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Antiseize on spark plugs?

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mrholeshot

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What am I, chopped liver? (JK):lol_hitti:lol_hitti



There you go with your damn facts and evidence again.:mad: Give us some hearsay and "common knowledge", it seems to be much preferred around here...:)

Facts and evidence can vary from car to car location to location. Each area can present it's own set of challanges, problems and solutions. What I present is facts for my area. I don't claim whats best in the desert but I know what works on the ocean front.
 

X1 Mike

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If that Harley engineer really told you what you posted I have to wonder.

Silver has a lower coefficient of resistivity than copper. In other words, it is a better conductor than copper. It has a lower resistance. So why would it be OK to lower the resistance if resistance is critical for ION sensing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity

The intention isn't to lower or raise the resistance, they are measuring the previous burn. Lowering or raising resistance is changing what they want to be a given set value.
 

MrMark

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The intention isn't to lower or raise the resistance, they are measuring the previous burn. Lowering or raising resistance is changing what they want to be a given set value.

Exactly. Then why if you don't use copper based anti-seize on these ION sense motors because as you say, "it [the copper] conducts too well", why is it OK to use silver, which is even a better conductor?? The post you made previously makes no sense to me. It sounds like you didn't understand that silver is a better conductor.


Your quote:

In most cases vehicles no longer use cam position sensors to deterime what phase the engine is on. They use what is known as Ion-sensing, which means they send a small amount of voltage down the plug to determine the ions left in the combustion chamber. The resistance to this voltage will tell you if a combustion event should happen or has just happened. Logically the resistance of the plugs has to be a constant and known value. Applying anti-sieze will actually change the resistance of the plugs. I was told if I used anything I should use a tiny dab of silver because the copper conducts too well. On the other hand if your engine doesn't have ion-sensing technology I would use copper everytime.
 
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AZ_Catskinner

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Just because this thread is interesting, and I'm learning things that I didn't know, I'll keep it going:

The typical "silver" anti-seize isn't really silver, it's a blend of aluminum, copper and graphite.

As far as Permatex goes anyway, copper is recommended for sparkplugs and conductive applications like battery bolts, where the silver is not.
 

MrMark

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aluminum and graphite are both good conductors. Aluminum is an excellent conductor, just below copper.

Silver colored anti-seize may be nickel based, and nickel is also a good conductor.
 
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mrholeshot

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Still no matter how you do the plugs you are still at the mercy of the conductivity of the heads, engine grounds, block,etc. Despite arguement on the subject it's best to do it the way you feel best about it.
 

t100

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I asked the director of GM ASEP program at our school about anti-seize on spark plugs. his answer is No and Yes.

Officially, GM instructs technicians DO NOT use anti-seize compound on spark plugs.

personally, he puts it on every one of his own vehicles.

so, if you are a tech, and some work comes back to you and they can find a way to blame you used anti-seize, there would be a problem.
 

mrholeshot

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Officially, GM instructs technicians DO NOT use anti-seize compound on spark plugs.

.

These are the same people who told you to use Dex-cool. Dex-cool makes for some really nice customer pay work as the warranty runs out (many times before)
 

MrMark

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I think that what has been lost in this whole thread is that THE NEW COATED PLUGS ALREADY HAVE AN ANTI-SEIZE COATING ON THEM! It is either trivalent metal or nickel based, probably the same metal in the anti-seize, but it is controlled and accounted for. Why is this not good enough??????????????????????????????

I have seen what goes on back east with anti-seize. People get hooked on it. They put it on everything, lug nuts, brake bolts, caliper slide pins, their c#5K, they even brush their teeth with it. I don't get it. Exhaust manifold, OK, yeah that makes sense. Wheel lugs? Not so much.
 
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toolmaker1

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I think that what has been lost in this whole thread is that THE NEW COATED PLUGS ALREADY HAVE AN ANTI-SEIZE COATING ON THEM! It is either trivalent metal or nickel based, probably the same metal in the anti-seize, but it is controlled and accounted for. Why is this not good enough??????????????????????????????

