20 amp receptacles?

[rlitman]

ummm spec grade has never been the cheap bulk ones.... spec grade is a step up from the cheapo ones.

ummm youre mixing up the push-wire terminal on the back of the receptacle with the retention strength of the tangs in the front of the receptacle. 2 different things on a receptacle. not sure why youre comparing them...

BTW the push-wire terminals ARE dangerous. they cause fires due to that spring loosening up....

I'm not sure how you got either of those interpretations from my posts, so let's try again.
30+ years ago, bulk outlets were dangerous ****. They had brittle face plates that could fall off and terminal screws with a flat surface under the head that pushed wires out, among many other fatal flaws. I'd seen way too many outlets exposing their live guts when a face plate ripped off or snapped after someone carelessly pulled out a plug by tugging on a cord.

The spec grade outlets I was buying at the time (30 or more years ago) had unbreakable face plates that were permanently riveted onto a solid steel backstrap that connected to an embedded nut which better grounded the plate cover, and they had screws with vaulted square washers that did an excellent job of securing straight in wires.

Today, even the cheapest of outlets have terminal screws with a cupped profile under the head that pulls your wire in securely, and they all have unbreakable faceplates that are generally welded on ultrasonically.

What better outlets still lack are better plug terminals parts. I'm NOT talking about back-stabbing, which I'll leave to the PVC air line people. I'm talking about cheaping out on brass. Cheap outlets have fingers stamped straight off the bus, which puts all the flexing on one small part of the brass. They fatigue easily. Better outlets have their brass stamped into a U or other elongated and curved shapes that spreads the flexing out over a wide area as a spring should be. These will stand up to many times more insertions that the cheap ones. Break apart a hospital grade outlet for example and look inside (not that hospital grade has that as part of it's spec...).

No way!! Sorry operator error.......Loop the wires so they are CW under each screw - the wire will wrap under the screw head as you tighten. Use a #1 Robertson or #1 Combo tip. You will be surprised how much tighter connections are than with phillips or flat head.
Actually becomes a PIA to remove wires!

Look into Klein# 665 or 7314 or equals.

I've had Robertsons strip, and my Leviton stuff doesn't even accept Robertson. Right now, I use a Milwaukee ACX screwdriver for brands that have the square center, and a Wera PlusMinus Philips for the other type. But I do agree that neither Phillips nor slotted do a good job on brass screws.

I believe that the push in style where the screw tightens against the wire is better than wrapping the wire around the screw. But, what do I know. I can't even tighten a screw properly.

Most GFCI's I've worked with have wire clamps. They're excellent, easy to use, hard to mess up, and can make it easier to have lots of wires in one box, BUT "better", well, both styles work just fine.

 

[dave*99]

Here is an example of a protection scheme. This motor is thermally protected.
It is safe to plug this into a 20A circuit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I believe that the push in style where the screw tightens against the wire is better than wrapping the wire around the screw. But, what do I know. I can't even tighten a screw properly.

umm that is NOT a "quick-wire" push-in terminal. No screw is used on the "quick-wire" terminals. youre mixing things up again.

a wrapped screw will always be better than a "quick-wire" terminal.

 

[Innovate1]

umm that is NOT a "quick-wire" push-in terminal. No screw is used on the "quick-wire" terminals. youre mixing things up again.

a wrapped screw will always be better than a "quick-wire" terminal.

If they were describing the clamp plate style where the wire goes in straight and a screw and plate inside that clamps the wire I think those are good. Much easier and still gives a reliable connection. Much different than the push in terminals.

 

[dave*99]

This:



Ain't this:



A treatment of the various connection methods and their performance is here. My hope is that the novices read this and get on the same page with the experts.

Back-wired electrical receptacle & switch connectors: safe or unsafe?

inspectapedia.com

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If they were describing the clamp plate style where the wire goes in straight and a screw and plate inside that clamps the wire I think those are good. Much easier and still gives a reliable connection. Much different than the push in terminals.

yes that is called back-wire which is NOT the same thing as "quick-wire push-in" terminals, which is what they were describing. Leviton receptacles that have the clamping plate are labeled as "industrial grade heavy duty." these are very expensive. they have a clamping plate inside the receptacle that moves up as the screw is tightened. These receptacles also have "side-wire" option which is where you wrap the wire around the screw.

