2 hots and 1 neutral?

[tipsy]

Existing 220 circuit for an a/c unit in the breezeway. Want to take out the 220 breaker and replace with two 20 amp breakers and then replace the 220 receptacle with a 110 outlet. Split it by removing the hot tab but my question is can I use the one neutral for both sides?


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[alfredeneuman]

Just leave the breaker as is. In fact it's a Code requirement.
Just wire the receptacle, break out the tab on the hot side, and you're good to go.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hold up.

Does this existing circuit have 3 or 4-wires?

Assuming 3 since its a 240v circuit, then you cant do what you want as you have no neutral.

A 240v circuit does not have a neutral. It has 2 hots and a ground wire/EGC.

For a MWBC/multi-wire branch circuit, you need 2 hots, neutral AND ground.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The title of the thread was "2 hots and 1 neutral"

 

[mbear]

It was a valid question .

 

[alfredeneuman]

The NEC doesn't see it that way:
Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.

The grounding wire isn't even mentioned, but of course it should be there.
They must have figured that was a given

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The NEC doesn't see it that way:
Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.

The grounding wire isn't even mentioned, but of course it should be there.
They must have figured that was a given

Sure and how many people interchange neutral and ground?

This circuit feeding the A/C unit could have a bare wire for the EGC and he is just calling it a neutral. That obviously cant be used as a neutral.

In these types of situations with little info and the knowledge of the OP being unknown, best to ask questions.

 

[Rock knocker]

The grounding wire isn't even mentioned, but of course it should be there.
They must have figured that was a given

The ground wire isn't mentioned because it isn't strictly required, just a path to ground via a wire or conduit.

 

[alfredeneuman]

just a path to ground via a wire or conduit.

If you read closely the definition, that's not even required to qualify as a MWBC

 

[tipsy]

Ok all good input. I’ll be looking at this setup this week and will report back for further info.


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[Zeke]

Why do you need 2 circuits to that one outlet? Trace one of the black hots and wrap it white, call it your neutral and make the existing white (if it is) a green and use that as your EGC. Then you have a spare breaker for a circuit for somewhere else (assuming you can pull wire to where you'd like).

 

[ard]

^ My thought as well.

Also....can OP install a 15A receptacle on the end of a dedicated 20A circuit? Even a 15A/20A 'dual rated outlet' might not be code, since it is a single outlet. (and not a string of receptacles).

Not that Id be overly worried, but from a code perspective....

 

[Jim greengo]

^ My thought as well.

Also....can OP install a 15A receptacle on the end of a dedicated 20A circuit? Even a 15A/20A 'dual rated outlet' might not be code, since it is a single outlet. (and not a string of receptacles).

Not that Id be overly worried, but from a code perspective....

Not if it's the only outlet on the circuit,unless something has changed.

 

[Bert_]

There is a lot of assumptions in this thread...

We need to know how many insulated wires are at this 240V outlet.

I would guess this has a 2 wire w/ground NM, again assuming.

^ My thought as well.

Also....can OP install a 15A receptacle on the end of a dedicated 20A circuit? Even a 15A/20A 'dual rated outlet' might not be code, since it is a single outlet. (and not a string of receptacles).

Not that Id be overly worried, but from a code perspective....

A 20A single outlet would be fine at the end of a 20A circuit. Not sure why you think it wouldn't?

Also one 15A duplex receptacle is actually (2) receptacles and is also fine as the only thing on a 20A circuit.

The only thing not allowed would be (1) 15A single receptacle. Any other receptacle or combination is fine.

 

[ard]

There is a lot of assumptions in this thread...

Agree

A 20A single outlet would be fine at the end of a 20A circuit. Not sure why you think it wouldn't?

Sure would. never said it wasnt. A 15 wouldnt.

Also one 15A duplex receptacle is actually (2) receptacles and is also fine as the only thing on a 20A circuit.

OP is talking about dividing a duplex into two singles, correct? Or are you responding to something else?

The only thing not allowed would be (1) 15A single receptacle. Any other receptacle or combination is fine.

So a duplex with a 15/20A dual amperage plug config but divided into two circuits is...OK?

 

[The FIB]

The title of the thread was "2 hots and 1 neutral"

He is from North East Illinois, most likely his circuit is in conduit serving as his ground, that's probably why he didn't mention a ground wire.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The OP was here yesterday, and could have cleared the whole "assumptions" thing up once and for all....but didn't.

 

[Falcon67]

The title of the thread was "2 hots and 1 neutral"

Beats two neutrals and one hot

 

[Bert_]

OP is talking about dividing a duplex into two singles, correct? Or are you responding to something else?
Just a general reminder. Many people think of a duplex as one outlet when it is really two.


So a duplex with a 15/20A dual amperage plug config but divided into two circuits is...OK?

I guess I'm not following you 100%. All 20a receptacles will also accept 15a plugs. It's still a 20 rated receptacle.

 

[exranger06]

The OP was here yesterday, and could have cleared the whole "assumptions" thing up once and for all....but didn't.

He said he was going to take another look at the wiring "this week" and will give an update. It's extremely possible and likely he doesn't remember the colors of all of the wires at the outlet, and also extremely likely he doesn't have time to check it out immediately. Just chill out until he gets a chance to have another look.

