30x40x12 Great Value shop.

[rebelranger]

Okay GJ membership the time has finally come to start my forever shop. I've been lurking around for awhile and with life delays things pushed back the shop start. Regardless I'm aiming for the best value in this MidWest shop. Long term goal is automotive work, minor metal and wood work, and limited vehicle painting.
Goal is a to z for under 25k.
Thus far, R7.5 insulated 4in concrete slab with steel - $7,000.
30x40x12, 2x4 stick frame, trusses 4ft on center with 5psf bottom chord deadload rating and 30psf top chord deadload, 2 10x10 overhead door openings, and 1 included man door. Wainscoting around building, and 12"overhang - $6735.88.
2 10x10 R16 with side openers installed $3200.00 [waiting on other bids before I order on my own]
Labor - $3,000.
Electric - I will be doing. $750 - LED tube lights, 110 and 220 boxes alternating every 4 ft. [Underground from pole is 65ft and co-op installs for free]
Water - trench being dug during concrete pour and I'll branch off house 1in line with 3/4 pex for 54ft run.
Insulation - 2in rigid foam on exterior of stick frame, bought off chicken barn for $10 per 4x26 sheet. 1in closed cell spray foam and r13 batts for walls and 1in closed cell spray foam and r30 batts for ceiling - $2250.
Hvac - 1- 24000btu hyperheat mini splits installed $1600.

Ok guys what have I missed or forgotten?

 

[Markromeo]

At that height of wall, I'd want 2x6 framing, not 2x4.

I'd also try to draw your front view to scale, I think you will find it fills out differently. I attached a picture of my 30x40 with 2 10x10's on the front. I have 3 feet from the wall to the first door and 3 feet between them wish I would have done 4 and 4.

 

[jetnow1]

I put 110 outlets every 4 feet, actually 2 duplex outlets every 4 feet on different circuits.
I put 220 outlets where I thought My need would be plus 1 centered on each wall. This was on a 24 by 30 garage. I have poles supporting a center beam, put outlets there also.
I have found that I have used every one of them at times, and rarely need an extension cord. Mark is correct on the need for space to the side, especially for automotive work.
Remember that the large clearance that it looks like when looking at a drawing fills up fast as items get stored along the wall, and don't forget you lose the wall thickness.

 

[Kaizen]

Are those your numbers or actual estimates? Seem very low for concrete and building. I built mine myself so zero labor and I’m easily over 30k


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[Black Oak]

Are those your numbers or actual estimates? Seem very low for concrete and building. I built mine myself so zero labor and I’m easily over 30k


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I agree , costs seem a little lite . Also , where are you located ? Midwest is a little general . You'll get better advise if guys know where you are . Can you tell more on the exterior insulation/ sheathing your using ?

 

[240sxguy]

Yeah you're going to need 2x6 walls. From what I have seen by me that concrete estimate may be close/correct. 4' OC trusses?

 

[rebelranger]

Thanks guys. All the numbers a bids given to me and accepted, minus the garage doors.

I am located in Southern Missouri North of Thayer.

I have the OH doors 5' from end wall and 5' between each other, which is as far as I want to space them out.

Trusses are 4' OC.

I did get a $6,000 concrete bid but no insulation. I wanted insulation so I had to get another contractor and it was $7,000. It's only $2,600 in actual materials. So $4,400 in labor for one day I think is more than fair!

 

[matt_i]

Imo if you are insulating under the concrete its a mistake not to frame 2x6.

Seems like you are going to have to sheath the roof with 3/4" plywood to span the roof deck @ 48" oc....that's going to add up.

Personally I don't think that's a wise place to save, I'd do the trusses 24" oc which are going to get lighter in construction anyway. If you don't do attic storage trusses they can be super simple "W" trusses but you also give up the cheapest square footage you'll get on the project. And you can drop back to 1/2" roof sheathing.

