American Pacemaker - WW2 16x30 back from the dead

[86turbodsl]

Good point. Seal should easily take that.


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[86turbodsl]

Got the chuck off tonight. I heated the nut with the torch, it rolled right off, and the nut bottomed on the lathe and started to pushoff the chuck. It popped off with a bang. Now to get it into the evaporust. That was the last part of the lathe that was stuck.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Got the chuck off tonight. I heated with the torch, it rolled right off, and the nut bottomed on the lathe and started to push off the chuck. It popped off with a bang. Now to get it into the evaporust. That was the last part of the lathe that was stuck.

Good to hear.

No progress on the 16" down here. We were supposed to go look at it this weekend while visiting family where it was, but the guy has been a total flake and wasn't going to be home when he said he was and just been a real pain to deal with. I had gotten a metal chip in my eye Friday and was getting quite irritable so we didn't wait around on him. I'm not sure if we'll get it or not

I did look at a Monarch 16CY in the flesh. You don't really realize just how beefy these machines are until you see them in the flesh.

 

[86turbodsl]

Good to hear.

No progress on the 16" down here. We were supposed to go look at it this weekend while visiting family where it was, but the guy has been a total flake and wasn't going to be home when he said he was and just been a real pain to deal with. I had gotten a metal chip in my eye Friday and was getting quite irritable so we didn't wait around on him. I'm not sure if we'll get it or not

I did look at a Monarch 16CY in the flesh. You don't really realize just how beefy these machines are until you see them in the flesh.

Ouch. I have had metal in my eye before. NOT FUN. Hope all is better with that. ANd that your lathe expedition works out. These things can get huge. I'm super impressed with the capabilities.

 

[86turbodsl]

Fiddled around with the 12" 3 jaw tonight and finally figured out what happened. Somebody milled the L1 threads off. What a waste. Probably wanted to sit it on a bridgeport table. Never heard of 123 blocks??? Geez.

 

[tym]

Ouch. I have had metal in my eye before. NOT FUN. Hope all is better with that. ANd that your lathe expedition works out. These things can get huge. I'm super impressed with the capabilities.

About as fun as a corneal abrasion. Ugh.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Ouch. I have had metal in my eye before. NOT FUN. Hope all is better with that. ANd that your lathe expedition works out. These things can get huge. I'm super impressed with the capabilities.

Yeah it's doing much better. Still a bit of haze and some minor light sensitivity. If I wasn't a doofus I would have probably removed it myself Friday with a neodymium magnet, but I never even thought of it.

Fiddled around with the 12" 3 jaw tonight and finally figured out what happened. Somebody milled the L1 threads off. What a waste. Probably wanted to sit it on a bridgeport table. Never heard of 123 blocks??? Geez.

What an idiot. Ah well, at least you've got a big lathe that can cut a new backplate pretty easily. These are mostly 4 jaw machines anyway for anything precision at least.

 

[jabberwoki]

Mm Monarch I love these . When I win the lotto I`m having a mid 40`s 14C.

 

[macgyver37]

If you don't have one, make a wooden block to set on the ways that is cut with a radius in it to support the chuck for taking it off and putting it on, it makes it much easier to start straight and keeps from banging things up.

I can take a pic of one I have if you need me to but it is pretty simple.

 

[86turbodsl]

If you don't have one, make a wooden block to set on the ways that is cut with a radius in it to support the chuck for taking it off and putting it on, it makes it much easier to start straight and keeps from banging things up.

I can take a pic of one I have if you need me to but it is pretty simple.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Couple of notches for the v ways and about the height it needs to be. Those chucks are heavy!

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[Jason280]

Great thread, I love the old WW2 lathes. I have a mid 40's South Bend 16" with a 6' bed that I picked up earlier this year, it was right around 2300lbs and was very interesting getting it moved.

[/QUOTE]

 

[86turbodsl]

Whoa, that's a long bed. Looks like in nice shape too! Have you got it running yet?

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Ouch. I have had metal in my eye before. NOT FUN. Hope all is better with that. ANd that your lathe expedition works out. These things can get huge. I'm super impressed with the capabilities.

