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Anyone Tear Down a House?

mrbc

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Their problem, not yours. :p
Um, nope. If it's close enough to exposures for the OP to think twice, it's too close for sure. If it's in the "ghetto", likely none of the home are well kept, and home like that tend to burn easily. How do I know? Firefighter, 20 years on the job. Jacksonville where? (edit: I see, FL) Within city limits, the FD probably can't do a live burn because of air quality regulations, etc. If there is an "accident," beware, the fire investigator will probably figure it out pretty quick.
 
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Rusted Nut

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First, make sure all asbestos abatement permits are in order. You may be able to place non friable asbestos in the trash, but probably not friable. You will need to contain any dust.

From looking at the photos, you could rent a mid sized excavator with a thumb and have the entire structure loaded up and hauled off in a couple 40 yard end dumps in a day.
 

mrbc

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I'm kind of surprised a hurricane hasn't wiped it out already....
 

ColoradoMech

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I am a project manager at an asbestos company. I will tell you right now if your drywall/plaster has ACM (Asbestos containing material) above 2% it will be VERY expensive to remove. Just did a bathroom gut (walls + ceiling) for $8,000. We charge $3500/day for work and a house like that is anywhere from 2-4 weeks worth of work depending how much ACM it has and thats not including debris removal which is $3500/dumpster. Looks like its got transite on the exterior which can be ACM. Being that its 105 years old its most likely plaster and lath and the plaster will probably test hot. Any remodels will also most likely test hot if it was done prior to 1982. Houses like this are notorious for having multiple layers on the walls/ceilings/floors. The outer layer may be clean but the layer or 2 beneath can be hot. Pipe insulation will most likely be hot as well if has any.

Most areas require a demo permit and part of that is an asbestos/lead test. If you were to demo it yourself and word gets out, you are responsible for the asbestos spill that was created and everywhere that waste went now becomes a spill zone and needs to be cleaned unless proven otherwise. Believe me when I say it is a huge ******* deal. In the industry you as a worker can face prison time if we maliciously do not follow the regulation and I have seen it enforced.

Just be careful is all im saying.
 

ColoradoMech

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First, make sure all asbestos abatement permits are in order. You may be able to place non friable asbestos in the trash, but probably not friable. You will need to contain any dust.

Friability does not matter for disposal. All ACM must be wetted down during remval and go into a bag with regulation asbests print and be double bagged. Then it goes to the dump to the asbestos pit where it get burried by 9" of soil or 18" or trash every night. Throwing it in the trash/normal dumpster will get you sued out of your house in a heartbeat.
 

Rusted Nut

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Friability does not matter for disposal. All ACM must be wetted down during remval and go into a bag with regulation asbests print and be double bagged. Then it goes to the dump to the asbestos pit where it get burried by 9" of soil or 18" or trash every night. Throwing it in the trash/normal dumpster will get you sued out of your house in a heartbeat.
I was quoting the OP when I stated about placing ACM in the trash. Certainly not allowed where I am .
 

Beemer

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Your picture reminds me of a former client of mine who had a tiff with his wife one day over renovation plans.
When he came home for lunch he found that she had a cable attached to the front porch and to their tractor.
 

walta

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Dutzow Missouri
Just because you are the current owner and want it down does not mean the city will agree and issue you the required demolition permit. Most cities do not like vacant lots and short of an engineer’s report declaring the current building a hazard it seems unlikely will issue a permit. As old is it is seems likely you may also be in a historic district with extra regulations.



Walta
 

Uncle murph

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I'm very tempted to do this myself, even if it is little by little. The front porch will easily come down as will a back addition. That would leave the house structure. Yep, remove the windows and siding and then a match, er, I mean a little demo work and she's down like a cheap date.
I know it’s tongue in cheek but Baltimore has lost several firefighters in the last few years fighting fires in vacant buildings,typically started by homeless/squatters.Be prepared to do 15-20 if you go the easy route.
 

mepstein

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I would start taking down the additions and if you decide it’s not your thing, hire out the rest.
 

mikegt4

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sw ohio
50+ years ago when a college student I spent a couple of summers working for a friend who had just started a demolition business (now run by his son) and if DIY the first thing you should do is update your tetanus shot. It was very dirty and dangerous work although watching walls crash down was very satisfying until they landed on the neighbor's property.

