Ceiling speakers for shop

[crazybrit]

Well the Pyle PDIC4 arrived from Amazon just now. They will be getting returned.

One is a totally different shade of white than the other and has a bunch of blemishes in the finish. As if it didn't get the final paint coat.

Way more noticeable in person than in the picture and it's pretty noticeable in the picture.

Before I return I'll see what I think about the size and whether 6" might not be better (8" is too large for the ceiling area). I might also see if I can find an amp to connect them too.

 

[dwasifar]

Have you considered using a set of car speakers?

Those tend to be 4Ω and might get more out of your amp.

 

[Trapps]

Have you considered using a set of car speakers?

Those tend to be 4Ω and might get more out of your amp.

I went this route in my shop and it's worked out great. 10' x 22' shop with 6" component speakers and a 20 year old 2x100W car amp is way more sound than I need and almost as much as I want...

 

[crazybrit]

Have you considered using a set of car speakers?

Those tend to be 4Ω and might get more out of your amp.

Good suggestion. I'll check it out. Thank you!

 

[jetrep]

We have several of these in the house and above the patio and they work pretty well: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0032FO1ZK/?tag=atomicindus08-20 (Legrand 6.5")

I don't understand the point of screwing around with an rPi and the amp and enclosure and all that stuff when there are plenty of small class D amplifiers with power supplies on amazon

 

[crazybrit]

I don't understand the point of screwing around with an rPi and the amp and enclosure and all that stuff when there are plenty of small class D amplifiers with power supplies on amazon

Well, a class D amp with power supply on Amazon isn't going to stream audio from a NAS.

And a rPi isn't going to output audio without either a DAC hat, or a DAC+AMP hat. So I need something connected to the rPi and I figured I'd try a DAC+AMP hat.

Clear now?

 

[peterp]

Well, a class D amp with power supply on Amazon isn't going to stream audio from a NAS.

And a rPi isn't going to output audio without either a DAC hat, or a DAC+AMP hat. So I need something connected to the rPi and I figured I'd try a DAC+AMP hat.

Clear now?

I'm not sure everyone knows what the rPi DAC/AMP hat are. I wasn't aware of the AMP hat, and misunderstood/misread it to think you were using rPi+DAC into an external amp (especially since you linked to the PCB amp earlier). It would be great if you can link what DAC and AMP hat you are using.

I suspect you might be better served having the rPi DAC amp feed an external amp because then you have more flexibility for an amp that has tone controls, bluetooth, or 2.1 if you want to add a passive sub later. That external amp can be hidden -- just tune the bass/treble/volume/sub (if you add one) for best sound, leave it on all the time, and stuff it in the ceiling (control the volume with the DAC).

 

[peterp]

Regarding the rPi DAC, not trying to dissuade you at all -- in fact I'm interested to hear how it works out as I may do same.

Another option to the rPi might be Chromecast Audio (which is somewhat the equivalent of rPi+DAC). There is a caveat that Google discontinued the device (still available on eBay for about $50), but they still support it. I'm using 4 Chromecast Audios to stream Pandora and Spotify to my deck, garage, basement, and reference 2-channel system. I have NOT used it with NAS, so I can't comment on that at all. I can cast Pandora/Spotify to individual systems or create a "group" to do whole house audio (or any combination) so all of them play the same music (great for parties, probably not relevant for garage-only system).

Not sure Chromecast Audio will be good for what you want to do, but mentioning it as a possible option.

 

[crazybrit]

I'm not sure everyone knows what the rPi DAC/AMP hat are.

I totally agree. Anyone is free to ask. Vs "screwing around" comments.

 

[crazybrit]

Regarding the rPi DAC, not trying to dissuade you at all -- in fact I'm interested to hear how it works out as I may do same.

A hat is an auxillary PCB that attaches to the back of the rPI.

The advantage of the DAC+AMP hat is that it takes 18-24v and it supplies the rPI with 5V.

If you just get a DAC hat, you need to power it (and the Pi) with 5V.

You need more than 5V to power the amp, so you'll need to add a buck converter or similar to provide the 5V from 18-24V.