Take a look at energy heel trusses, it would be nice to have the equivalence of 9-10" of loose fill insulation in the ceiling.

 

[n20junkie]

I agree with Matt. Putting insulation under a pad and then skimping in wall insulation is a mistake.

48” spaced trusses is a mistake if you want to insulate the thing. Spanning 48” with any material is a PIA compared to 24”.

Do attic trusses, even if you can’t afford the floor now. You WILL regret giving up a few hundred square feet. Attic space is great because you can stuff it WAY tighter than floor space. You can fit a ton of stuff upstairs and keep the floor open.

 

[sweetk30]

and if you plan on a 2 post lift the 12ft celing will be super tight to do unless you do special rafters in that section for a extra bump up in head height .

i have 12ft now and wish i had 14ft . it wouldnt lock me in so narrow on lift brands and sizes and more room up top .

also look at a few brands of lift and get a idea of the floor layout for posts . then do 2 boxes deeper than 4" and say 4ft x 4ft in size so you have a solid area to bolt a 2 post lift in to the floor .

my garage doors when i moved in were non insulated and open on the back side / inside shop . i had the local spray foam guy hit 2 8ft x 8ft and a 10ft x 10 ft for 500 bucks . then he said skim off the highs and use bulk rolled coiling for siding trim work in the color you want as its the same width as the door panels . then screw it to the panels and bam saved a ton of money on insulated garage doors .

 

[MSPoirier]

Have you considered more steel construction? My 30x46x12 has steel frame and the 12' walls are closer to 13.5' towards the middle and I fit a 2 post lift well. The concrete cost sounds close but the building cost seems very low to me but I'm from New England. I do think those are high walls with a wide span for 2x4 construction. Excited to see your build come along!

- Sam

New England Region

 

[240sxguy]

Thanks guys. All the numbers a bids given to me and accepted, minus the garage doors.

I am located in Southern Missouri North of Thayer.

I have the OH doors 5' from end wall and 5' between each other, which is as far as I want to space them out.

Trusses are 4' OC.

I did get a $6,000 concrete bid but no insulation. I wanted insulation so I had to get another contractor and it was $7,000. It's only $2,600 in actual materials. So $4,400 in labor for one day I think is more than fair!

That makes more sense, 4' oc trusses in WI wouldn't work real well with our snow load!

 

[rebelranger]

Thank you all for your input and advice.

So I can't lie I struggled with the 2x4 or 2x6 walls but after talking to an energy consultant R14 is the break point for Zone 4/5 on ROI. As I get closer to retirement in 12 years, age 45, I'm going to remove the metal siding and add 1 5in rigid foam [r7.5] on top of wall insulation. I just can't justify the heating costs, in terms of ROI, for 2x6 or radiant heat.

Now the trusses I struggled with 4'OC but after checking out several that my builder built I feel comfortable it'll buff.

Thank you for the concrete pad input. The concrete crew said they already factored in doing 6in 3'x3' square pads for a future lift.

WRT garage doors, how does the spray foam doors work. I can't find doors and side openers for much under $3200.

 

[matt_i]

As I get closer to retirement in 12 years, age 45, I'm going to remove the metal siding and add 1 5in rigid foam [r7.5] on top of wall insulation.

I snipped this out.

Your 30x40x12 has 360*2 + 480*2 = 1680sf of wall. 1-1/2" Foamular costs roughly $24/sheet so roughly $1260 * 1.1 ~~= $1400 for the Second Layer of insulation.

In your build you have 30+30+40+40 in walls so 140 linear ft. 140 * 12/16 oc = 105 studs. Home D has a 2x4x12 for 4.24ea and a 2x6x12 for 6.51 each. Roughly 2.27 difference * 105 pcs ~~=$240 of cost difference to allow you to insulate.

Note I didn't detail out the garage doors and windows and the top+bottom plates. This is simple estimation in an apples-to-apples comparison.

