Cellulose Installing in Pole building...

[Fun pain]

I haven't seen this on here (but it could be)....

I have polebuilding with OSB/housewrapped/Vinyl siding on my walls, I did bookshelf/commersial girting to accomidate that plan, this also helps great with drywalling.

To insulate, I used cellulose in walls and ceiling. The walls are very easy to do and way faster then batts, cheaper and will seal up any leaks.

Here are MY studs.

Here is with the Insulweb (not the right name I will update with correct one.....before blowing in cellulose. This stuff comes in 4'11" by 300'.

I used lots of staples and just pulled it as tight as possible, the picture is of us glueing the webbing to the studs, not really needed. But I wanted the studs to be flat for glueing drywall. An glueing the web to the studs asures that cellullose won't get between the staples.

300' roll = $45

6" Cellulose 40sqft @ R-19 = $5

so 400sqft wall would be way less the 100bucks (because you would have lots of mesh left, for other walls.

For this garage I bought 130bags, put 16" in the ceiling and 6" all the walls minus 3 garage doors.... 30 x 50 pole building. less the $700 for a very well insulated building.... Fiberglass would of taken far more time, wouldn't of been nearly as good at insulating or sealing, and PRICE would be almost triple....

If you don't have studs like this, like most polebuildings.... I have run stringers 4' on center on the inside of other building and stapled it up just like that, and filled the WHOLE wall with cellulose. That is would be an even better R value because of less conduction through studs. On all barns make sure the ground under the wall are vapor barriered well. So moisture doesn't go up from the ground into your insulation.

I live in Ohio, and am using Radiant heat, so no VAPOR barriers on the inside. I want all walls to dry both ways. (in/out) For hot humid summers, and low temp winters.

I am sure there will be questions, I will gladly answer any....

 

[STINEY]

Nice work, sounds like you have done your homework on the vapor barrier. Looks like the makings of a great shop!

 

[Fun pain]

Thanks,

I am Electro-mechanical engineer, and have done lots of physics homework....lol

 

[Highbeam]

Do you have a build thread with more of these types of thoughtful approaches to decisions? Your red (!!) floor for example?

Not many pole barns are built with OSB exteriors. I have concerns with bowing and corrosion of the metal exterior in contact with loose fill cellulose.

 

[Fun pain]

RED FLOOR

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205724


total build thread not yet.... but what else do you wanta see? or know?


this isn't "loose fill" it is "Dense packed cellulose"

 

[bullnerd]

How do you get the cellulose into the cavities?

Everywhere I ever used cellulose it always compressed and got a "shell" on the outside.

Any worries of it sagging?

 

[Fun pain]

How do you get the cellulose into the cavities? Really easy, just slice an opening for the 3" blower tube.I just cut a vertical 6" line with a razor and filler up, you can see and feel how full it is.

The hard shell, is the effect of humidity or moisture in the air getting into the stuff, that is fine... most have a glue of some kind mixed with it for wet blown cellulose. So it can be installed like a spit wade, when it dries out it will be more solid. just google wet blown cellulose...

Sagging? where? walls will be dense packed behind the drywall, and the ceiling is drywall with cellulose blown on top

 

[theoldwizard1]

I saw a video where someone used the same technique on an existing garage. IIRC, they actually built out the 2x4 to (nominal) 6" depth before applying the Insulweb.

I still don't understand the logic of no vapor barrier. Are you implying that without a vapor barrier it dries out quicker ?


The take away from this should be, if you are going to have finished interior wall, cellulose insulation is extremely cost effective and very DIY ! It also tend to fill small, awkward cavities much like spray foam. A combination of the 2 (foam for seams/cracks, the rest blown in cellulose) is even better and still DIY.

 

[Fun pain]

Vapor Barrier is not simple. And I will explain why NONE in mine or YOURS (SE MI)

Location: Ohio = very hot and humid summers, air conditioning for months, and dry and cold winters for months. You know this in your area too, some times in spring and fall, you run a heater in the morning and air conditioning in after noon.

In the south with mostly air conditioning(dehumidifing) of the inclosure (garage) you should always put the Vapor Barrier on the outside of the walls. the walls will dry to the inside and keep out moisture....

