Another Porcelain Tile Project

[DEllis]

I'm back to finish the outfitting of my new garage. Thread link below.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=442443

The space is a 23 deep x 24 wide with an in ground lift. It will be climate controlled year round and used as a workshop. The slab was poured in August 2020, 4" thick over a 10mil vapor barrier. The foundation is insulated.

I have picked out the tile, a 24 x 12 LFT. I'd like to lay it in a running bond pattern with 1/3 tile overlaps. I'm starting to work on the prep. Some of the issues I'm trying to work through are listed below. Looking for thoughts and opinions on any of these.

1. The slab is not very flat. With a laser level I mapped out the topography of the floor in a three foot grid. The variation is close to 3/4 inches, with the floor following an inconsistent wave. There is a notable high spot right by the door that I can grind and that would reduce the wave variation to closer to 1/2 inch.

>> I'm considering leveling the entire floor with self leveling concrete. I understand this would be expense, but it seems a reasonable way to get a more consistent surface for the tile. I have prior experience as a flatwork finisher and access to many helpers so I'm confident I can mix and pour fast enough in 3 bag increments to maintain a wet edge with the SLC.

2. The contractor cut quite a few control joints in the tile. I've attached a few pictures below. Sorry I don't have a picture with an unobstructed view, but you can see there's 8 control joints in the slap all originating from a corner of the lift pits. I'm considering the following options.

>> Assume I should cut control joints in the SLC to honor the control joints in the concrete.

>> Option A. Coat floor with Red Guard or AcquDefense. Honor the control joints through the tile and caulk. Cheaper, but the most of the joints will go through the middle of the tile so it will disrupt the pattern.

>> Option B. Lay down NobleSeal CIS on the entire floor which the manufacturer says will allow me to bridge the control joint. I'd then use soft joints/caulk in the adjacent/bridged tiles as specified by their installation sheet.

Any thoughts on the above plan? Cost is not a primary consideration. I want to do this correctly and have the longest lasting floor possible.

thanks in advance,

Duncan


IMG_0805 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

IMG_0849 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

IMG_0853 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

 

[drmarkr]

following. I want to hear Dakota's thoughts on this.

My 12x24 1/3 overlap....

 

[DEllis]

I decided to go the self leveling route. To make it a bit easier I ground down the obnoxious hump right by the door. The concrete fell over 1/2" in four feet between the middle and edge of the door.

I mapped out the floor with a laser level and cut pegs to track the height. I had a crew of three people to help mix SLC which allowed me to focus just on the leveling. The floor is now within 1/8" inch over 10 feet everywhere. There's one slightly low hump in the back I may skim with thinset before rolling on the acqua defense.

Will be stripping forms this morning and cutting the control joints. Hopefully will be laying tile by the weekend.

Grinding down the high area.
IMG_1033 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

Leveling pins. This is one coat of primer. I put on an additional coat before the pour.

The lowest spot. Slightly over 3/4" down from the door edge.
IMG_1037 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

The high spot. The SLC is 1/8 thick at this point.
IMG_1036 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

After some drying.
IMG_1039 by duncanrellis, on Flickr
Duncan

 

[DEllis]

No comments yet, but I'm still looking for some help on how to best handle the layout with the control joints. Below is a layout drawing that shows the control joints in red.

Thoughts?

Screen Shot 2021-03-02 at 1.58.47 PM by duncanrellis, on Flickr

 

[ace10]

You've poured SLC over the joints. If there's movement in the slab, there's no possible way to predict where (or if) the SLC is going to crack.
Seems to me you're in no man's land now. Maybe should use a proper isolation membrane?

 

[DEllis]

You've poured SLC over the joints. If there's movement in the slab, there's no possible way to predict where (or if) the SLC is going to crack.
Seems to me you're in no man's land now. Maybe should use a proper isolation membrane?

I didn't. I caulked the joints with a flexible epoxy caulk and then recut them in the SLC.

 

[ace10]

Are you locked into the running bond pattern and rectable tiles? There's gonna be some really small pieces. A big square tile would seem to be an easier layout given those intersecting joints.

 

[DEllis]

Are you locked into the running bond pattern and rectable tiles? There's gonna be some really small pieces. A big square tile would seem to be an easier layout given those intersecting joints.

I'm not locked into the running bond, but I am locked into the 12x24 tiles since I already purchased them.

 

[Kobuck]

Have you looked into “protecowrap antifracture membrane?

 

[DEllis]

Have you looked into “protecowrap antifracture membrane?

Ive looked at Nobleseal CIS, but I'd basically have to cover the entire floor at about ~1200 dollars plus the thinset. I'd still have to use soft joints on all the adjacent grout lines. I've never installed a membrane so I'm also a bit worried as a first timer in getting it bonded properly. I don't want to add another failure point.