Fiberglass R-13, 1680sf / 105 sqft/pack of BF10 batts, $40.48 each. $647.68.

Fiberglass R-19, 1680sf / 77.5 sqft/pack of E61 batts, $ 41.48 each, $899.

But: just pointing out that whoever is advising you needs to show their numbers to you. My point is they are advising you into false economy.

Paying an additional $240 in 2x6 studs + additional $250 for R-19 fiberglass batts Now vs. paying $1400 for your additional foamboard insulation & the labor to R&R all of the wall covering and redo all of the electrical outlet boxes Later does not sound like a good deal to me.

All prices quoted from Home D. Please feel free to insert your own numbers as some things can be had for less.

 

[Kaizen]

Thank you all for your input and advice.

So I can't lie I struggled with the 2x4 or 2x6 walls but after talking to an energy consultant R14 is the break point for Zone 4/5 on ROI. As I get closer to retirement in 12 years, age 45, I'm going to remove the metal siding and add 1 5in rigid foam [r7.5] on top of wall insulation. I just can't justify the heating costs, in terms of ROI, for 2x6 or radiant heat.

Now the trusses I struggled with 4'OC but after checking out several that my builder built I feel comfortable it'll buff.

Thank you for the concrete pad input. The concrete crew said they already factored in doing 6in 3'x3' square pads for a future lift.

WRT garage doors, how does the spray foam doors work. I can't find doors and side openers for much under $3200.

Consider what everyone is saying. They are cutting costs to get you a garage. It will meet basic code. The costs I listed above are for about the same size with zero labor. I have 2x6 walls,5/8zip roof,double your number of trusses, zip walls.
Imo no sense insulating a slab you are not putting pex in.
Strong framing allow a lot to be hung on the walls inside like wood storage.
No mention of site work? Who is stripping, filling, and compacting the **** out of it?
Is the steel in pad just in thickened edge? Are they adding fiber mesh?

Not trying to rain on your parade but I’d be concerned. Also ditch the insulation and interior work if you need money. Do that when you can.


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[rebelranger]

No harm no foul team, bring on the critical points because now is the time to do so. I called builder about going 2x6 from 2x4. He is doing the ordering difference now.

He is pretty stuck on the 48" on center trusses. He said he spans them with 2x4s then sheaths with 1/2 osb. Said he has never had a problem, I can vouch that a 10year old garage he built has no issues.

The dirt work has no fiber but double rebar in perimeter a s single runs every 24in in the center.

Here is the build site.

 

[rebelranger]

Last point, I've struggled on the insulated slab without PEX, I just can't ever put concrete down with insulation. While radiant heat would be great I can't justify the cost of it on electricity, no gas here. I want the building to not condensate.

 

[Kaizen]

No harm no foul team, bring on the critical points because now is the time to do so. I called builder about going 2x6 from 2x4. He is doing the ordering difference now.

He is pretty stuck on the 48" on center trusses. He said he spans them with 2x4s then sheaths with 1/2 osb. Said he has never had a problem, I can vouch that a 10year old garage he built has no issues.

The dirt work has no fiber but double rebar in perimeter a s single runs every 24in in the center.

Here is the build site.

All that has to be removed down to untouched soil. Then fill brought in. Mine was two freaking feet. Must have been a farm. Concrete is all about the ground prep
Honestly the cost of pex is the insulation. If you are already doing that go lay some loops and terminate in a corner. Even if you never use them you have the ability.


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[matt_i]

Not sure if you saw the point about attic storage trusses so I will bring numbers.

You are going for 1200sqft for $25k in the original project. Roughly $21 per sqft.

The attic storage trusses I put into my 25x40 addition were approx a $2k luxury.

But I received 12 x 40 = 480 sqft of dry space in return.

Which is $4.16 per sqft.

And that is a very good deal if you asked me.

 

[jkeyser14]

I didn't see a line for roofing?

