I did away with an old home on my property about 15 years ago. Here at the time, I needed a permit other than that I just rented an excavator and 40 yd dumpster (the dumpster rental was cheap but dumping it was not) Here in SE Va at that time at least, since it was a total demolition any asbestos and lead paint was considered diluted by the shear volume of the demolished structure it did not require any special considerations.
Anyone Tear Down a House?
- Thread starter tinmanwpk
- Start date
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
My brother recently had a house torn down. He hired a company to do the demolition and removal, but he did the coordination with the various utilities for disconnect of water, sewer, gas and electric. In all cases the utility required they do the work themselves, it wasn't something that could be done by him or the contractor. It was also pretty time consuming, in a couple of cases I think it took several months to get it done - you're not going to be able to call them up and get it done in a couple days.
That would be how I would do it.
Zeke
Well-known member
One way total rebuilds get away with a remodel permit here is to tear everything down but part of one wall and a fireplace if there is one. Can't build a new wook\d or gas burning FP here anymore, but that's not the point. They leave a lot of the foundation or some slab and try not to disturb the water, gas and sewer too much. Not anything outside of the foundation anyway.
Then they build essentially a new house where the old one was. It will be bigger and likely a totally different style of architecture.
I bring this up as a possibility to skirt some total demo restrictions. No one says you can't change your mind and resubmit a new plan, but you meanwhile get rid of the liability that you can't insure. Fence it off in the meantime. And put in a solar powered wifi alarm.
Then they build essentially a new house where the old one was. It will be bigger and likely a totally different style of architecture.
I bring this up as a possibility to skirt some total demo restrictions. No one says you can't change your mind and resubmit a new plan, but you meanwhile get rid of the liability that you can't insure. Fence it off in the meantime. And put in a solar powered wifi alarm.
Second this.
Remove whatever asbestos needs to be removed and yank down the rest in into a roll off.
That not that big of house.
As a kid, we had a huge two story (with full attic) 5 bedroom farmhouse, with slate roof. Of course my Dad wanted to salvage everything. Native lumber was so hard, could not pull out the old nails or drive in new ones.
Yours looks pretty easy IMO
I know where I am, it ha
I know here asbestos has to be abated by a professional.
driftpin
Well-known member
"Worry, yes!"
I think I may be the one of the few persons posting on this thread who has done a SFR demolition on a house in Florida. As a retired Florida licensed plans examiner and lifesafety inspector (among other state-awarded qualifications) one of the things we are averse to hearing, is, "how we do it in _______ ." (fill-in your state)
Perhaps the adopted Jacksonville code of ordinances for enforcement actions would carry more weight for you:
Sec. 320.706. - Noncompliance.
SHARE LINK TO SECTIONPRINT SECTIONDOWNLOAD (DOCX) OF SECTIONSEMAIL SECTION
(1)
Any person, firm, corporation or agent who violates a provision of this building code or of codes hereby adopted by reference, including the tenant, lessee or manager of any leased, rented or managed property, who fails to comply therewith or with any of the requirements thereof or who erects, constructs, alters or repairs or has erected, constructed, altered or repaired a building, structure, electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system in violation of a detailed statement or plan submitted and permitted thereunder shall, upon conviction thereof, be guilty of a class D offense and punished accordingly.
(2)
The City is authorized to file a civil action in a court of competent jurisdiction for civil penalties as follows:
(a)
The civil penalty for violations committed by an unlicensed, uncertified individual to perform work or by a property owner who performed such work him or her self on any structure or property regulated under this Chapter shall be as follows:
(1)
$1,000 for a first violation;
(2)
$2,000 for a second violation; and
(3)
$3,000 civil penalty for a third or subsequent violation, and the violator shall be prohibited from obtaining a building permit for work not associated with the correction of the violation for a period of three months.
Additionally, the violator shall be prohibited from applying for any permit until such civil penalty awarded pursuant to this Section has been paid in full. Prohibitions against issuance of a building permit contemplated in this Section shall not become effective until the judgment requiring such prohibition becomes final.
As is often mentioned, ignorance of the law is not accepted as a viable defense. The stakes in this scope of work proposed dwarf the legal cost compared to the cost of ignoring the legal process, and then being caught-out.
In research concerning the regulations, codes or other controlling legislation in the State of Florida, where asbestos-containing material (ACM) is mentioned, I came-across an interesting criterion. While four or fewer residential units (one unit, one family) are eligible for some leeway in how the work to remove ACM is conducted, and the permitting required, if the SFR (single family residence) has been used in the past in a commercial capacity, it loses the exceptions mentioned for four or fewer residences, and must comply with the Florida Administrative Code for facilities where ACM is present.
