Air lines.. what are you using?

[DocsMachine]

Great videos, Gear. I'm gonna have to bookmark those.

What gets me, is everyone who uses PVC says they do so in large part due to cost. It's cheaper than other systems.

And that may well be the case, but what are we talking about maybe a couple hundred if it's a big system?

A Max-Line kit can be had on sale for what, $250? An equivalent setup in PVC might be what, $200? You're still gonna need to buy QDs and some pipe fittings.

My Max Line setup, which took two 3/4" kits, one 1/2" kit and a fistful of extras (including a separator-filter for the compressor, additional dual-QD outlets, etc.) was pretty spendy at just under a grand. But a PVC setup would still have been over $700.

I see guys bragging about their two-post lifts, their Snap-On toolboxes, their big-screen TV in the 'man cave' corner, the hot rod or musclecar project they're working on... and $300 is a bridge too far for a 'tool' you'll be using nearly every day?

Never made sense to me.

Doc.

 

[Renegade1LI]

Schedule 40 black steel pipe is the standard, it's cheap & easy to work with, will resist impact & probably won't get a nail through it. We just built a bus garage for the NYCMTA, thousands of feet of sch 40 air piping.

 

[akdiesel]

Great videos, Gear. I'm gonna have to bookmark those.

What gets me, is everyone who uses PVC says they do so in large part due to cost. It's cheaper than other systems.

And that may well be the case, but what are we talking about maybe a couple hundred if it's a big system?

A Max-Line kit can be had on sale for what, $250? An equivalent setup in PVC might be what, $200? You're still gonna need to buy QDs and some pipe fittings.

My Max Line setup, which took two 3/4" kits, one 1/2" kit and a fistful of extras (including a separator-filter for the compressor, additional dual-QD outlets, etc.) was pretty spendy at just under a grand. But a PVC setup would still have been over $700.

I see guys bragging about their two-post lifts, their Snap-On toolboxes, their big-screen TV in the 'man cave' corner, the hot rod or musclecar project they're working on... and $300 is a bridge too far for a 'tool' you'll be using nearly every day?

Never made sense to me.

Doc.

This brings up a good point. Lots of money is spent on air compressors, driers, and ect for air use but they some tend to skimp on one of the main components of this system. The piping.
The Blue jacketed aluminum piping aka maxline or others, copper, black piping, just to name a few have proven them selves as being proper equipment for this purpose.
I use Swagelok tubing and fittings and this has also been proven to be effective. Not as well as a heat transfer but more so as longevity and ease of expanding for future needs.

 

[lilscorpion]

In contrast, watch this video, fast forward to 3:30 to see how PEX fails.

Plain PEX will deteriorate from UV, but look what happens when it fails. For this reason, plain PEX is worth the risk, PVC is not. I only have the air compressor on when I’m around, so PEX would be ok for me.

I remember it, totally forgot about that test on the BuildShow. So the question is, how is fluid pressure different than gas pressure? It seems like running Pex A or B would be plenty strong for running shop air however I recall that some shark bite fittings have explicit disclaimers against gas usage IIRC because they’ve not been tested with gas. I typically use copper but Pex would be easier and much cheaper if it’s truly up to the task.

 

[Bclinehand]

I was all set to use a rapid air setup........BUT.......the neighbor has it in his garage and it let go in the middle of a run last night........luckily he heard the compressor running and got away without burning it up..........going to rethink my setup now


Sent from my iPad using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[eastbaysubaru]

I was all set to use a rapid air setup........BUT.......the neighbor has it in his garage and it let go in the middle of a run last night........luckily he heard the compressor running and got away without burning it up..........going to rethink my setup now


Sent from my iPad using The Garage Journal mobile app

One anecdotal experience shouldn't put you off of the Rapid Air stuff. This is the only failure I've heard about on the site and there are MANY users here (myself included).

-Brian

 

[DocsMachine]

I was all set to use a rapid air setup........BUT.......the neighbor has it in his garage and it let go in the middle of a run last night.