Leviton 15 Amp 125 V Industrial Grade Duplex Outlet/Receptacle, White (1-Pack) 5262-W 5262-W - The Home Depot

Leviton Industrial grade devices are built to the most demanding standards for performance and reliability. They're designed to withstand the highest abuse and resist impact and cracking. Ideal for residential,

www.homedepot.com

Then theres the spec-grade style back-wire connection receptacle. Leviton labels these as "commercial grade". theres a plate just under the screw head outside of the receptacle. you insert the wire under this plate. the wire is clamped down towards the receptacle as you tighten the screw forcing the wire against the receptacle.

Leviton 15 Amp 125 V Commercial Grade Duplex Outlet/Receptacle, White (1-Pack) CBR15-W R62-CBR15-00W - The Home Depot

The Leviton Prograde 15 amp Duplex Double Pole Outlet designed to withstand the demands of commercial and institutional use. It is an UL and CSA listed product. It helps to prevent reset if its protective

www.homedepot.com

But neither of these are what @428PI was describing, which is the cheapo "quick-wire push-in" style receptacles. leviton labels these as residential grade. they cost less than a buck. you can also do side-wiring on these by wrapping the wire around the screw...

Leviton 15 Amp 125 V Duplex Outlet/Receptacle, White (1-Pack) 5320-W R52-05320-00W - The Home Depot

www.homedepot.com

 

[alfredeneuman]

This:

On this type of receptacle, the side screws are completely independent of the springs.
You can tighten (or loosen) the screws all you want and it won't serve to change the connection either way.
They're made for either side wiring, or quickwire (or a combination of the two)

 

[428PI]

But neither of these are what @428PI was describing, which is the cheapo "quick-wire push-in" style receptacles.

Wrong. Those were what I was describing. (maybe you were thinking of my surface mount plug). I was talking about these Leviton 15 amp commercial ones. Just installed 2 of them. I didn't wrap the wires but did shove the wires under the plates under the screwheads. I actually put 2 wires under one plate (not sure that's kosher but thought that that was better than cockeying the plate with just one wire when running to another recepticle). I like that much much better than wrapping the screw.

 

[mark flucke]

Did industrial/ commercial my whole career-can never even remember a 15 amp circuit or single phase-I have to think when I do a house-my shop and barn are grounds up and the house is grounds down-I used metal boxes in the shop and barn -blue boxes in my house/it all works, up to the code cycle that applied to the time the work was done-just remember code is a minimum-if you exceed it that is your choice -if you don't want to do it to code...do not do it!

 

[alfredeneuman]

The mere mention of this subject on most electrical forums can subject the originator to complete ridicule.

my shop and barn are grounds up and the house is grounds down

 

[eejack]

Come on dude. We were talking about the hot and cold wires. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit? Really, I'm getting tired of your stick.

Is shtick...unless you are talking about his ******* in which case this really has gone meshugge

 

[billconner]

We're wandering just a bit, so wondered your thoughts on solid versus stranded? Wiring garage, all 1/2" EMT and 4x4x2 1/8. Had most solid but small supply house near me only carried stranded. Pulls easier but not crazy about the way it wraps around a screw terminal.

 

[eejack]

We're wandering just a bit, so wondered your thoughts on solid versus stranded? Wiring garage, all 1/2" EMT and 4x4x2 1/8. Had most solid but small supply house near me only carried stranded. Pulls easier but not crazy about the way it wraps around a screw terminal.

I usually use crimp fork for stranded on receptacles like...

Gardner Bender 12 - 10 AWG #8 - 10 Stud Size Spade Terminal, Yellow (50-Pack) 75-116 - The Home Depot

Dependable and easy to use, Gardner Bender terminals (and wiring accessories) offer the high quality and application flexibility that professionals demand. Available in a variety of packaging options,

www.homedepot.com

Or you can put a short piece of solid wire on the receptacle and splice it to the stranded. This method is especially handy when you want to assure the circuit doesn't go though the terminals of the receptacle; or in the case of a multiwire circuit where you want to make certain the neutral is always properly connected.