I have seen what goes on back east with anti-seize. People get hooked on it. They put it on everything, lug nuts, brake bolts, caliper slide pins, their c#5K, they even brush their teeth with it. I don't get it. Exhaust manifold, OK, yeah that makes sense. Wheel lugs? Not so much.
"quote" from mr mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You live in so cal how can you possibly ***** about us back east using antiseize? Go on out to your vehicles and dump a pound of wet salt on your lugs and let them sit for a few months and then go snap them off so I can laugh my @ss off at you. How about you go out and smoke another joint and go surfing like you so cal people do. (another unfair generalization just like your "back east" comment
 

jay50

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I think some of you anti-anti-sieze guys must picture us dipping the sparkplug end in a big ole pot of anti-sieze, much like a fondo pot of cheese....:lol_hitti

Just a light smear on a few threads is all I do...no dipping in a vat of anti-sieze....:lol_hitti:thumbup:
 

MrMark

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I used to live back east until I was old enough to get out and that is BS about the lugs. Charlie don't surf or smoke pot either.

I have yet to hear an answer as to why the anti-corrosion coating on the coated plugs is not good enough. I'm all ears.
 
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abstamaria

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OK, how about the spark plug manufacturers themselves? They all agree:


First, most head damage is caused by a ham handed mechanic who doesn't know what he is doing. Many plugs extend a thread or two into the combustion chamber and can have a buildup of carbon that will destroy aluminum threads if you try to force the plug out. Anti-seize WILL NOT prevent this and a reasonable person will stop at the first indication of tightness rather than jump up and down on the ratchet (or use a hammer) and destroy the threads.

So, the plug will appear to be seized by corrosion when actually the lower threads have carbon deposits. The plug can usually be removed easily without damage if you un-tighten it 1/8 to 1/4 turn and treat the threads with a mixture of 1/2 acetone and 1/2 power steering fluid (or other penetrating oil/fluid and/or carburetor cleaner). With luck, the mixture will be wicked into the threads and help soften the carbon. Let the plug sit over night and try again (working it back and forth, and if needed treat it again).

Install a plug by seating it finger tight and turning as specified by the manufacturer. This will provide the correct torque whether the spark plug threads are dry or treated with anti-seize. Engine oil or grease used to lubricate a spark plug thread (and in many anti-seize compounds) can carbonize and stick a plug. BTW, the fact that someone pulled more plugs than Charlie's dated **** stars doesn't mean he is doing it correctly.



NGK recommends:
"Do not use anti-seize. Anti-seize reduces electrical and thermal conductivity between the spark plug and head; and increases the installed torque, which can damage head threads. The spark plug holes must always be cleaned prior to installation, or you may be torquing against dirt or debris and the spark plug may actually end up under-torqued (dry threads), even though your torque wrench says otherwise.

All NGK Spark Plugs are manufactured with special shell plating on the metal body. The use of anti-seize on spark plugs is only recommended on those brands that do not offer a special metal shell plating. Install spark plugs with a compression gasket finger tight until seated and then turn approximately 1/2 to 2/3 turns. Spark plugs without a compression gasket (taper) should be installed finger tight until seated and then turn 1/16 turns.

Racing Spark Plug Installation:
Do not use anti-seize. To install spark plugs in the engine, first tighten them by fingers, then retighten with the right tightening torques as shown below, using a plug wrench. Either excessive tightness or looseness will cause troubles. Looseness sometimes causes pre-ignition because heat cannot disperse. On the other hand, excessive tightness can damage the threads of both the cylinder head and the spark plug."



Champion recommends:
"Champion recommends that you do not use an anti-seize compound, since one has already been applied to the plugs at the factory. Next, install the spark plugs finger tight and, if using a taper seat spark plug, use a ratchet to rotate 1/16 of a turn. If using a gasket seat type spark plug, after installing finger tight, turn 1/4 to 5/8 of a turn. If this procedure is followed, spark plugs will not back out nor will they seize in the cylinder head."


Autolite recommends:
"We do not recommend anti-seize. Install 14mm plugs in aluminum cylinder head at 20-30 Nm (15 - 22 foot pounds) with CLEAN and DRY threads. We do not recommend the use of any anti-seize products for installing spark plugs. Anti-seize compounds are typically composed of metallic, electrically conductive ingredients. If anti-seize compounds come in contact with the core nose of the plugs, it can lead to a misfire condition.

Anti-seize on the threads of your spark plugs will slow down the rate of heat transfer from the plug to the head. The worst place to use it is on the tapered seat, which is where the most heat transfer occurs between the spark plug and the cylinder head. Even just a small amount of anti-seize is the equivalent of using a hotter heat range spark plug.

Anti seize compounds can also have a torque multiplying effect when installing plugs. This can lead to thread distortion and thread galling resulting in cylinder head damage. Autolite spark plugs are nickel plated to resist the effects of corrosion and seizing.

NOTE: Spark plugs should be installed with clean and dry threads to avoid over-torquing or stretching the spark plug, which can, and often does, result in engine damage."