 

[CraigStu]

I wonder how the cost of extra trusses compares to that of all the 2x4s he wants to put between the trusses. Does he lay the 2x4s on top of the trusses so the top surface of the truss is now 1.5 in below the 2x4s so osb doesn't get nailed to the truss. Or does he cut the 2x4s and use hangers to put them between the trusses?

 

[Bert_]

4' truss spacing is extremely common if you're going to tin the roof. For tin you need the horizontal nailers anyway. OSB is a waste if you're going to tin it.

If it's getting shingled I would want the trusses on 2' spacing with normal sheeting.

 

[sweetk30]

even if no heat in the shop floor i would insulate the slab with foam board before the pour of concrete . my shop they didnt do this and the floor is always cold as hell in the winter even with the heat left at 55* . then i fire the wood stove up to get the shop warm for the main heat when i am out there and the shop gets warmer but the floor is still cold .

my buddy just did pex and insulation blocks made for pex . he put them down him self and just rolled out and clicked the pex in the blocks with his feet and then they come poured the floor.

 

[yeldogt]

Thank you all for your input and advice.

So I can't lie I struggled with the 2x4 or 2x6 walls but after talking to an energy consultant R14 is the break point for Zone 4/5 on ROI. As I get closer to retirement in 12 years, age 45, I'm going to remove the metal siding and add 1 5in rigid foam [r7.5] on top of wall insulation. I just can't justify the heating costs, in terms of ROI, for 2x6 or radiant heat.

Now the trusses I struggled with 4'OC but after checking out several that my builder built I feel comfortable it'll buff.

Thank you for the concrete pad input. The concrete crew said they already factored in doing 6in 3'x3' square pads for a future lift.

WRT garage doors, how does the spray foam doors work. I can't find doors and side openers for much under $3200.

So you are 45 or 32 .... ??? I'm going to guess 32 ... At 32 you always assume there is lots of time and energy ... I will finish it later ... I will upgrade it latter ... this is my forever. You may indeed be the 1 in 100 who actually rips off the siding to do what he wants 15 years from now.

My dad died when I was 35 ... the one thing he did get through to me. Get it done the correct way first .. even if you have to borrow (prudently). Otherwise -- it's never done ... and you never go back and fix things.

 

[Bert_]

even if no heat in the shop floor i would insulate the slab with foam board before the pour of concrete . my shop they didnt do this and the floor is always cold as hell in the winter even with the heat left at 55* . then i fire the wood stove up to get the shop warm for the main heat when i am out there and the shop gets warmer but the floor is still cold .

my buddy just did pex and insulation blocks made for pex . he put them down him self and just rolled out and clicked the pex in the blocks with his feet and then they come poured the floor.

I think if I was building one I would insulation vertically down to the bottom of the footing and not get to worried about under the floor. If you keep the cold out, the ground should stay around 50* in the winter.

 

[matt_i]

I wonder how the cost of extra trusses compares to that of all the 2x4s he wants to put between the trusses. Does he lay the 2x4s on top of the trusses so the top surface of the truss is now 1.5 in below the 2x4s so osb doesn't get nailed to the truss. Or does he cut the 2x4s and use hangers to put them between the trusses?

My thought is the 2x4 stringers are a way to pick up speed in the build. Assuming one did that, it cuts down the plywood thickness to 1/2" which is a savings but then one rarely has to worry about the plywood edges landing exactly on the truss centers. There's a 3-1/2" wide pad to work with instead of a 1-1/2" pad on the long edges, and the short edges never have an issue, so it takes away the need for any precision when setting trusses. Rough measurements will work.

There's always the (good, fast, cheap) pick 2 conundrum.

 

[rebelranger]

Team,

Roof is tin. So that's why the 4' OC trusses.
The insulation will be under the floor and 2' down from top of concrete. Basically the concrete will be wrapped in R7.5. There will be 4in of crushed washed 1in rock as well. The concrete crew was out yesterday marking off spacing and I chatted with them. I talked them into adding a 24in drain in front of one garage door and they talked me into adding plumbing drain in the corner.