The nice thing about the rPI is also that it can provide additional service. It's a very small footprint PC, which can connect a keyboard and monitor. My wife's keen on being able to page me in from the house and I'm sure some service can be run on the rPI to enable that "feature"

If you just want audio there are dedicated options like: https://polyvection.com/en/product/dac32/ it'll talk to any SqueezeBox network server.

 

[dwasifar]

Here's an alternative to the Pi.

In my workshop, I have an old stereo receiver and an inexpensive Bluetooth-to-RCA adapter powered by the receiver's switched accessory AC. When I turn on the receiver, the Bluetooth comes up and pairs to my phone; I then use Emby, Subsonic, or Pandora on the phone to stream music.

If you don't want Bluetooth in the mix, a simple stereo adapter cable (dual RCA to 1/8" male stereo plug) will work just as well.

Using a phone, you won't need monitor/keyboard/mouse for the Pi, saving space. The phone has the same "additional services" advantage as the Pi. If your wife wants to page you from within the house, she can text you and the streaming audio will duck to let the notification tone through. If you get a call, it ducks the streaming audio to let your ringtone through, and you can carry on the call through the speakers.

To stream your own audio, Emby and Subsonic are both free software for local home use.

 

[crazybrit]

Here's an alternative to the Pi.

I want to try the Pi route. But I appreciate the suggestion.

 

[dwasifar]

I want to try the Pi route. But I appreciate the suggestion.

I understand the situation of having a Pi and looking for something cool to do with it. For a while, I had one operating as a caching DNS proxy.

 

[crazybrit]

I understand the situation of having a Pi and looking for something cool to do with it. For a while, I had one operating as a caching DNS proxy.

I don't actually have the PI. It's on order. The issue is I have a small shop and it's packed. I don't have the room for a standard receiver. Also I'm pondering (later) adding a 7"/10" touch-screen to control it. I want it to talk to the NAS over CAT6 also. A product in search of a solution I know

 

[PoorUB]

I stream music in my shop with an old smart phone connected to my WiFi, then with a cable to the inputs on a home stereo.

Probably doesn't help, but just thought I would add to the discussion.

 

[dwasifar]

I don't actually have the PI. It's on order. The issue is I have a small shop and it's packed. I don't have the room for a standard receiver. Also I'm pondering (later) adding a 7"/10" touch-screen to control it. I want it to talk to the NAS over CAT6 also. A product in search of a solution I know

Well, it doesn't have to be a standard receiver. It can be any small amp, like the ones suggested by other people earlier in the thread. I use a receiver just because that's what I had on hand. Some of these tiny amps are hardly any bigger than the Pi, and could be tucked into any little corner.

Regarding wanting wired CAT6 ethernet: not to be a contrarian, but I have to ask why? Streaming audio from your NAS, even uncompressed audio, doesn't need gigabit network speeds. Even if you plan to transfer files to local storage on the Pi (and again, why would you, if you have a NAS?), I/O to the SD card it uses as a hard drive is going to saturate long before you reach gigabit throughput. I can understand wanting gigabit if the Pi was going to be used as, say, a firewall. But that's not your use case.

Not meaning to be a downer here, I'm just curious.

 

[crazybrit]

Well, it doesn't have to be a standard receiver.

I understand. You said receiver. I'm aware there are lots of small amp options.

Regarding wanting wired CAT6 ethernet: not to be a contrarian, but I have to ask why?

Well, you don't "HAVE TO" (being contrary back ). I have some other requirements (not related to this) where I want CAT6. I'm aware It's not required for audio. Wifi signal strength in shop isn't that great. Yes, I know, I can add a wifi extender (1/2 bandwidth) or since I have CAT6, wire in a second access point .....

There are no shortage of options but the subject was "Ceiling speakers for shop"

 

[dwasifar]

I understand. You said receiver. I'm aware there are lots of small amp options.

Well, you don't "HAVE TO" (being contrary back ). I have some other requirements (not related to this) where I want CAT6. I'm aware It's not required for audio. Wifi signal strength in shop isn't that great. Yes, I know, I can add a wifi extender (1/2 bandwidth) or since I have CAT6, wire in a second access point .....

There are no shortage of options but the subject was "Ceiling speakers for shop"

"Feel compelled to," then.

Fair enough. Just my curiosity.

Will this be your first experience with Linux?

