Buried Fuel Tank Advice

[rlitman]

I'm not sure why people keep fixating on what's in the tank?...

Because an empty tank could be empty because it either leaked out, or because it was emptied. But a full tank that's been full for some time is not leaking. The contents are not all that important, but the knowledge that it is not leaking is HUGE.

 

[bczygan]

Good.

Pump the tank yourself and fill with sand.

Done.

 

[ford33]

So you have 2 feet of something other than water in the 6 foot deep tank. Bottom 2 inches indicates water.

Pump the tank out, sell or recycle the oil and remove the tank.

My local county has a hazardous waste recycling station. They take old oil in 5 gallon pails at no charge. I wonder if an auto parts store accepts old oil in 5 gallon amounts.

 

[Sureshot]

Someone with an oil furnace will be happy to take the oil that remains. It can be filtered plenty good to burn in a furnace.

As for the crud in the bottom, I found my tank to have a huge amount also. My tank was in the basement and used for twenty years before I bought the place and converted it.

It sounds like you may be able to get it pulled and reclaimed rather easily.

 

[Randy in Maine]

Make sure you disclose all of this to the next owner of the property.

 

[yeldogt]

Because an empty tank could be empty because it either leaked out, or because it was emptied. But a full tank that's been full for some time is not leaking. The contents are not all that important, but the knowledge that it is not leaking is HUGE.

He saw water ... something was in it


You can have contents in a tank and have the tank leak ... have been leaking for a long time.

They often ooze ... it all depends on the soil. Many times the tanks were just put in the ground and if the soil has a high clay content the tanks rust and the soil holds it all together --- typically the tanks don't leak out (that's the problem). People assume all is OK -- they pump it down and when they start moving the tank any oil inside ...now does run out. Having 10 gallons on the bottom is not uncommon.

Testing a tank is problematic ... the answer is getting it out (the tank)

Oil has a shelf life ..... when my fire happened I had both tanks recently filled (550 and 330) . Oil was in the $4 range and I think I got around $1 credit -- he used a pump tanks with a sight glass.

 

[Docbentley]

Vent cap for oil tank.

1. Get a pump and **** the oil out and dispose of properly.

2. Knock neck off stand pipes and cover.

3. Forget you ever saw it.

Bill

This is your action plan.

 

[RivennHewn]

Didn’t bother reading the thread.

Did anyone bring up tank insurance?

I signed up when I bought my house(Washington state)

A few years later they came and removed my tank, and the contaminated soil.

State paid for it all, about $60K



https://plia.wa.gov/

 

[dkroth]

Gotta see how this plays out in the long run.







.

 

[TractorJeff]

Guys on Craigslist with Waste Oil Heaters in their garages will pump that tank!
My neighbor buys heating oil every Fall on Craigslist.

 

[yeldogt]

Didn’t bother reading the thread.

Did anyone bring up tank insurance?

I signed up when I bought my house(Washington state)

A few years later they came and removed my tank, and the contaminated soil.

State paid for it all, about $60K



https://plia.wa.gov/

Some states have it others don't --- a public entity has to underwrite it.

As I mentioned ... some here don't understand how serious this can become and how expensive to resolve.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

WOW. There's a LOT of bad advice in this thread coming from people who usually give very good advice...

Don't just pump it out, knock the pipes off and walk away. Don't fill it with sand (unless that's allowed locally and it's done to spec. Don't forget agbout it. The EPA will get you in the long run if somehting goes bad...

Tommy

 

[gfd_703]

Based on information that may or may not be correct gathered from this post. Would not the previous owner that sold the property to your Grandmother be responsible for clean up if they failed to disclose the tank in the sale of the property?

 

[FTG-05]

WOW. There's a LOT of bad advice in this thread coming from people who usually give very good advice...

Don't just pump it out, knock the pipes off and walk away. Don't fill it with sand (unless that's allowed locally and it's done to spec. Don't forget agbout it. The EPA will get you in the long run if somehting goes bad...

Tommy

How long does that risk last? My house in Seattle had an oil tank in the back yard. I had it tested by whoever delivered oil at the time (early 80's) and it tested fine. I sold the house ~1994; am I still at risk all these years later?

