as thick a wrench as possible to spread the pressure, similar to the one that came with the lathe but better quality.

Gedore make this type which might hold up better-

I would also be interested in how Stahlwille fare. They claim that their tools are specifically designed to cope with the high hardness of Titanium Aerospace fasteners (also Cadmium free).

You are right. So the next few months we 'll work with MATADOR and STAHLWILLE OPEN BOX 13. I don't yet measure the hardness on STAHLWILLE.

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I 'm waiting a WISENT from ebay.de to make the measure for both of them.
I think a GEDORE No6 13x17 would be more suitable.

 

[X1 Mike]

I come in the camp of making one, experiment with different materials and hardening it. I made a great spindle nut wrench for a Parker Majestic surface grinder out of O1 and it lasted me years and I actually passed it down to another guy amnd it works for him.

 

[Dave455]

These wrenches are used by many workers, who have no 'tool education'.
For example, the GEDORE i work with it the most of the time. It was okey. Then a co-worker destroyed it in one week.

Then you probably need to educate your co workers rather than buy more wrenches!!

Best solution, buy your own wrench, but don't lend it out!

Trouble is, you start out buying one wrench.... !

 

[Miskin]

Then you probably need to educate your co workers rather than buy more wrenches!!

Best solution, buy your own wrench, but don't lend it out!

Trouble is, you start out buying one wrench.... !

I'm doing that for fun!

 

[Dimitri]

You should try grinding the top surface off the wrenches carefully. Without overheating it.

The depth of hardness may change, which changes the elastic limits of the wrenches.

Dimitri

 

[Miskin]

You should try grinding the top surface off the wrenches carefully. Without overheating it.

The depth of hardness may change, which changes the elastic limits of the wrenches.

Dimitri

For what cause? Make it harder? I'm not looking to find a solution to this. I'm only checking the limits of some tools. This is employer 's problem. In Greece employees do not have to bring their own tools to work. Tools providing by the employer. As i say before i'm just curious.

 

[Dimitri]

If your wrench is very soft in the inside, no thin hard layer of surface will prevent the wrench from deforming over time.

Think of a nice piece of spanakopita, the shell is hard, but you can still easily flex it because the soft spinach and cheese filling gives way for the shell to break apart.

But if you bake a loaf of bread that is thick, without yeast, the break doesn't want to flex and break inwards.

Dimitri

 

[mrbreezeet1]

finding a good one and keeping it locked up is the best thing.
Teaching the other workers is OK, but some people never get it.

 

[Outlawmws]

Maybe you need to get a torque wrench setup so the other workers (I almost said something else...) don't over tighten?

I like the thicker Iron worker wrench as a possible solution.

Another is to shorten the wrench, (particularly the iron worker wrench) so they simply can't pull harder...

 

[Miskin]

If your wrench is very soft in the inside, no thin hard layer of surface will prevent the wrench from deforming over time.

Think of a nice piece of spanakopita, the shell is hard, but you can still easily flex it because the soft spinach and cheese filling gives way for the shell to break apart.

But if you bake a loaf of bread that is thick, without yeast, the break doesn't want to flex and break inwards.

Dimitri

Ok now i'm confused
I don't like grinding fine German (and other) tools...only abuse them

finding a good one and keeping it locked up is the best thing.
Teaching the other workers is OK, but some people never get it.

 

[Dimitri]

Ok now i'm confused

Κάτι μαλακό στο εσωτερικό θα λυγίσει, ακόμη και εάν στο εξωτερικό είναι σκληρός.

Ή όταν σκληρή στο εσωτερικό, και σκληρά στο εξωτερικό, δεν θα καταστραφεί εύκολα.

I don't like grinding fine German (and other) tools...only abuse them

PS. My apologies if my Greek is just as confusing. I don't tend to have to explain technical things in Greek all that often.

Dimitri

 

[Miskin]

Maybe you need to get a torque wrench setup so the other workers (I almost said something else...) don't over tighten?

I like the thicker Iron worker wrench as a possible solution.

Another is to shorten the wrench, (particularly the iron worker wrench) so they simply can't pull harder...

I totally agree with you. I'm planning to use a GEDORE No6 13x17 with 6mm thickness on the 13mm open end.

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or GEDORE 1B 13mm

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[Miskin]

Κάτι μαλακό στο εσωτερικό θα λυγίσει, ακόμη και εάν στο εξωτερικό είναι σκληρός.

Ή όταν σκληρή στο εσωτερικό, και σκληρά στο εξωτερικό, δεν θα καταστραφεί εύκολα.





PS. My apologies if my Greek is just as confusing. I don't tend to have to explain technical things in Greek all that often.