 

[crazybrit]

"Feel compelled to," then.

LOL.

Will this be your first experience with Linux?

I work for a Linux distro.

As far as the Ethernet, I have test equipment such as a HP 16700b in the shop that has Ethernet. I could rig up some wireless bridge to the main house but like I said, the Wifi signal strength isn't great. Maybe I'll run a second AP at some point, but one project at a time.

One of the things I've been pondering for the PI is connecting it (via a KVM switch) to the same display that the HP uses so I can browse manuals etc. I hate reading on a phone/tablet, generally I prefer printed manuals but full size PDF is an ok compramize.

I guess I could try and build Firefox for the HP but it runs a ancient version of HPUX and it's loud

Mostly I was just looking for some help with speakers. Someone via PM pointed me to the Dayton CS620C and while a bit larger than what I wanted, I think I'll give this a try.

 

[crazybrit]

So I'm at $57.98 in my Parts Express cart with the speakers. If I can get to $100 I get $15 off plus free shipping.

Since you guys are so full of ideas What do I "need" that costs $42.02 or slightly more?

The problem is I have about every electronics tool there is.

Normally when I punt and pay the shipping I remember the next day there was something else I needed. I have speaker cable and banana plug wall plate.

 

[dwasifar]

LOL.
I work for a Linux distro.

I know you're struggling to keep me on topic, but I (have to) (feel compelled to) ask, what distro? I use Mint for desktops and Debian for servers, except for one server I've got running Ubuntu just because I wanted to explore the differences.

 

[dwasifar]

Since you guys are so full of ideas What do I "need" that costs $42.02 or slightly more?

You "need" supplies. Solder, solder wick, heat shrink tubing, replacement leads and clips for your Fluke meter, and a third hand.

 

[crazybrit]

You "need" supplies. Solder, solder wick, heat shrink tubing, replacement leads and clips for your Fluke meter, and a third hand.

Dude, I have all that stuff. And more. Plus you don't need solder wick when you have a vaccum desoldering station

I'm not seeing anything else I can get from them and normally I don't struggle to find stuff. I'll probably just punt and pay the shipping.

 

[peterp]

So I'm at $57.98 in my Parts Express cart with the speakers. If I can get to $100 I get $15 off plus free shipping.

Since you guys are so full of ideas What do I "need" that costs $42.02 or slightly more?

The problem is I have about every electronics tool there is.

Normally when I punt and pay the shipping I remember the next day there was something else I needed. I have speaker cable and banana plug wall plate.

If you decide to use an external amp, rather than the rPi AMP hat, then this is a very good sounding mini-amp -> https://www.parts-express.com/Lepai...dio-Mini-Amplifier-with-Power-Supply-310-3000

The 12v/3a power supply that comes with it is pretty wimpy, so you will need to get a bigger power brick (read description to see what it supports, I think 24v). Something like this will probably work for $10 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KR392XQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20). Parts Express changed their website so it's pretty hard to search by category (like by power supply), but maybe you can find a similar power supply there (that would put you over $100 in total).

 

[crazybrit]

If you decide to use an external amp

Not a decision I'll be making any time soon.

Part of the issue is that the Pi HAT+AMP has non-existent specs even by amplifier standards.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/iqaudio-digiamp-plus/

"up to 2x35wpc" but at what load and distortion? I can't find a proper datasheet, just a "product brief" that isn't much better.

I'd been looking at this external amp (as it can use the same 24V power supply) but the specs still leave me with lots of questions.

50wpc at 6ohm. So it's 37W at 8ohm by my calc.

It's also at THD+N 10%. I thought THD+N of 3% was where distortion became noticeable for most when playing actual music vs audio test signals.

At THD+N 1% for an 8 ohm load it's just over 29W per channel.

The Dayton CS620C speakers I'm looking at are rated 25W rms/50W peak.

Whenever I look at this stuff it's a game of "am I holding an apple or an orange"?

 

[Citation]

I'll throw out an oddball external amp idea. I have one of these in my living room, Extron XPA1002
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=Extron+XPA+1002

These are frequently under $50 on ebay. The XPA amps are conference room/auditorium/automation type amps. Good quality. The sort of thing meant to be left on for ever (no power switch). Heck they are even rated for use in air return spaced in a drop ceiling.

