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Antiseize on spark plugs?

czgunner

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This is mainly for the pro wrenches out there....
I am in school to be an auto tech, have been working at a shop for a few months, and in general have been doing my own auto repairs since I was 15.
Now this tech at work was putting some plugs in an aluminum head econo box. The other young guy I was chatting with spoke up and said "hey, are you going to put some copper (antiseize) on those?"
He replies, "no, it makes the plugs too hard to remove"
This guy has raised some red flags with me before from some of the stupid things he has said/done.
Is this true, or is he wrong?
 
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Ritter4.0

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I'm not a pro, but my dad taught me to use it on all bolts that see heat, or are exposed to the elements, also if they are rusty.. We use it for everything from breach plugs on muzzleloaders to spark plugs, to bolts on a backhoe and everything in between(within reason). We usually use marine grade anti-seize.
 

DrkMtnDew

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there is not a single person here or anywhere that will ever convince me that antiseize on plugs is a bad thing. on every single plug i've ever put in, i cover the bottom 3 threads with antiseize and have never had a minutes trouble.
 

pipsters

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The only issue is it alters the tension of the bolt and you might over torque it. Just use a little, personally in my experience (not a pro tech, just a home DIY guy) I love the stuff and use it wherever I believe it will help. They say not to use it on lug nuts, whatever, I've got 30k miles on my new rotors and they haven't warped so I really don't think that is an issue. One of my favorite places is actually on the hub where the rotor contacts it, so it won't rust to the hub and have to be hammered off. More a reason for a home guy to do it, otherwise it's just a professional courtesy for the pro because chances are you won't see that car again for brakes.
 
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czgunner

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The ONLY reason I am considering that I am wrong is that he has been in the industry for about 15 years. How long do people do the wrong thing?
 

AZ_Catskinner

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I was taught to ALWAYS use anti-seize on anything going into aluminum.

Reason being that galling can occur between dissimilar metals and you are liable to end up tearing up the threads on the next go round.
 

Red Green

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The ONLY reason I am considering that I am wrong is that he has been in the industry for about 15 years. How long do people do the wrong thing?

Some people will continue doing the wrong thing for their entire life. Even after it has been pointed out that they are doing it wrong.


I put a dab of Antiseize on any spark plugs. Just make sure not to get it on the tip.
 
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Stick

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We just went through this discussion last week. That said, when working on a modern engine and installing OE plugs, I don't use it. Most modern plugs are coated with a nickel plating, which should keep the plug from getting stuck in the head. Antiseize also works as an insulator, and can change the heat range of the plug as well as "baking" into place (what he may have been referring to).

There are reasons to use it, but I feel that the negatives greatly outweigh the positives in a modern engine.
 

MrMark

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I would never use it on new spark plugs. Many manf. recommend against it specifically and the new plugs have a special coating that requires no anti-seize. If the plugs are coming out and going back in and you live in the NE then maybe a tiny bit might be appropriate. Like everything else, it is necessary to read.

Edit: What stick said.
 

pipsters

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I would never use it on new spark plugs. Many manf. recommend against it specifically and the new plugs have a special coating that requires no anti-seize. If the plugs are coming out and going back in and you live in the NE then maybe a tiny bit might be appropriate. Like everything else, it is necessary to read.

Edit: What stick said.

Does this special coating consist of the same stuff lifetime coolant and 100k ATF has in it?
 
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czgunner

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We just went through this discussion last week. That said, when working on a modern engine and installing OE plugs, I don't use it. Most modern plugs are coated with a nickel plating, which should keep the plug from getting stuck in the head. Antiseize also works as an insulator, and can change the heat range of the plug as well as "baking" into place (what he may have been referring to).

There are reasons to use it, but I feel that the negatives greatly outweigh the positives in a modern engine.

I didn't see that thread.
Mind giving me a link to the nickle coating info? Thanks!
 

MrMark

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I doubt it but I just took the original plugs out of an alum head German car that had been in there since 98 without too much trouble. No anti-seize there. All I am saying is that you need to read. Some manf. specifically recommend against it. I know the Bosch plugs I put in my car specifically stated no anti-seize. Do what you want but I follow recommendations. I figure they know more than me.


I use a torque wrench too. Can't do that with anti-seize.
 