In the north (above us) you put it on the inside to allow humidity on the inside to be "protected" from the dry outside cold.

The biggest reason for me is my heat source.... Electric Radiant heat. This will not burn any humidity out of the inside of my garage!!!!

If you have a wood burner, forced air, space heater that burns the air and humidity, go ahead and use inside vapor barrier, the heating source with help control humidity.

Just like HEAT GOES TO COLD.... WET GOES TO DRY.... SOOOO

Example: Garage > Vapor Barrier on the inside> Radiant heated slab THEN you drive a wet snow covered car into that enclosure...

===== SAUNA, moisture has no where to go. It will rust tools, cars....SAUNA

another post http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177936

Let me know when I have explained enough.... this is a long topic.

 

[theoldwizard1]

J
Example: Garage > Vapor Barrier on the inside> Radiant heated slab THEN you drive a wet snow covered car into that enclosure...

===== SAUNA, moisture has no where to go. It will rust tools, cars....SAUNA

So by spring you have damp insulation. How much can really get through 6" on cellulose, OSB and house wrap to the cold, dry air (SE MI tend to be cold and damp) ?

The cellulose dries out in spring only to absorb moisture in the summer (from open doors and windows, assuming you put a vapor barrier under the slab), dry out in fall and start the cycle over again.

I know that cellulose usually has some fire retardant, but is it also treated to prevent mold/mildew ?

 

[Fun pain]

House wrap in not a vapor barrier like plastic or foam. unless install wrong. House wrap allowes dry outward. And helps AIR and moisture from entering. So in the cold dry winter, the humidity and moisture will be wicked, if you will, out of the building, into the outside atomosphere.

Summer is a different ball game, because of air exchange from outside to inside sky rockets because I want it to. (open garage doors, windows, doors) so because "I" allow my walls and ceiling to dry both ways, in and out. The moisture content of the wood frame and insulation will be very close to the atmosphere. UNLESS I run an air conditioner in the garage, then drying is going inward, and If I had barrier on the inside this will condensate, walls and insulation. Just like using vapor barrier on the wrong side down south....

Wetting and drying changes by hours not by seasons in OH and MI, I'm not saying you can't control the moisture, with air handlers, HVAC, fresh air ducts, and humidifiers, exhaust fans....you can.... but WHY....and that would add cost. much more. (equimpment and operation)

I don't think most garages even ones as efficent as ours are, need that added monthly cost of air and humidity control.

I use vapor barrier under floor and under walls, to avoid a paper towel effect in my framing and insulation.

 

[minerfarmer]

I am having a 36X40 building put up at present time. They started putting some metal on yesterday morning when the temp was 5 degrees. I will build a wall down the middle to end up with a 36X20 shop. I hope to install a mini-split for heat and ac for my central Illinois climate. I like your thinking on the cellulose insulation and vapor barrier. My contractor is wrapping the whole building with single bubble(foil,plastic bubble,white plastic). I was going to use unfaced fiberglass bats but you have convinced me to consider cellulose. Thanks for your posts and sharing of your knowledge.

 

[anthony666]

i like that you're thinking outside the box .. but i disagree about radiant not drying things up

after i spray foamed the crawl space under my livingroom i started noticing i was sneezing a lot and eventually i could smell mold in the air .. i stuck my head through the hatch and confirmed my suspicions, it was cold, damp and there was evidence of mold forming .. luckily i'm super sensitive to mold .. to cure it i ran 800 ft of in joist, with no insulation below .. that did two things, warmed my floor and warmed the crawlspace .. a mere two days later it was dry as a bone down there, crisis averted

as you said, dry air in winter, humid air in summer .. that's because the warmer air gets the more capacity it has for picking up moisture .. a given volume of air at 20°C (68°F) can hold twice the amount of water vapor than at 10°C (50°F) .. so any method of warming the air, even lowly radiant will load up moisture and the instant you open the door the warm moist air gets replaced by colder dry air .. why ?? because as you say hot goes to cold and wet goes to dry .. even a very modest amount of ventilation will take care of your moisture problems from snow melting of your truck etc

look at a commercial snow melt system like on a reverse grade driveway or a shopping mall loading dock .. why don't you see standing water or huge patches of ice ??? because the the air directly above the slab is just warm enough to absorb the water vapor and any slight air movement will take it away