-My Maxline setup has been pressurized 24-7 for over two years now. Not a single issue so far. If I'm not using the air, the compressor might run on it's own as often as once a month.

Doc.

 

[Stuart in MN]

So the question is, how is fluid pressure different than gas pressure?

Gas is compressible, while fluid is not (well, you can actually compress it a tiny bit but for all practical purposes it's not.) If a water line breaks, the water inside just squirts out. If an air line breaks, the compressed air inside expands rapidly as it comes out.

This is the big reason for not using PVC for air lines. PVC isn't ductile, so if it's used for an air line and it fails, the rapidly expanding air escaping can break off shards and blow them around the room like shrapnel. Metal is ductile, so if it's used for an air line and it fails, the metal just tends to bend instead of breaking off in bits.

As for Pex, since it's flexible obviously it's not going to shatter, but to be honest I'm not sure why it's not supposed to be used, other than if the manufacturers haven't certified it for that use.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

As for Pex, since it's flexible obviously it's not going to shatter, but to be honest I'm not sure why it's not supposed to be used, other than if the manufacturers haven't certified it for that use.

I don't remember which, but one (or maybe muliple) of the PEX manufacturing plants uses their own PEX for air lines to run various parts of the plant. I suspect it might be more of a fitting issue and the propensity of even a very low viscosity liquid to plug up the tiniest of passages that air might be able to leak out of.

 

[allinon72]

In an industrial setting, if you want to run flexible tubing, air brake tubing is cheaper with more fitting options and is more flexible than pex.

 

[PhantomEB]

Black pipe is best but copper pipe looks so much better.

 

[gearhead1]

..................As for Pex, since it's flexible obviously it's not going to shatter, but to be honest I'm not sure why it's not supposed to be used, other than if the manufacturers haven't certified it for that use.

From what I’ve been able to research, the standard PEX is not UV resistant. There’s no need for it to be inside the walls of the house. Over time the UV rays degrade it, and it will fail. If I remember correctly, the RapidAir PEX has aluminum in it and has additives for UV resistance.

 

[gearhead1]

I don't remember which, but one (or maybe muliple) of the PEX manufacturing plants uses their own PEX for air lines to run various parts of the plant. I suspect it might be more of a fitting issue and the propensity of even a very low viscosity liquid to plug up the tiniest of passages that air might be able to leak out of.

My neighbor has a plumbing business. He’s had standard PEX in his workshop for about 15 years without issue.

The other thing I always do is turn the air valve off AND turn the compressor when I’m not active in the workshop.

 

[gearhead1]

Great videos, Gear. I'm gonna have to bookmark those.

What gets me, is everyone who uses PVC says they do so in large part due to cost. It's cheaper than other systems.

And that may well be the case, but what are we talking about maybe a couple hundred if it's a big system?

A Max-Line kit can be had on sale for what, $250? An equivalent setup in PVC might be what, $200? You're still gonna need to buy QDs and some pipe fittings.

My Max Line setup, which took two 3/4" kits, one 1/2" kit and a fistful of extras (including a separator-filter for the compressor, additional dual-QD outlets, etc.) was pretty spendy at just under a grand. But a PVC setup would still have been over $700.

I see guys bragging about their two-post lifts, their Snap-On toolboxes, their big-screen TV in the 'man cave' corner, the hot rod or musclecar project they're working on... and $300 is a bridge too far for a 'tool' you'll be using nearly every day?

Never made sense to me.

Doc.

Around here, PVC is cheaper, like not even close, and I think that is one of the attractions to it. It glues fast, like faster than threading iron pipe or sweating copper fittings. I have a pipe threader and can sweat copper fittings, but something like PVC or PEX is a lot less work.