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stopdroplol

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He's probably wrong in the sense that it will make the plug harder to remove. Not sure what his logic for that is. But many people don't see a need for anti-seize on spark plugs (I'm one of them).

fyi, the cheap stuff uses copper in the compound. Quality stuff uses zinc, and it's very thick.

edit: Here's the link to the other thread http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9202
 
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MrMark

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That's not true. I have Wurth Copper anti-seize and it was very expensive. It is considered the cat's meow among German techs. I only use it for hubcentric wheel mounting surfaces so the wheel's don't get stuck. Not much need for the mess out here. It gets everywhere.
 

anythingfastxxx

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We just went through this discussion last week. That said, when working on a modern engine and installing OE plugs, I don't use it. Most modern plugs are coated with a nickel plating, which should keep the plug from getting stuck in the head. Antiseize also works as an insulator, and can change the heat range of the plug as well as "baking" into place (what he may have been referring to).

There are reasons to use it, but I feel that the negatives greatly outweigh the positives in a modern engine.


I am a young technician myself and we ALSO had a conversation on this topic atwork just a few weeks ago. I went to grab the anti seize and was told not to use it.(I just started at this new place about 7 weeks ago). I asked why and was informed that the anti seize can change the heat range just as stick said. It makes sense and being as the factory doesn't recommend it I'm pretty convinced that it isn't necessary.
 

bmxr4life87

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You can torque with antiseize I believe with copper you do 90% of original torque I will check with pocketref tmrw it has all sorts of thread lubricants and how to adjust your torque accordingly. I antiseize wheel studs, spark plugs, chassis/suspension bolts, new park brakes on 05+ E series vans on the guide pin and splined shaft, I use it anywhere I can really and have yet to regret it
 

stopdroplol

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That's not true. I have Wurth Copper anti-seize and it was very expensive. It is considered the cat's meow among German techs. I only use it for hubcentric wheel mounting surfaces so the wheel's don't get stuck. Not much need for the mess out here. It gets everywhere.

Maybe I misspoke.

What I meant to convey was that quality Anti-seize has lots of metal particles and little grease (relatively speaking). Cheap manufacturer's use lots of grease and add copper flakes to give a "quality" appearance. Once the grease evaporates all that's left is a small bit of copper anode that doesn't do much good.

The best anti-seize component would depend on the metals it's going to contact and the operating temperature. If you get something around 20-30% metal particles you should be good for most things.

Two products I have are SAF-T-EZE Zinc Anti-seize (43% zinc, can get at any marine shop) and N-7000 High Purity Anti-Seize (not sure what's in this, can't read label). Got the N-7000 as a gift from a guy who works at one of the Long Beach refineries, apparently it's what they use. I've never seen it anywhere else.
 
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MrMark

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I think I read the copper is really a no-no on plugs because of the heat transfer of the copper. I may have this wrong as I didn't pay too much attention as I rarely use the stuff.

I will say it works well on vises.
 

Damian

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I build modern muscle car engines (LS based engines, Hemi engines, 4.6L/5.4L, etc) and I use anti-seize on every plug that goes in them. Have yet to have a problem, and some of our race car stuff makes 1500hp.
 

Stick

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I build modern muscle car engines (LS based engines, Hemi engines, 4.6L/5.4L, etc) and I use anti-seize on every plug that goes in them. Have yet to have a problem, and some of our race car stuff makes 1500hp.

I would imagine that a race motor is a bit different than a daily driver, no? Likely you use modified ignition systems, as well as the plugs being in/out more often than a stock motor. You probably do more tweaks with regard to heat transfer of the plugs as well.
 

mikeceli

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Some people will continue doing the wrong thing for their entire life. Even after it has been pointed out that they are doing it wrong.



I saw a LOT of the above, in my 20 years in auto repair. Ego and ignorance, a poor combination.


I put a dab of Antiseize on any spark plugs. Just make sure not to get it on the tip.

I agree!
 

Techniker

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The ONLY reason I am considering that I am wrong is that he has been in the industry for about 15 years. How long do people do the wrong thing?

You're right, he's wrong. I'd be willing to bet that he also doesn't replace gaskets when he does any other job, say dropping the transmission pan for example. Unfortunately you will find that when you actually work in the real world, people who should know better, often still don't do the right thing either because it's extra work or simple ignorance. Shops usually don't encourage the spending of the extra money, in labor or in supplies, either. This isn't just unique to automotive technology but every field I can think of.