Actually in a city like Jacksonville (my brother lived there) the probability of a DIY teardown of a house isn't very good. The city will likely require tons of permits and inspections along with insurance specific to the job and that is before even getting into the asbestos issues. Don't forget about the utilities all have to be caped off by their respective suppliers ($$$) and the city inspectors will watch closely that you are not burying any of the debris on the property.
 

djbmw

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Assuming you don't need to get permits and do it to anyone's standards .... Make sure there's no gas, electricity, water, or sewage connected (and if there is, disconnect all that stuff first),... then get a decent sized skid steer with a grapple and go at it! Call in a rolling bin/dumpster - load it up, and call it a day. Total cost for the rental skid steer, diesel, and the dumpster will likely be under $1200 total.
 

Boogerman

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aspen cove hill
Assuming you don't need to get permits and do it to anyone's standards .... Make sure there's no gas, electricity, water, or sewage connected (and if there is, disconnect all that stuff first),... then get a decent sized skid steer with a grapple and go at it! Call in a rolling bin/dumpster - load it up, and call it a day. Total cost for the rental skid steer, diesel, and the dumpster will likely be under $1200 total.
Your costs are about 30 years out of date, or things are a lot cheaper in Canada.

His tipping fee costs at the landfill are $30.30 per ton:

1702491502624.png




Dumpster rental is $620, and only includes 3 ton; overage is charged at $65 per ton.



1702491759725.png


For a project of this size, if space is available, better to demo, pile, and then hire a truck to haul loads instead of a rolloff.

Loaders rent for about $550 per day, and probably 3 days total use on this job, depending on the truck schedule.

1702492018152.png


Tonnage on a house demo like this is typically about 50 pounds per square foot of house, maybe a bit lighter since it has minimal foundation.

I've estimated and done work like this for nearly 50 years. It's not a $15,000 job if you DIY; but it's also not a $1200 job.

In my area, I'd take this on for about $10K, and make extremely good money per day doing it. And, I'd have to rent the loader and contract the truck.
 
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tinmanwpk

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I have a contact in an Environmental firm who I can and will contact before I do anything. Reading the Florida laws and statutes is confusing and difficult - no straight answers. It's best that I discuss with a knowledgeable individual before I take a misstep.

I will report back when I am playing with a full deck of cards.
 

djbmw

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Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Your costs are about 30 years out of date, or things are a lot cheaper in Canada.
Yikes! The costs in your area are STEEEEEP!

Rental of a skid steer of the same capacity is $275 CAD/day ($200 USD) or $900/week ($662 USD) in my neck of the woods. Of course, you'd need to pick up the machine with your own float trailer... or pay $90 CAD delivery fee. OP lives 3 blocks away so he could just drive it down the road.

20 yard Dumpsters in the area rent out for $140 CAD/week ($103 USD) which includes pick up, drop off, and 1 tonne tipping. Additional tonnage is $110 CAD ($80 USD)/tonne.

I'm not sure about the 50 lb/sq. ft measurement but If we use it in the calculation (50 lb x 1153 sq/ft) = 57,650 lb (26 tonnes).

All told its $3165 CAD ($2329 USD). The biggest cost factor is the tipping fees. If you can sell or burn the lumber,.. and burry the brick,.. you can easily cut that weight in half.
 
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Zeke

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I forgot to mention that here in my city I have to post a bond for any demo. Any. If I show receipts for the debris separated and all the recyclables recycled and the weights jibe with the job, I get my bond money back. So I need separate dumpsters or pick up in separated lots to be weighed at the disposal/recycle facility.