I understand the rigid exterior foam insulation piece seems like a hassle but with 20yr tin I suspect about the time I'm ready to retire I'll need to replace it and then I'll add the foam.

What did everyone pay for 10x10 garage doors. I can't seem to get under $3,000 for two doors and openers, regardless of quality of doors.

I'm playing LED lights, anyone have bad experiences using the ones that daisy chain together?

I plan to have four light switches, 1 for exterior lights and three for individual bays of lights. Thoughts?

I haven't heard back on the price change to go to 2x6 framing.

 

[matt_i]

Team,

Roof is tin. So that's why the 4' OC trusses.

Beware of the phenomenon of rain inside the shop due to exposed metal. If the weather changes, humid air inside can start rapidly condensing on the underside of the roof in a cold rainstorm. This can lead to droplets running down and irritating drips inside. Been in a building while it was happening.

One could fix this with ply/osb and then a high temp underlayment, or by putting in a ceiling which sort of mitigates it.

Ultimately I should stop posting about all of the issues that come from trusses set on anything but 24" centers, because it doesn't seem to be ringing any bells.

Also make sure you have plans to deal with the outlet and switch boxes having to be relocated when you push the walls in 1.5". They will probably all have to be raised which is going to require new cuts in the wall material.

 

[rebelranger]

I will be doing a ceiling later. Likely 26ga tin.

Future rigid foam insulation plans will be on the outside not inside. It'll tie into the rigid foam surrounding the concrete.

Weather got pretty nasty here last night so concrete is delayed at least 48hr.

Good news, new garage door bid. Two R14 installed 10x10 for $2,460. Local company called Dent County overhead door so I'm also helping small businesses.

I've called about the 4' OC and everyone around here says unless living inside go 4' OC. I feel getting engineer spec trusses with a bottom chord deadload rating, I'm already ahead of my neighbors.

 

[rebelranger]

Concrete come out today to start footers. The ground he is too wet to keep going. Ended up paying for a gravel drive, so that's $1,500 for gravel which is unexpected. Also rain this entire weekend so concrete may not get finished until Monday.

Pretty bummed about the delays.

 

[shorin]

Rebel, we're going to have to compare some notes... I'm planning a 40 x 48 shop addition now, and I'm in the West Plains area.

Cheapest OH doors I've found is from Menards and install myself... A lot cheaper... I can do a 14x12 and a 12x12 (both insulated) for less than $2k...

I agree on the 4' truss spacing, as that's what I'm planning. I would do 2x6 side walls and go 14' if you want a lift. That's what I'm doing, and the price in materials is only a couple hundred dollars more.

Curious who you're using for concrete, etc. but we can PM if you don't want to post them.

Danny

 

[rebelranger]

I've got the building upgraded to 2x6 it was $600 more which continues to wreck the budget.

I want my OH doors done right, it's one area I know a poor install is just a hassle forever.

Got the top insulation installed, surround goes in before concrete...shooting for Monday because rain Fri-Sun.

4' OC is the common just ensure you get appropriate bottom chord dead load rating...no less than 5psf and ask for engineer spec sheet.

Ordered my metal roof racking system and inverter. Now hunting for decent panels, this is a diy 5-7kw solar install.

Barring weather shop will be up next week.

 

[andyvh1959]

Good luck on your project. For comparison, here in Green Bay I'm building a 24x28 2x6 stud wall scissor trussed shop garage, 16x7 OH door, 36" service door. Its on a 4" locked edge slab, with heating coils installed, over 2" foam. I am into this project so far at $19,000, me as the general contractor and me doing both the front and rear hip framing, all the insulation, wiring, roofing and finish work. I got all the materials new from Menards for $9000. Site prep was $1500, hired to a skid steer operator and he hauled in at least 30 yards of recycled asphalt fill. Hired out the slab work and concrete for $4500. Hired out $1500 to a mason to lay two rows of 8" block around the slab. Hired out the basic framing to a builder friend for $2500. By the time I am done with landscaping and grade work I'll probably hit $21000.

