HUSTLESTUFF
Well-known member
I would just start talking with the lift manufacturer and see what other options there are. Here's my best idea. Charge him for 200 sqft and make him buy both lifts
Builder built garage too short. What penalty?
- Thread starter vlocci
- Start date
The architectural drawings are pretty clear. If there was an issue why was it not red flagged? How come they didn't realize they were a foot short till it was too late? What were they measuring? If the general hired all the sub trades that's his problem. Even if he didn't he should have caught the problem before it was too late.
For compensation if you're OK with having it a foot short have him pick up the tab for dealing with your hoist problem and every other problem that will occur from it being off. If there's less amount of material used somewhere make sure you're being discounted for that time and material. If there's going to be a problem inspection wise because it doesn't match design have them deal with it and any costs to correct it. From the sound of it it's his f%*k up so you shouldn't be out any money over it.
For compensation if you're OK with having it a foot short have him pick up the tab for dealing with your hoist problem and every other problem that will occur from it being off. If there's less amount of material used somewhere make sure you're being discounted for that time and material. If there's going to be a problem inspection wise because it doesn't match design have them deal with it and any costs to correct it. From the sound of it it's his f%*k up so you shouldn't be out any money over it.
OP -- feel your pain. Nothing as disapointing when building ... you go thougth a lot of work and $$ to do somthng special and some dumb screw up puts you in the very place you worked to avoid.
It's not your job to discover mistakes .... but, I know from many projects how often I have discovered them. You can't watch everythng ..... one would think an odd height wall would not go unoticed by a crew constructing it. Now what do you do ...?
Getting some professional insight was wise. Sometimes we need to hear from someone more schooled what we already know ... going legal ends relationships for sure and if the relationship is already broken trying to recover is difficult and stressfull -- especially when builing a house you want done so you can get on with your life.
Do have one question. If the foundation was correct and the wall built a foot low -- what does that missing foot do to the rest of the project?
I'm sure you have contacted the lift builder to see if anythng can be salvaged ...... What "gives" has the builder offered? I have had to fire a couple of builders/ contractors in my 30+ years of projects .... only onetime where I simply had no choice. My sanity was at stake. He was the "best" builder in the area .. everyone told me how lucky I was to have him. Guy was a disaster ... so many mistakes that I and the architect tried to work though. Try getting a project finished when you fire a builder with a good reputation. Now you have another problem just finding someone (took me over two years) --- and they are not going to do it for the same money. So --- more costs and more stress. You end up feeling like an idiot .. and then the "why me".
I woudl like to tell you that it will all be fine and you will never miss that foot ... but -- you will. It's like love lost -- the fool who said better to have loved and lost .... never loved and lost. Sometimes cool stuff can come out of mistakes .... not three cars vertical maybe. It looks like a cool house and sometimes we do need to sit back and be thankful.
It's not your job to discover mistakes .... but, I know from many projects how often I have discovered them. You can't watch everythng ..... one would think an odd height wall would not go unoticed by a crew constructing it. Now what do you do ...?
Getting some professional insight was wise. Sometimes we need to hear from someone more schooled what we already know ... going legal ends relationships for sure and if the relationship is already broken trying to recover is difficult and stressfull -- especially when builing a house you want done so you can get on with your life.
Do have one question. If the foundation was correct and the wall built a foot low -- what does that missing foot do to the rest of the project?
I'm sure you have contacted the lift builder to see if anythng can be salvaged ...... What "gives" has the builder offered? I have had to fire a couple of builders/ contractors in my 30+ years of projects .... only onetime where I simply had no choice. My sanity was at stake. He was the "best" builder in the area .. everyone told me how lucky I was to have him. Guy was a disaster ... so many mistakes that I and the architect tried to work though. Try getting a project finished when you fire a builder with a good reputation. Now you have another problem just finding someone (took me over two years) --- and they are not going to do it for the same money. So --- more costs and more stress. You end up feeling like an idiot .. and then the "why me".
