bonding NOT grounding question

[dragginbalz]

Good morning,

I received a permit for moving my electrical main and service entrance, but there is one thing that I can't seem to find a straight answer on. Most forum responses seem to get grounding to a water pipe and bonding to a water pipe confused and it is hard to get an answer. I am going to word it as simple as I can and appreciate any answers.

Situation: I have a new 200a main panel on the attached garage, overhead service. It has four wires (3ea # 3 CU for the hot and neutral and 1ea #4 CU for ground) feeding the old 100A main (now a sub) in the house. The neutral bus has been unbonded in the 100A panel. There are two ground electrodes at the new main panel with #4 CU. All wiring in EMT. The old ground rods are still located by the new subpanel and can be used if necessary, but are not in use currently since it is attached. I am on a private well and the copper water pipe is NOT USED as a ground in anyway (this seems to be where the responses get sideways).

Short question: Can I BOND the water and gas pipes to a subpanel instead of going back to the main?

Follow up: If the answer is "No" to the above, is it ok to splice the copper bonding wire, since it currently terminates at the old main (now sub) and then feed it back to the new main, about 30' away?


I know the main ground wire cannot be spliced unless it is a non-reversible splice, but it is not a ground wire I am asking about, but a bonding wire. Again, this seems to derail the responses.

I did find this answer : https://www.mikeholt.com/videodisplaynew.php?pageid=4328
"(3) Building or Structure Supplied by a Feeder. The metal water piping system of a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder must be bonded to:

The equipment grounding terminal of the building disconnect enclosure,
The feeder equipment grounding (bonding) conductor, or
One of the electrodes of the grounding electrode system.

The bonding jumper for the metal water piping system must be sized to the feeder circuit conductors that supply the building or structure in accordance with Table 250.66. The bonding jumper is not required to be larger than the ungrounded feeder conductors. "

and that says it can be BONDED to the subpanel (if I am reading it correctly) as the "building's disconnect enclosure" = subpanel?

I really appreciate any responses.

Thank you!

 

[sberry]

Is the water pipe copper and leaving the building?

 

[dragginbalz]

Is the water pipe copper and leaving the building?

The line from the well is a plastic that feeds the house into the pressure tank, then converts to copper from the tank, throughout the house.

There are two silcocks on the side of the house if that counts as leaving the building, but nothing else (no separate structures, nothing underground, etc)

Thanks!

 

[Infinia]

Short question: Can I BOND the water and gas pipes to a subpanel instead of going back to the main?

Follow up: If the answer is "No" to the above, is it ok to splice the copper bonding wire, since it currently terminates at the old main (now sub) and then feed it back to the new main, about 30' away?

No and No
one ground bond at the Main panel & never to a gas line!

why rely on the internet "experts"! Its worth hiring a qualified electrician that knows your citys or local regulations. For 1 or 2 hrs He can advise on your plans. You can feel out which one can work with you initially by phone. Id really consider hiring him to be at the permits final inspection too, that way he can steer (resolve) any inspector questions.

 

[sberry]

Actually the internet experts may be better than a local guy, you often get 1 opinion and its not always so great as we see often here. There will be a dozen people qualified to answer look at this post and if one makes a mistake, if its not clear or misunderstood it will be corrected. The advice on this forum is VERY VERY good. We got some real masters here, we piss and moan and may disagree on a few statistical stuff represented as facts but there is no sloppy code advice here.
The rods need to go to the main, doubt the rest of it makes much difference and the gas line is sposed to be bonded also, any metal piping, enclosures, heat duct, heating equipment, metal boxes of any kind that has a potential to become energized. it really needs a wire big enough to return a fault from the largest circuit in the panels.

 

[dragginbalz]

I agree with Sberry...I had no intention of even doing any of this myself. I am pretty capable and research everything like crazy, but after getting blown off by numerous electricians I contacted (like 8) I really didn't have much of a choice.

I would much rather have ten answers and opinions than the only guy that happens to call me back or give me a quote.