It doesn't help either when customers scoff at spending money on extra parts like transmission oil pan gaskets and act offended like you are trying to rip them off. Enjoy your transmission leak sir.

Keep up the good work and when you know you are doing the right thing by the customer, don't let people tell you otherwise. It's the professional thing to do and in doing so, you can improve the public's perception of the profession.

-Techniker
 

mrholeshot

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I don't give a flying **** what the plug builder say I put anti-seize on every plug I install. Ive pulled more plugs tahn you could count on a 80's caculator and I've witnessed what happens on many of them every major plug maker. I've had to heli-coil countless heads because the plugs were put in dry. When I pull a plug and it has anti-seize I thank the guy who put it on before me. I also build Hi-Po street and race engines and everyone gets antiseize on the plugs. I've never had to heli-coil a head where the plugs had anti-seize. I can't count the nunber of aluminum heads I've had to do that brought the threads out with the plug. The plug maker doesnt give a **** if the plugs ruin the threads. Then try to explain to a customer that the car they drove in for a tune up needs more work because of a stripped plug, They automaticly think you did it or are trying to upsell the work. Sorry the people that build the plugs dont have to deal with yanking them out and dealing with customers. While some may think it helps nothing but I can tell you it's good insurance.
No spark plug in my shop in the last 20 years went in without it. No race engine went without either.
 

WHT

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there is not a single person here or anywhere that will ever convince me that antiseize on plugs is a bad thing. on every single plug i've ever put in, i cover the bottom 3 threads with antiseize and have never had a minutes trouble.

OK, how about the spark plug manufacturers themselves? They all agree:


First, most head damage is caused by a ham handed mechanic who doesn't know what he is doing. Many plugs extend a thread or two into the combustion chamber and can have a buildup of carbon that will destroy aluminum threads if you try to force the plug out. Anti-seize WILL NOT prevent this and a reasonable person will stop at the first indication of tightness rather than jump up and down on the ratchet (or use a hammer) and destroy the threads.

So, the plug will appear to be seized by corrosion when actually the lower threads have carbon deposits. The plug can usually be removed easily without damage if you un-tighten it 1/8 to 1/4 turn and treat the threads with a mixture of 1/2 acetone and 1/2 power steering fluid (or other penetrating oil/fluid and/or carburetor cleaner). With luck, the mixture will be wicked into the threads and help soften the carbon. Let the plug sit over night and try again (working it back and forth, and if needed treat it again).

Install a plug by seating it finger tight and turning as specified by the manufacturer. This will provide the correct torque whether the spark plug threads are dry or treated with anti-seize. Engine oil or grease used to lubricate a spark plug thread (and in many anti-seize compounds) can carbonize and stick a plug. BTW, the fact that someone pulled more plugs than Charlie's dated **** stars doesn't mean he is doing it correctly.



NGK recommends:
"Do not use anti-seize. Anti-seize reduces electrical and thermal conductivity between the spark plug and head; and increases the installed torque, which can damage head threads. The spark plug holes must always be cleaned prior to installation, or you may be torquing against dirt or debris and the spark plug may actually end up under-torqued (dry threads), even though your torque wrench says otherwise.

All NGK Spark Plugs are manufactured with special shell plating on the metal body. The use of anti-seize on spark plugs is only recommended on those brands that do not offer a special metal shell plating. Install spark plugs with a compression gasket finger tight until seated and then turn approximately 1/2 to 2/3 turns. Spark plugs without a compression gasket (taper) should be installed finger tight until seated and then turn 1/16 turns.

Racing Spark Plug Installation:
Do not use anti-seize. To install spark plugs in the engine, first tighten them by fingers, then retighten with the right tightening torques as shown below, using a plug wrench. Either excessive tightness or looseness will cause troubles. Looseness sometimes causes pre-ignition because heat cannot disperse. On the other hand, excessive tightness can damage the threads of both the cylinder head and the spark plug."



Champion recommends:
"Champion recommends that you do not use an anti-seize compound, since one has already been applied to the plugs at the factory. Next, install the spark plugs finger tight and, if using a taper seat spark plug, use a ratchet to rotate 1/16 of a turn. If using a gasket seat type spark plug, after installing finger tight, turn 1/4 to 5/8 of a turn. If this procedure is followed, spark plugs will not back out nor will they seize in the cylinder head."