I woudl like to tell you that it will all be fine and you will never miss that foot ... but -- you will. It's like love lost -- the fool who said better to have loved and lost .... never loved and lost. Sometimes cool stuff can come out of mistakes .... not three cars vertical maybe. It looks like a cool house and sometimes we do need to sit back and be thankful.
quickfarms
Well-known member
Can you please post a copy of the topographic survey that was done before the design.
if you don’t want to post it please PM me and I will give you my email address
if you don’t want to post it please PM me and I will give you my email address
landrover bodger
Well-known member
if it was here UK the answer would be put i right or no payment . i would not pay a penny if its not built right .
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kelpaso1
MEMBER EMERITUS
Wow another incompetent contractor story we read almost weekly here. How do these guys stay in business? This is a major screw up, and I wouldn't count on HIS insurance to cover because he probably doesn't have the proper insurance. Are contractors so incompetent everywhere now a days?
Still only seeing a very small but of the picture....
Op showed us the architect sketch, missing many dimensions. Where is the engineering plan? Grade plan and survey?
Could be made correct to 1 "plan" but not what the OP was sold on.
Guys, I've met with a very capable second surveyor along with an equally capable builder (who has no interest in fixing this mess and is booked out 2.5 years). I trust hours opinion as he has little to gain.
The surveyor confirmed original topos were accurate enough given the site has changed due to excavation. Critical dimensions like height of existing home and street level are correct on them. These are the critical dimensions for ceiling height. Getting a 13 foot interior height was doable. Poured foundation floor, and by extension the footing etc, are accurate within a few inches.
Finished height of the top of foundation and by extension the top of the concrete roof is short the foot needed. Same holds true for the foundation of the connecting room on the house. The framers made up for this in framing to get floor heights where they needed to be. It looks as someone simply didn't pay attention to the take measure or possibly viewed the 13 foot interior finished height as the total exterior finished height. Screw up was not mine.
Adding a foot too the garage is not readily doable without impacting the rest of the project. New sounding board contractor questioned if it was doable at all now that foundation is backfilled and the rebar runs up the walls and into the roof structure to keep the walls from collapsing inward.
Demoing 80-100 yards of concrete and starting over is not going to happen both because of the time sink and second because I'll bankrupt my builder in the process.
So now I'm into sitting down with the builder and seeking a way to settle. This will be horse trading of some sort I expect ultimately netting him no profit on this job or a tolerable loss.
I additionally and interviewing my own site super/construction manager/ whatever you call them to effectively act on my behalf to vet every action of the builder. I'm on the search for the most incredibly **** type who can call BS on quality shortcuts or other screwups early in the process. I will pay for this person myself such that they are my agent and ultimately seek reimbursement somewhere else. Lunch today with a retired rock star builder who handed the companyto his kids. I expect he would likely welcome the chance to get back on site.
Much of this had been communicated to my current builder who is receptive. His rep means something to him and he knows he screwed up.
Putting a price on the ask remains, which was the nature of my original question. I'm back to build this project with no O&M and net zero profit as the only easily measured metric.
The surveyor confirmed original topos were accurate enough given the site has changed due to excavation. Critical dimensions like height of existing home and street level are correct on them. These are the critical dimensions for ceiling height. Getting a 13 foot interior height was doable. Poured foundation floor, and by extension the footing etc, are accurate within a few inches.
Finished height of the top of foundation and by extension the top of the concrete roof is short the foot needed. Same holds true for the foundation of the connecting room on the house. The framers made up for this in framing to get floor heights where they needed to be. It looks as someone simply didn't pay attention to the take measure or possibly viewed the 13 foot interior finished height as the total exterior finished height. Screw up was not mine.
Adding a foot too the garage is not readily doable without impacting the rest of the project. New sounding board contractor questioned if it was doable at all now that foundation is backfilled and the rebar runs up the walls and into the roof structure to keep the walls from collapsing inward.
Demoing 80-100 yards of concrete and starting over is not going to happen both because of the time sink and second because I'll bankrupt my builder in the process.
So now I'm into sitting down with the builder and seeking a way to settle. This will be horse trading of some sort I expect ultimately netting him no profit on this job or a tolerable loss.
I additionally and interviewing my own site super/construction manager/ whatever you call them to effectively act on my behalf to vet every action of the builder. I'm on the search for the most incredibly **** type who can call BS on quality shortcuts or other screwups early in the process. I will pay for this person myself such that they are my agent and ultimately seek reimbursement somewhere else. Lunch today with a retired rock star builder who handed the companyto his kids. I expect he would likely welcome the chance to get back on site.