Dimitri

Ok i understand what you trying to say, but why grinding? oxygen and acetylene are better. Overheating a little bit and then throw the wrench into a can of old oil. And you have a harder wrench which brakes very easy...

 

[losabio]

How about one of the extra thick Snap-on flare/open combos? It looks like the 13mm version is 9mm thick!

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item..._ID=633663&group_ID=675033&store=&dir=catalog

 

[Dimitri]

No, so that you can test the hardness under the surface. You want to remove the surface that may have been induction hardened slightly, and/or due to the hardness of the chrome surface, and want to see what the metal core's hardness is.

You lightly grind it off to prevent heating (and possible change in hardness) then test for hardness again.

While the GARANT and MATADOR may be both 41HRC, the insides may be different.

Dimitri

 

[Monte]

Hazet 600N or Stahlwille Open Box 14 have thicker open ends....maybe these....if they don´t work nothing will work

 

[garthg]

Ooh, I'm dying for OP to test some Harbor Freight wrenches. Will someone please send him some?

 

[MikeF2316]

Ooh, I'm dying for OP to test some Harbor Freight wrenches. Will someone please send him some?

My thoughts exactly. Next GJ member going to Greece needs to take a selection of New World 13 mm wrenches.

 

[CWP1616L]

Bolts: 51 HRC
MATADOR: 41 HRC
PROXXON: 45 HRC
ACESA: 32 HRC
GEDORE: 40 HRC
GARANT: 41 HRC

What surprises me the most are that the bolts are harder than the wrenches. I always thought it was the other way around.

 

[Jason280]

Good point!

Interestingly enough, every ratcheting wrench I've had to warranty has been a 13mm. I've had three of them fail, a Snap On, a Kobalt, and a Gearwrench, and every one has been a 13mm.

 

[Tribalvision]

since there is initial clearance to get a box wrench on the bolt, couldnt you get 2 gearwrenches and just leave one on each bolt?

 

[Dimitri]

since there is initial clearance to get a box wrench on the bolt, couldnt you get 2 gearwrenches and just leave one on each bolt?

Wont work ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MwgobIVj4fU#t=38s

The tool changer spins around and gets awfully close to the spindle/chuck.

Dimitri

 

[Miskin]

since there is initial clearance to get a box wrench on the bolt, couldnt you get 2 gearwrenches and just leave one on each bolt?

This is very dangerous!!

 

[Miskin]

What surprises me the most are that the bolts are harder than the wrenches. I always thought it was the other way around.

They ´re not common bolts. They ´re holding lathe tools with their 'heads' as you can see in the pics. That's why the head of the bolt is hardened.

 

[chris142]

Id sure like to see how wrll some so,mac,cornwell etc wrenches hold up. I have an older matco line wrench that's very thick on the open end and I bet it would hold up well

 

[Miskin]

Hazet 600N or Stahlwille Open Box 14 have thicker open ends....maybe these....if they don´t work nothing will work

Monte my 13 mm 600N is part of a set and i don´t like to see it damaged. Stahlwille is difficult to purchase in Greece. Only Hofmann local dealer have them but you can´t order just one wrench. My only option ebay.de.

Ooh, I'm dying for OP to test some Harbor Freight wrenches. Will someone please send him some?

It's better to take your tools, come to Greece and as i test them, you lying on the beach!

Id sure like to see how wrll some so,mac,cornwell etc wrenches hold up. I have an older matco line wrench that's very thick on the open end and I bet it would hold up well

The only wrench from overseas i own is a Cobalt ratcheting wrench. But it is made in Taiwan

 

[jteck75]

I'm an industrial maintenance tech,at a former employer I worked on Okuma slant bed lathes,that were pretty much the same as these except an older series. And yes those bolts are incredibly hard,as well they should be for the enviroment they are working in. I used a Snap On 13mm on all of my tool holder changes,never had a faliure. Also note that I shot the bolts with penetrating oil before I tried to break them loose. The fine metal chip particles mixed with synthetic coolant can get down into threads and act just like loc-tite. As was mentioned earlier,having the wrench flats fully engaged on the bolt is critical to tool life. Just my $.002,good luck to you!!

 

[Roverbo]

You might try a flare nut wrench. Extra beef on the open end could help.
Might even try a 1/2" wrench as it is only slightly smaller and may provide a tighter grip.

Bruce

+1 to this...
Find a ½" wrench and gently - gently - file/polish (without the wrench getting hot) it to a perfect fit...a tight grip is the step forward...

 

[Miskin]

@jteck75
thanks for your post! Very helpful.

@Roverbo
I will start looking to ebay for a 1/2 " Snap on wrench with low shipping costs to Greece!
I think always try to find reasons to buy tools.

How much mm a 1/2 Snap on open end measure?