Even if I was to hire an electrician to do it, wouldn't I best to be informed on my own? Since this topic seems to be misinterpreted ALOT (based on electricians only forums, general internet searches, etc) how can I even trust one licensed electrician? I don't like blindly trusting the opinion of just one person that I just met, maybe it's the skeptic in me.

That being said, If I can get one to come out, I do plan to possibly have one inspect the work, BUT I already got approved for all the permits with my plans and contacted the utilities.

 

[Infinia]

but after getting blown off by numerous electricians I contacted (like 8)

hmmm interesting fact
I wonder what the conversation was like or what turns them off, How much is the entire job ?

I would much rather have ten answers and opinions than the only guy that happens to call me back or give me a quote.

oK good luck
there is only one opinion that matters, that guy that signs off the permit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No and No
one ground bond at the Main panel & never to a gas line!

why rely on the internet "experts"! Its worth hiring a qualified electrician that knows your citys or local regulations. For 1 or 2 hrs He can advise on your plans. You can feel out which one can work with you initially by phone. Id really consider hiring him to be at the permits final inspection too, that way he can steer (resolve) any inspector questions.

Where did u read this?

Gas pipes should be bonded to prevent being energized. 250.104(b) requires it

Gas line bonding is often done at the water heater. Solid #6 ran between hot cold and gas lines.

The gas line however should NOT be used as an electrode.

I would drive in 2 new rods at the main sevice panel and then bond gas and water.

Water line is to be bonded within the first 5' of where it enters the structure.

 

[dragginbalz]

"Hi I need to move my service entrance due to an addition being too close to the existing lines. Please let meet know if you are interested in quoting."

Too demanding?

To be fair I did get two quotes, both wanted to do different things. I didn't like either of their options.

I get the vibe that you feel it is probably my fault I can't hire someone? I've seen this pop up in other electrician related threads.
How much? Pricing was not even discussed as most didn't call back even.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Infinia]

^ see the thing about internet forum experts is there can be only one per forum and any others opinion is interpreted as a challenge to them. They will even argue about the color of the sky.
pro contractor forums often joke about this one

 

[sberry]

Of course they like to joke about it. I will even argue with Wylie but I got great respect for him. They are usually very technical points and not likely to greatly effect safety and here is one regarding the 5 foot rule. I believe it may apply when using the pipe as electrode and the same for the requirement for jumper if it's not for electrode. As I recall as for the bond the requirement is for the largest circuit likely to energize it, could change with the sub as it may have larger conductors running in the house.
While that may seem argumentative it's actually not so much but fosters debate as to why and often promotes understanding. Aceman was 1 cornered me on another forum about a couple code changes I hadn't bothered to keep up with and this is how I learn and keep somewhat current.
I have read most of the book and studied some of it as it pertains to the work I do. My book is 2002 I believe and most changes are really rather minor, some of the fundamentals have not changed much since they come up with it 100 yrs ago.
This forum has a dozen legit masters and some part timers that are as good. This forum is big enough that there isn't a final authority and while out there the ahj does have the final way we see plenty of examples from places the inspectors don't seem to be particularly well trained. Michigan has some knobs too but mostly due to personality but not cause they don't know.
Last one I did I had chance to meet him and he was a pro 100 percent and no ********.

 

[Infinia]

Where did u read this?

Gas pipes should be bonded to prevent being energized. 250.104(b) requires it

Gas line bonding is often done at the water heater. Solid #6 ran between hot cold and gas lines.

The gas line however should NOT be used as an electrode.

I would drive in 2 new rods at the main sevice panel and then bond gas and water.

Water line is to be bonded within the first 5' of where it enters the structure.

NOT using a gas line for a main panel ground and bonding a gas line are two different things, please don't confuse things. His inspector wont 'disprove' the existing gas lines if you don't have the OP connecting stuff to it! BTW the sky here really is blue.