Much of this had been communicated to my current builder who is receptive. His rep means something to him and he knows he screwed up.
Putting a price on the ask remains, which was the nature of my original question. I'm back to build this project with no O&M and net zero profit as the only easily measured metric.
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mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
His profit isn't a measure of how this impacts you. Focusing so much on that makes it sound like you want to punish more than worry about making yourself whole. Figure out what this is worth to you and go from there. Let the builder use his profit margin as a negotiating point
Half-fast eddie
Well-known member
Quick … not picking on you, just using you post as a sample …
To everyone who keeps asking to see copies of the drawings, pictures of the construction … none of your business, stop asking. The OP has shown that he is consulting with competent and qualified people, he seems to have it under control.
ace10
Well-known member
"Construction advocate"
Then maybe they can tell him how much money this mistake is worth.
Half-fast eddie
Well-known member
Yep, but as we have debated for 214 posts … not an easy answer. And regardless of the outcome, only one person has to be satisfied, regardless of what all us “experts” have to say.
scooby074
Well-known member
Project manager in Boston eh?
ConCretin
Well-known member
I agree. I'd start by monetizing the actual harm you've suffered. The contractor's profit isn't really relevant and might not be as much as you think. After allocating overhead and indirect costs, a contractor's profit on a job could easily be single digits. He might have to dig a little deeper to make you reasonably whole.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
He should be so lucky.Project manager in Boston eh?
What I would give to work on a project with him and Norm.
Bopbop
Well-known member
I have read this a couple of times. I work in the design and construction field as an engineer (mechanical). The architect generally will hire his subs, being the structural, civil, mechanical, electrical, etc design team. They work for the architect and the architect works for the owner.
The issue besides the building being to low, not the 13 foot as shown to the ceiling on the architectural detail is that in post 19 the OP said that his architect wanted him to settle with the builder. The architect works for the owner, not the builder unless it is a design build project. Then the architect works for the builder and the builder holds the contract. Why is the architect asking the owner to accept it as is?
Did the OP have the architect hired as part of the design to do construction admin (CA)? That is to verify the work installed and if it complied to the contract documents, that is the plans, specifications and construction contract. If the architect was doing CA work then he should have been checking to make sure everything was correct. Was the an error in the plans between the structural drawings and the architectural drawing showing different elevation heights? If so the architect can be the one that is at fault.
There are so many issues that could have caused this problem but at this time the OP has decided to move forward. If it was me and i have seen similar type of issues in the past I would have the GC buy the lift that is no longer any good. I would have a new system designed and selected and if it cost more then the GC can pick up that cost. That would include any design issues / cost for the new lift. The GC would also pay the OP for the construction manager that he is hiring, the lawyer and the engineers who have reviewed the project. Also he would then pay the original architectural team to revise the plans so that there is no issues in permitting and inspections. I have seen inspections shut a project down for changes in the field that was not approved by the design team. Then I would get a good settlement for the screw up in construction.
The GC knows he screwed up and he wants to make it right. The GC appears not to want this to get out that they screwed up. It would cost him more in lost work.
Good luck in your settlement and I hope you get the project finish and can be happy with it down the road.
The issue besides the building being to low, not the 13 foot as shown to the ceiling on the architectural detail is that in post 19 the OP said that his architect wanted him to settle with the builder. The architect works for the owner, not the builder unless it is a design build project. Then the architect works for the builder and the builder holds the contract. Why is the architect asking the owner to accept it as is?
Did the OP have the architect hired as part of the design to do construction admin (CA)? That is to verify the work installed and if it complied to the contract documents, that is the plans, specifications and construction contract. If the architect was doing CA work then he should have been checking to make sure everything was correct. Was the an error in the plans between the structural drawings and the architectural drawing showing different elevation heights? If so the architect can be the one that is at fault.