 

[sparky 1971]

We're wandering just a bit, so wondered your thoughts on solid versus stranded? Wiring garage, all 1/2" EMT and 4x4x2 1/8. Had most solid but small supply house near me only carried stranded. Pulls easier but not crazy about the way it wraps around a screw terminal.

I use stranded 99.5% of the time when conduit is involved I try to use back wired devices. There have been a few times I didn't have the back wired type and went the traditional route. An old timer showed me a long time ago to strip the insulation long, but don't take it off when using stranded on screws.

 

[billconner]

interesting - leaving a bit of the insulation.

 

[Norcal]

interesting - leaving a bit of the insulation.

It works quite well.

 

[alfredeneuman]

An old timer showed me a long time ago to strip the insulation long, but don't take it off when using stranded on screws.

And pinch the wires tightly with a pair of needlenose around the screw while tightening the screw so the strands don't spread

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wrong. Those were what I was describing. (maybe you were thinking of my surface mount plug). I was talking about these Leviton 15 amp commercial ones. Just installed 2 of them. I didn't wrap the wires but did shove the wires under the plates under the screwheads. I actually put 2 wires under one plate (not sure that's kosher but thought that that was better than cockeying the plate with just one wire when running to another receptacle). I like that much much better than wrapping the screw.

they were? couldnt be. you called them "push-in". the spec grade commercial receptacles do NOT have push-in terminals. your quote is below... maybe youre confused on the terminology.... also, unless youre wrapping the wire around the screw, the screw wont be tightening around the wire.... only the plate tightens on the wire.

I believe that the push in style where the screw tightens against the wire is better than wrapping the wire around the screw. But, what do I know. I can't even tighten a screw properly.

 

[rharman]

I use stranded 99.5% of the time when conduit is involved I try to use back wired devices. There have been a few times I didn't have the back wired type and went the traditional route. An old timer showed me a long time ago to strip the insulation long, but don't take it off when using stranded on screws.

So, a question here. I used some #12 stranded for a couple of pigtails recently. It helped some over using solid.

But.... I'm wondering what the wire is that comes on the pre-wired GFCI's I've seen. It was on a 20A Leviton and pretty sure it was #12 but really flexible - kind of reminded me of the conductors in SJ cord.

Is that something you can buy to use for pigtails? What is it called? Would seem to make it a lot easier than stranded THHN.

 

[dave*99]

So, a question here. I used some #12 stranded for a couple of pigtails recently. It helped some over using solid.

But.... I'm wondering what the wire is that comes on the pre-wired GFCI's I've seen. It was on a 20A Leviton and pretty sure it was #12 but really flexible - kind of reminded me of the conductors in SJ cord.

Is that something you can buy to use for pigtails? What is it called? Would seem to make it a lot easier than stranded THHN.

Appliance wire.
It has smaller strands and more of them. That makes it more flexible.

 

[sparky 1971]

So, a question here. I used some #12 stranded for a couple of pigtails recently. It helped some over using solid.

But.... I'm wondering what the wire is that comes on the pre-wired GFCI's I've seen. It was on a 20A Leviton and pretty sure it was #12 but really flexible - kind of reminded me of the conductors in SJ cord.

Is that something you can buy to use for pigtails? What is it called? Would seem to make it a lot easier than stranded THHN.

It was probably MTW (machine tool wire). It has a higher strand count which makes it much more flexible. I've never had a problem using regular stranded for tails and there is always plenty of scrap to use, but here you go..

Search results for: 'Mtw'

www.wireandcableyourway.com

 

[428PI]

maybe youre confused on the terminology..

Maybe you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Give it a rest. It's not that big of deal. I've described it better in other posts. The wires do push in from the rear whether it uses the screw to tighten it or not.

 

[billconner]

Another off track and apologies if this is in a sticky. Sub panel has ground from main and buffer. All wiring in garage in metal boxes with EMT.