 

[sberry]

I would put the know-how here right up with snooty "professional" forums, better than most and if a diy is sincere here, willing to listen and more trainable than a cat can get world class help for free. We get ametures here pass good inspections from this. I know a couple real world guys had license for 20 years and still can't pass a simple 100A service install without a couple tries.
I been around a while, been on forums, my opinion this is as good as it gets even from people I don't always agree over every issue on.

 

[sberry]

The op wasn't grounding to it, he is bonding it. It's not to be used as a ground. Other grounded equipment connected to it is sposed to be grounded with the circuit conductors.

 

[Infinia]

AFAIK there can be only one ground per panel and least one or more bonding's to it ( at the panel). so if he is moving and adding panels he will also be adding / moving the ground esp if the OP accepts the so called 5 ft rule*.
*Be sure to check local regs 1st, they don't always use the latest n greatest code. This is another why I suggest hiring a local pro. can save lots of dollars and/or grief.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

NOT using a gas line for a main panel ground and bonding a gas line are two different things, please don't confuse things. His inspector wont 'disprove' the existing gas lines if you don't have the OP connecting stuff to it! BTW the sky here really is blue.

You are the one confusing things.

First of all its called an electrode NOT a ground(which is more correctly called an EGC- equipment grounding conductor).

People often confuse EGCs/grounds, electrodes, as well as bonding.

Here is a good article that explakns the differences between EGCs and electrodes:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/articles/the-confusion-of-the-term-grounding/

I NEVER said to use the gas line as an electrode.

But the gas line DOES need to be bonded to prevent it from becoming energized. Code says it needs to tie into the GES and this can be accomplished by many ways one of which being the bonded neutral bar in the main service panel. One of the other ways being as i previously mentioned at the water heater.

AFAIK there can be only one ground per panel and least one or more bonding's to it ( at the panel). so if he is moving and adding panels he will also be adding / moving the ground esp if the OP accepts the so called 5 ft rule*.
*Be sure to check local regs 1st, they don't always use the latest n greatest code. This is another why I suggest hiring a local pro. can save lots of dollars and/or grief.

If by ground u mean electrode, then that is false as well.

Nothing in code says u cant have more than one electrode.

Code does say that if there is a UFER then no other supplemental electrode is required.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Of course they like to joke about it. I will even argue with Wylie but I got great respect for him. They are usually very technical points and not likely to greatly effect safety and here is one regarding the 5 foot rule. I believe it may apply when using the pipe as electrode and the same for the requirement for jumper if it's not for electrode. As I recall as for the bond the requirement is for the largest circuit likely to energize it, could change with the sub as it may have larger conductors running in the house.
While that may seem argumentative it's actually not so much but fosters debate as to why and often promotes understanding. Aceman was 1 cornered me on another forum about a couple code changes I hadn't bothered to keep up with and this is how I learn and keep somewhat current.
I have read most of the book and studied some of it as it pertains to the work I do. My book is 2002 I believe and most changes are really rather minor, some of the fundamentals have not changed much since they come up with it 100 yrs ago.
This forum has a dozen legit masters and some part timers that are as good. This forum is big enough that there isn't a final authority and while out there the ahj does have the final way we see plenty of examples from places the inspectors don't seem to be particularly well trained. Michigan has some knobs too but mostly due to personality but not cause they don't know.
Last one I did I had chance to meet him and he was a pro 100 percent and no ********.

Hey i dont mind arguing or debating. I dont know everything about the trade but i do my best. U know a lot as well and sometimes i may be wrong. This is good for me as I prepare for my c-10 exam...

Wire size for electrodes is dictated by a table.

For rods largest GEC required is #6.

For water line largest GEC required is #4.

 

[sberry]

Right. GECis required to be sized different than the bond as I recall but,,, that is recollection. I believe for bond it is the largest circuit likely to be energized and inspector didn't blink at 10 to gas on my last job and he was a pro. The other exception is to a steel building frame, like a modular etc,, 8 for 100 and 6 for 200.