There are so many issues that could have caused this problem but at this time the OP has decided to move forward. If it was me and i have seen similar type of issues in the past I would have the GC buy the lift that is no longer any good. I would have a new system designed and selected and if it cost more then the GC can pick up that cost. That would include any design issues / cost for the new lift. The GC would also pay the OP for the construction manager that he is hiring, the lawyer and the engineers who have reviewed the project. Also he would then pay the original architectural team to revise the plans so that there is no issues in permitting and inspections. I have seen inspections shut a project down for changes in the field that was not approved by the design team. Then I would get a good settlement for the screw up in construction.
The GC knows he screwed up and he wants to make it right. The GC appears not to want this to get out that they screwed up. It would cost him more in lost work.
Good luck in your settlement and I hope you get the project finish and can be happy with it down the road.
Half-fast eddie
Well-known member
Good points. If the AoR was responsible for CA then he could be on the hook for damages too.
AP514
Well-known member
I DO NOT GET IT ! ! was the builder not bonded ? Sue his AZZ and take the bond money to fix his F-UP ! !!
Half-fast eddie
Well-known member
How often does a residential gc pull a performance bond on a garage build?
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
billconner
Well-known member
I think bonds are pretty rare on residential construction. I've only seen them on major public building, though I'm sure there are exceptions.
Very often with a home build the Architect is not the project manager. You hire a good builder and you pay the architect for progress meetings .. having the architect take full control can be very expensive and does not guarantee this can not occur.
I have been in situations where the Architect was part of the selection process of the GC ..... the GC then hires the subs.
The GC screwed this up
cgall
Well-known member
I've seen several people on this thread suggest contacting the lift manufacturer to see what they could do. At this point I think that is the best compromise. A lawsuit could take years, and a judgement in your favor may never be paid. I designed custom equipment for many years, and we would often find that the equipment wouldn't fit into the plant due to failure on the part of our project manager or field engineer to verify measurements. The plant engineer would send us a 15 year old Autocad drawing of the plant for us to do our layouts. If allowed, I would travel to the site to verify, but most of the time my company would not approve the expense. But they were quick to ask me to drop everything and go to the site to supervise disassembly and reassembly of machinery in order to move it through the plant.
A lift is a simple machine, if it's already built have them look at modifying it to fit the 12' space. I'm sure the GC would be willing to pay the cost rather than tearing out the roof or going to court.
A lift is a simple machine, if it's already built have them look at modifying it to fit the 12' space. I'm sure the GC would be willing to pay the cost rather than tearing out the roof or going to court.
Half-fast eddie
Well-known member
True. But AP514 was saying to exercise the bond ... sounds good on paper (or the internet) but in reality it probably doesn’t exist.
The Bean
Well-known member
There's never enough time to do it right; always enough time to do it over.
That's something I learned at my first job in a big architecture/engineering firm. It still applies today and should be a warning to all project managers. As an architect myself, I find the story of this garage build to be a cautionary one. We as Architects must be careful of exposing ourselves or our company to liability in the field and rely on the contract documents (drawings and specs) and the contract agreement which outlines our role and responsibility as well as the role and responsibility of the owner, general contractor (together with his/her subs), consultants, vendors, suppliers, et al. We are taught by the long history of litigation in the building field to stay away from the job site unless and only when the contract calls for it. Scheduled job meetings are OK, but better in the trailer than in the building. Site visits for “observation", never for “inspection" of the work. The American Institute of Architects has strict language on this matter in their model contracts. We do get blamed for a lot and we redirect a lot of blame to the contractor also (like when they use their tape measure to scale the drawings rather than read the dimensions. But I digress). The relationship is like cats and dogs. Circling back, I find that too many contractors start the work without reading and understanding the drawings and specs, not all, but enough to taint the pool. Some Architects are at fault for not detailing enough. The ambiguities and gaps always leave enough room for lizards and snakes to squeeze in.