Denso recommends:
"Do not use anti-seize. Installation Key Points: (1) The threaded area of the cylinder head must be clean. (2) Using your fingers, screw the spark plug into the cylinder head, and tighten about 1/4-1/2 turn with a plug wrench. (Taper seat plug: about 1/16 turn). (3) Tightening too much may cause distortion of the plug housing, and in extreme cases could cause engine damage. Proper installation of the spark plug is important for life and performance of the spark plug. (4) Installation procedures shown above apply to new spark plugs without lubricating the threads.

Torque Recommendations (dry threads). Whenever possible it is recommended that the spark plug should be installed by using a torque wrench. "

Bosch recommends:
"Do not use anti-seize. Bosch small engine spark plugs are constructed with a nickel chromium ground electrode for consistent performance and prolonged service life; Nickel-plated rolled threads offer complete anti-seize and corrosion protection. Built to withstand extreme operating temperatures and give more power, Bosch Super Start is ideal for all small engine applications."

Thanks for taking the trouble to put this information together, WHT.

Andres
 

garfunkle24

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If you lived in the rust belt, it would start to make a lot more sense. :)

I was born and raised in England so rust is not unfamiliar to me. I still think it's moronic to put anti-seize on lugs.

thank you WHT...now can we end this ******* match?

We could if people here believed facts and evidence more than what their mechanic buddy told them.

It's not like the guy only just posted that info......
 
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yhprum

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well, weve heard about the problems we have experienced with no anti sieze. Lets hear some real life evidence to support that anti sieze is bad? The only problem I can see is getting it on the electrode area shorting out the plug.
 

Elroy

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Thanks for taking the trouble to put this information together, WHT.

Andres

Surely you're not going to believe all that dribble

You know, for once you could actually post meaningful information if you have it to share instead of making people pry it out of you like you are some sort of all knowing oracle of automotive knowledge.

If you have info that shows that raising the heat range is BS, I'd love to see it, because everything seen from the manufacturers has stated that it can happen.

The key words are "can happen". Elroy's point is: that to make the general blanket statement that antiseize raises plug temperatures and have the balls to claim it's a proven fact is just plain BULL **** in Elroy's eyes

For those who claim Never-Seize elevates the the heat range of the plug. Now to fully fair it can happen but in very limited conditions only. This over heating condition is primarily associated with using copper based materials in aluminum cylinder heads. In these conditions, the copper has the potential to set up galvanic corrosion with the aluminum that generates an oxide over time that "could" act as an thermal insulator.

It's not a given, conditions have to be just right.

This potential problem can easily be eliminated by selecting a lubricant free of copper. In the far far majority of cases the never-seize will actually help the plug draw heat off the tip.

As far as plug tip temperature are concerned, there are other more important parameters that enter into the picture beside the fact that one chooses to use anti-seize or not. The main factors being the design of the plug itself and particularly the heat transfer coefficient of the ceramic and length of the heat path. Also note that the majority of the heat transfer occur through the seat of the plug, NOT the threads !!!

In addition to these basic observations you also need to look at this issue from the manufactures point of view. The first thing to consider is the fact they are screwing together new parts and could give an "Elroy's ***" about the service aspects. Their goal is to assemble the machine as quickly as possible

The benefits of lubricant that can withstand elevated temperatures is also well known. The additional expense, labor and potential liability associated with a proud and skilled UAW member manually applying never-seize to a million spark plugs just won't cut it. As a result the plug manufactures have developed their own "solid film" coatings that perform the same thing as the paste with out the hazards of that dumb *** Elroy getting involved.

Have no mistake, the benefits of a "wetted" heat transfer surface is proven. Be that wetted with a liquid or as a metallic coating that applied to the plugs threads at the point of manufacturer that cold flows. The problem is that used components (cylinder head threads) are worn and will not perform as well as new. Thus the need to apply the correct formulation never-seize when in a service environment.

But there are reasons the manufactures recommend not using never-seize compounds. First off is the potential corrosion issues. The second issue concerns the torque. Never-seize is going to reduce friction and depending if the lubricant is applied to the threads only or all over makes for problems of recommending a torque difficult.Then there is the problem of ******* Elroy slopping it all over the insulator. That's a no-no for obvious reasons.

So as a result the manufactures take the safe way out and simply say don't use it.

Is the use of never-seize out dated ? Not even close.

WHT and some others here need to open their minds and see the big picture

The issue of the ion sensing is also mute but Elroy doesn't intend to get into that issue at this time. He tires of the dribble.
 