 

[Infinia]

You are the one confusing things.


please re-read what I said ...Its one ground called earth ground, I tend not to use misuse the word 'ground' the branch green wires I call SE safety earth.

see they how they twist and turn.

 

[sberry]

What is a safety earth? A branch goes to neutral service main.

 

[Infinia]

What is a safety earth?

that's the safety return for fault currents on each branch. aka the 3rd wire its either green or bare. These are all 'bonded' together properly at the panel (use a modern panel with national safety approvals and you don't have to think about it too much)

 

[Alchymist]

that's the safety return for fault currents on each branch. aka the 3rd wire its either green or bare. These are all 'bonded' together properly at the panel (use a modern panel with national safety approvals and you don't have to think about it too much)

Ah, you mean the EGC - equipment grounding conductor.

https://jadelearning.com/jadecc/courses/UNIVERSAL/NEC05.php?imDif=623

 

[Infinia]

Ah, you mean the EGC - equipment grounding conductor.

https://jadelearning.com/jadecc/courses/UNIVERSAL/NEC05.php?imDif=623

I reckon it depends what end of the stick yer looking from. I'm usually at the customer equipment end / Underwriters Laboratories uknow the guys that deal with safety (where the rubber meets the road.)

 

[Alchymist]

I reckon it depends what end of the stick yer looking from. I'm usually at the customer equipment end / Underwriters Laboratories uknow the guys that deal with safety (where the rubber meets the road.)

I guess; in residential and industrial its EGC, around here anyway.

 

[Infinia]

I guess; in residential and industrial its EGC, around here anyway.

SE definition never changes, NEC cant make up their minds

 

[sberry]

The point we were trying to make was while they are bonded together it's point is not to go to earth.

 

[Infinia]

The point we were trying to make was while they are bonded together it's point is not to go to earth.

no go to earth ground at the main panel, really? the expert here is already tlking 2 buried rods not more than 5 ft it?

 

[sberry]

No one said it didn't get hooked to earth, the point is that it is sposed to get hooked to neutral service main, the earth is NOT a fault return path.

 

[Infinia]

The point we were trying to make was while they are bonded together it's point is not to go to earth.

No one said it didn't get hooked to earth, the point is that it is sposed to get hooked to neutral service main, the earth is NOT a fault return path.

sorry I don't know who 'we' ,'they' or it, is in reference to.
care to buy a noun or two.

NM I'll leave the OP in your,( their) hands. have fun!

 

[sberry]

I assume you are wiring correctly but more than one guy here is trying to point out that its highly likely you do not fully understant the purpose or how it works. Maybe we misinterpret it but consider is more than one person pointing this out.

 

[dragginbalz]

First - I really appreciate all of the input, even though I didn't intend it to, it seemed to have derailed just a tad.

I'll hopefully complete the rough by the week after next.

For the record, I am in the process of collecting information and I am taking what I can get. As you mentioned (Infinia) it is really up to what the inspector wants and ultimately, that is going to dictate the final outcome, right or wrong. I do actually appreciate the initial comments on trying to find and electrician to inspect the work and be here for the inspection, that was actually solid advice.

I am not an electrician I don't claim to be. I like learning things and the best way that I know how to do that, is by taking bits of information from multiple sources. Not just one person, one book, etc. I appreciate all the time everyone took to respond. I am able to learn and take bits from EVERYONE that contributed and for that I thank you.

I hope maybe one day I can help some of you with some advice that I have gained through my profession.

 

[sberry]

What profession?

 

[Infinia]

What profession?

I'll take a guess
Engineer or Accountant aka straight shooters
Lawyers, RE agents , & contractors hate em

 

[dragginbalz]

Hey now...the last two contractors I worked with actually commented on how easy going and accommodating I am ...for the last 16 years I've been in welding and auto refinish distribution.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Infinia]

welding and auto refinish distribution.

I'm sure you will have valuable advise concerning those interesting subjects. I'd be listening anyway.

