40x60 Red Barn Full HVAC Install

[nsula_country]

5 Ton Heat Pump, 20kw electric HVAC build thread.

I am starting the HVAC build thread.

Equipment is Ruud 5 Ton 14 SEER Heat Pump, Air Handler and 20kw heat strip with ducting. It's an ALL ELECTRIC SYSTEM.

Big red Barn is a total of 60x70. 40x60x17 enclosed. I have started on the project and so far have completed powering up the air handler and heat strips. No supply plenum, used thermostat, just blowing straight up and letting 4 ceiling fans stir the air.

Hasn't been overly cold here, but was playing with it one evening. Did raise the air temp over 5* in a reasonable amount of time.

Based on calculator on the POCO website for my area rate with fuel adjustment is about $0.10 kWh.

May-Aug $0.0597 kilowatt-hours + fuel surcharges
Nov-Apr $0.0496 kilowatt-hours + fuel surcharges first 500 kWh. $0.0431 additional.

It say that 20kW load (resistive heat), 300 hours annually will cost $675. Which is about $2.25/hr of actual runtime. I am thinking of actually putting an hour meter on the unit... I'm a nerd... A controls nerd...

CT

 

[nsula_country]

Still uploading pictures of build so far.

This the general layout of the system. Not to scale. Originally was going to be 6, 6x16 registers. Have changed it to 8, 12x12.

View media item 89335
CT

 

[nsula_country]

The return plenum. Will have 3, 20x25 filter grills. 2 would have been enough for 2000 cfm, but decided to use 3 to be safe. Its a shop, may be dusty at times. Downfall of a Mini-Split head, limited filtration.

View media item 89516
This is a prefab supply plenum, 20x24x48. It knocks together.

View media item 89517
View media item 89518
This was the test fit. Pulled the blower and coil out for fitment purposes.

View media item 89519
This is how it looks right now. Powered up, temporary thermostat, no filters, no supply plenum, no duct work... Just for testing purposes and available for use IF required!

View media item 89521
More will follow once I pickup the rest of my parts.

Then the punch list.

1. Construct duct system
2. Install filter grills
3. Run conduit for condenser disconnect and service receptacle
4. Pour pad or just use a composite pad
5. Bend and braze lineset
6. Condensate drain

Enjoy!

CT

 

[aunsafe2015]

Nice, I'll enjoy watching your progress.

 

[protegeV]

sweet, I'll follow along. I need to come up with a plan for my building as well. Same size.

 

[nsula_country]

Thank you for following along!

I hope to have duct work installed within next few weeks. Working on this in evenings/weekends as I have time. Have to work primary job and home life first!

HVAC is my secondary occupation. Don't do service and repair calls for hire. I only service my installs. Which is VERY far and few between. I provide 2 years labor, registered mfg warranty is 10 years parts. I can count on 1 hand how many service calls and parts I have had to warranty out in the 1st 2 years!

Installation quality is more important than brand or model of equipment... Proper attention to manufacturers recommended practices during installation is the key ro decades of trouble free service life.

CT

 

[dcg9381]

Equipment is Ruud 5 Ton 14 SEER Heat Pump, Air Handler and 20kw heat strip with ducting. It's an ALL ELECTRIC SYSTEM.

Thanks for detailing. What is your cost on this system?
I have a similar barn, about to do 2 x 24k BTU ductless split systems...

 

[nsula_country]

Thanks for detailing. What is your cost on this system?
I have a similar barn, about to do 2 x 24k BTU ductless split systems...

For the size of the space, I would not have been satisfied with ductless. Others mileage may vary. They should work in theory. A Ton is a Ton... 4 Tons "should" be about 1600 CFM.

Highly doubt that 2 ductless air handlers can match the CFM of a ducted system in terms of air movement. Not to mention only having 2 air discharge points in the building envelope.

Rough estimate until I can put all the invoices together is about $5000. BUT, some items in this figure aren't required or may cost more or less to perform. In this figure, there is ZERO outside labor or permits.

This includes all materials to build the return plenum stand and filter grills.

All materials to run 2 conduits about 50'-60' with wire (4 #6, 2 #10, 2 #12 plus grounds) and three 2 pole breakers.