The Florida Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) administers an asbestos removal program under Chapter 62- 257, Florida Administrative Code. The Asbestos NESHAP has been adopted by reference in Section 62-204.800, Florida Administrative Code (FAC).
Another issue which should be mentioned is that since the parcel is contiguous to a commercial facility owned by the same RPO there is a possibility that if the scope of work is to include anything on the adjoining commercial site then the SFR and the adjoining facility together fall under the FAC mentioned above ("Part of a larger installation"). The SFR is not then eligible to benefit from the 'four dwelling units or less' exception. In a similar vein, doing the demolition of the SFR first, and them applying to do demolition on the adjoining site could be construed by the AHJ as an attempt to skirt the FAC governing ACM regulation. That is definitely a case for legal counsel.
I'm not trying to be a 'nattering nabob of negativism' as one of our federal office-holders once called it, but while either a licensed asbestos contractor or the RPO can apply for the permits, if it is required and not done, then the legal burden can extend to both.
In accordance with Section 112 of the Clean Air Act (CAA), EPA established National Emissions Standards for Hazardous Air Pollutants (NESHAP) to protect the public. In 1982, EPA delegated primary authority for the implementation and enforcement of the Asbestos NESHAP to the state of Florida. Currently it lies within the Florida Division of Air Resource Management. The NESHAP regulation states that either the owner of the building or operator of the demolition or renovation operation can submit the notification. Usually, the two parties decide together who will notify. If no adequate notice is provided, one or both parties can be held liable.
This is not an example of simply getting a permit for a detached garage on your property. It is much-more involved. The punitive costs to the RPO for ignoring the process in-place for dealing with ACM are onerous and financially burdensome. You would expect that the permitting would cover all the issues. However, before any work is begun (are you familiar with the State of Florida required document for 'notice of commencement?' This protects you from liens by unpaid sub-contractors or problems with your AHJ), I would want to see those documents posted at the site as they are required to be. No, "we expect all the permits approved this week, we're going to get a head-start on this. I cannot afford any crew downtime."
Neither can you. I always tell the permit applicant, "I have the simplest of requests for approval. Comply with code."
Youngandfree
Well-known member
OP you said the "homeowner" can do the demo without any consideration other than getting the asbestos test and permits. Towards the end of that paragraph you mentioned having the demo contractor do all of the asbestos removal, siding and interior. That sounds like youbwill be turning it into an abatement situation and adding $$$ to the project, vs Harry Homeowner getting the permit and doing the demo himself and bagging the wet asbestos and tossing in a dumpster.
Zeke
Well-known member
That's what I meant by 'resubmitting'. You simply change your mind about building anything at all and finish the demo. What I was thinking was this is a way to deal with the utility delays. Once 95% of the house is gone, you can wait for the utility companies for as long as it takes. Then just get a guy with a loader and a dump to pick up the rest and rake it clean.
Just offering some creative thought to jump some potential hurdles. It helps to have plan A, B and maybe C. Calling the AHJ might trigger a response that you won't like. Some building departments have online info with good information. Working with a demo company might be the easiest way to do this. I'm sure the expense is deductible in some way so I would consult with an accountant to see how that might be handled. I found this regarding burning just in case:
"The Tax Court agreed with the IRS that after the house was contributed and burned down, the taxpayer ended up with a more valuable tract of clear land than he had before the donation. The court nevertheless concluded that the benefit the taxpayer received was far less than the benefit the fire department received. As a result, the taxpayer was allowed a charitable contribution deduction equal to the house’s fair market value. Taxpayers can obtain a charitable contribution deduction for the fair market value of property (that is, land improvements) donated to a fire department to be burned down. The deduction is allowed even when there is no formal deed recording the transfer and even when the underlying land is not transferred. The taxpayer needs to properly structure the transaction so that the property, and not just the right to use the property, is being donated.
You never know until you ask.
Edit: the city might want to see plans for whatever you would be pretending to build so my first call would be to them without giving the address. Meanwhile, perhaps you can pull down the shingles one side at a time on weekends to avoid that issue. Just be sure how you are going to dispose of them. And as I said, in addition to many wise comments here, take it seriously. Cover the ground with 4 mil plastic and roll that up with the crumbs. Don't let the minor debris mix with the soil or you will be removing soil. Same with lead. Demo has to be done cleanly now. The only permissible debris that can be left behind is stuff that is inert, for lack of a better word. Bits of concrete, brick and plaster that does not test positive for lead is OK AFAIK. Lead tests kits are like 20 bucks.
