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Above 1200 Sq/FT 86's 20HP shop

Wokspaces above 1200 squarefeet.
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86turbodsl

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Annnd to top it off, i ripped open my leg on an audi part same exact place as yesterday, and on the way out of the shop, noticed that one of the bolts on the forklift ram cylinder had lost it's nut and fell out. So it was steering all on the one side again. I'm going to have to lock nut everything i think. I'm not having any wins today at all.
 
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bimmer1980

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Walk away and take a deep breath ...

Can you check the starter Bendix on the Namco? If you pull the starter, does that allow you to check the flywheel? At least for basic tightness?
I recall that you did have some issues with the threads for the bolt holding the flywheel on. If you were hesitant to really get it tight, there's a fair chance that the flywheel loosened up. Any wobble on that would make all sorts of grinding sounds...

Good luck!!
 
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86turbodsl

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I was able to get my hand around the back on the flywheel. Doesn't feel loose. I put it all back together and fresh rtv on the gaskets. Will have to wait until tomorrow for the cure. Everything else looks fine. The starter is an ancient prestolite. I found a new bendix for it on ebay, and had installed that when engine went back in. It has always sounded terrible.
I'd love to get a new modern starter for it. Don't know what would fit though. I found a new starter for the Oliver on ebay, gear reduction. that thing has been worth it's weight in gold since i put it in. It's probably a common fitment, but who knows what i would have to search for to get the right one. I'm going to go back to cleaning while i wait on this part.
 
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Strouty

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I would see if there are any manufacturer’s numbers, I suspect you are right, a lot of that stuff is generic or has commonality with things that are still readily available.
 
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86turbodsl

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it's a prestolite MBG4134. So far i haven't found a cross reference for these things. I know 10T, ccw. There were a ton of manufacturers that crossed that thing, but they're all makes i've never heard of and all same design. I'd want something more modern if i swap it.
 
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86turbodsl

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I can find exact copies, i'd like to find a modern gear reduction starter that has the same pinion tooth count, diameter, and hole pattern. That's the hard part! :)
 
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86turbodsl

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Ok, i gave it a few hours to cure, went out to try and start. NOPE. WILL NOT start. I have spark. With both plugs in, the starter is laboring VERY hard to spin it over. Like an ether-locked diesel engine. With one plug out, it will spin sort of free. With both plugs in, no setting of throttle or choke will make it take off. And i get the occasional backfire of sooty smoke. The only thing that makes any sense is the timing is off. BUT since this is waste spark, and the timing is set by a magnet embedded in the flywheel, the ONLY way that spark timing could be off is if the flywheel moved on the crankshaft. It feels solid. Crank keyway sheared? All i know is the engine HAS to come out now. That's tomorrow's problem.

I'm into the beer now...
 
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bimmer1980

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It doesn't take much of a "loose" crank bolt or nut for it to lose pressure on the tapered snout. Then it will quickly shear the key. Of course, when it shears the key, it will have enough dingleberrys from shearing that it will appear tight....

Hopefully it is just that...

Otherwise, a cam lobe or a lifter that has an issue? I think this is further down the option chain, but putting it out there...

Also, had an issue on a small engine where it dropped the valve seat out of the aluminum head. This cocked the valve open and of course, bent the valve... Yeah, that made the fix more interesting... I staked the valve seat back in and had to get a new valve on Amazon....
 
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86turbodsl

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I couldn't live with myself to let it sit there overnight, so i went and knocked the engine out of there. Geez i hated doing that, with less than an hour on that engine since i put in there. It's out on the floor for overnight and i'll get into it in the morning.

supposed to storm all night and most of tomorrow, so hopefully i can make SOME headway on it. Because frankly, i have a mountain of stuff sitting against the man door and i closed the overhead door down to just a foot or so above concrete to try and slow the rain/wind down. Also means i have to roll my fat *ss back under the door to get back in.

Now, assuming the key sheared, what are my options here? I snugged that thing down pretty good upon assembly. I don't know that i can get it any tighter.
 
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kent_323is

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You gotta get the flywheel off first and confirm if it is the key sheared or not. If it is, it's likely the half moon key... those aren't hard to find. The you have have to make sure you get that nut tight, and I mean tight!!!
That sooty backfire is a pretty good clue that timing is off.

If you have the engine out, then getting the flywheel off is not much farther. It's best if you have a puller, and if the flywheel has threaded holes, then it's pretty easy to get the flywheel off. If not.... well, a really big hammer, and that's important that it is a heavy hammer, a block of wood, and pull on it by hand while you hit the end of the snout with the hammer and the wood protecting it. Do NOT use a pry bar... bad things happen then as you likely know!