3 circuits (20 amp receptacles and 20 amp for overhead doors and one 15 amp for three switched lighting circuits. (Each circuit hits a GFCI first - much less expensive than GFCI breakers.) Old school. I ran a single green no. 12 to every box, strapped it to the box with 12, and if a device connected that to the ground pigtail. (copper crimps). Only one box extension - no knockouts - and three blank 4x4 covers are not grounded. Used an online calculator to check box fill if it seemed close.)

So, do I need this ground (it's going to stay!); is it good practice; and/or is it wrong as in unsafe or non-compliant with NEC?

 

[sparky 1971]

Another off track and apologies if this is in a sticky. Sub panel has ground from main and buffer. All wiring in garage in metal boxes with EMT.

3 circuits (20 amp receptacles and 20 amp for overhead doors and one 15 amp for three switched lighting circuits. (Each circuit hits a GFCI first - much less expensive than GFCI breakers.) Old school. I ran a single green no. 12 to every box, strapped it to the box with 12, and if a device connected that to the ground pigtail. (copper crimps). Only one box extension - no knockouts - and three blank 4x4 covers are not grounded. Used an online calculator to check box fill if it seemed close.)

So, do I need this ground (it's going to stay!); is it good practice; and/or is it wrong as in unsafe or non-compliant with NEC?

I think you're asking if it's ok to have a ground wire even though everything has been piped in EMT. The answer is.....yes. It's fine and pretty much the way it's always done these days. I am one of the few that doesn't pull a ground wire in EMT, it's always been one less thing to deal with and, for the last couple of years it's cut the cost significantly.

 

[billconner]

I think you're asking if it's ok to have a ground wire even though everything has been piped in EMT. The answer is.....yes. It's fine and pretty much the way it's always done these days. I am one of the few that doesn't pull a ground wire in EMT, it's always been one less thing to deal with for the last couple of years it's cut the cost significantly.

Thank you. I had a big spool of green no. 12 and most of a package.of ground screws, from last house in Chicago burbs 30 year restoration, so used some of it. Not much cost. Doesn't seem bad. I primarily wondered about the 4x4 plates for switches and receptacles.

 

[Firebrick43]

Thank you. I had a big spool of green no. 12 and most of a package.of ground screws, from last house in Chicago burbs 30 year restoration, so used some of it. Not much cost. Doesn't seem bad. I primarily wondered about the 4x4 plates for switches and receptacles.

The blank 4x4 plate is on a metal box right?

The box itself is grounded right?

If so the plate is grounded.

 

[rlitman]

I use stranded 99.5% of the time when conduit is involved I try to use back wired devices. There have been a few times I didn't have the back wired type and went the traditional route. An old timer showed me a long time ago to strip the insulation long, but don't take it off when using stranded on screws.

And pinch the wires tightly with a pair of needlenose around the screw while tightening the screw so the strands don't spread

I have the habit of twisting strands clockwise to hold them together. But when you then wrap that clockwise twisted bundle clockwise around a screw, it fans out badly as you compress it. I learned from a tip here to twist counter-clockwise before wrapping clockwise under the screw heads, and that does a lot to keep the wires together. I do frequently pinch with needlenose pliers too. I have a bad habit of doing that with solid wires as well. It gives a good connection, but can haunt you when you need to take that connection apart and need to fully remove the screw.

As for the extra insulation trick, I'm not a fan of that tail hanging off the back. I guess you could snip it flush afterwards, but truly, a crimped on fork is still the best answer.

So, a question here. I used some #12 stranded for a couple of pigtails recently. It helped some over using solid.

But.... I'm wondering what the wire is that comes on the pre-wired GFCI's I've seen. It was on a 20A Leviton and pretty sure it was #12 but really flexible - kind of reminded me of the conductors in SJ cord.

Is that something you can buy to use for pigtails? What is it called? Would seem to make it a lot easier than stranded THHN.

The fine stranded wire could be MTW or TEW. So long as it is cross-listed as THHN (it often is), it would be acceptable. But these fine strands are terrible under wire nuts. If you're into Wago's or crimps, then have at it.