$300+ worth of Unistrut/Superstrut parts for conduit rack/support for ducts.

100% new HVAC equipment and sheet metal duct materials (8 outlets 12x12) and bubble wrap insulation.

WiFi thermostat and Ubiquiti point to point radio equipment to get wireless to the shop and access point.

The only parts not purchased, because I have surplus is 7/8" copper, 7/8" Rubatex insulation, 3/8" copper, 5 and 10 conductor thermostat wire.

Could have reduced the cost greatly (+$600) without using distributed ducting vs just using a couple of wide throw louvers straight off of the plenum. Concerned about even distribution going that way, even with 4 ceiling fans.

Ubiquiti equipment adds about $300-$400, and WiFi Thermostat will add about $200. Both not required, but desired.

CT

 

[dcg9381]

I've used Ubiquiti for remote wi-fi cameras hidden in some trees.. Worked great.

I agree with you about overall distribution points and air-handling. It's not necessarily an issue in my space, IE - I'm not saying that ductless is the way to go at all.

I am surprised at $5k cost, but I've never done the sheet metal / duct work....

Let us know how it works.

 

[nsula_country]

I've used Ubiquiti for remote wi-fi cameras hidden in some trees.. Worked great.

I agree with you about overall distribution points and air-handling. It's not necessarily an issue in my space, IE - I'm not saying that ductless is the way to go at all.

I am surprised at $5k cost, but I've never done the sheet metal / duct work....

Let us know how it works.

Ubiquiti is nice stuff. I use their access points at home and at work. Also am using their EdgeRouter.

Ran the numbers, ducting sheet metal and all components down to the screws is $880 with tax. 20"x24"x48" supply plenum adds another $90. So we are in this for $1000 just for supply duct system.

Raw equipment alone cost is about $2700. This is the cost people see when they go window shopping on the internet for a 5 ton split heat pump.

Changeout, keeping existing electrical, gas, duct system ect, is equipment cost plus some markup and labor.

New construction, new install where EVERYTHING has to be installed, has higher cost. I would not install this system as I have designed it for less than $10,000 turn key. Probably closer to $12,000-$14,000 for me, my hand and a scissor lift rental.

Mini Split ductless would have been cheaper... Possibly. But not adequate in this application due to the volume of air that they, do not move. No way that a mini split head can throw air 30'.

I would need, IMHO, 6 heads minimum. Each head would have to serve a 20x20 area. With 6 heads, conventional split comes out cheaper.

CT

 

[nsula_country]

I have an update. Not as much progress as I would like, but with holidays and funerals, meh...

The 5 ton Heat Pump Condenser. Heavy dude.

View media item 89842


Most of the sheetmetal. Had delays getting the saddle "tees", 12x12x10 insulated no flange boxes and 12x12 commercial grade aluminum wall registers. This is enough to keep me busy for a little while.

View media item 89841


Installed the 3, 20x25 filter grills and placed filters in them.

View media item 89843


How it currently stands. Ready for me to finish pulling wire thru the right conduit for the condenser before I start hanging the duct. Forgot to take pics of the outside conduit, disconnect, and service receptacle.

View media item 89844


Had an opportunity to use the heat this weekend. It was in the low 40's, set thermostat on 60. Within about 30-40 minutes it cycled off. Then cycled a few more times the next hour. Then turned it off. So for no ductwork and using fans to move the air, I think it is going to perform well! Not shabby for over 45,000 cubic feet of space.

So, stay tuned for future progress.

CT

 

[nsula_country]

Been a little bit. Working on this in spells.

Went to NOLA this weekend... We all know how that went down.

Completed 100% HVAC electrical with exception of class 2 wiring. After condenser install will finish class 2.

Junction boxes for air handler and outside run.

View media item 89974
Buttoned up distribution panel.

View media item 89975
Move the party outside. This is the drop for the 60A fused disconnect and dedicated 20A convenience receptacle.

Did a little custom rolling offset plus 90* bend with a heat gun. Turned out 80%... Little rusty, been behind a desk for a decade!

View media item 89977
60 A disco and 20A GFCI convenience receptacle. Tad crooked...