Autolite recommends:
"We do not recommend anti-seize. Install 14mm plugs in aluminum cylinder head at 20-30 Nm (15 - 22 foot pounds) with CLEAN and DRY threads. We do not recommend the use of any anti-seize products for installing spark plugs. Anti-seize compounds are typically composed of metallic, electrically conductive ingredients. If anti-seize compounds come in contact with the core nose of the plugs, it can lead to a misfire condition.

Anti-seize on the threads of your spark plugs will slow down the rate of heat transfer from the plug to the head. The worst place to use it is on the tapered seat, which is where the most heat transfer occurs between the spark plug and the cylinder head. Even just a small amount of anti-seize is the equivalent of using a hotter heat range spark plug.

Anti seize compounds can also have a torque multiplying effect when installing plugs. This can lead to thread distortion and thread galling resulting in cylinder head damage. Autolite spark plugs are nickel plated to resist the effects of corrosion and seizing.

NOTE: Spark plugs should be installed with clean and dry threads to avoid over-torquing or stretching the spark plug, which can, and often does, result in engine damage."


Denso recommends:
"Do not use anti-seize. Installation Key Points: (1) The threaded area of the cylinder head must be clean. (2) Using your fingers, screw the spark plug into the cylinder head, and tighten about 1/4-1/2 turn with a plug wrench. (Taper seat plug: about 1/16 turn). (3) Tightening too much may cause distortion of the plug housing, and in extreme cases could cause engine damage. Proper installation of the spark plug is important for life and performance of the spark plug. (4) Installation procedures shown above apply to new spark plugs without lubricating the threads.

Torque Recommendations (dry threads). Whenever possible it is recommended that the spark plug should be installed by using a torque wrench. "

Bosch recommends:
"Do not use anti-seize. Bosch small engine spark plugs are constructed with a nickel chromium ground electrode for consistent performance and prolonged service life; Nickel-plated rolled threads offer complete anti-seize and corrosion protection. Built to withstand extreme operating temperatures and give more power, Bosch Super Start is ideal for all small engine applications."
 
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mrholeshot

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Sometimes a plug will appear to be seized by corrosion when the lower threads have carbon deposits (especially if a thread protrudes into the combustion chamber). The plug can usually be removed without damage if you un-tighten it 1/8 to 1/4 turn and treat the threads with a mixture of 1/2 acetone and 1/2 power steering fluid (or other penetrating oil/fluid and/or carburetor cleaner). With luck, the mixture will be wicked into the threads and help soften the carbon. Let the plug sit over night and try again (working it back and forth, and if needed treat it again).

I've had plugs break off in heads without ever moving at all. Plug makers make plugs they don't deal with high corrosion areas. Anti-seize prevents this. Do it long enough and you learn what really works and what doesn't
 

bsaint

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NGK says - "Anti-seize reduces electrical and thermal conductivity between the spark plug and head"

But Autolite says - "Anti-seize compounds are typically composed of metallic, electrically conductive ingredients."

Wtf I use anti seize on everything from lug nuts to seat bolts.
 

Blk63Vette

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I was taught to ALWAYS use anti-seize on anything going into aluminum.

Reason being that galling can occur between dissimilar metals and you are liable to end up tearing up the threads on the next go round.

:thumbup:

I Agree always on Aluminum heads..Always put anti-seize in..I also put it on wheel studs never broke on yet because of rust...
:beer:
 

richfinn

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The only ones we still have problems with corrosion are in cast Iron heads (Ford Kent).

Alloy heads I just install them dry/clean and use a torque wrench.

Merc-Benz service specifically advises not to use anti-seize on wheel bolts.

personally I use it where I think a plug or bolt is a known problem, I think a lot comes down to how roads are treated during the winter and how wet your area gets.

We see a lot of broken coil springs and rotten brake lines in the UK but I suppose in a better climate you might not see it so often. Lancia underestimated how much protection their cars would need over here (compared to Italy I suppose) and it finished them in britain.
 

strnjss

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He is COMPLETELY wrong. I'm not a pro, but I know for a fact that anti-seize is good, and necessary to use.

It is even recommended by (auto) manufacturers (I know the plugs guys say not to use it, but that's a whole different story).

My own ASE certified mechanic always goes over to his bench and brushes on anti-seize on spark plug threads.