Also thought about using the diagonal lines as features, splitting a tile and running it along those lines.

 

[DEllis]

I just worked out the cost of NobleSeal CIS over Aqua Defense and it comes to an extra $700 dollars. Reading the tech sheet it seems to offer significantly more flexibility with regard to handling control joints.

 

[DEllis]

I had considered doing something like this.

Screen Shot 2021-03-03 at 11.17.51 AM by duncanrellis, on Flickr

 

[DEllis]

For completeness, here are a few additional patterns.

Screen Shot 2021-03-03 at 12.08.34 PM by duncanrellis, on Flickr

 

[Dakota00]

I just came across this thread... OP, prior to laying the SLC, did you happen to take a look in the control joints to see if cracking in the slab did actually occur?

At the very least I would recommend using a liquid crack-isolation membrane and a crack prevention thinset like FlexBond.

As for the control joints, I'm not too particularly worried about the joints spanning off the corners to the lift. I will say if possible, honor the 2 joints that run the length side to side. If you can, I would cut another control joint down the center of the garage.

 

[DEllis]

I just came across this thread... OP, prior to laying the SLC, did you happen to take a look in the control joints to see if cracking in the slab did actually occur?

At the very least I would recommend using a liquid crack-isolation membrane and a crack prevention thinset like FlexBond.

As for the control joints, I'm too particularly worried about the joints spanning off the corners to the lift. I will say if possible, honor the 2 joints that run the length side to side. If you can, I would cut another control joint down the middle of the

I looked at all the control joints, but didn't see any cracking in the slab. It was poured last August, but the space is conditioned year round so it's never been below 50 degrees.

Flexbond was going to be my thinset. I had purchased enough Aqua Defense to do the entire floor.

Don't quite follow you on which control joints you're talking about. There are 8 joints that span off the lift corners. Four run to the corners, and four run straight out to the wall. Are you saying the ones that run straight are of more concern to you than the ones that run diagonally?

 

[DEllis]

Dakota00,

Are you suggested the below (highlighted in green) as the joints to honor?

Screen Shot 2021-03-03 at 12.48.29 PM by duncanrellis, on Flickr

 

[drmarkr]

For completeness, here are a few additional patterns.

Screen Shot 2021-03-03 at 12.08.34 PM by duncanrellis, on Flickr

Man, I'd go with the bottom left. That will look fine, in my opinion.

 

[Dakota00]

Dakota00,

Are you suggested the below (highlighted in green) as the joints to honor?

Screen Shot 2021-03-03 at 12.48.29 PM by duncanrellis, on Flickr

It's close to what I'm suggesting. I would show you on an image, but I'm currently at work and do not have the ability to do so.

So basically the additional control joint that you've added in the image, move it more to the left so it's placed in the center of slab. This would place the control joint in line with the outer left edge of the lift's ramp.

 

[DEllis]

Screen Shot 2021-03-03 at 8.23.26 PM by duncanrellis, on Flickr

Like this.

 

[Dakota00]

^^^ Exactly like this.

 

[DEllis]

Some more progress today. Leveled three areas that were just a bit over 1/8" low with my 8 foot level. Also filled in the rounded area on the curb to prepare for the edge trim I'm using on the lift pits.

I used foam wedged in place to add as a straight edge for the pit patches.
IMG_1043 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

There was a slight dip here by the back door.
IMG_1044 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

Another slight dip here
IMG_1045 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

Filled in with patching compound
IMG_1046 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

After setting up a bit I stripped the forms and scraped any extra patch flush on both edges with a margin trowel.
IMG_1047 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

IMG_1048 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

Plan to cut the recommended control joint tomorrow and roll on the Aqua Defense.

 

[Dakota00]

In doing this extra bit of prep work now, will save you a lot of time and frustration when it comes to the tile installation.

Keep up the great work Duncan.

 

[DEllis]

I decided to lay down a crack isolation membrane in the big control joints. This is Nobleseal CIS, which will allow me to offset the soft joints to the nearest tile joint, making the floor look a bit cleaner.

IMG_1055 by duncanrellis, on Flickr


Still planning on using the AquaDefense in the other areas, and then finally on to the tile.
The Nobleseal people were super helpful on the phone as well.

Duncan

 

[shurkai]

Thanks for your updates, a lot of good information. I am also using a porcelain tile in my garage...following this closely.

 

[purediesel]

Looks like you know what you're doing but Ill tell you from experience that if you don't put that CIS under the rest of the floor you'll have to make your thinset thicker under your tile. I didn't think it would make a difference and it did. I also used the tile leveling kit and you can tell its a bit higher in the areas with the CIS. Maybe the aquadefense will build up the area a bit?