 

[mike93lx]

How long does that risk last? My house in Seattle had an oil tank in the back yard. I had it tested by whoever delivered oil at the time (early 80's) and it tested fine. I sold the house ~1994; am I still at risk all these years later?

Legal advice should come from lawyers, with malpractice insurance

 

[RivennHewn]

Legal advice should come from lawyers, with malpractice insurance

True.

That being said, if there is a record of the testing that states the tank was taken care of to the standard as of the date it was taken care of, then the seller should be clear of any lawsuits

 

[Randy in Maine]

Disclosure to the buyer when selling the property may also be required.

 

[Blue]

i care about the land a lot, and i have a water well on the other side of the house. i don't want to do something that could lead to contamination.

i'm more than happy to call a pro, but is there a "smart" way to go about this so i don't end up in EPA hell? what if it's already leaking? lol

thanks!

Just using google and looking up "Michigan underground storage tank residential" gets a ton of links.

I think this is a start. https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-89334_42271_4115_4238-9379--,00.html

In the yellow pages of the telephone book under "Environmental and Ecological Services" are listed environmental consultants who can arrange the entire job of removing, cleaning, and disposing of the tank. The costs for such a project range widely, so the best solution is to call several consultants for estimates. By hiring an environmental consultant, the homeowner saves time and can hire an experienced consultant who does tank work routinely. Also, in the event that contamination has occurred as a result of leaking heating oil, the environmental consultant can advise the homeowner regarding the contamination.

 

[yeldogt]

How long does that risk last? My house in Seattle had an oil tank in the back yard. I had it tested by whoever delivered oil at the time (early 80's) and it tested fine. I sold the house ~1994; am I still at risk all these years later?

Depends on the discloser rules ..... NJ they go after everybody in the chain. My friend was an attorney who specialized in this.

Most people know now you don't buy a property with a tank in strict states -- my last was in 2006 (PA) .... would not do it now.

 

[Bretny]

There being fuel still in it could be a good thing. That means most likely it hasn't leaked YET. Drain all contents and remove. Once you get it tested and if it leaks in my state all that Info goes to a state agency.

You always know the bank foreclosure houses that have an inground tank. There always long empty and cheap. I have family that lives in one now. Her tank use to be under a covered porch under a concrete slab.

 

[pizza]

thank you all!

you've presented many valuable opinions, each with their own merits.

abandon-in-place vs pull the tank,
DIY vs pro,
etc.

i'd like to try to keep my options open until i feel that i understand the situation as well as possible.

to that end, i'm getting the well water tested first for organic solvent residue. if the well is contaminated, then i'll know my situation could be majorly fucked, and i'll probably talk to a lawyer.

i think the well should be ok though, so going forward in thought with that assumption...

tempting as it is (for real), i think pumping it out, knocking the pipes off, and pretending i never saw it is not going to work for my situation.

next, pull the tank or not?

the state advises:

https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-89334_42271_4115_4238-9379--,00.html

Remove the pipes and tank unless removing them would threaten the structural integrity of a nearby building. If the underground storage tank cannot be removed, it must be filled with an inert material (sand, gravel, or cement) before closing in place. Aboveground storage tanks can be left in place if the tank is safeguarded against trespassing and the filling portals locked to prevent trespassing.

i'm pretty sure the tank can be removed without threatening anything.

at this point, i'm leaning towards pulling the tank if possible regardless of diy vs pro decision. for one thing, the state says you're supposed to. also, i'm thinking that as time goes on, people and regulations are just going to be more and more picky about these things, and having an abandoned tank in the ground -- especially so close (60 ft) to a well -- is just going to raise questions down the line whenever this place is eventually sold. i think i'll be doing someone (possibly someone i care about) a favor by just getting it out of the ground now.

as for DIY vs pro, i'm still mulling it over.

if it only costs a few grand for a pro to do it, i'd happily pay it. or heck, for minor to moderate contamination remediation, i'd probably even pay up to 10k. but unfortunately, the costs seem totally unpredictable due to not knowing if (or how much) the tank leaked. many tens of thousands of dollars would be a problem, let alone hundreds of thousands.

also, after pumping the tank dry, pros are then supposed to clean the tank out before removing it.
i get it. you're preventing additional contamination from residual fuel because the tank could have leaks in it, or it could get damaged or come apart while removing it.
but from a DIY perspective, that's a step i'm not clear on.

does anyone know how the tank cleanout process is done?

do you spray in some kind of detergent water, pump it out, and repeat a couple times?

and then where would i dispose of the dirty wash water?

i'm wondering how critical this part is.