For example: all concrete is to be separated from dirt and other debris. All metal goes in one pile. Wood and compostable stuff in another. Certain plastics (not common) are tagged for recycle. Finally what rubble is left has to be rake clean and dumped at about $80/ton last I knew. That would be plaster, tile, non wood roofing, carpets, drywall, fiberglass showers and tubs and vinyl flooring (which has to be tested for asbestos if an underlying floor was installed before the ban in the 70's). I'm not sure about glass. If it is free of sash as in large plate glass it is recyclable, but IDT that is mandatory. If it is in wood sash the wood has to be tested for lead paint. Any painted wood has to be tested before disposal, but it can still be just bagged and tossed in the bin.

So painted wood siding doesn't go in with the framing lumber.
 

Fixr

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I have a contact in an Environmental firm who I can and will contact before I do anything. Reading the Florida laws and statutes is confusing and difficult - no straight answers. It's best that I discuss with a knowledgeable individual before I take a misstep.

I will report back when I am playing with a full deck of cards.
There is a lot of variation and room for interpretation in environmental regulations. I worked as a field tech for an environmental company for over a decade, and the decisions coming from the state DEQ varied wildly depending on which DEQ employee made the decisions, and also on which political party was in office at the time. Whatever you do, work very hard at not ******* off the people who make the decisions about your case.

It may be that demolition is not feasible. You might do best to remove the porches and leave all of the ACM in place on the remaining structure, and paint the whole thing Disney "don't look at me green". Pretty much depends on the various AHJs involved. Good luck.
 

Zeke

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Yeah, but if he can't insure it then it's a liability in more ways than one. I think the best idea in this thread is to investigate what anything recyclable is worth. Real 100 year old anything house wise has some value to someone.

Lots of historic structures all over in that region all the way to Savannah.
 

LB-1911

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I have a contact in an Environmental firm who I can and will contact before I do anything. Reading the Florida laws and statutes is confusing and difficult - no straight answers. It's best that I discuss with a knowledgeable individual before I take a misstep.

I will report back when I am playing with a full deck of cards.
(y)
Good Luck w/your project.
:beer:
 

cliffcharb

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North Port, Fl
Cant say I've ever demo'd a house, but I'm in the C&D disposal & hauling business. Here in SW Florida demolition permits do require testing for hazardous materials.
We haul ACM and its required to be double bagged, and the landfill is to be notified as they locate that material. It can't just be thrown with the trash. Friable asbestos is a whole other story, and is typically only sent to specific landfills. Non-friable can easily be turned into friable by improper handling. There are also manifests between contractors , haulers and final disposal location.
Good luck in your decision.
 

driftpin

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Don't forget to remove the meth lab first.
I am a retired State of Florida licensed plans examiner and Lifesafety Inspector, and also other qualifications, dealing with issues such as you're facing. Since you're dealing with issues under Florida Statutes, my perspective is congruent with your present situation.

As an assistant fire marshal in Florida, I took a course in meth labs recognition, mitigation, and legal aspects. It was given by a Louisiana-Monroe LEO who had a FEMA federal contract to travel across the country to present the program to fire jurisdictions. It was one of the best programs I've attended in the fire service, and I've been to a lot of them, as a Fire Service Instructor III and assistant professor of EMS. He had to travel with a notarized letter from the DEA because he was literally travelling on airlines with a portable meth lab, and the components had enough residue on them to alert a trained drug-interdiction dog he might encounter.

There was so-much content, it's beyond my intent to use that to address the thread here. To begin:

:willy_nilDo not remove the meth lab!!:scared:

It may have changed since I took the class, but if the local LEO's or FD initiates the meth lab disassembly, they are on the hook for the entire cost of the procedure! Depending upon the size of the operation, this could go into six-figures! Obviously this is not what a local jurisdiction is going to want to bear (see the next paragraph). As for you being a registered property owner, what is your opinion of how you wish to proceed, entering the dwelling, and finding what you suspect to be a methamphetamine-producing operation? Even if it's been abandoned in-place, the regulations still apply. Obviously, you're likely not going to be licensed for this, so leave it all alone!