$2.98 for 10’ of 3/4” diameter schedule 40 PVC
$20.76 for 10’ of 3/4” diameter black iron pipe
$25.20 for 10’ of 3/4” diameter copper type L pipe


https://www.lowes.com/pd/Charlotte-Pipe-3-4-in-dia-x-10-ft-L-480-PSI-PVC-Pipe/3133085

https://www.lowes.com/pd/LDR-3-4-in-x-10-ft-150-PSI-Black-Iron-Pipe/3538958

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Cambridge-Lee-3-4-in-x-10-ft-Copper-L-Pipe/1000044585


For me, I want to put it in the wall, and that’s going to be hard to do with rigid tubing since I have blocking every 4’ where the OSB edges are.

I agree with you, $300 is nothing compared to the other stuff. I’m not one to cheap out then have a ton of air leaks. I really don’t like air leaks!

For me, I have a lot of PEX left over from when I put a water line in the ground to the workshop, I figure I’d use the leftover for airline and researched it. I think it’s low risk.

 

[sberry]

One thing to consider is air is needed where it's needed, not always everywhere. Regulators can be shared.

 

[sberry]

One thing to consider is air is needed where it's needed, not always everywhere. Regulators can be shared.

Location location location is everything. One well placed is better than 2 poor and sometimes less is better. I can reach everywhere, overlap 2x really without moving a hose to another hydrant. You can hang some air hose but in most places a reel really disciplines it, just simple hanging ends up on the floor.

 

[lilscorpion]

Gas is compressible, while fluid is not (well, you can actually compress it a tiny bit but for all practical purposes it's not.) If a water line breaks, the water inside just squirts out. If an air line breaks, the compressed air inside expands rapidly as it comes out.



This is the big reason for not using PVC for air lines. PVC isn't ductile, so if it's used for an air line and it fails, the rapidly expanding air escaping can break off shards and blow them around the room like shrapnel. Metal is ductile, so if it's used for an air line and it fails, the metal just tends to bend instead of breaking off in bits.



As for Pex, since it's flexible obviously it's not going to shatter, but to be honest I'm not sure why it's not supposed to be used, other than if the manufacturers haven't certified it for that use.

Compressible...huh, that makes sense. I’ve used black pipe and PVC both. Black pipe rusted and PVC exploded just like everyone say it does. PVC was before there was much info on the web about it and I was lucky enough to be at my shop and in the office when it failed. Made a hell of a bang...

Everything leads me to believe that Pex should work - it shouldn’t be dangerous and it’s working pressure is quite a bit more than what I have in the shop. It’s cheap enough I might just try it, why not. Will certainly be easier to get home and install much faster.

 

[lilscorpion]

For me, I have a lot of PEX left over from when I put a water line in the ground to the workshop, I figure I’d use the leftover for airline and researched it. I think it’s low risk.

Guess it depends what kind you have leftover. This is what I have and it’s rated at far less than my system will likely hold. In full transparency, I don’t know what temp the compressed air is and if ambient temp matters at all. If so, air is probably warmer near the air compressor and my shop can get to 90’s in the summer. Seems maybe like this stuff is a no-go.

 

[DocsMachine]

Around here, PVC is cheaper, like not even close, and I think that is one of the attractions to it.

[snip]

$2.98 for 10’ of 3/4” diameter schedule 40 PVC.

That's pretty much my point. PVC is cheaper than iron or copper, yes, but not that much less than MaxLine.

100 feet of PVC pipe according to your given price is about $30. But that doesn't count elbows, tees, glue, anything to attach it to the walls, any end fittings or manifolds, etc. Just the pipe. Figure another $50-$100 or so for all that.

A complete 100 foot Maxline kit with manifold blocks, wall clips and tees is $190.

In other words, the difference between a system designed for compressed air, and one made out of PVC, is maybe a hundred bucks.

Doc.

 

[Strouty]

I ran black iron thinking it would be cheaper, after dealing with it and adding all the unions and other fittings, it was not cheaper, easier, or faster. Next time I do it, I will probably use a section of copper, then go to rigid fancy bits made by whoever has the best pipe at the time.