I'll be watching your solar panel installation as I have a small 800w four panel system planned for my shop to do a stand alone 12v LED shop light system and multiple 12v outlets to plug in my 11 motorcycles. I have the four panels, charge controller and DC breaker panel already. Bought all that over the previous year before the build started.

 

[240sxguy]

Good luck on your project. For comparison, here in Green Bay I'm building a 24x28 2x6 stud wall scissor trussed shop garage, 16x7 OH door, 36" service door. Its on a 4" locked edge slab, with heating coils installed, over 2" foam. I am into this project so far at $19,000, me as the general contractor and me doing both the front and rear hip framing, all the insulation, wiring, roofing and finish work. I got all the materials new from Menards for $9000. Site prep was $1500, hired to a skid steer operator and he hauled in at least 30 yards of recycled asphalt fill. Hired out the slab work and concrete for $4500. Hired out $1500 to a mason to lay two rows of 8" block around the slab. Hired out the basic framing to a builder friend for $2500. By the time I am done with landscaping and grade work I'll probably hit $21000.

I'll be watching your solar panel installation as I have a small 800w four panel system planned for my shop to do a stand alone 12v LED shop light system and multiple 12v outlets to plug in my 11 motorcycles. I have the four panels, charge controller and DC breaker panel already. Bought all that over the previous year before the build started.

You've done well with your budget! If you don't mind me asking how did you find your contractors?

 

[rebelranger]

Rain is destroying this project. It rained again today and supposedly going to rain Wednesday to Sunday...err. The building materials were supposed to be delivered until the ****** truck got stuck, so semi went back without dropping off supplies.

Good news thought got a screaming deal on 2in insulated 10x10 Delden installed garage doors. $975 a door from Felker and Sons in Mountain Grove, Mo. Give them a call.

My builder came out and was impressed the footer got poured but understands the delays.

*Andy1959 - my solar panel project will be me installing the most economical system i can do. It'll be string invertor, series wiring, and whatever the cheapest panel o can get.

*240sx - contractors mostly came by word of mouth and friends who used them

 

[240sxguy]

Rain is destroying this project. It rained again today and supposedly going to rain Wednesday to Sunday...err. The building materials were supposed to be delivered until the ****** truck got stuck, so semi went back without dropping off supplies.

Good news thought got a screaming deal on 2in insulated 10x10 Delden installed garage doors. $975 a door from Felker and Sons in Mountain Grove, Mo. Give them a call.

My builder came out and was impressed the footer got poured but understands the delays.

*Andy1959 - my solar panel project will be me installing the most economical system i can do. It'll be string invertor, series wiring, and whatever the cheapest panel o can get.

*240sx - contractors mostly came by word of mouth and friends who used them

Sounds good, thanks.

 

[rebelranger]

Finally progress! We literally have had nothing but rain for the past 50 days. Here is the concrete!

 

[rebelranger]

Building supplies coming out Friday. Paid today $6700!

 

[rebelranger]

It blows my mind how a building this large is so small in materials.

So I talked to the builder some more and the stick built building is 2x6 studs but then 2x4 purlins. Anyone have input on these buildings. That appears to be how he is wrapping the building in rigid foam as well for so cheap.

Regardless I don't work in it every day and the 2 ton minisplit will keep it cool or warm.

I'm just ready for it to be up.

On flooring I'm thinking vct tiles. Should I seal the concrete before I put them down?

 

[matt_i]

If not wet-curing the concrete it would be best to have curing-sealed it just after its hard enough to walk on. Also this brings the thoughts of sawcutting the crack control joints the next day after the pour. 10-12' squares. Maybe that's already done.