View media item 89976
Finally. Can start on duct work. Will make unistrut standoffs to support from the pipe rack.

View media item 89973
Enjoy. Hope to start the ducts this week.

CT

 

[pogrelis97]

Looks good, I also have a 5ton unit in a 40x60 and have about the same run time to get up to 60degrees from 40.

 

[nsula_country]

Looks good, I also have a 5ton unit in a 40x60 and have about the same run time to get up to 60degrees from 40.

Good feedback. Glad to see another owner that has a larger shop with a larger system. Most of the posters and viewers on this site have smaller spaces which mini splits, PTAC, and window units seem to work fine. Or they only heat with NG, propane, oil or wood.

Decided to go forced air. Could not see running 6 mini heads around the building being cost effective (20'x20' per head).

Is your building of similar construction?

Do you heat and cool?

CT

 

[MattT]

It say that 20kW load (resistive heat), 300 hours annually will cost $675. Which is about $2.25/hr of actual runtime. I am thinking of actually putting an hour meter on the unit... I'm a nerd... A controls nerd...

Would definitely be interesting to put an hour meter on the strips. Or I think you can get that data out of some smart thermostats. Personally I doubt it'll need close to 300 hours of back up heat.

 

[nsula_country]

Would definitely be interesting to put an hour meter on the strips. Or I think you can get that data out of some smart thermostats. Personally I doubt it'll need close to 300 hours of back up heat.

Haven't settled on a thermostat yet. Want WiFi stat, that has a good app and stable server. Emerson app has very good reviews compared to Honeywell app, but they only go down to 50*. Being that its WiFi, may not be a biggie.

The 300 hours was estimated by the calculator I was using, could not change that value. I was more interested in trying to determine actual kw/hr rate. Our bill show electric price and a fuel adjustment surcharge... Not just a simple number.

Currently running only electric, only when I'm out there and it is 40's or lower. Today it is much lower (36*, 89% humidity).

Have all electrical ready. Just need to set condenser and run lineset for heat pump operation.

Looking at different options for hour logging. Would like to log all cycles. May use a datalogger (Red Lion?). Probably overkill for no real value.

CT

 

[pogrelis97]

Good feedback. Glad to see another owner that has a larger shop with a larger system. Most of the posters and viewers on this site have smaller spaces which mini splits, PTAC, and window units seem to work fine. Or they only heat with NG, propane, oil or wood.

Decided to go forced air. Could not see running 6 mini heads around the building being cost effective (20'x20' per head).

Is your building of similar construction?

Do you heat and cool?

CT

I only heat at the moment, I'm looking for a good deal on a 5ton heat pump to hook up though.
Building is a 40x60x14 pole barn with no ceiling and standard fiberglass insulation. I'm putting a ceiling in this summer which will hopefully help my heating costs.
I have the Honeywell thermostat and haven't had one issue with it since installing two years ago. It tracks how much energy it uses although I've never paid attention to it.

 

[MattT]

Looking at different options for hour logging. Would like to log all cycles. May use a datalogger (Red Lion?). Probably overkill for no real value.

Yeah Red Lion is probably overkill

Regards value logging can let you know when something is going wrong with the equipment before the light company sends you a $500 bill.

 

[nsula_country]

Yeah Red Lion is probably overkill

Regards value logging can let you know when something is going wrong with the equipment before the light company sends you a $500 bill.

Tis true. Sounds like you have controls experience too. Only way I'd use a Red Lion Data Station is if it was used or an Engineering Sample! Have some Rockwell products laying around though.

Plan is to use some Ubiquiti equipment to beam the Internet to the shop. Haven't researched or decided what is needed yet. It is only about 300 yards, clear line of sight. Then use a Ubiquiti access point inside.

Once I have established a network, then WiFi tstat and remote data logging can occur.

CT

 

[nsula_country]

Unboxing party!

View media item 90136

View media item 90137

Have more to upload. Assembling round pipe duct.

Stay tuned!

CT

 

[nsula_country]

Have had some time to work on putting duct together. Have assembled the 16", 14", 12" and 10" duct for 1 run of about 26'. This will be repeated again for the other half of the run.

Drill a pilot hole for jigsaw. Snips leave a messy finish.