For everyone that is going straight out of the compressor and into something plastic or rubber, you need a section of copper, aluminum, or steel to condense the moisture, otherwise it will condense at your tool. Even having a fancy water/oil separator right after the compressor will do next to nothing. Of course you could also buy a refrigerated air dryer.

 

[DocsMachine]

I hate it when things condense at my tool.

Doc.

 

[Greg5OH]

i just buried the 1/2" rapid air (3/8) Id from my shop to my garage, I have about 120 ft total run. Run up and through the walls with PVC conduit. Powers my coats 9024e tire machine and hunter road force balancer just fine.
The biggest key being upgrading from a single stage for a nice 17 cfm 2 stage. I have 150psi in the 5gal tire machine reserve tank at all times now.
Neither of those machines are high volume users. I think 6 cfm is spec on the tire changer.

For blast cabinets id definitly run at least 1/2" ID

 

[allinon72]

i just buried the 1/2" rapid air (3/8) Id from my shop to my garage, I have about 120 ft total run. Run up and through the walls with PVC conduit. Powers my coats 9024e tire machine and hunter road force balancer just fine.
The biggest key being upgrading from a single stage for a nice 17 cfm 2 stage. I have 150psi in the 5gal tire machine reserve tank at all times now.
Neither of those machines are high volume users. I think 6 cfm is spec on the tire changer.

For blast cabinets id definitly run at least 1/2" ID

I understand that it works, but in my opinion a run of that length should be 3/4” minimum.

 

[gearhead1]

That's pretty much my point. PVC is cheaper than iron or copper, yes, but not that much less than MaxLine.

100 feet of PVC pipe according to your given price is about $30. But that doesn't count elbows, tees, glue, anything to attach it to the walls, any end fittings or manifolds, etc. Just the pipe. Figure another $50-$100 or so for all that.

A complete 100 foot Maxline kit with manifold blocks, wall clips and tees is $190.

In other words, the difference between a system designed for compressed air, and one made out of PVC, is maybe a hundred bucks.

Doc.

Ahh, I got it now. I agree, not worth the $100 to have PVC.

 

[gearhead1]

Guess it depends what kind you have leftover. This is what I have and it’s rated at far less than my system will likely hold. In full transparency, I don’t know what temp the compressed air is and if ambient temp matters at all. If so, air is probably warmer near the air compressor and my shop can get to 90’s in the summer. Seems maybe like this stuff is a no-go.

Depends on your system pressure. Mine is 120psi, so I’m going to try it.

 

[Greg5OH]

I understand that it works, but in my opinion a run of that length should be 3/4” minimum.

It would be better no doubt about it.
But so far, no issues noted and I can run the bead blaster consecutively over and over with no impact on available pressure.
the 1/2 pex like stuff is far easier to work with vs the rigid like 3/4 max line. I would have used at least 200$ in their fittings alone and probably even bigger than 1.25 on the buried conduit through which my 1/2 inch pex and ethernet line run. Total cost for that airline would probably 450$ ish all said and done vs about 150$ this current project cost me

 

[Notgrownup]

This is what I used, inside the walls with 4 drops.. love it.

 

[Citation]

Great videos, Gear. I'm gonna have to bookmark those.

What gets me, is everyone who uses PVC says they do so in large part due to cost. It's cheaper than other systems.

And that may well be the case, but what are we talking about maybe a couple hundred if it's a big system?

A Max-Line kit can be had on sale for what, $250? An equivalent setup in PVC might be what, $200? You're still gonna need to buy QDs and some pipe fittings.

My Max Line setup, which took two 3/4" kits, one 1/2" kit and a fistful of extras (including a separator-filter for the compressor, additional dual-QD outlets, etc.) was pretty spendy at just under a grand. But a PVC setup would still have been over $700.

I see guys bragging about their two-post lifts, their Snap-On toolboxes, their big-screen TV in the 'man cave' corner, the hot rod or musclecar project they're working on... and $300 is a bridge too far for a 'tool' you'll be using nearly every day?

Never made sense to me.

Doc.