 

[bullnerd]

I am having a 36X40 building put up at present time. They started putting some metal on yesterday morning when the temp was 5 degrees. I will build a wall down the middle to end up with a 36X20 shop. I hope to install a mini-split for heat and ac for my central Illinois climate. I like your thinking on the cellulose insulation and vapor barrier. My contractor is wrapping the whole building with single bubble(foil,plastic bubble,white plastic). I was going to use unfaced fiberglass bats but you have convinced me to consider cellulose. Thanks for your posts and sharing of your knowledge.

I think you need to reread what he is saying. That bubble wrap may be an issue if your considering doing what he did.

 

[Fun pain]

666,

I'm not saying radiant can't dry things up, and I liked your physics... But on and epoxy coated garage floor with no drain at all. My slab won't absorb water. So I am choosing were the moisture will go. And yes a door opening, or exhaust fan, or an air handler would take care of it but, who wants that expense.

The snow melting systems your talking about are not epoxy coated, with lots drainage usually,and with lots of air movement.... Way different environment...

I am not clear on what you did with the foam in your crawlspace, or in joist...crawlspaces are supposed to be treated as a heated space. Did you closed cell foam the ground or floor?

 

[minerfarmer]

I understand the single bubble will be a vapor barrier under the metal. The main purpose of the single bubble is to keep the metal on roof and walls from sweating. I will not be using a vapor barrier on the inside. Hope to use a mini-split for heat and ac. It will be a shop not parking for wet snow covered cars or trucks. Planned on using unfaced fiberglass but might now use cellulose if I can figure out all the details. What are your thoughts?

 

[anthony666]

sorry dude, i missed the part where you said you were an engineer

is there a reason you engineered the floor with no drainage ???

i spray foamed the block walls from the inside rather than dig up around the outside and replace the original exterior eps that had degraded .. it was just meant as an illustration of the power of warm air to dry things up, not a direct correlation to your shop

some snow melt systems are epoxy coated and have no drainage; helicopter landing pads .. but yes, again an illustration, i'm not suggesting helicopters are gonna land in your shop

 

[Highbeam]

I understand the single bubble will be a vapor barrier under the metal. The main purpose of the single bubble is to keep the metal on roof and walls from sweating. I will not be using a vapor barrier on the inside. Hope to use a mini-split for heat and ac. It will be a shop not parking for wet snow covered cars or trucks. Planned on using unfaced fiberglass but might now use cellulose if I can figure out all the details. What are your thoughts?

Of all the places to put a single vapor barrier, you should NOT put it on the cold side of the wall. That cellulose will turn to mud.

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Dang those pictures are huge!!!!!

 

[Fun pain]

No drain....

1. Harder to control heat and moisture
2. I work on a lot of cars and engines..etc

BIG 3. The garage is on a little hill. With a drain it would most likely send rainbow water out the drain for all of town to see... And I am right in the middle of town rite aid, napa, dominos pizza, and a few churches are my nieghbors...lol

Change topic, again (your livingroom)
Is there a vapor barrier on the ground?

I am thinking that what ever your floor covering was/is causing a vapor retarding effect, and the crawl space wasn't heat but the living room is... Heated room above cold crawl space

See what mean? Hard the write this sort of thing.

www.Buildingscience.com has an article about exactly that...click picture for link to the article

 

[anthony666]

no bud .. the problem is it's an old house .. sorry about the delayed response, took me a while to decipher what you wrote

i'm guessing an oil separator was out of the budget ???

 

[Highbeam]

I purposely built my floor flat as well. We don't have that snow melt issue and I would rather have a flat floor. No discharge is expected.

 

[Fun pain]

corrected my last post, I am not phoning in anymore posts....

 

[anthony666]

corrected my last post, I am not phoning in anymore posts....

 

[hybred355]

I see you like our Canadian beer. Good job on the garage. Larry

 

[Bowser]

I like your idea. I thought of the same thing and saw your thread. Did you have a professional blow it in or did you rent a machine? If so, how much was it and where did you rent it from etc?

 

[bullnerd]

He hasn't been on in 2 months.