Went too look at it today. It's a runner. Needs a little work, but not too bad. Sounds like we're gonna get it.

 

[86turbodsl]

You need to send pics when you can. I love these vintage tool restos.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Well, we couldn't let 86 have all the fun. We got her home tonight. I was coy with the details because I didn't want anybody knowing about it until it was on the trailer. It's a 1943 Sidney, 16x54(?). 18.5 actual swing just like 86's. Headstock is full of gorgeous herringbone gears. Came with the original steady too. I guess I ought to make my own thread on here.

 

[ez-duzit]

...It's a 1943 Sidney, 16x54...

I am green with envy. That is a helluva machine.

 

[jabberwoki]

Nice, very nice and yes please make you own thread so I can follow your progress.

 

[86turbodsl]

Wow! She's a beaut! Looking forward to your thread!

 

[DocsMachine]

Hey Turbo- you ever make a decision on the CXA/CA toolpost thing? I now have both sitting here side by side- I don't actually have a lathe to put them on, but I can still at least do a side-by-side.

I will say, though, that looking for used pieces on places like eBay? CXA is way more common, and often half the price. I've been able to buy (used) real Aloris basic blocks for $50-$60 each, and the cheapest (decent condition) real CA blocks are $80-$100+ each.

Doc.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Good question indeed. We need one for the Sidney as well and need to make the same decision. They say the range for CXA is 13-18", of which ours are all slightly out of range, but they are also a bit beffier than your average 18.5" lathe. We've got a dovetail cutter of the right geometry so I'd be tempted to make my own toolblocks.

 

[DocsMachine]

Good question indeed. We need one for the Sidney as well and need to make the same decision. They say the range for CXA is 13-18", of which ours are all slightly out of range, but they are also a bit beffier than your average 18.5" lathe.

-Thing is, the CXA is already a pretty massive toolpost. The size is less about strength and HP capacity, and more about even spacing.

When I got the Springfield, it had the wrong compound on it (it'd been scrapped and resurrected at some point) and a well-used BXA tool post.

With that compound, they had to have a thick block under the toolpost to get the tool up close to center height- even with the spacer you had to run the block to near the top of the post.

I replaced that with a much larger and beefier compound, and swapped the BXA for a CXA- which was a perfect combination- the point of the tool placed the block right about in the center of the dovetail way.

Unfortunately I can't check right now, as my machine is dismantled, but the CA is big enough I suspect I'll have to run the blocks to very close to the bottom of the dovetail to keep the tool heights right.

And that's with a 3/4" shank tool- going to a 1" shank will make that problem even worse.

That's why I mentioned it to Turbo- the Pacemaker actually has such a beefy saddle and compound, that a CA (I think) will start running out of adjustment room - I've actually seen guys have to mill 1" shank tools down to 3/4" thick just to get the tool back on center.

I picked up this CA simply because I had the chance to, but all the blocks I've found have been an easy 50-100% more expensive than a similar CXA. So I'm going to wait 'til I can get the machine back together and actually fit it in place- I know the CXA is nearly perfect, I think the CA will be too big.

Doc.

 

[86turbodsl]

Thanks for the info. I have not picked up anything yet, but have been leaning CXA and this pretty much confirms it. I'm waiting on tooling until i get more of the lathe done and checked out. I could do the lantern for a while if i had to just to get more things operational.

 

[Steve from Socal]

If you aren't sure or don't have the money for an Aloris tool post, get a 4 way turret on ebay. They generally sell cheap and are much more rigid than a lantern tool post.

The only issue with using them is you have to shim the tools depending on what they are.

Something like this,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-LS...=153549141740c8c9479a9fed40e2af494c713fe7342d

 

[DocsMachine]

Some hard data:

Here's a pic of my CXA, on the left, with a tool block approximately where it would be for a typical indexible carbide tool. The one on the right is the CA tool post, with the block adjusted to about where it'd have to be to set the same cuter height using the same 3/4" shank tool as in the CXA block.

Here's the same setup, but with the CA block adjusted to about where it'd be if you were using a 1" shank toolholder, rather than the 3/4".