 

[TomcoPDR]

Looks like you know what you're doing but Ill tell you from experience that if you don't put that CIS under the rest of the floor you'll have to make your thinset thicker under your tile. I didn't think it would make a difference and it did. I also used the tile leveling kit and you can tell its a bit higher in the areas with the CIS. Maybe the aquadefense will build up the area a bit?

I was going to ask the same question as a concern, I used schluter Ditra as an underlay. Ditra is 2mm. (I used 10mm tiles), for me I definitely made sure any surface or transition edges merges are either built up or as leveled as much as possible to the 2mm Ditra.. then I googled CIS specs, says it’s 0.8mm...

Thanks for answering, I didn’t wanted to sound dumb asking. Haha

 

[duneslider]

So you are using noble cis and ditra? Noble is a great company to work with.

I probably would have just stuck with one membrane personally. I agree that all those transitions will be a pain.

 

[DEllis]

So you are using noble cis and ditra? Noble is a great company to work with.

I probably would have just stuck with one membrane personally. I agree that all those transitions will be a pain.

I'm only using CIS, but not on the entire floor. Understand the transitions will make things more difficult, even if they're very slight. Do you think it's worth feathering them out with thinset prior to laying tile?

 

[duneslider]

You may just need a slightly deeper trowel over the transitions and such. Or maybe comb thinset on the floor and back of the tile. The cis is .8mm but how much sticky stuff is under the cis? I suspect your total build up is more than .8mm.

Noble isn't really available locally to me so I don't use it much because I have to special order it, and I don't do a lot of installs over concrete so it doesn't come up all the time for me. I use their shower niches a lot though.

 

[DEllis]

Slow going as we've been busy with spring projects outside, but I've been steadily plugging away at this.

I'm at the point now where I need to start considering how I tile around the lift pits. I have a Schulter trim that I'm going to use on the edges but I'm looking for some advice on how best to tackle laying it down. The option I'm considering.

* Lay down the full tiles around the lift pit, and then once dry, come back and install the trim and all the cut tile pieces together so I have some play while the thinset is still wet.

Or, should I try and layout and secure the trim first?

Some progress pictures.

IMG_1083 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

IMG_1084 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

 

[rustyjames]

Schluter trim is typically installed while setting the tiles in the thinset. You could install after but you'd need to leave a margin on the tile edge to slip it in. That method could be a challenge.

 

[ace10]

I've done a few projects with Schluter trim profiles and I've watched some tile pros work their magic.

The answer seems to depend on the job. For flat or simple intersections, I'm using a hot glue gun to "secure" the profile in place. On complex intersections, like the raised platform step with an outside corner and a couple of different profiles and connector pieces, I used a combination of hot glue and freehand so I could really get everything just right.

Installing after the tile seems counterproductive. Especially if you're getting really good coverage with the thinset.

If you're working with stainless profiles, take your time cutting. And keep the material from getting overheated.

 

[DEllis]

I see above that my plan was not well articulated. I wasn't suggesting that I'd try and install the trim after the tile, but rather I'd lay out all the full tiles around the lift first. Essentially, I'd tile the rest of the floor but not attempt to trim around the pit.

Then, when those tiles are dry I'd come back and "trim" the pits, which will all be cut tiles. My thought was by doing it this way it would be easier to do all the cuts at one time and I'd be able to lay in the edge and all the adjacent tiles before the thinset set.

Duncan

 

[ace10]

You definitely want to sneak up on the trim install, when possible. One row would be ideal. Hot glue makes measuring the cuts much easier.

Are you using something like the ECK-E profile for the corner.

 

[warrens]

Nice progress. Looks like you're on the right track.

 

[9eight7]

It’s coming along very nicely, great work! Just curious, how much time do you think you’ve put into the flooring so far?

 

[DEllis]

It’s coming along very nicely, great work! Just curious, how much time do you think you’ve put into the flooring so far?

I probably have 25 hours in the tile alone. More when you account for the membrane installation and other floor prep.

I'm trying to move deliberately and not rush. I'm also limited in the amount of time I can work on it without having to switch to another task. That generally limits me to one bag of thinset per day.


Duncan

 

[shurkai]

I probably have 25 hours in the tile alone. More when you account for the membrane installation and other floor prep.

I'm trying to move deliberately and not rush. I'm also limited in the amount of time I can work on it without having to switch to another task. That generally limits me to one bag of thinset per day.


Duncan

Any updates?

I am beginning my tile install next week.



Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

 

[DEllis]

I'm almost done. I spent yesterday doing all the cuts around the lift pits. Hope to get them installed this Friday and grout over the weekend.

 

[DEllis]

All the floor tile is laid. Didn't get to grout yet, so it will have to be next weekend.

IMG_1133 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

IMG_1135 by duncanrellis, on Flickr

IMG_1134 by duncanrellis, on Flickr