Good luck, I know it's frustrating, but you've ruled out most of the other items.
 
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Strouty

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Was this the engine that you had issues with the crank originally? I remember something about one a while back.

As for the starter, I would contact Wilson directly, they seem to make most starters these days.
 
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86turbodsl

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Yes, this is the engine with the crank fubar. I eventually sent it with the helicoils. I put 2 helicoils in there too. I've gone about as far as i can go with the crank.
 
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86turbodsl

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Ok, here's what we know. I originally put in 2 helicoils back to back, and it turns out you can't do that. So i have been unable to get one of them out, or tap further than the 1 in front. In fact i'm driving both further back as i try. Now that's directionally correct from a bolt stress standpoint, but to get full engagement, i am going to have to cut down a bolt to exactly the right length to bottom out on the first one or fish one of them out. anybody ever get a helicoil back out before?

And also, i did not install them originally with locktite. I think that was probably also a mistake.
 
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Monza Harry

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86' use a small pic and then progressively bigger implements and pry twist etc. until you can grab the top piece of insert and simply turn it out. They spin out easier than a screw if you get them from the top as they collapse as you turn them. Harry
 
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Strouty

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Maybe even a really sharp chisel, cut down the middle, then push the sides into the center? How deep are we talking? Another thought might be to try and use red loctite on a bolt and then see if the helicoil would back out, but it sounds like it may be beyond that already. Just brainstorming at this point.

Reverse drill bit??
 
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86turbodsl

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I looked for an official helicoil tool, found one, then just matched it by grinding down an old broken flat blade screwdriver to fit. Sharp edges on both sides, insert into helicoil, sharp whack on end, and turn it out.

turns out i did use an extra long helicoil originally. I got the nearly 1 in long ones for that size. I think lack of locktite is probably why it didn't hold. I'm assuming so anyway. I have to find my helicoil tools again, and i'll install another with locktite this time and try again tomorrow. I only need to get to 40 ftlbs. It's beyond what helicoil is stating capacity is though for the standard ones. Unsure how much the addl length gives me.
 
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86turbodsl

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I found my helicoil tools, chased the threads in the crank, cleaned it very well with brake cleaner, and loaded up an extended helicoil, coated with blue loctite and sent it.
 
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86turbodsl

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This is my hail mary. If this doesn't work, then i have to get either a new crank or repower. I'm tempted to put in the little Yanmar but unsure what an indoor diesel would be like. I don't think it would be much worse than the Onan. That thing burns oil and gets the shop quite smokey.
 
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Strouty

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All true, I am super sensitive to engine fumes, so I went electric first, very glad I did. I think the Namco is a bit smaller than my Baker. It would be cool to have a teeny tiny forklift, but I had to balance things with size and capacity. I think I can pick a bit over 3000 pounds and I can pretty much maneuver wherever I need to in my space, of course I also have to use a pallet jack for the tightest spots.
 
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bimmer1980

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Careful of mission scope creep....

What is the diameter of the bolt going into the crank snout?

What grade of bolt are you using?

To me, if you get plenty of thread engagement, you torque it well. The other thing, make sure to polish up both the snout and the bore of flywheel to ensure you get good smooth contact. It's the friction between the snout and the bore (produced by the taper and the compression from the bolt) that keeps it from spinning. In a way, the key is there just to help with initial alignment and some resistance to rotation.

Hence, you want enought torque to produce enough bolt stretch to develop the compression force.

All that to say, if the heliocoil doesnt work, I would set up for retapping new, larger threads into the snout....
 
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bulletpruf

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bimmer1980 said:
It's the friction between the snout and the bore (produced by the taper and the compression from the bolt) that keeps it from spinning. In a way, the key is there just to help with initial alignment and some resistance to rotation.
Click to expand...

Learned this when I started hotrodding chainsaws -- you can advance the ignition timing by shaving .020" or so off the crank key on the flywheel side; that's a fair amount because the keys are around .075" thick. Anyway, I've never sheared a key because the key is really only used to position the flywheel on the crank; the taper and compression is what keeps it in place.
 
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86turbodsl

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Yeah i agree, but i can't find anything published to the contrary. I'm shooting for a clean interface and full torque. If it's less, i guess i got a problem.
 
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Lotusnut

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My thoughts on the ability of the helicoil to sustain the torque stretch of the bolt. The engagement surface area of the helicoil to crankshaft shaft threads is greater than the engagement of the bolt to helicoil by a small amount. If the bolt steel is the same or less in strength to the cranckshaft the bolt should shear the bolt threads before any other interface.
I would torque the bolt to spec once the helicoil is locked in chemically to keep the helicoil from moving.
 
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