You can see we're starting to quickly run out of room at the bottom- the block can only be lowered about another 1/4" before it would bottom out on the compound.

Now, again, I don't have my machine together yet in order to try these in a full, proper setup, so take it with a big grain of salt.

I think I could/can use the CA on my machine, but I suspect it'll be a tad TOO big at times- clearance to the tailstock or live center, for example, when turning between centers. And I suspect it would be nearly impossible to use small cutters, like chunks of 1/2" or 3/8" HSS- which means for small features (like thin grooves) having to do a BUNCH of grinding on a big chunk of 3/4" or 1" HSS.

(I'd been toying with the idea of making a small handful of "undersized" blocks for the CXA, back when I was finishing up the machine- with a 1/2" AXA-sized slot at the right height the blocks would 'land' about the normal height for a CXA, but the smaller tool would still be on center.)

And just for fun, here's the CA block compared to an AXA (a very popular size for people with Logans, Southbends, Sheldons, 10EEs and a host of others.)

Anyway, I'll hang on to both until I get the machine back together, and see of the considerably more expensive CA is worth using, or even keeping.

Doc.

 

[Steve from Socal]

I have an Aloris BX on my 10EE and, CA on both my 13EE and series 62 2013 Monarch lathes. I do use the BX on my 13EE for some work, the 13EE is actually a 15.5 swing lathe. Your 16 size lathe is most likely an 18 or 18 1/2 swing lathe a CA is the right size for that machine. I use 1" tools in my machines, the ones for the 10EE are milled on the bottom to 11/16. If I use 1/4 to 1/2 HSS or what not I just shim the tool bits. Blank 1/2 tool bits work well as shims or what ever small bits of steel are floating around.

The CXA size seems to be in high demand? I never considered it because I wanted the ability to use the same tooling on both the 13EE and series 62. The BX works as a small form factor for me, for a big powerful machine I would prefer the mass of the CA myself.

Steve

 

[ClappedOutBport]

I know a friend of dad's has some CXA(?) posts, maybe he'll let us borrow one for a few days to try it. He had one on his 16" South bend, and with a smallish tool in there the block was actually sitting too high in the post. He had at least a 1/4" riser block under the adjuster nut to get it on height. I'd like to use 1" tooling on the Sidney since retired industrial stuff often isn't too bad. The Chinese CAs aren't much more expensive than CXAs either.

BTW, thanks for the picture Doc.

 

[DocsMachine]

I have an Aloris BX on my 10EE[...]

-The AXA size (or a KDK, etc. ) is far more commonly used on a 10EE. While the EE has some HP to it, it's strong suit is far more about accuracy than sheer metal removal.

I do use the BX on my 13EE for some work, the 13EE is actually a 15.5 swing lathe. Your 16 size lathe is most likely an 18 or 18 1/2 swing lathe a CA is the right size for that machine.

-Yes and no. The lathe swing is only a guideline, and it's a pretty loose one. The important measurement is the top of the compound to the spindle centerline.

Ideally, the tool block should land more or less in the middle of the dovetail on the tool post. That gives you the widest range of adjustment, both up and down, for different sized tools, odd cutters or whatever special setup you may need to finish a particular job.

Not everyone wants to have to mill a toolholder down just to make it fit the machine.

The CXA size seems to be in high demand?

-All I can say is that it seems to me that from looking around, more people appear to be buying/selling/using CXA rather than CA.

But really, it doesn't matter what the other guy is using, what matters is what fits on your particular lathe.

I never considered it because I wanted the ability to use the same tooling on both the 13EE and series 62.

-I can understand the desire, it just strikes me as too big for the EE and too small for the 62.

Personally, if I were going to go that route, I'd want it to that a tool in a specific block could be used in either machine without having to adjust it. If nyou have to adjust the height each time, that kills a fair portion of the utility of sharing blocks.

(When I set up the new cross-slide, made from scratch, for my Logan lathe CNC conversion, I made a block to mount the AXA toolpost at the exact height so that I could share blocks- without any adjustments- between it and the manual Sheldon.)

Otherwise, I'd just get a toolpost set appropriate for either machine, and a set of blocks and tools set up specifically for that particular lathe.