I got mine when my old employer was redoing some auditoriums. The only headache is they use screw terminals that plug into the back. If your seller doesn't include the part you have to hunt down replacements. Also, the audio input uses those same screw terminals.

The up side is these are really nice class D amps that are stupid cheap on the second hand market. Do make sure you get the 4-8ohm version, not the 70V version. You can also find versions that are 3 or 4 channel.

It sounds like you have the front end already sorted out. Like a few others here I use an Amazon Echo (the one that is just a wall wart) to both connect to my phone and act as a streaming source. The echo is connected to a set of computer speakers in my case.

 

[peterp]

Not a decision I'll be making any time soon.

Part of the issue is that the Pi HAT+AMP has non-existent specs even by amplifier standards.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/iqaudio-digiamp-plus/

"up to 2x35wpc" but at what load and distortion? I can't find a proper datasheet, just a "product brief" that isn't much better.

I'd been looking at this external amp (as it can use the same 24V power supply) but the specs still leave me with lots of questions.

50wpc at 6ohm. So it's 37W at 8ohm by my calc.

It's also at THD+N 10%. I thought THD+N of 3% was where distortion became noticeable for most when playing actual music vs audio test signals.

At THD+N 1% for an 8 ohm load it's just over 29W per channel.

The Dayton CS620C speakers I'm looking at are rated 25W rms/50W peak.

Whenever I look at this stuff it's a game of "am I holding an apple or an orange"?

Honestly, the Lepai amp at Parts Express I posted in post #64 is fairly broadly considered the best available, sound-wise, among very cheap amps. It sounds great and the bass and treble controls will help you dial in the sound since neither the room (echo-prone garage) nor the speakers (ceiling speakers without a baffle) are perfect. The 36w (12v/3a) power supply that comes with it is only good for modest volumes though, it's best to look for a power supply around 60 watts. I think that the it will handle your 24v power supply, but double check the amp specs to confirm.

The rPi AMP hat may be fine -- most of these tiny amps sound surprisingly good, but no bass/treble controls. How will you adjust volume with the rPi DAC+AMP? It seems like it assumes you have a keyboard/monitor attached to turn volume up and down (or maybe it can be done via app). I used an rPi 3 to build an arcade for my son, but have never used rPi for audio.

I don't think I would do the amp with the built-in fan -- the fan noise might become annoying and the Lepai with upgraded power supply should go loud enough.

I found the self-contained amps to be easier to deal with than an amp board, but that obviously depends on what you are building.

https://www.parts-express.com/Lepai...dio-Mini-Amplifier-with-Power-Supply-310-3000

 

[Citation]

Honestly, the Lepai amp at Parts Express I posted in post #64 is fairly broadly considered the best available, sound-wise, among very cheap amps. It sounds great and the bass and treble controls will help you dial in the sound since neither the room (echo-prone garage) nor the speakers (ceiling speakers without a baffle) are perfect. The 36w (12v/3a) power supply that comes with it is only good for modest volumes though, it's best to look for a power supply around 60 watts. I think that the it will handle your 24v power supply, but double check the amp specs to confirm.

The rPi AMP hat may be fine -- most of these tiny amps sound surprisingly good, but no bass/treble controls. How will you adjust volume with the rPi DAC+AMP? It seems like it assumes you have a keyboard/monitor attached to turn volume up and down (or maybe it can be done via app). I used an rPi 3 to build an arcade for my son, but have never used rPi for audio.

I don't think I would do the amp with the built-in fan -- the fan noise might become annoying and the Lepai with upgraded power supply should go loud enough.

I found the self-contained amps to be easier to deal with than an amp board, but that obviously depends on what you are building.

https://www.parts-express.com/Lepai...dio-Mini-Amplifier-with-Power-Supply-310-3000

I've read that the newer Lepai's with the Texas Instruments chips are not as good as the older models, the LP-2020A which was the one so many people raved about. I like the little Lepai amps and have one paired with a set of Paradigm speakers on my porch. I would caution that they are low power amps. They worked nicely with my Paradigm speakers (gen 1 Titans, a 6" bookshelf speaker) but poorly with my similar sized NHT bookshelf speakers. The NHTs simply require more power and the amp can't keep up. Basically these are great amps for background sounds with efficient speakers. They are no good if your speakers need power. I also don't know if the TI model is as powerful as the older model. Shop with care.