Based on information that may or may not be correct gathered from this post. Would not the previous owner that sold the property to your Grandmother be responsible for clean up if they failed to disclose the tank in the sale of the property?

hah, the same thought occurred to me. my grandma probably had nothing to do with this tank. she probably didn't even know about it.
i don't know what the local laws are here regarding disclosing or responsibility for tank cleanup costs after transferring a property.

regardless, whoever sold my grandma this property is certainly dead and gone along with any evidence of disclosure or nondisclosure.

 

[pizza]

here's a pessimistic way to interpret my water test:

despite the fill cap being missing for years or decades, there's little to no water in it. probably just an inch or two of moist sludge.

the reason? the tank is leaking faster than water is accumulating. the aqueous layer is on the bottom, so that goes first.

hopefully i'm wrong.

 

[mike93lx]

here's a pessimistic way to interpret my water test:

despite the fill cap being missing for years or decades, there's little to no water in it. probably just an inch or two of moist sludge.

the reason? the tank is leaking faster than water is accumulating. the aqueous layer is on the bottom, so that goes first.

hopefully i'm wrong.

Where would all the water be coming from?

Next time you have a rain storm, take a cup with a similar opening size and place it on the ground. Very little water will end up in it

 

[rlitman]

...the reason? the tank is leaking faster than water is accumulating. the aqueous layer is on the bottom, so that goes first.

hopefully i'm wrong.

It's not that. Tanks leak mostly in two places. Either at the bottom, or at the top where bungs are welded in. Leaks at the top often allow groundwater in. A leak at the bottom would certainly have removed all that oil over the years.

 

[pizza]

right on. that's reassuring logic.

 

[yeldogt]

They use what looks like a port-a potty truck for the clean out .. I don't know what the solution is. They are in and out in no time -- same with pumping the tank.

 

[Bretny]

My two family members pulled the tank with hand tools. Drain it, get some oil dry in there and clean it out. You can cut it up from the inside and not need to dig as much.

 

[Randy in Maine]

Can you say, "confined space"?

 

[rlitman]

Can you say, "confined space"?

That's one risk. Though if you cut in a large enough opening, that can be greatly mitigated. In my eyes, a bigger risk is entrapment/crushing due to cave-in/collapse.

When I filled in a tank (in my area, there was a legal process for this procedure) many years back, we excavated down to the tank, and reaching down from the ground, cut in a hole large enough to pour in wheelbarrow loads of sand which we manipulated with long shovels. Nobody ever had to get down in the tank.

Had we needed to step into the hole, I'd have probably built a cofferdam to safely hold the sides.

 

[johnnyradiant]

Filled in tanks used to be excepted here, now they want them out.

Disclosure on tanks may or may not have been an item to disclose depending on how long ago the transaction occurred. This is why in my parts we need some paperwork showing there is not a tank on the property filled, empty or in between so the new owner doesn't get a house warming gift.

The difference between a little mitigation and a lot is like a logarithmic expense. I'm not sure on how well water factors into the equation but it may even add a multiplier. I would not want to push it to the bottom of a to do list that means it sits for more years as legislation seems to always sneak into the equation as well.

 

[walrus]

It's not that. Tanks leak mostly in two places. Either at the bottom, or at the top where bungs are welded in. Leaks at the top often allow groundwater in. A leak at the bottom would certainly have removed all that oil over the years.

Depends on water table. Leaks on top are from fittings not properly tightened, rusted out piping, improper backfill that allowed settling of piping etc

 

[rlitman]

Depends on water table. Leaks on top are from fittings not properly tightened, rusted out piping, improper backfill that allowed settling of piping etc

Agreed. There’s also the effect of rainwater following the pipes down towards any cracks.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

How long does that risk last? My house in Seattle had an oil tank in the back yard. I had it tested by whoever delivered oil at the time (early 80's) and it tested fine. I sold the house ~1994; am I still at risk all these years later?