 

[sberry]

Meanwhile,,,,,, carry on.

 

[tipsy]

Sorry guys. Had the flu for several days too.
Anyway, I have not seen this yet. My customer described it to me. I will see it sometime this week.
I need two “dedicated 20 amp circuits” for a treadmill and some other piece of sports equipment like a stepper or bike or something. I don’t remember exactly what.
Anyway, I’ll get back to you when I know more.
Thanks


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[wyliesdiesels]

Your customer??

 

[Dagny]

I don't think your supposed to re-identify 12 ga. wires.

 

[Zeke]

I don't think your supposed to re-identify 12 ga. wires.

Where'd you hear that? It's been done with switch legs for ages. Maybe re-identifying a conductor to an EGC but I think you could strip that back to where it entered the box and make sure that everyone understands what that wire does.

IDK, experts?

 

[Norcal]

Where'd you hear that? It's been done with switch legs for ages. Maybe re-identifying a conductor to an EGC but I think you could strip that back to where it entered the box and make sure that everyone understands what that wire does.

IDK, experts?

If it’s part of a cable assembly then in most cases it can be re identified but individual conductors cannot.

 

[tipsy]

Yes, customer. I’m a Handyman


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[Bert_]

Yes, customer. I’m a Handyman


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You got an electrical license?

 

[sanddan]

 

[PWC Repair]

Well, i can tell you for a fact with 2 hots and a true ground as out in my well house, you can not get 110 volts no matter where you try to hook up. MUST have a neutral for 110v.

 

[TomC750]

You got an electrical license?

I have heard this before. It assumes there is a license requirement in whatever jurisdiction he is in. I never had one as I never worked where one was required.

 

[Bert_]

I have heard this before. It assumes there is a license requirement in whatever jurisdiction he is in. I never had one as I never worked where one was required.

Ok maybe I should ask if the OP is competent in electrical work? Asking for what seems like simple advise on a diy forum makes me wonder.

Asking about a license was the wrong question.
I know a few people with no electrical license who can do good work. I also know a few guy who do have a license but aren't competent at anything other than bending pipe.

 

[Jim greengo]

Ok maybe I should ask if the OP is competent in electrical work? Asking for what seems like simple advise on a diy forum makes me wonder.

Asking about a license was the wrong question.
I know a few people with no electrical license who can do good work. I also know a few guy who do have a license but aren't competent at anything other than bending pipe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok maybe I should ask if the OP is competent in electrical work? Asking for what seems like simple advise on a diy forum makes me wonder.

Asking about a license was the wrong question.
I know a few people with no electrical license who can do good work. I also know a few guy who do have a license but aren't competent at anything other than bending pipe.

yeah a license doesnt mean sh*t.

i used to work for a licensed C10 electrical contractor who didnt know the difference between neutral and ground/EGC and why "both were ran because they both go to the same bar."

*facepalm*

had to educate him... smh

 

[Jim greengo]

yeah a license doesnt mean sh*t.

i used to work for a licensed C10 electrical contractor who didnt know the difference between neutral and ground/EGC and why "both were ran because they both go to the same bar."

*facepalm*

had to educate him... smh

I met a city electrical inspector in Carter lake Iowa around 20 years ago that didnt know what a gfi was,hes been gone a while fortunately.
Yes,they're out there among us.

 

[tipsy]

I thought this was a simple question, maybe not. Can two hots from two separate circuits, share a neutral wire? Or does each hot require its own neutral wire back to the panel?


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[tipsy]

So I’ve been to the house and seen the situation. 10-3 w/o ground is in use. Just wondering as I mentioned above. Can each of those hots share the one neutral. Each hot would be on its own dedicated circuit breaker.


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[wyliesdiesels]

I thought this was a simple question, maybe not. Can two hots from two separate circuits, share a neutral wire? Or does each hot require its own neutral wire back to the panel?


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yes they can as long as the 2 hots are from opposite phases. this is to prevent overloading of the neutral.

You will need to use handle tied breakers.

however, read below....

So I’ve been to the house and seen the situation. 10-3 w/o ground is in use. Just wondering as I mentioned above. Can each of those hots share the one neutral. Each hot would be on its own dedicated circuit breaker.


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since you do not have a 4th wire for ground, this wire/circuit is not usable for what you want to do. You cannot put a grounded outlet on a non grounded circuit.

And since this is for grounded equipment(assuming), it most definitely should be on a grounded circuit.

The only saving grace would be if the wire is ran in conduit which is doubtful since its old NM cable....

 

[nsula_country]

But... Can't a GFCI be used in this situation? Well, 2 GFCI's.

Can GFCI's use a shared neutral?

Can you MWBC w/o a ground/EGC if each phase has a GFCI?

My understanding is that if existing wiring is L-N (2 blade receptacle) that a GFCI can be used to add ground fault capability. Though, not to downstream receptacles...

I may be WAY off base. Majority of my experience is all Industrial electrical...

CT

 

[alfredeneuman]

Can't a GFCI be used in this situation? Well, 2 GFCI's.

No. That rule is only for extending existing ungrounded 120 volt circuits only.
Since he's planning on making the existing 240 circuit into 2 - 120 volt, it doesn't apply.