The federal government has clean-up crews who specialize in this process, taking-down methamphetamine production sites all across the country. The local AHJ contacts DEA, and DEA send-out the clean-up crew. Remember, if the local PD or FD begins disassembly, it's going to continue and on their dime. "Who's the RPO of this parcel?" Guess who they're going to be billing! An interesting fact, at the time I took this class, the only state in the USA allowed to do their own disassembly and mitigation was the State of Missouri, which says something about the frequency of such illegal operations to be found there.

We were shown LEO video camera footage of traffic stops turning into blazing gun battles with methamphetamine trafficers, mobile labs like in Breaking Bad, and some which were much-more insidious. You can have a portable meth lab in a 1 gallon Igloo plastic cooler container, or a 2 liter soda bottle, capable of turning out $1,500 of methamphetamine in a few days. One of the videos showed a nighttime stop by a LEO who decided he wanted to use his sense of smell to detect something illegal in a Igloo insulated container, as described above. Yes it was a portable methamphetamine container, with a batch 'cooking,' and after he used his proboscis, putting it in a place it shouldn't have-been, he threw-away the container, allowing it to spill its contents on the open trunk and the ground (haz-mat site!) and probably onto his uniform and body, from the splatter. That one careless error on his behalf caused him a permanent disability as it damaged his lungs. These types of things are nothing for untrained, ignorant registered property owners to attempt. A word to the wise... .


Just because you are the current owner and want it down does not mean the city will agree and issue you the required demolition permit. Most cities do not like vacant lots and short of an engineer’s report declaring the current building a hazard it seems unlikely will issue a permit. As old is it is seems likely you may also be in a historic district with extra regulations.

Walta
"Many cities do not like vacant lots,,," is a statement with which I will take issue. Land development code regulations and ordinances are in the category of 'shall issue.' If your proposed plan meets those criteria, the AHJ must issue the necessary permits to allow you to exercise your land development rights. The Second Amendment people are probably familiar with this language in states where it applies for firearms licensing. If you want to build a structure this week, and demolish it next week, you are exercising your land development rights. Oh, they can complain about losing increased taxation due them because a developed parcel generates more taxes than an undeveloped site, but if you're removing a decrepit structure which had been condemned as a public nuisance, an unsafe structure, and a place where habitation by criminals or vagrants, where multiple police calls for drug use and fire alarms for structure fires, the need to protect the residents and visitors to the community, and adjacent/near-by occupancies is going to make it an easy time of rapid processing the parcel for demolition.

In the jurisdiction I worked as a firefighter-paramedic, there was a row of homes on one street which was rental housing. The homes were single-story attached apartments and we were constantly in them for rescue calls, the PD was in there for drug sales and use, and it was a trouble-spot for years. The RPO would evict one set of criminal tenants, and another set would move-in. One factor in their existence that kept them periodically refurbished was that they were Section 8 low-income housing.

The municipality finally had-enough. The went through the courts, and one day, the heavy equipment came-in and levelled the parcels with the 'problem' occupancies. The city put together some contiguous parcels and a new development was done for affordable housing. The kicker was that the RPO all this time was a State of Florida Congress member.

If you take a look at my prior post, you will see that I mentioned most of what content many others put in their contributions. A preponderance of the evidence continually emphasizes what you are facing. I think you want to do the right thing here, and you're to be commended for wanting to do things with economy in-mind while following regulations. Getting someone whom you can trust who you know has the proper licensing to help you navigate the land development code may be the wisest money you ever-spend on this.

Remember, if you have questions, ask them of the AHJ and don't be afraid to ask for citations on a particular matter. As is often heard to be said by the plans review people, "we're not going to teach you the code, get a professional and hire them." But you can ask for a determination letter to settle a specific question you may have about a decision handed to you by a plans examiner from whatever department (typically structural, electrical, plumbing, mechanical, engineering, or zoning) and it may cost you staff time, and that fee should be somewhere in the AHJ code of ordinances, so you proceed to the end result you want, and are entitled to under the land development code.
 