Legal advice should come from lawyers, with malpractice insurance

True.

That being said, if there is a record of the testing that states the tank was taken care of to the standard as of the date it was taken care of, then the seller should be clear of any lawsuits

Disclosure to the buyer when selling the property may also be required.

Exactly.

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

Exactly.

Tommy

In NJ they go after the string of insurance companies.

No one with active brain cells buys a property with buried tanks in NJ ... It's becoming hard to sell if abandon .... will what's going on I don't think I would

 

[bighouse01]

Mine was 4K 12 years ago. Tank had to be pulled in order to close on my house. It was in use, pressure tested, sonic tested and deemed to have a small leak. Turned out to be a seepage at a fitting. They removed 6 cubic feet of soil.

Now another house I was in contract for, the tank was in the garage, and behind it we discovered cut off lines coming thru the wall under ground level. Some poking with a rod in the dirt and hit something solid. Turned out to be a tank. We couldn’t come to an agreement so I backed out and got my deposit.

Since the tank was found, they were still on the hook to remediate in order to sell. We kept an eye on what was going on on and one evening going by we saw the remediation company had started. Well you could smell the oil from the road, the tank was in the back yard.

They dug a hole you could of put a 2 car garage in. 30k I heard.

If it were me I’d do it myself, empty it, pull it, burn it out on a bonfire and cut it up, and make it gone.

If you have nosey neighbors, build a shed over it and work in there!!!!!!

 

[yeldogt]

Mine was 4K 12 years ago. Tank had to be pulled in order to close on my house. It was in use, pressure tested, sonic tested and deemed to have a small leak. Turned out to be a seepage at a fitting. They removed 6 cubic feet of soil.

Now another house I was in contract for, the tank was in the garage, and behind it we discovered cut off lines coming thru the wall under ground level. Some poking with a rod in the dirt and hit something solid. Turned out to be a tank. We couldn’t come to an agreement so I backed out and got my deposit.

Since the tank was found, they were still on the hook to remediate in order to sell. We kept an eye on what was going on on and one evening going by we saw the remediation company had started. Well you could smell the oil from the road, the tank was in the back yard.

They dug a hole you could of put a 2 car garage in. 30k I heard.

If it were me I’d do it myself, empty it, pull it, burn it out on a bonfire and cut it up, and make it gone.

If you have nosey neighbors, build a shed over it and work in there!!!!!!

maybe just pay the 4k ..?

 

[acer66]

Might be costly but imho it is the right thing to remove a tank the proper way.

 

[Jayman17]

Didn’t bother reading the thread.

Did anyone bring up tank insurance?

I signed up when I bought my house(Washington state)

A few years later they came and removed my tank, and the contaminated soil.

State paid for it all, about $60K



https://plia.wa.gov/

Riv, I had the same insurance and they covered the replacement of my old tank as well. I want to say the insurance was maybe $10-12 dollars a year.

Jay

 

[LS6 Tommy]

In NJ they go after the string of insurance companies.

No one with active brain cells buys a property with buried tanks in NJ ... It's becoming hard to sell if abandon .... will what's going on I don't think I would

Not for willful failure to disclose. They go after the seller. The insurance often dumps the seller. I've been involved in those things more times than I care to remember.

Every house on my street had an inground tank when I bought my house. Some still do. It's no big deal to get them removed and certified if they're not leaking. I took mine out a LONG time ago, but still keep leak coverage for my above ground Roth tank. Well worth the cheap coverage in the rare event it does leak.

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

Not for willful failure to disclose. They go after the seller. The insurance often dumps the seller. I've been involved in those things more times than I care to remember.

Every house on my street had an inground tank when I bought my house. Some still do. It's no big deal to get them removed and certified if they're not leaking. I took mine out a LONG time ago, but still keep leak coverage for my above ground Roth tank. Well worth the cheap coverage in the rare event it does leak.

Tommy

When you willfully do something wrong -- it not the same as being stupid. Many on this thread are not giving good advise.

You can get tank insurance on new inside, above and inside inspected tanks ... only a public system can insure the underground. It is no big deal -- but that's doing it correctly and getting it out. There are many situations where a weak tank turned into a problem because it was not done correctly.