I've seen PVC used a few times over the years. I think it's simple, most people don't know you shouldn't. Really, prior to things like the Rapid Air kits PVC was easier and cheaper to do than black pipe or copper. Win-win right (other than the explosion part). Also, given the good pressure rating on PVC it certainly seems like a good choice (again, other than the explosion part). I also think a lot of people are not familiar with things like Maxline. It's not like the typical home store (or plumbing supply house?) has the stuff in stock. Copper, black pipe and PVC are all common and easy to source. Hence I can understand why they would be the go to for many people (even if PVC shouldn't).

Based on the specs PEX is a bad choice. It's pressure rating is marginal for the task and you have to keep UV light off of it. All that seems like a great reason to say no. However, like many have said, the risk of a failure is largely limited to the system dumps air and the pump may run continuously.

 

[toyotadriver]

I’ve run PEX for airlines without issue on a 120psi system without issue. Mine are all copper now.

 

[PhantomEB]

After I used some of the airlines yesterday along with copper perimeter system, do do a honey do in the kitchen, I told her I gonna put a 100’ reel by the door/drill press(soon to be milling machine)....she goes why not, then you can do **** in the yard!

 

[sberry]

The best is done that way. There is a tendancy to try to pre plan and future proof every fitting and things evolve. I could really do all I do with 2 reels cover about 4K work area and another to get 2K more and the outside another 2K or so on the apron area.
But I have them located to reduce hose on floor and have 3 whips hung in addition, no moving parts. The best designs are usually modified to some extent after a guy gets his feel around the place, we had a guy come here and want to put 6 regs and drops in a 14 x 20 garage.
As I mention in other threads and maybe even in this, I am all about tailoring but my vision of what it takes to meet the demand over the years has changed, what becomes important and what was an obvious brain fart I had early on. What has endured and what has sat idle. My last revision I removed 60 ft of pipe and last before that was a hydrant move of about 20 ft in storage building when a parking spot changed and let me behind a truck and had to add extra hose for blasting on occasion, it wasnt a deal breaker but just another step added to prep and put away.
Its almost instinctual to wanna drop an air hose in case its needed, it really is, hard to hang or wind up makes it worse and its always on the floor, always got a twist in it. Same for getting general tools out, I find if I hang up and put the wrong ones away vs drop them on the bench I am almost cleaned up by the time I am done. I am air dependent, it was a big part of it and took a while to polish it all out with the least,,, so to speak,,, or more correctly have it well utilized and give overlapping coverage both directions.
Overlap not so essential in smaller garages. Basic coverage is, making it easy to do tires is. Easier it is, the less chore, the less excuse not to do the work. I do this **** cause I got to, win the lottery and I drop it all. We do so much better if wheel removal, exhaust and brake work is not so limited due to the constraint of the plant so to speak

 

[Citation]

For the home garage people, don't discount the benefit of a cheap 3/8" hose "permanently" installed between the compressor and where air is often needed.
In my garage I picked up some cheap PVC air hose (the cheap stuff that gets inflexible in the cold, not PVC pipe) and ran a line through the rafters from my compressor to the garage door. Normally there are a bunch of bikes/mower/etc between the compressor and that door. It makes it a pain to fill bike/car tires. Adding the "permanent" hose addresses that problem for under $20. I've connected a 50' coil hose to the end next to the garage door. At the compressor end I still just plug the hose in.

My brother and I did something similar with his garage.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6994338&postcount=7
We were looking to do the job very much on the cheap so we just used some 3/8" cheapie hose from the wall, across the rafter to a drop in the center of his garage.

This setup is about easy, not good flow etc. The 3/8" hose was directly coupled so no losses in couplers. This compressor is really over kill for his needs so the limitations of this system vs a proper installed system aren't a big deal. The important thing is, this was very low cost yet very handy. The drop is just where he needs air for bikes/mower etc. It is also sufficient for his limited painting needs. For those who might be on the fence about doing any type of distributed air, this is a very cheap was to get something that is no worse than running a long hose.