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garfunkle24

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I have yet to hear an answer as to why the anti-corrosion coating on the coated plugs is not good enough. I'm all ears.

Because an unmeasured blob or smear of gloopy anti-sieze is much better than a factory applied, mass produced, evenly coated, tested and qualified, non-thread-distorting, manufacturer-chosen coating.

Of course.
 

MrMark

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Lots of problems with mid 00's Ford's concerning stuck plugs. See this TSB page 2 note. Depends on the application... This tsb doesn't show the anti-sieze going on the threads but lower on the plug.

http://www.phila.gov/fleet/Warranty Recalls/tsb08-07-06 FORD.pdf

Yeah, what about that anti-seizers? Ford, if any manf., knows about problems with stuck spark plugs. Yet, they don't recommend it on the threads. How is that explained? There are some close-minded old gizzards on this thread.
 
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MrMark

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Because an unmeasured blob or smear of gloopy anti-sieze is much better than a factory applied, mass produced, evenly coated, tested and qualified, non-thread-distorting, manufacturer-chosen coating.

Of course.

LOL, you are now included on my list. Sorry about your earlier ommission.
 

Stick

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The key words are "can happen". Elroy's point is: that to make the general blanket statement that antiseize raises plug temperatures and have the balls to claim it's a proven fact is just plain BULL **** in Elroy's eyes

For those who claim Never-Seize elevates the the heat range of the plug. Now to fully fair it can happen but in very limited conditions only. This over heating condition is primarily associated with using copper based materials in aluminum cylinder heads. In these conditions, the copper has the potential to set up galvanic corrosion with the aluminum that generates an oxide over time that "could" act as an thermal insulator.

It's not a given, conditions have to be just right.

I just went back and re-read the whole thread, and I don't see anywhere that a "general blanket statement that antiseize raises plug temperatures" is made. I've stated a few times that it's possible, but nowhere did I say that it always happens. You also talk about copper based materials, and it seems that most people regard copper based antiseize as "the good stuff". Witness the: "are you going to put some copper (antiseize) on those?" in the OP.

Seems that the "very limited conditions only" are more common than you may let on, even if it is just because of the mechanic that puts the antiseize on...


The benefits of lubricant that can withstand elevated temperatures is also well known. The additional expense, labor and potential liability associated with a proud and skilled UAW member manually applying never-seize to a million spark plugs just won't cut it. As a result the plug manufactures have developed their own "solid film" coatings that perform the same thing as the paste with out the hazards of that dumb *** Elroy getting involved.

Have no mistake, the benefits of a "wetted" heat transfer surface is proven. Be that wetted with a liquid or as a metallic coating that applied to the plugs threads at the point of manufacturer that cold flows. The problem is that used components (cylinder head threads) are worn and will not perform as well as new. Thus the need to apply the correct formulation never-seize when in a service environment.

Or, just stick with the solid film coating or similar coatings such as the Chromate coated plugs that are common on domestic applications, and you won't have to worry about having to "apply the correct formulation never-seize when in a service environment" because it's already selected for you by a manufacturer with significantly more R&D invested in proper use of their product than you do.

But there are reasons the manufactures recommend not using never-seize compounds. First off is the potential corrosion issues. The second issue concerns the torque. Never-seize is going to reduce friction and depending if the lubricant is applied to the threads only or all over makes for problems of recommending a torque difficult.Then there is the problem of ******* Elroy slopping it all over the insulator. That's a no-no for obvious reasons.

So as a result the manufactures take the safe way out and simply say don't use it.

Is the use of never-seize out dated ? Not even close.

WHT and some others here need to open their minds and see the big picture

So it appears that you and I are pretty much on the same page when you step back and look at things. Going with the OE recommendation is the safest bet, and reduces your chances of problems with potential issues. Just so happens that most manufacturers of modern vehicles no longer recommend the use of antiseize when installing plugs, because they have already taken measures to prevent the corrosion issues by specifying coated plugs.

Also to note, is that the OE recommendation includes torque specs as well as the use of antisieze (or not) on plugs. I'd go ahead and wager that the majority of problems with the removal of plugs from alloy heads are because of over tightening, and those advocating the use of antiseize aren't torquing plugs to spec on install as well. Perhaps the use of antiseize helps to mask the effects of over tightening the plug upon removal, making it seem as if the plug is coming out "easier" than if no antiseize had been used.

Is the use of antiseize outdated? Nope, just the method of application. Just as I said in my first post to this thread, "when working on a modern engine and installing OE plugs..."