View media item 90256

26 ft of assembled pipe. Now needs its twin to appear.

View media item 90257

Alternate view from the no flange box end.

View media item 90258
Next step is to wrap these with foil/bubble/foil (R6). Not for heat, but for condensation while cooling with air conditioning. Even though it is a "conditioned space" condensation can and will occur with our high humidity.

Enjoy and Thank You for stopping in to check on my build. Its 60% Extreem DYI and 40% Engineer... Back to work!

CT

 

[nsula_country]

Updates to the build..

It has been a little while. In spare time I have reached this point. 1 section of duct is up! 7 more sections to go. Will fill in uninsulated sections after assembling ducts.

All assembled ducts with foil/bubble/foil wrapped. R-4.6 direct to duct... Duct in conditioned space, condensation control. This product if installed with 3/4" airspace (spacers) will meet R6 code. To meet R8 code they have a 1" thick version.

View media item 90393

Mockup to test fit.

View media item 90394

More "pookie" application. Good stuff!

View media item 90395

1st section of 8 total. Looking like something!

View media item 90396

Another view of the initial 1st section.


View media item 90397

Hello... Luke, I am your Father!

View media item 90398

Thanks for stopping in!

CT

 

[aunsafe2015]

Updates to the build..



It has been a little while. In spare time I have reached this point. 1 section of duct is up! 7 more sections to go. Will fill in uninsulated sections after assembling ducts.



All assembled ducts with foil/bubble/foil wrapped. R-4.6 direct to duct... Duct in conditioned space, condensation control. This product if installed with 3/4" airspace (spacers) will meet R6 code. To meet R8 code they have a 1" thick version.



View media item 90393




Mockup to test fit.



View media item 90394




More "pookie" application. Good stuff!



View media item 90395




1st section of 8 total. Looking like something!



View media item 90396




Another view of the initial 1st section.





View media item 90397




Hello... Luke, I am your Father!



View media item 90398




Thanks for stopping in!



CT

Looks good man. I wish the ductwork in my house were that clean.

Are you reducing the size of the trunk lines the further they go from away from the plenum box?

 

[nsula_country]

Yes. All outlets are 10" feeding 12"x12"x10" insulated "no-flange" boxes.

Layout is 16" to 14" to 12" to 10".

CT

 

[nsula_country]

35* to 50* in less than an hour... North wind blowing and sleeting! It was 80* Thursday!

CT

 

[Nlped]

Love the install! I can vouch for how amazing it is to have HVAC in a shop in the Hot & HuMiD south. I have a 36'x46'x14' metal shop that I added a 5-ton all electric system to last June and it's been an absolute Godsend! My most expensive bill so far was for December (only $95) and that was due to all the unusually cold days and I keep the thermostat set on 45 when I'm not in there. But in the cold I run it up to 60 and on hot days 78, which seem to be great "working" temperatures.

I got the unit (air handler and heat pump) through a friend who owns an commercial HVAC company, and I did the electrical and preliminary install. My buddy helped me with the ductwork (which is awesome, BTW) and the final install & charge.

Here are a few gratuitous shots of mine The last shot is of my favorite pieces..the drop to skirt the beam in the middle of the building. I have since adjusted the vent angles to keep all the "spots" comfortable throughout the shop.

 

[nsula_country]

Love the install! I can vouch for how amazing it is to have HVAC in a shop in the Hot & HuMiD south. I have a 36'x46'x14' metal shop that I added a 5-ton all electric system to last June and it's been an absolute Godsend! My most expensive bill so far was for December (only $95) and that was due to all the unusually cold days and I keep the thermostat set on 45 when I'm not in there. But in the cold I run it up to 60 and on hot days 78, which seem to be great "working" temperatures.

I got the unit (air handler and heat pump) through a friend who owns an commercial HVAC company, and I did the electrical and preliminary install. My buddy helped me with the ductwork (which is awesome, BTW) and the final install & charge.

Here are a few gratuitous shots of mine The last shot is of my favorite pieces..the drop to skirt the beam in the middle of the building. I have since adjusted the vent angles to keep all the "spots" comfortable throughout the shop.