 

[sparky 1971]

Thank you. I had a big spool of green no. 12 and most of a package.of ground screws, from last house in Chicago burbs 30 year restoration, so used some of it. Not much cost. Doesn't seem bad. I primarily wondered about the 4x4 plates for switches and receptacles.

As long as the screws are tight, you're good to go.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Maybe you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Give it a rest. It's not that big of deal. I've described it better in other posts. The wires do push in from the rear whether it uses the screw to tighten it or not.

"push-in" is an actual term for a specific type of terminal. so when you use it to describe a non "push-in" terminal it confuses things...

 

[428PI]

"push-in" is an actual term for a specific type of terminal. so when you use it to describe a non "push-in" terminal it confuses things...

Give it a rest. Sure it's confusing. I apologize but gee wiz you guys go on and on and everyone of you knew what I was talking about (if you read instead of skipping through parts). I don't have the terminology manual in front of me for quick reference but really shouldn't need it. It's like a couple of you guys like to "push it in" when you get the chance.

 

[dave*99]

By the third or fourth time in on a thread it is great when folks learn stuff, terminology, techniques etc. I hope that’s why we gather here. Or you can challenge the experts and argue. That’s not what I hope to see here.

 

[428PI]

Or you can challenge the experts and argue. That’s not what I hope to see here.

I feel you're directing that at me. If so tell me instead of beating around the horse. Now, I feel that many here were telling me I was doing things wrong when in fact I wasn't and they argued about how I might have called something but in my descriptions they should have known exactly what I was talking about. It's not rocket science. What I hope to not see here is personal attacks and jumping on people for no reason.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I think you're asking if it's ok to have a ground wire even though everything has been piped in EMT. The answer is.....yes. It's fine and pretty much the way it's always done these days. I am one of the few that doesn't pull a ground wire in EMT, it's always been one less thing to deal with and, for the last couple of years it's cut the cost significantly.

The EMT has less resistance than the wire so it carries more of the fault current (the current takes all paths back to the source)
The only time I put a ground in EMT is if it's in the job specs, or on a roof where it's exposed to damage. Other than that no way.

 

[sparky 1971]

The EMT has less resistance than the wire so it carries more of the fault current (the current takes all paths back to the source)
The only time I put a ground in EMT is if it's in the job specs, or on a roof where it's exposed to damage. Other than that no way.

I so badly wanted to add in that EMT is a better ground than a piece of wire. That would have just caused this thread to go on for another six pages of arguing. The guys that one time changed a three way switch and only had to switch the wires around twice to get it to work right would think they are qualified to tell us how much better a wire is because of loose fittings. Then the debate would move on to set screw vs compression for two pages, Then back to the benefits of using 20 amp plug ins because they are more heavier duty than those little 15 amps.

Now that you did the dirty work for me, thank you.

 

[mm08822]

I figure if the post isn't answered in 10 replies, it's going to be word salad before it dies.

 

[sparky 1971]

I figure if the post isn't answered in 10 replies, it's going to be word salad before it dies.

It's always answered within 10 replies. Usually 10 different answers that oppose each other, one of which may be correct depending on the time of day the thread gets started.

 

[Firebrick43]

By the third or fourth time in on a thread it is great when folks learn stuff, terminology, techniques etc. I hope that’s why we gather here. Or you can challenge the experts and argue. That’s not what I hope to see here.

I am going to have to ask you to refrain from “beating around the horse.”

It can scare them!

Keep your beating to the circular proximity of bushes only!

 

[mm08822]

It's always answered within 10 replies. Usually 10 different answers that oppose each other, one of which may be correct depending on the time of day the thread gets started.

and therein is the start of verbal diarrhea and whatnots......

 

[yatg]

I figure if the post isn't answered in 10 replies, it's going to be word salad before it dies.

We need to get to the root cause of these discrepancies because there are different possibilities that affect multiple outcomes.

 

[billconner]

On the ground in emt question, my career was a a consultant for primarily public school buildings. I think on every one - 100+ - the electrical engineer specified a ground wire. Just an observation.