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PugetDude

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Tore down a little rental house in Wyoming 20+years ago. Asbestos siding was bagged and tossed in the dumpster with regular household waste. Most of the bulk demo (roofing, windows, HVAC etc) went to the landfill, the framing lumber was hauled away by a guy building a garage. Masonry was pushed into the crawl space and buried. Only real costs were for the utility disconnects. No permits or inspections, IIRC. (Really small town.)
It took four of us a long weekend.

Times have changed.
 
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tinmanwpk

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Jacksonville
I am a retired State of Florida licensed plans examiner and Lifesafety Inspector, and also other qualifications, dealing with issues such as you're facing. Since you're dealing with issues under Florida Statutes, my perspective is congruent with your present situation.

As an assistant fire marshal in Florida, I took a course in meth labs recognition, mitigation, and legal aspects. It was given by a Louisiana-Monroe LEO who had a FEMA federal contract to travel across the country to present the program to fire jurisdictions. It was one of the best programs I've attended in the fire service, and I've been to a lot of them, as a Fire Service Instructor III and assistant professor of EMS. He had to travel with a notarized letter from the DEA because he was literally travelling on airlines with a portable meth lab, and the components had enough residue on them to alert a trained drug-interdiction dog he might encounter.

There was so-much content, it's beyond my intent to use that to address the thread here. To begin:

:willy_nilDo not remove the meth lab!!:scared:

It may have changed since I took the class, but if the local LEO's or FD initiates the meth lab disassembly, they are on the hook for the entire cost of the procedure! Depending upon the size of the operation, this could go into six-figures! Obviously this is not what a local jurisdiction is going to want to bear (see the next paragraph). As for you being a registered property owner, what is your opinion of how you wish to proceed, entering the dwelling, and finding what you suspect to be a methamphetamine-producing operation? Even if it's been abandoned in-place, the regulations still apply. Obviously, you're likely not going to be licensed for this, so leave it all alone!

The federal government has clean-up crews who specialize in this process, taking-down methamphetamine production sites all across the country. The local AHJ contacts DEA, and DEA send-out the clean-up crew. Remember, if the local PD or FD begins disassembly, it's going to continue and on their dime. "Who's the RPO of this parcel?" Guess who they're going to be billing! An interesting fact, at the time I took this class, the only state in the USA allowed to do their own disassembly and mitigation was the State of Missouri, which says something about the frequency of such illegal operations to be found there.

We were shown LEO video camera footage of traffic stops turning into blazing gun battles with methamphetamine trafficers, mobile labs like in Breaking Bad, and some which were much-more insidious. You can have a portable meth lab in a 1 gallon Igloo plastic cooler container, or a 2 liter soda bottle, capable of turning out $1,500 of methamphetamine in a few days. One of the videos showed a nighttime stop by a LEO who decided he wanted to use his sense of smell to detect something illegal in a Igloo insulated container, as described above. Yes it was a portable methamphetamine container, with a batch 'cooking,' and after he used his proboscis, putting it in a place it shouldn't have-been, he threw-away the container, allowing it to spill its contents on the open trunk and the ground (haz-mat site!) and probably onto his uniform and body, from the splatter. That one careless error on his behalf caused him a permanent disability as it damaged his lungs. These types of things are nothing for untrained, ignorant registered property owners to attempt. A word to the wise... .
I appreciate the information. I must make the clarification that I never mentioned "Meth Lab". Someone else mentioned it, probably in jest after they looked at the condition of the house. It never has been used as a meth lab. I just wanted to make sure we all know the facts. Again, I thank you for that. If I knew it was being used as a meth lab I would have been the first to call the local authorities.
 
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tinmanwpk

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I talked with a professional environmental firm yesterday. As a homeowner I have the absolute right to remove the asbestos myself, bag it and then place it in a regular garbage can for the garbage men to pick up on my normal garbage day. The logic is, as I was told by this professional, is that asbestos removal is not something the normal homeowner does all the time, more of a "one shot deal", so "no harm, no foul". Same for the garbage men - a one time pickup, not something they do every day so it's "okay" for them to possibly be exposed. Remember, I don't make the laws, I can only follow them.