 

[peterp]

I've read that the newer Lepai's with the Texas Instruments chips are not as good as the older models, the LP-2020A which was the one so many people raved about. I like the little Lepai amps and have one paired with a set of Paradigm speakers on my porch. I would caution that they are low power amps. They worked nicely with my Paradigm speakers (gen 1 Titans, a 6" bookshelf speaker) but poorly with my similar sized NHT bookshelf speakers. The NHTs simply require more power and the amp can't keep up. Basically these are great amps for background sounds with efficient speakers. They are no good if your speakers need power. I also don't know if the TI model is as powerful as the older model. Shop with care.

All true. I have had both the older version and the newer version and I don't hear a difference between them. The older version can no longer be produced because the chip is NLA. I think the older version could handle more amps than the included power supply put out, but it was limited to a 12v. I say that because I blew one up plugging in an 18v power supply forgetting the 12v limit (hopefully I am remembering that right). The new version is all that's available now and I think it can handle 24volts.

For whatever reason, both old and new came with a power supply that is far too wimpy. It's marked 3A/12V (36 watts of power), but I suspect it actually puts out a lot less than that rating because volume is definitely limited with the stock power supply. If you upgrade to a power supply with a voltage and amp rating that puts out 60 or so watts, the amp will go to quite loud with any reasonably efficient speakers.

Upgraded power supplies in any volt/amp combo are available on Amazon for about $10 shipped. If you still have the amp, it might be worth upgrading the power supply (just be sure to check the volt & amp limits for whichever version you have).

To confuse the issue even more, there is a brand called Lepy (to sound like Lepai) that is producing a model called "2020A" -- ripping off the name of the old Lepai model but not using the TI Tri-path chip. I don't know if the Lepy is any good, but I wouldn't trust it simply because they are obviously trying to rip off the brand/model name of the old Lepai amp.

.

 

[crazybrit]

Honestly, the Lepai amp at Parts Express I posted in post #64 is fairly broadly considered the best available, sound-wise

It's back-ordered till 5/31 at PE so it doesn't help me in regards to getting to $100 on this order. I'll keep it mind though. Thanks!

 

[peterp]

It's back-ordered till 5/31 at PE so it doesn't help me in regards to getting to $100 on this order. I'll keep it mind though. Thanks!

Sorry to hear that. There were 24 in stock when I first posted, then 12 when I referenced it the second time. If I was thinking, I would have warned that stock was drying up. They're generally not hard to find though, so if you do end up needing it, you should be able to find on Amazon if not PE.

 

[crazybrit]

If I was thinking

It's fine. I'm sure I can find something later if I need it.

I ordered the speakers.

It'll be a while till I get to install, need to rewire the shop for a mini-split first.

 

[glend123]

Here's what I just installed in my garage, maybe not what you're looking for but pretty easy to do.
Vintage Sherwood receiver and Dynaco A-25 speakers. still need to paint the shelves.

 

[peterp]

Here's what I just installed in my garage, maybe not what you're looking for but pretty easy to do.
Vintage Sherwood receiver and Dynaco A-25 speakers. still need to paint the shelves.

A man after my own heart. Here's my garage system -- 1972 Rotel RX-400 (shares same design as Harmon Kardon 330) and Allison 6 speakers (8" up-facing woofer in a 10" cube) -- sounds amazing. The Sherwood receiver and Dynaco A-25's are both known to sound great -- they are on my "to get eventually" list -- I'm sure yours sounds amazing.

I use a Chromecast Audio on the Aux input of the Rotel to stream Pandora, Spotify, etc. When I stream radio stations via TuneIn on Chromecast Audio, and compare it to the same station on the FM tuner -- the FM tuner blows it away (not even close). I listen to FM, slight static from a remote jazz station and all, over streaming FM.

The OP has no room for this stuff -- but can't help but drift briefly off-topic given your equipment is on my "need" list .

 

[crazybrit]

How will you adjust volume with the rPi DAC+AMP? It seems like it assumes you have a keyboard/monitor attached to turn volume up and down (or maybe it can be done via app). I used an rPi 3 to build an arcade for my son, but have never used rPi for audio.