[...]for a big powerful machine I would prefer the mass of the CA myself.

-The fact is, mass has nothing to do with it. That center tall setscrew with the height-adjusting collar takes the lion's share of the cutting forces. And that little rod is a small fraction the size of the body of the toolpost.

The dovetail does the locating, and through friction adds some resistance to the cutting forces, but really, the work is trying to push the tool downwards, and unless the block is resting on the compound, that means only the rod and collar are holding it up.

The CXA is more than stout enough for any work anyone here in this thread will be doing, and the CA is overkill.

Not saying you need to ditch it if you already have one, but for anyone looking to start a collection, not only is the CXA more than enough, it'll cost a fair percentage less to put together a collection. (For my Springer, I picked up a real Aloris toolpost, and something like 12 real tool blocks of various flavors, along with two imports made for 1" tools rather than 3/4", all for a little over $1,000. I got a pretty decent deal on this CA post, but all the blocks I can find that I'd want for it would cost 40-60% more per.)

Doc.

 

[Steve from Socal]

-The AXA size (or a KDK, etc. ) is far more commonly used on a 10EE. While the EE has some HP to it, it's strong suit is far more about accuracy than sheer metal removal.



-Yes and no. The lathe swing is only a guideline, and it's a pretty loose one. The important measurement is the top of the compound to the spindle centerline.

Ideally, the tool block should land more or less in the middle of the dovetail on the tool post. That gives you the widest range of adjustment, both up and down, for different sized tools, odd cutters or whatever special setup you may need to finish a particular job.

Not everyone wants to have to mill a toolholder down just to make it fit the machine.



-All I can say is that it seems to me that from looking around, more people appear to be buying/selling/using CXA rather than CA.

But really, it doesn't matter what the other guy is using, what matters is what fits on your particular lathe.



-I can understand the desire, it just strikes me as too big for the EE and too small for the 62.

Personally, if I were going to go that route, I'd want it to that a tool in a specific block could be used in either machine without having to adjust it. If nyou have to adjust the height each time, that kills a fair portion of the utility of sharing blocks.

(When I set up the new cross-slide, made from scratch, for my Logan lathe CNC conversion, I made a block to mount the AXA toolpost at the exact height so that I could share blocks- without any adjustments- between it and the manual Sheldon.)

Otherwise, I'd just get a toolpost set appropriate for either machine, and a set of blocks and tools set up specifically for that particular lathe.



-The fact is, mass has nothing to do with it. That center tall setscrew with the height-adjusting collar takes the lion's share of the cutting forces. And that little rod is a small fraction the size of the body of the toolpost.

The dovetail does the locating, and through friction adds some resistance to the cutting forces, but really, the work is trying to push the tool downwards, and unless the block is resting on the compound, that means only the rod and collar are holding it up.

The CXA is more than stout enough for any work anyone here in this thread will be doing, and the CA is overkill.

Not saying you need to ditch it if you already have one, but for anyone looking to start a collection, not only is the CXA more than enough, it'll cost a fair percentage less to put together a collection. (For my Springer, I picked up a real Aloris toolpost, and something like 12 real tool blocks of various flavors, along with two imports made for 1" tools rather than 3/4", all for a little over $1,000. I got a pretty decent deal on this CA post, but all the blocks I can find that I'd want for it would cost 40-60% more per.)

Doc.

Doc,

Thanks for not condemning my entire tooling arrangement, where to start.

I have owned and used KDK tooling on my old South Bend heavy 10 and my 10EE. I actually met Jack Khun? Bought stuff from his shop. KDK and Armstrong the original developer of Aloris were of different views on tool blocks, the later prevailed. There is merit to KDK tooling for some work, the form factor of Aloris tooling is more versatile.

Don't know if you realize that a 10EE is actually a 12.5 or 13" swing lathe, an A size holder is OK but, not the most common for this application.

The tool height for any machine is a function of the compound height to spindle centerline. The 13EE is a quarter inch lower than the 2013, a 1/4" riser normalizes the setting for my CA tooling. I rarely use the BX on the 13EE and have never used it on the 2013. DX tooling would be right on the edge for the 2013, it IS massive.