That being said, before any demolition I have to get a demolition permit along with other permits. On the demo permit is a box to check stating that I got a professional asbestos inspection. My contact told me some folks just check the box and hope they are not randomly inspected. I told my friend, "Not me!" Since my friend does this professionally I would have them perform the inspection (of course for a fee). What I do need to do is first talk with the City Zoning people - anonymously - and ask questions BEFORE I get this asbestos inspection. Once I get the asbestos inspection there is no turning back - I am fully committed to doing it with professional inspection and removal. But the next thing he told me is that I will (probably) only have to do "wet demolition" meaning someone with a hose must spray down all the asbestos with a hose to keep it from becoming airborne during the mechanical demolition. This is the major question I need answered before I get into this project, and I need to do it anonymously. We know there is asbestos in the siding, and that is easily removed. But there is no doubt asbestos in the interior plaster, and that is something I do not intend to do myself. Hence the "wet demo". And it we have to go the wet demo route then why remove the siding myself, just have the demo experts do it all at one time.

A simple task has may layers of complexity. Looks like there is no simple and easy way out with this. Looks like the professional way all the way.
 

driftpin

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I think you have come to a logical conclusion. Someone attempting to skirt the regulations for asbestos mitigation when it's discovered by an AHJ will be facing stiff punitive fines. I am not saying that is you! Remember that you can ask for a determination letter, where your obligation to request appropriate permits is narrowly and specifically defined. This may cost you some fee, as I previously described, but should you have to go to a court of law, and you proffer this determination letter to the court, it serves as proof that you made a good-faith attempt to comply with regulations, codes, and ordinances governing your scope of work.

Zoning is probably not the office with whom you would have contact about asbestos. I suspect it would be the engineering department, plumbing (if the pipes are wrapped in insulation, or mechanical (ductwork or other places where HVAC equipment may have used asbestos. Structural may be the last, where the plaster could contain asbestos.

I posted the city of Jacksonville code section about unsafe structures, did you read it? There you should find helpful information. Has the city ever condemned the building? The procedure after condemnation to remove it should explain how you apply to remove it.

In the process of removal don't forget to remove any structural or service connections below-grade. You want a cleared 'brownfield' site suitable for development and cleared of any rubble, above or below-grade.
 
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tinmanwpk

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Electrical is gone as had the utility remove the power back to their trunk lines. That leaves only water, which will be easy, and the sanitary. The sanitary, ahh, the sanitary. I've been told by demo companies that I need to pay $500 - $600 for a permit and have a professional pull the permit! That's another thing I need to look into. The cap is less than $10 and is easily something I can do myself, but to have and to pay for a professional to do this is ludicrous.
 

pcmeiners

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"I may be dumb but I'm not stupid."

Worry not, I went through a good lot of posts, it seem >50% do not even read OP posts. How many times do poster tell you about abatement permits and asbestos dump costs when you are not required. From an asbestos manager, you are legal to remove the asbestos yourself, especially outdoors.
I agree with hiring a machine with a claw/skilled guy and have dumpsters on site; not sure if you must remove the asbestos first. In less then 2hours the house will be leveled, in roughly 4 hours most of the remains will be in dumpsters.
 

mike93lx

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Electrical is gone as had the utility remove the power back to their trunk lines. That leaves only water, which will be easy, and the sanitary. The sanitary, ahh, the sanitary. I've been told by demo companies that I need to pay $500 - $600 for a permit and have a professional pull the permit! That's another thing I need to look into. The cap is less than $10 and is easily something I can do myself, but to have and to pay for a professional to do this is ludicrous.
Considering what could happen if it isn't done right, I am not surprised at the permitting requirement on that.
 

PugetDude

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The sanitary, ahh, the sanitary. I've been told by demo companies that I need to pay $500 - $600 for a permit and have a professional pull the permit! That's another thing I need to look into. The cap is less than $10 and is easily something I can do myself, but to have and to pay for a professional to do this is ludicrous.

What could possibly go wrong with a simple sewer line? Screenshot_20231214-122650-165.png
 
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