It's controllable via the Android app (*1). There are volume and equalizer controls.

How exactly the DAC+AMP hat works is a good question, I'm not sure if it differs from a DAC hat connected to a separate power amp.

I know many of the DAC hat's function as a software controlled pre-amp.

The volume control on the Lepai amplifier you linked to does have the advantage that you can turn to minimum on power on. Of course you could knock it and accidentally have it at max on power on.

Supposedly the software supports muting the DAC output on startup, but as they say, "software has bugs"

Lots of things I don't know the answer to at this point.

1: So if you need a phone to run the app, why don't you just connect the phone output to an amp. a) Curiosity b) I may later add a touch screen to control the player c) as I said, I can connect the PI to the existing monitor in the shop and run a standard web browser so it has uses other than audio

 

[PCMusicGuy]

There sure has been a lot of discussion in this thread. I think if you are getting some speakers that fit from a reputable place like parts express or monoprice, or getting some reasonable brand speakers, you'll be fine. In general, when I use my RPi to play music, I use the 1/8" audio jack output into a small 2.1 TPA3116 based amp (50w x 50w x 100w) connected to some speakers. No matter if I'm driving 5" speakers, 6.5" bookshelves, 8" bookshelves, or tiny Cambridge Audio Minx Min 10s, I can drive it enough to fill a 20' x 20' space at enough volume, at least for me.

 

[crazybrit]

There sure has been a lot of discussion in this thread. I think if you are getting some speakers that fit from a reputable place like parts express or monoprice, or getting some reasonable brand speakers, you'll be fine. In general, when I use my RPi to play music, I use the 1/8" audio jack output into a small 2.1 TPA3116 based amp (50w x 50w x 100w) connected to some speakers. No matter if I'm driving 5" speakers, 6.5" bookshelves, 8" bookshelves, or tiny Cambridge Audio Minx Min 10s, I can drive it enough to fill a 20' x 20' space at enough volume, at least for me.

Thanks for the reply.

I have a 10' long workbench (above which the ceiling speakers will be) which has storage cabinets underneath. There is a baseboard under the cabinets but it's probably only 4" tall. I wasn't sure if it would be possible to find a long skinny subwoofer that might fit behind that, flush with the floor.

This seems to be the highest rated 2.1 on PE though one of the reviews talks about the auto mute being questionable.

https://www.parts-express.com/TPS31...-x-50W-100W-with-Filter-and-Volume-Co-320-635

Anyways, this is for way in the future.

Yes, lots of replies. Most helpful and on-topic; unusual for GJ

 

[peterp]

Lots of things I don't know the answer to at this point.

1: So if you need a phone to run the app, why don't you just connect the phone output to an amp. a) Curiosity b) I may later add a touch screen to control the player c) as I said, I can connect the PI to the existing monitor in the shop and run a standard web browser so it has uses other than audio

If you can source all of the content you want to play from an iPhone or an iPad (or Android phone/tablet) -- you can just drive a cheap standalone amp with the headphone output of the phone/tablet -- no need for a DAC or rPi.

That's what I did in our kitchen -- mounted a iPad on the wall, hid the headphone/rca cable and power cables under the cabinet, hid the mini Lepai amp and a shallow subwoofer behind the refrigerator and then used the iPad for the source for all music (spotify, pandora, local music files loaded from itunes) and video (youtube, Xfinity/Comcast app, netflix, ...).

 

[crazybrit]

If you can source all of the content you want to play from an iPhone or an iPad (or Android phone/tablet) -- you can just drive a cheap standalone amp with the headphone output of the phone/tablet -- no need for a DAC or rPi.

Like I said, being able to read documents (manuals etc) full size PDFs (on a real monitor) is a useful bonus feature. Anyways, I think we're going in circles here. We all have diff use cases.

Thanks

 

[peterp]

Like I said, being able to read documents (manuals etc) full size PDFs (on a real monitor) is a useful bonus feature. Anyways, I think we're going in circles here. We all have diff use cases.

Thanks

Your use case is spread out over a large number of posts, so it's pretty hard to follow. Good luck with it and let us know what you end up with.