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pcmeiners
Well-known member
"Worry not, I went through a good lot of posts, it seem >50% do not even read OP posts."
The OP stated he was able to remove any asbestos himself and dispose of it legally if he removed it himself per his original post. I did not infer he could ignore laws or permits. Federally a homeowner is allowed to remove asbestos himself, states/counties may have laws which are more restrictive. My point was many replies are by users with no knowledge of asbestos management, giving false information.
The OP stated he was able to remove any asbestos himself and dispose of it legally if he removed it himself per his original post. I did not infer he could ignore laws or permits. Federally a homeowner is allowed to remove asbestos himself, states/counties may have laws which are more restrictive. My point was many replies are by users with no knowledge of asbestos management, giving false information.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"Worry not, I went through a good lot of posts, it seem >50% do not even read OP posts."
The OP stated he was able to remove any asbestos himself and dispose of it legally if he removed it himself. I did not infer he could ignore laws or permit. Federally a homeowner is allowed to remove asbestos himself, states may have laws which are more restrictive.
An example of the false info...
"Here in ny abatement is very expensive and the homeowner could never abate friable asbestos"...... read the link
The OP stated he was able to remove any asbestos himself and dispose of it legally if he removed it himself. I did not infer he could ignore laws or permit. Federally a homeowner is allowed to remove asbestos himself, states may have laws which are more restrictive.
An example of the false info...
"Here in ny abatement is very expensive and the homeowner could never abate friable asbestos"...... read the link
driftpin
Well-known member
I agree with you there.
Zeke said:
That's what I meant by 'resubmitting'. You simply change your mind about building anything at all and finish the demo. What I was thinking was this is a way to deal with the utility delays. Once 95% of the house is gone, you can wait for the utility companies for as long as it takes. Then just get a guy with a loader and a dump to pick up the rest and rake it clean.
Just offering some creative thought to jump some potential hurdles. It helps to have plan A, B and maybe C. Calling the AHJ might trigger a response that you won't like. Some building departments have online info with good information. Working with a demo company might be the easiest way to do this. I'm sure the expense is deductible in some way so I would consult with an accountant to see how that might be handled.
-End of post-
I tried to post relevant State of Florida information, since the O.P. is in Florida, and has to deal with the Florida Administrative Code and the local ordinances of his jurisdiction.
For example, his comment, "...it connects to my business property next door." opens up all-sorts of issues. As I mentioned if the SFR (single family residence) is on a parcel where there is a commercial or industrial facility (and facility is narrowly and specifically defined by both the federal government and Florida Administrative Code) then the up-to four single family dwellings exception under the federal and State of Florida regulations will not be in-effect. This refers to the way asbestos removal is handled.
A cold-call to an AHJ requesting information on procedures for a hypothetical parcel cannot be adequately answered because of such issues as I posted. The municipal employee will need to know the specific address, so they can see what's on the parcel and issues pertaining to it. That could include being classified as an 'overlay district,' or part of a historic district. What applies in one zoning district may not apply in the same zoning district classification where the parcel is included in an overlay district or a historic district.
The RPO can ask, as I mentioned in prior posts, for a determination letter, addressing in writing their issues of concern and being addressed in writing from the AHJ enumerating responses to those posed questions. I wrote many of those over the years here in the State of Florida, for the county government in which I worked. Interesting factoid: The City of Jacksonville and Duval County are the same land mass, and government, It's the largest municipality by land mass in the State of Florida. It's been that way since 1968.
Because of the myriad issues concerning asbestos removal, in the State of Florida, the fiscally-prudent way to handle the process is to use a licensed, bonded contractor with the certifications and licenses pertinent to this. The reason being is that should the well-intentioned but errant RPO commit an error in his subjective interpretation of asbestos removal and disposal, the outcome could be financially ruinous. In the end, that is my viewpoint. I processed my own asbestos paperwork when I demolished a SFR in Florida, but I had a licensed contractor with insurance and licenses, do the demolition. I filed a Notice of Commencement, which I mentioned earlier, which is mandatory for issuance of building permits in the State of Florida, It's there to protect you, the registered property owner.
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Just so everyone understands, I will be doing this by the book. I just have to read the book! I have a professional environmental advisor lined up to advise me. This will be done correctly. I am fully aware I just can't go in and bulldoze the place over the weekend and walk away.
There is some tremendous advice in here for which I am grateful. I just need to read and re-read everything and investigate online all that I can. This will not be a quick and dirty project. It is definitely going to take some time.