 

[Drill Sergeant Arc]

Good morning,

I received a permit for moving my electrical main and service entrance, but there is one thing that I can't seem to find a straight answer on. Most forum responses seem to get grounding to a water pipe and bonding to a water pipe confused and it is hard to get an answer. I am going to word it as simple as I can and appreciate any answers.

Situation: I have a new 200a main panel on the attached garage, overhead service. It has four wires (3ea # 3 CU for the hot and neutral and 1ea #4 CU for ground) feeding the old 100A main (now a sub) in the house. The neutral bus has been unbonded in the 100A panel. There are two ground electrodes at the new main panel with #4 CU. All wiring in EMT. The old ground rods are still located by the new subpanel and can be used if necessary, but are not in use currently since it is attached. I am on a private well and the copper water pipe is NOT USED as a ground in anyway (this seems to be where the responses get sideways).

Short question: Can I BOND the water and gas pipes to a subpanel instead of going back to the main?

Follow up: If the answer is "No" to the above, is it ok to splice the copper bonding wire, since it currently terminates at the old main (now sub) and then feed it back to the new main, about 30' away?


I know the main ground wire cannot be spliced unless it is a non-reversible splice, but it is not a ground wire I am asking about, but a bonding wire. Again, this seems to derail the responses.

I did find this answer : https://www.mikeholt.com/videodisplaynew.php?pageid=4328
"(3) Building or Structure Supplied by a Feeder. The metal water piping system of a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder must be bonded to:

The equipment grounding terminal of the building disconnect enclosure,
The feeder equipment grounding (bonding) conductor, or
One of the electrodes of the grounding electrode system.

The bonding jumper for the metal water piping system must be sized to the feeder circuit conductors that supply the building or structure in accordance with Table 250.66. The bonding jumper is not required to be larger than the ungrounded feeder conductors. "

and that says it can be BONDED to the subpanel (if I am reading it correctly) as the "building's disconnect enclosure" = subpanel?

I really appreciate any responses.

Thank you!

As I understand that portion of the code; yes you are correct. They simply want to have the metal water piping system connected to a bonding system that ultimately is connected to:

"The equipment grounding terminal of the building disconnect enclosure,"
"The feeder equipment grounding (bonding) conductor, or
One of the electrodes of the grounding electrode system."

And meets the minimum required size as in accordance with Table 250.66.

IOW, if your bonding system wire (equipment bonding conductor) between your main panel and your sub-panel for some reason didn't meet the minimum requirement of being "sized to the feeder circuit conductors that supply the building or structure in accordance with Table 250.66." (or it didn't have one at all) then you would either; 1: run your properly sized water pipe bonding wire all the way to the new MAIN panel to be terminated as described above, or 2: correct the deficiently sized (or missing) bonding between the main and sub-panel so you could then bond your water pipe bonding jumper to it in the sub-panel.

In assuming your bonding system between the two panels is already present and sized correctly you can instead bond to the system at the sub.

And this opinion of course should only be taken with the knowledgeable considerations and advice of the other members. Happy to be corrected.

 

[Orionrising]

this is an interesting question for rural folks. My well pump is grounded, which I assume grounds the housing not just the motor, but it is more then 5' into the house. Other then the faucets, and one connector, there is no metal in the plumbing, it is all CPVC or PE....

 

[checkthisout]

The idea is to pop the circuit breaker should the water, gas or whatever line become energized.

Your water/gas lines coming into the structure served by the sub-panel should be ELECTRICALLY CONNECTED TO the sub-panel enclosure I.E. the equipment ground.

They should NOT be electrically connected to neutral in the sub-panel.

 

[sberry]

That is a point well made.

 

[sberry]

this is an interesting question for rural folks. My well pump is grounded, which I assume grounds the housing not just the motor, but it is more then 5' into the house. Other then the faucets, and one connector, there is no metal in the plumbing, it is all CPVC or PE....

Yes, this could be worked on but it's 6 and need to go this morning. We might get back to it. In your case is the well casing steel? I should really fix a detail on my own but I forget it.