Your opinion is yours, the idea that price is a factor in choosing the correct tooling is something most have to wrestle with but, it alone is a poor reason to spec ANY critical parts. You live in remote Alaska, I get it, my shop is in remote Kansas. Nearly 100% of what I buy is shipped in not local.

I agree that for folks here a CXA size tool set would be fine, the notion that the height setting screw takes most of the force in these tools is a new one to me? The down force on the tool block is several inches from the center of the block with quite a bit of radial force on the dovetails. The surface area of the dovetails has a significant part in the holding force of the tool block.

There are a lot of folks here that got a machine because it was available not for a particular size or need. That is great, may they enjoy them. My big lathes were purchased to rebuild seed oil presses. You need a machine that is capable of holding the work you do. A 2500 pound screw is not something you throw on a 14" Causing lathe.

In the end, you have what works for your needs, my original post was what I use for my needs. Asking why someone uses X instead of Y is one thing, second guessing is quite another. My suggestions were based on use not price.

Steve

 

[86turbodsl]

I think the key takeaway here is you need to select the tooling that fits your application. There's enough overlap on CA/CXA that either could be pushed to service if needed, but maybe not be optimum for your application. Let your application guide your purchase. So business as usual.

Thanks for the comments guys, they are much appreciated.

 

[DocsMachine]

Doc, Thanks for not condemning my entire tooling arrangement[.]

-I'm just jealous of your 10EE.

Don't know if you realize that a 10EE is actually a 12.5 or 13" swing lathe[...]

-Yessir. And as you note below, the issue has nothing to do with the lathe swing, it's the compound-to-centerline height. My (unmodified) Logan vs. Sheldon was an example of that. The Sheldon is a 10", the Logan, an 11". Going by the swing, one would assume the tool height would be about 1/2" higher on the Logan.

But in actual practice, the difference was just under an eighth inch. I eventually made up a small shim block so I could use tools set for the Logan height in the Sheldon. (And then, as I said, later setting up the new Logan cross slide with a riser block to make them exactly the same.)

[..]an A size holder is OK but, not the most common for this application.

-From what I've seen, it is. Obviously I haven't seen every single EE or combination thereof, but I have done a little shopping, and drooling over others' machines, and I'm not sure I've ever seen anything but an AXA or KDK post on them.

I'll happily agree that many people have certainly used others, I'm just going by what I've seen.

The tool height for any machine is a function of the compound height to spindle centerline.

-Yessir. Quite so. As per my example above- the CXA post shown has a block approximately at the right height for my Springfield. The CA block on it's post, were I to use a 1" shank tool, would likely start running out of adjustment.

The BXA that came on it, with an undersized compound, almost couldn't adjust the block high enough for a standard tool- even with a 1" thick riser block.

Your opinion is yours, the idea that price is a factor in choosing the correct tooling is something most have to wrestle with but, it alone is a poor reason to spec ANY critical parts.

-Heh. Not all of us can afford a 13EE, m'kay?

Besides that, at least in the CXA/CA debate, the difference is not by any means critical. The CXA is more than big enough and rigid enough for Clap's Sibley, Turbo's Pacemaker, your 13EE or my Springer. Even at 10HP in low gear I suspect the strength of the toolholder or even the compound itself would come into play before the toolpost itself would yeild.

As such, considering the nontrivial price jump for the CA parts, saving forty percent or better on something that's still more than adequate for the task, is nothing to sneeze at.

I agree that for folks here a CXA size tool set would be fine, the notion that the height setting screw takes most of the force in these tools is a new one to me?

-The cutting forces try to push the tool more or less straight downward. Two things keep the block from sliding down- the friction on the locked dovetail, and the height setting adjuster. The friction is of course not trivial- the Aloris design locks nicely- but neither is the adjuster.

Asking why someone uses X instead of Y is one thing, second guessing is quite another.

-Er, Turbo was, in fact, wondering about the CXA vs. CA issue, and I had the chance to add both some hard data and a little educated speculation. The fact is, Turbo's Pacemaker is a beefy machine, but it's not a monster- in my opinion, he'd be better off, size and space and clearance wise, with a CXA. The machine can almost certainly accept a CA, but given the cost increase, it's my opinion, again, that it would be a waste of funds.