Ask any good mechanic, and they will tell you the same thing.

I have always used anti-seize and have never had any issues because of it. It just makes for smooth changing in the future. You obviously don't want to cake it on to the point it causes the problems the spark plug makers are worried about. Just a small dab per plug , screwing it in spreads it out nice and thin.

Also, the nit-picking about torque amount when it comes to spark plugs really isn't that big a deal. The torque rating in the case of plugs is mainly to ensure that the plugs are not too tight that it will strip the soft aluminum, but being tight enough to stay in.

While I do use a torque wrench when I change my plugs, I have never seen an experienced pro mechanic actually torque plugs to spec. They're experienced enough to do it by feel.

Even these guys use anti-seize though!

Whoever told you this needs to be reported or something, because they're making some big problems for whoever has to change those plugs in the future.

If this guy isn't just a ***** who doesn't know, then he's doing it intentionally to try and make more money in the future when the next time the guy comes in for his plugs to be changed, they're seized in the engine and he can charge all kinds of labor to get them out.

Always use Anti-Seize!
 
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Fedwrench

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This may be a novel concept but, I refer to the service information for the vehicle I'm working on for guidance. If the service information says to use it, a little dab of nickel based antiseize goes on. If not, it goes in dry. Spark plugs aren't the no brainer they once were. Just look at the extended plugs found on Ford Triton series engines or those on some 4.6L engines that are held in by two threads for example. Perhaps there are less problems with Asian engines but, I work on very few Asian engines.:beer:
 

mrholeshot

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Sorry, but you should have stopped adding force long before you snapped the plug and tried to deal with the corrosion first. And, do you really think plug manufacturers want to gain a reputation for sticking threads by giving out poor installation information? Not too good for business.

And just how would you suggest getiing the plug out? If you could keep a customers car for 4-5 days to allow penatrant to seep down the threads. Some the angle wont allow it.

As far as the Manufactuers go they really don't give a ****. I never blamed the plug for breaking or destroying the threads. I blamed the ******* that put them in without antiseize. Don't beleive every claim auto parts manufactures make. If you do you are in for a rough life as an auto technician
 

Damian

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Well the plug manufacturers can kiss my rosey red *** cheeks. As Mrholeshot said, I've heli-coiled enough heads in my lifetime to give me nightmares. No thanks, anti-seized is used or it doesn't get done. Period.
 

mrholeshot

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Another plus to using anti-seize is on alloy heads it acts as a lubricant on the threads. If you have a Hipo ally head where plugs come out often you have to remember that each time that dry plug goes in and out it wears on the threads. A good copper based anti-seize will have 0 effects on performance and add long term durability. They way we used anti-seize in my shop it didn't come cheap (lug studs, caliper bolts,plugs, etc) but in the long run when you have the repeat business my shop did if a plug broke off or stripped there was a good chance we were the last ones who did the work.
 

mrholeshot

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I think I read the copper is really a no-no on plugs because of the heat transfer of the copper. I may have this wrong as I didn't pay too much attention as I rarely use the stuff.

I will say it works well on vises.

Ive used Anti-seize on cars with 3 stages of Nitrous to where it either burned a hole in the top of the piston, burned a groove out of the combustion chamber all the way to the outside of the head and the electrode completly gone and the plug would still be in the head and able to be remove it. I wouldn't worry to much about the heat transfer of copper laden antiseize.
 

AZ_Catskinner

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Another reason to use anti-seize I've learned is that maintenance intervals have changed - the guy who brought the family car in for servicing every few months is pretty much a thing of the past. It might be 50K miles or more before someone pulls the plugs again.
 

mp23

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Well the plug manufacturers can kiss my rosey red *** cheeks. As Mrholeshot said, I've heli-coiled enough heads in my lifetime to give me nightmares. No thanks, anti-seized is used or it doesn't get done. Period.

even for a car that gets changed a lot? Like every month or so? I use it on my hot rod engine but was wondering if it's necessary if I change them that much?
 

AZ_Catskinner

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even for a car that gets changed a lot? Like every month or so? I use it on my hot rod engine but was wondering if it's necessary if I change them that much?

That makes it even more important - every time that a plug goes in and out, there's a tiny bit more wear on the threads. Even with cast iron heads, the plug is going to be a little bit harder than the head.
 
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