Nlped,

Your duct work looks awesome! There was skill in fabricating the drop around the I-Beam.

I looked at using insulated rectangular duct and just cut out for registers. Insulated rectangular and square duct is pricey! Round priced out cheaper, but still pricey!. Also I had originally thought about hanging the air handler and running duct centrally down the center. Plans changed!

Very, very nice. What part of the South are you in?

CT

 

[Nlped]

Very, very nice. What part of the South are you in?



CT

Thanks! It certainly helps that my buddy owns and builds commercial hvac duct work. Made it very easy to figure out what route to go. I’ve actually added 2 additional ducts since the pictures I posted to cool under the 12’x14’ loft I have too.

I’m in central Alabama. It get quite muggy here in the summer, so the a/c is great for the cooling, but absolutely wonderful for knocking down the humidity!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nsula_country]

Humidity control was the primary reason for going with a full system. And when trying to work at 6pm in August when its 110* inside.

Heat is needed about 1 month out of the year!

CT

 

[rattle_snake]

You're cheating buy installing HVAC in the winter months. Should only be done in July! haha
Going to be spoiled for sure this summer.

 

[Nlped]

You're cheating buy installing HVAC in the winter months. Should only be done in July! haha
Going to be spoiled for sure this summer.

I agree! It was about 247 degrees up at the top of my shop when we were hanging the ductwork. I did most of it at night just to knock it down to 230’ish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nadogail]

You're cheating buy installing HVAC in the winter months. Should only be done in July! haha
Going to be spoiled for sure this summer.

Cheating My Burro, this is someone working Smarter Not Harder.

 

[nsula_country]

Cheating My Burro, this is someone working Smarter Not Harder.

Thanks! By March it will be a sweat box!

CT

 

[rburke65]

Nicely done.....and yes, I jealous.

 

[rattle_snake]

Been 2 weekends the install should be complete... Pics of finished system and thermodynamic assessment??

 

[nsula_country]

Yeah.... No...

Finished ducts 2 weekends ago. Was out of town last week. Not much happened this past weekend. Will upload duct pics soon. Maybe this weekend I'll set the condenser. Then I can perform the thermodynamic assessment evaluation!

Thanks for following!

CT

 

[nsula_country]

UPDATE!

Finally thought to upload these. Shop is a wreck from the past 2 years working ON the shop. Now that I want to work IN the shop, I have started cleaning, organizing and tossing. I have become much less selective is what to toss. Making progress. Once I get it cleaned up some, I will post a pic of the full duct run.

Still haven't set condenser and sweat in line set. It has been cold and nasty. I know it's only in the 20's to 40's, but when humidity is +90% and north wind blowing I don't want to be outside.

Electric heat has been doing well. Last night was about 38* in the shop. Had it above 50* within an hour. Need to find the electric bill and post how much its costing to run... May motivate me to get HP going!

South Duct Run

View media item 91021

North Duct Run

View media item 91022

Random picture from trying to clean up and organize the shop...

View media item 91023
Did not realize that I have almost 110lbs of welding rods. Well, if they are were all full 110 lbs. Guarantee there is AT LEAST 70 lbs there.

Finally I'm cleaning up the shop to make room for a new project. A project with 4 tires... Picking it up Saturday if all goes to plan. Rattle_Snake will approve!

Enjoy

CT

 

[Nlped]

Duct work looks great!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nsula_country]

Another Update.

Received the electric bill for February. About 350 kWh was electric heat, 20kW heat strip, 68k BTU.

View media item 91033

View media item 91034

Only used heat on uncomfortable cold evenings after work. Would raise temp from 35*-45* to about 60* and maintain 60* until shut down for night. Electric bill went up about $14. Maybe ran unit 10 hours total. But made a heck of a difference!

Heat Pump will be set to maintain about 45*-50* for next winter. Need to finish the condenser unit and prepare for warmer weather and AC!

CT

 

[nsula_country]

UPDATE

Finally finished the HVAC install. Only ran it a little last night. Dropped ~10* in a reasonable amount of time. Unreal feeling to have cold air blowing throughout the shop.

5 Ton Heat Pump

View media item 92666
Duct Seal, old school

View media item 92667
CT