There is some tremendous advice in here for which I am grateful. I just need to read and re-read everything and investigate online all that I can. This will not be a quick and dirty project. It is definitely going to take some time.
LB-1911
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Zeke
Well-known member
I had the AB endorsement on my general contractor's license. You might think I'm just tossing out misinformation but what I'm really doing is trying to think out of the box in the OP's shoes. I let my license expire in 2018 because I am not active and no one asked to see it from when I got it in 1981 to when I let it go. Well, no customer. I did have to present it at some suppliers and building depts.
Generally, after dealing with cities and inspectors, what was a breeze in the 80's became ridiculous by the 2010's. I avoided the AHJ as much as possible. By then I was mainly in the window replacement business and I never pulled permits. A couple of times I was working under a permit and the inspector didn't measure for the placement of required tempered glass, e.g., 24" from any exterior door or less than 18" from the finish floor. And so on. I think the guy did look at the egress in the bedrooms. That was it. Idiots.
Here in my city a permit is required for replacing a garbage disposer. Water heaters as well as lifting a water closet in order to lay flooring. I imagine you can guess we don't comply with the money grab. True that each of the 2 examples need to be done correctly but one would hope that whoever is doing the installation can at least set a toilet w/o someone watching over him. Once it's set there's nothing to see anyway.
So there certainly is sound advice here and even I said the easy way is to hire this done. But if the OP doesn't have 15 grand and has an immanent liability, beyond my suggestion to fence it off, I'd see what wiggle room there is. I've always been on the customer's side. I don't like many other contractors or city and county officials. I finally got to the point that I didn't like the business after 50 years.
So, yeah, my opinions are biased.
Generally, after dealing with cities and inspectors, what was a breeze in the 80's became ridiculous by the 2010's. I avoided the AHJ as much as possible. By then I was mainly in the window replacement business and I never pulled permits. A couple of times I was working under a permit and the inspector didn't measure for the placement of required tempered glass, e.g., 24" from any exterior door or less than 18" from the finish floor. And so on. I think the guy did look at the egress in the bedrooms. That was it. Idiots.
Here in my city a permit is required for replacing a garbage disposer. Water heaters as well as lifting a water closet in order to lay flooring. I imagine you can guess we don't comply with the money grab. True that each of the 2 examples need to be done correctly but one would hope that whoever is doing the installation can at least set a toilet w/o someone watching over him. Once it's set there's nothing to see anyway.
So there certainly is sound advice here and even I said the easy way is to hire this done. But if the OP doesn't have 15 grand and has an immanent liability, beyond my suggestion to fence it off, I'd see what wiggle room there is. I've always been on the customer's side. I don't like many other contractors or city and county officials. I finally got to the point that I didn't like the business after 50 years.
So, yeah, my opinions are biased.
Youngandfree
Well-known member
2 seperate parcels side by side vs a sfr and a commercial on the same parcel is different isn't it?
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
And chain-smoked for 40 years.
djbmw
Well-known member
But... IF you did,... would the fine/penalty be more, or less, than jumping through those hoops? If the place is already falling apart on its own, perhaps one night the rest will "come down magically all by itself" (with a few straps connected to a truck).
It woule be interesting to crunch the numbers or see what the town considers "demolition" vs the house just falling apart "by itself".
Youngandfree
Well-known member
There was a guy in my rural area that wanted to take down his old farmhouse on his acreage. He lit it on fire. It only "cost him" a fine for failure to get a burn permit. Don't think the fire dept even extinguished it.
If it were mine, I tear off the porches first, "deal" with the siding (wear a mask?) then tear down the main part of the house.
Geez crappy sheet metal roofing? There's an hour or two worth of work and scrap value.
Spending more time fussing over what appears to be a really small house.
Looks like one could do the whole house with a sledge hammer and big pry bar, given no time frame.
Geez crappy sheet metal roofing? There's an hour or two worth of work and scrap value.
Spending more time fussing over what appears to be a really small house.
Looks like one could do the whole house with a sledge hammer and big pry bar, given no time frame.
I agree with your assessment of the front porch and that little back end addition. But remember there is probably an asbestos mitigation element for the interior plaster as well. Exterior siding only and I would do it all myself. If the interior comes into play then I will probably leave it to the pros.
I honestly don’t understand the problem.
If you hire a “pro” they’re going to wear a mask and charge you a whole bunch of money which you stated you didn’t want to spend.
FWIW that huge old house we tore down probably had a **** load of asbestos send it. I don’t think anybody so much is wore a mask.
We’re still alive 50 years later.