Doc.

 

[Provincial]

In my experience, which includes an Aloris block on a 20" Lodge and Shipley, I have never had an incident where a tool holder slipped while I was using it depending only on the friction of the tool post locking device (with the adjusting stop not in contact with the tool post). Admittedly, I was not taking really heavy cuts, since this was a temporary adjustment to clear a boring bar in too small a bore, do a quick chamfer in a bore, or other similar operation. I have done this with everything from a sub-AXA shop-made post up to a CA Aloris, including both wedge and piston designs. I regard the wedge design far more effective at locking, but the piston is quite capable, too.

In my experience, the stop screw/nut system merely sets the position of the tool block for consistent repeat height. The stop system is robust enough to add some resistance to movement, but I will place my bet on the block never moving with the stop not engaged.

 

[DocsMachine]

I've done the same thing myself, just sliding the block up without bothering to alter the actual adjustment, to tweak a cut a bit. Mine never slipped on me either, but it's always been more for a delicate finish cut than heavy hogging.

I'd be curious to know how much HP just the dovetail clamping force by itself could withstand. I wonder if Aloris has ever run tests like that.

Doc.

 

[ez-duzit]

...I'd be curious to know how much HP just the dovetail clamping force by itself could withstand...

The adjustment nut is for repeatable vertical positioning. It is doubtful that it was intended for carrying any significant loads as it is cantilevered off a fairly insignificant and loose thread.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

The adjustment nut is for repeatable vertical positioning. It is doubtful that it was intended for carrying any significant loads as it is cantilevered off a fairly insignificant and loose thread.

I have to agree. I don't think the adjustment nut is meant to carry much load. I've seen in guys videos running upside down tools that they can slip upwards, but it's usually after chatter has wiggled the toolpost a bit looser.

I also think it depends on if it's a wedge or a piston. Wedges have a lot more surface area since they have the dovetails and the rear flats. Also, since dovetails wedge downward, the more down pressure, the more they should self tighten.

 

[dr_clyde]

If your lathe has an actual swing of 18.5” then a CA size holder would work fine. I have a CA on my 19” LeBlond and can’t imagine going smaller. Plus the CA will hold 1” shank tools and bigger boring bars which is advantageous.

 

[matt_i]

I'm going to put up a different position here....

The only issue with a smaller toolpost is that it drives smaller square shank sizes and you can't hog material off at an alarming rate.

However big tooling gets in the way of doing detail work when you have big honking tooling in the way and big inserts to work around.

If there's an issue where the dovetail block can't be raised enough and the knurled wheel is bottoming out, then its easy to put a piece of ground flat stock under it with nothing more than a drilled hole.

Add in the factors that the bigger square shank tooling and bigger dovetail blocks cost more money as well to acquire. There's more carbide in the inserts and they cost more, it takes forrrrr-ever to hog a big square HSS toolbit into a new shape.

I'm no job shop, I don't need to make time on any job thus far and so I stick with the smaller posts, its worked out just fine, I've never been limited by the post size in what I needed to do within the work envelope and the tooling I have.

 

[86turbodsl]

It's been way too long since I made an update. I've been busy with other pursuits like heat.. lol. I've been man-shamed. Why I didn't do it earlier is beyond me.

This is for you Doc.

Behold the atw pacemaker.

As it sits now.

Pulled the top cover easily. Not too heavy.


Hard to see in there with camera, but I can report that everything is in perfect condition and shifts just fine. Everything has been officially checked out now. Only thing left to free up is a little bit of the taper attachment.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Uh huh. Looks like it uses the manifold style oiling system, where it just fills up the large CI manifold with oil and lets it drip. Neat.

And not to steal the limelight from the 16" because it's an awesome machine in it's own right, but did you see job_shopper_tn's 22.5" on instagram? Dang. I want.

 

[86turbodsl]

Wow. No I didn't. What's Instagram? I'm old lol...

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[ClappedOutBport]

Ask your son lol. A lot of garbage, but some really neat machining, welding, and fabricating content no where else on the web.