Note that I said nothing about older engines or in regards to uncoated plugs, where a bit of antiseize would be appropriate. People just need to be aware that "a bit" should be just enough to lightly coat the threads on install, and barely be noticeable on removal. Any more than that, and you are getting ready to toe the line between solving future problems and creating current issues.

I think that the "big picture" is that there is no correct answer to the debate about using antiseize on sparkplugs, other than "it depends"...
 
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mrbreezeet1

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The plug would then run cooler then ,correct?

Some manf. specifically recommend against it. I know the Bosch plugs I put in my car specifically stated no anti-seize. Do what you want but I follow recommendations. I figure they know more than me.
My boss knows more than the manufacture.
Thanks,
Tony
 
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mrholeshot

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I was born and raised in England so rust is not unfamiliar to me. I still think it's moronic to put anti-seize on lugs.



We could if people here believed facts and evidence more than what their mechanic buddy told them.

It's not like the guy only just posted that info......

If you owned a boat and backed the trailer into saltwater you would know why. My race car uses 3 inch lug studs and nuts. It makes the torque more accurate. It just makes more sence to prevent failure than to experiance it
 

garfunkle24

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If you owned a boat and backed the trailer into saltwater you would know why. My race car uses 3 inch lug studs and nuts. It makes the torque more accurate. It just makes more sence to prevent failure than to experiance it

I was talking about normal/general use, not submerging things in saltwater......:)
 

mrholeshot

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3"??? Why?

Required that studs have at least one exposed thread. Racing wheels like Weld have a center section between the two wheel sides. It requires lug nuts about 2.75 inches to go though the wheel. In onrder for the wheel stud to show through the nut it has to be 3 inches or more. It's for added strength and safety and required by NHRA and IHRA
 

Gareth68

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I work on boats quite often.

Green marine grease is used, never antisieze.

Salt water and antiseize is bad juju.

Galvanic corrosion is the result.

Now, there are specific marine antiseizes...they are moly infused grease.

But green grease works fine.

But hey, do whatever you want.

You have already proven you think you know more than engineers...so why would you listen here either.
 

Sprintman

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NGK have trivalent coating. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes all say do NOT use any seize on plugs. Never had trouble in our shop with plug removal on any plugs so no I don't use it. Correct torque on plugs is more important
 

shoggoth80

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You work with an idiot.
I use anti-seize on sparkies. I don't like the idea of taking threads with the plugs doing a swap. Don't use much, doesn't take much. I save the packets of the copper stuff that comes with the Denso branded O2 sensors. They give you way more than needed for the sensor. Lol. I also grease the spark plug boots too. I've had to replace plug wires because previous guys didn't do this, and the rubber basically welded itself the the ceramic. Anti-seize is the opposite of hard to remove. Lol.
 

Bennylava

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From WHT's article:

"Engine oil or grease used to lubricate a spark plug thread (and in many anti-seize compounds) can carbonize and stick a plug."

Sounds like the guy from the OP may be right, according to the manufacturers. Personally I've never used, nor have I ever needed any antiseize on spark plugs. Even on old worn out stuff, the plugs have always come out with a bit of effort.

What cars are you guys working on, that spark plugs are continually breaking off, and thus a solution (like antiseize) is called for? The only one I've ever heard of was the whole Ford debacle, on their 3 valve engines that they don't even make anymore. But that was a big issue with the plugs themselves, and not related to lack of antiseize. Then again, you never know, antiseize may have helped in that one particular instance. But personally, (knock on wood and all) I've never really had any trouble getting spark plugs out. Have you?

If there is a real answer to be had, I'd think all one would need to do, would be to look to OEM vehicles. If you go buy a brand new car or truck, is there antiseize on the plugs if you pull one out? If yes, then on that vehicle, its probably a good idea. If no, you can probably skip it. The Automakers are going to know that the engine will need new plugs in 150k miles (give or take some) and they'll either put antiseize, or not, accordingly. Then again I live in TX and that may be the whole reason I don't see a lot of trouble with removing old plugs. Reading the thread, it really sounds like its called for in some instances, and you probably shouldn't use it in other instances. Some of the spark plugs even seem to already have it on there.

Which antiseize should be used on plugs, anyway? Hopefully ARP makes something.
 
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pozidriv

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Well I just read this whole (btw old) thread and I'm just glad that Elroy guy got banned :)

Why is it moronic to put some copper anti-seize on lugnuts? I drive a '86 car and have never seized them ever since I was advised to do it...

Also after reading this thread: "everything is relative"!
 
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