Tearing down any old house has probably a good guy to wear a mask, even if it doesn’t contain asbestos plenty of other unhealthy crud living in there
TomC750
Well-known member
I did a larger house with a good size excavator. It was a bit stubborn until I destroyed the stairwell. All in all took less than an hour. Piece of cake.
Maybe I missed it, but have actually contacted the city about requirements if you do it yourself?
Will they allow you to just smash it down and toss it in a dumpster?
You might be surprised of what they will allow.
I'm in a somewhat similar situation with a 100 + year old barn. Though the only utilities are a power line and the well head next to the building.
The roof is caving in and one end is collapsing inward. The siding might be worth a bit of cash, old barn wood. There is some old growth lumber in the structure also. The roof is made from asphalt shingles directly over shakes. I don't expect asbestos to be there but will have to check.
It's on our 7 acre farm outside city limits but the county is known to be difficult to work with.
If it was my choice I'd build a shop and move everything out first then knock it down myself. It shouldn't take much more than a tractor and chains to pull it over.
There is still a lot of tools and equipment stored in the dry end of it.
I'm I way off or is it reasonable to rent a backhoe and have a demo party?
The roof is caving in and one end is collapsing inward. The siding might be worth a bit of cash, old barn wood. There is some old growth lumber in the structure also. The roof is made from asphalt shingles directly over shakes. I don't expect asbestos to be there but will have to check.
It's on our 7 acre farm outside city limits but the county is known to be difficult to work with.
If it was my choice I'd build a shop and move everything out first then knock it down myself. It shouldn't take much more than a tractor and chains to pull it over.
There is still a lot of tools and equipment stored in the dry end of it.
I'm I way off or is it reasonable to rent a backhoe and have a demo party?
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"Sure if you **** on boiler pipe insulation for 20 years"
Or beat the boiler insulation with sticks at 4 years old.
"The asbestos will continue to become airborne and deadly if it is merely demolished and left there."
Asbestos is not nearly as deadly as propagandized, yes if your are mice or rats living in it or miners or you worked with it for long periods you have problem .
World wide (WHO)
"It is estimated that currently about 125 million people in the world are exposed to asbestos at the workplace. According to WHO estimates, more than 90,000 people die each year from asbestos-related lung cancer, mesothelioma and asbestosis resulting from occupational exposures."
Just in the USA, deaths per year.......
Heart disease: 695,547
Cancer: 605,213
COVID-19: 416,893
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 224,935
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 162,890
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 142,342
.
..........................................Your fast food meals or frequent steak dinners are more likely to kill you . Your more likely to die crossing a street in NYC
Or beat the boiler insulation with sticks at 4 years old.
"The asbestos will continue to become airborne and deadly if it is merely demolished and left there."
Asbestos is not nearly as deadly as propagandized, yes if your are mice or rats living in it or miners or you worked with it for long periods you have problem .
World wide (WHO)
"It is estimated that currently about 125 million people in the world are exposed to asbestos at the workplace. According to WHO estimates, more than 90,000 people die each year from asbestos-related lung cancer, mesothelioma and asbestosis resulting from occupational exposures."
Just in the USA, deaths per year.......
Heart disease: 695,547
Cancer: 605,213
COVID-19: 416,893
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 224,935
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 162,890
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 142,342
.
..........................................Your fast food meals or frequent steak dinners are more likely to kill you . Your more likely to die crossing a street in NYC
How many of them didn’t wear proper (or any ) PPE?
That’s the main reason that people get illness from it.
The hazards were either unknown or ignored
ArcReactorKC
Well-known member
Last September, I demolished a house similar in size and condition to yours on a property I bought. Hired a demolition service to handle it. Cost me around $8,000 for 1500 square feet, which wasn't too bad considering the work involved.
For the cleanup, I rented a dumpster from Dumpster Rentals Lafayette. They operate in Louisiana, in case someone might need such a service. It ended up costing me around $800 for a two-week rental.
Sure, I understand the appeal of saving money by tackling it yourself, but the amount of work and potential risks involved in dealing with asbestos should not be underestimated. My advice would be to seriously consider hiring professionals for the demolition.
For the cleanup, I rented a dumpster from Dumpster Rentals Lafayette. They operate in Louisiana, in case someone might need such a service. It ended up costing me around $800 for a two-week rental.
Sure, I understand the appeal of saving money by tackling it yourself, but the amount of work and potential risks involved in dealing with asbestos should not be underestimated. My advice would be to seriously consider hiring professionals for the demolition.
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jmarkwolf
Well-known member
If this place you want to demo is adjacent to your business, can't you call it expansion of your business and write off the commercial demo as a tax deduction?