That's something I learned at my first job in a big architecture/engineering firm. It still applies today and should be a warning to all project managers. As an architect myself, I find the story of this garage build to be a cautionary one. We as Architects must be careful of exposing ourselves or our company to liability in the field and rely on the contract documents (drawings and specs) and the contract agreement which outlines our role and responsibility as well as the role and responsibility of the owner, general contractor (together with his/her subs), consultants, vendors, suppliers, et al. We are taught by the long history of litigation in the building field to stay away from the job site unless and only when the contract calls for it. Scheduled job meetings are OK, but better in the trailer than in the building. Site visits for “observation", never for “inspection" of the work. The American Institute of Architects has strict language on this matter in their model contracts. We do get blamed for a lot and we redirect a lot of blame to the contractor also (like when they use their tape measure to scale the drawings rather than read the dimensions. But I digress). The relationship is like cats and dogs. Circling back, I find that too many contractors start the work without reading and understanding the drawings and specs, not all, but enough to taint the pool. Some Architects are at fault for not detailing enough. The ambiguities and gaps always leave enough room for lizards and snakes to squeeze in.
dave*99
Well-known member
That’s a good sentiment but I suspect the issue is the height of the 3 911s he wants to stack. And taking 4” off each of them is not an option. Maybe a cabriolet?
dcg9381
Well-known member
You're a very practical guy!
AP514
Well-known member
Well, Hire an unbonded contractor then that is on you.....Now all the contractor has to do is.....walk away and your stuck.
SUE.. ABC-Contractor sure. He clams bankruptcy....and now your Stuck. The next day he goes down to the court house opens a NEW DBA or what ever and his NEW Contracting Co is (ABCD)...This happens all the time in several States.
Hell, I Fired several Subs because they Cancelled the Bond after they started to work for me.
I had it in contract they carry bond until I signed off on work or they would be fired without pay)
SUE.. ABC-Contractor sure. He clams bankruptcy....and now your Stuck. The next day he goes down to the court house opens a NEW DBA or what ever and his NEW Contracting Co is (ABCD)...This happens all the time in several States.
Hell, I Fired several Subs because they Cancelled the Bond after they started to work for me.
I had it in contract they carry bond until I signed off on work or they would be fired without pay)
Ok, there will be no lifting, lowering, digging, blasting.....or shooting. It is what it is. My settlement figure is still going to be.. The amount of the lost sq. footage of 1 vehicle as a percentage of the job, the cost of the lift and $100,000 to help me sleep at night. Whoever pays TBD. And that's my final answer...seriously.
FredWanaker
Well-known member
The OP seems to have gotten a pretty good handle on it. My own take is (1) where is the defect (2) how did it happen (3) In a perfect world what would it take to fix it (4) what would be the cost to do that in time and money (4) what other remedies might there be. The OP seems to be working on all of those.
thanks for sharing the outcome. Sorry your dream fell a bit short.
mybigwarwagon
Well-known member
A good compactor operator could shorten them pretty easily. Hell, you could stack them all in the crawlspace if you wanted to.
quickfarms
Well-known member
Read the first post by the OP!
it is my business because he asked for advise and this is part of what I do professionally.
prior to any potential litigation a competent lawyer will want to throughly investigate the feasibility of the project and the construction documents to determine what went wrong.
design professionals rarely have to pay out any significant compensation on these types of claims unless there work was negligent, even grievous blunders yield very small awards.
taking a contractor to court over a garage being 1’ shorter than the plans would be a hard case to fight in court because unless the judge is a car guy he would probably not grasp the implications
taking the contractor to court because the patio is now several steps down when it was supposed to be at floor level would be an easier case
the reason this has over 200 posts is because of all the people that are talking about suing or going after a bond that probably does not exist.
the op has made it clear that he wants to get this finished and move forward
he does not want to start years of litigation and live with that
I have multiple court cases, that I am a designated expert witness on, that have gone on for more than 5 years and some have followed me from my previous company.
dave*99
Well-known member
I suspect even a bad compactor operator could accomplish that. And I will buy you a beer if the OP chooses your suggested option.
Nick Danger
Well-known member
I've never done any construction projects. How do you find out promptly when the sub has canceled the bond?
AP514
Well-known member
You get the info from Them when he shows you the bond..(usually an Insurance company). Then call them once a week to see if the policy is still good/active/not cancelled.
I have found most contractors are Sleeezballs. Just IMHO........
I have found most contractors are Sleeezballs. Just IMHO........
ConCretin
Well-known member
Bonds aren't an insurance policy and can't be cancelled. They are bought and paid for and remain in effect for the duration the project.