mngundog
Well-known member
I don't own a single Snap-on wrench, but the lettering font between the two wrenches are distinctly different.
Counterfeit Snap on wrenches? Is there such a thing?
- Thread starter impactims
- Start date
It's called Vevor
I have SOXRM set with age codes from 2023/2024 and the lettering is more like yours compared to all my other Snap-on wrenches which are older. Can't be 100% sure, because I don't share same lighting as in your pictures.
My old SOEXM10 that have seen melting accident and the one that replaced it are different. Chroming looks different. Aged in use. There is around 1mm difference where the bent starts. Box end on the new one is slightly thicker. Box end chamfer is slightly different. Old is more sharp and newer is more rounded. Older is from 2012 and can't really tell what it is. Maybe 2014 or 2017. Bought it from my Snap-on dealer earlier this year. Both from Snap-on dealers. Overall length is within 1mm.
Open end mouth measured from roughly the same spot are within 0.1 mm between SOXRM15A from 2023, SOXRRM15 from 2017 and SOEXM15 from 1991 (PAT PEND).
My old SOEXM10 that have seen melting accident and the one that replaced it are different. Chroming looks different. Aged in use. There is around 1mm difference where the bent starts. Box end on the new one is slightly thicker. Box end chamfer is slightly different. Old is more sharp and newer is more rounded. Older is from 2012 and can't really tell what it is. Maybe 2014 or 2017. Bought it from my Snap-on dealer earlier this year. Both from Snap-on dealers. Overall length is within 1mm.
Open end mouth measured from roughly the same spot are within 0.1 mm between SOXRM15A from 2023, SOXRRM15 from 2017 and SOEXM15 from 1991 (PAT PEND).
Agreed. Snapon box ends have a distinctly shallow chamfer. Everything else looks passable but the chamfer we see on these wrenches is not Snap-on.
Kinda bizarre that they would match all the other details so closely but miss that detail.
I agree. I have 70-80 Snap-on wrenches with box ends and chamfer is very consistent between different sizes and different series. None of them look like those.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
As shown by the white paper, after 10000 strikes the part they were stamping grew by 1.6mm in one dimension. While its not the same die as snap on is using, we simply don't know how far they let the dies wear before replacing. The forgings indubitably will grow in length.
I machined large diesel rods for several years and then maintained the machines that did so after. Even though we were maintaining +/- .008mm and .013mm tolerances on the pin and crank bores the forgings themselves had a +/- 2mm tolerance and sometimes that was allowed to be higher depending on where it was out with engineers approval as measured on the CMM machine.
And then a worker uses a high speed belt grinder to grind on both ends which definitely will have an effect on length as well. This can be seen at time stamps 1:33 for the open end and 1:38 on the box end. The operators skill, start of shift or end of shift, and even how fresh the belt is on the grinder is going to affect how much metal is taken off that directly affects length, even from shift to shift.
I don't know if you have used a big industrial Kalamazoo or burr king belt grinder, but a 1/4" is half of a Mississippi or less with a fresh belt.
If you were to measure a larger sample size and you will be surprised how much they vary, I know I was when I measured several.
Yes, but you have wrenches from different years to compare. Stamping dies wear out quickly as well. The die blocks on the bed or ram have adjustments and how much care is put into setting and again, the forging is growing until its die is replaced, since they locate the wrench on the fixture via a hand sanded surface at 1:38
So it's counterfeited wrenches at a too-good-to-be-true price?
What's the problem? they look like usable wrenches.
Sticking it to Snap On was the goal here, regardless. Expecting two forged steel wrenches to be completely identical, seems a bit silly anyway.
What's the problem? they look like usable wrenches.
Sticking it to Snap On was the goal here, regardless. Expecting two forged steel wrenches to be completely identical, seems a bit silly anyway.
Ha! @Firebrick43 ... "Indubitably"... had a friend used that word camping about 20 years ago we still bust his chops about it. Don't recall ever seeing it used by anyone else. Anyway carry on, not criticizing just made me laugh 
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Don't watch the simpsons much?Ha! @Firebrick43 ... "Indubitably"... had a friend used that word camping about 20 years ago we still bust his chops about it. Don't recall ever seeing it used by anyone else. Anyway carry on, not criticizing just made me laugh
If you are saying that there is not enough evidence here to say that these are phony, you know where to buy them. The differences are too much to convince me. Not to mention everything else about them, about the seller, the circumstantial evidence.
The font in the pic you posted is a match to my friend’s known good Snap on wrenches. It differs from the wrenches I received.I have SOXRM set with age codes from 2023/2024 and the lettering is more like yours compared to all my other Snap-on wrenches which are older. Can't be 100% sure, because I don't share same lighting as in your pictures.
My old SOEXM10 that have seen melting accident and the one that replaced it are different. Chroming looks different. Aged in use. There is around 1mm difference where the bent starts. Box end on the new one is slightly thicker. Box end chamfer is slightly different. Old is more sharp and newer is more rounded. Older is from 2012 and can't really tell what it is. Maybe 2014 or 2017. Bought it from my Snap-on dealer earlier this year. Both from Snap-on dealers. Overall length is within 1mm.
Open end mouth measured from roughly the same spot are within 0.1 mm between SOXRM15A from 2023, SOXRRM15 from 2017 and SOEXM15 from 1991 (PAT PEND).
The problem is that the tolerances are sloppy and the steel and chrome are of unknown quality. And I don’t like the deep chamfer. A deep chamfer means less engagement.
They don’t need to be completely identical to be worthy of use and worthy of a permanent place in the tool box. I understand changes in production runs. We are not dealing with production run changes here. I understand that a die will change with use as well. That’s not what we are dealing with either. The differences here are not die related.
If you think they look good, they you know where to buy.
And I highly doubt sticking it to snap on was the goal. I would bet that someone simply decided there was money to be made with this endeavor.
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Actually, no, but that explains alot probably where my buddy got it from!
If he is Gen X, there was a cereal commercial in the late 80’s where Jimmy Durante says indubitably a lot of times.
That is what I think of when I hear the word indubitably.
51dueller
Well-known member
"Inconceivable!" Is also a good one.
To me it seems interesting that they would go to the effort of making the open end flank drive broach. You won't find that in a catalog where as a standard 12 pt boxend broach is readily available.
To me it seems interesting that they would go to the effort of making the open end flank drive broach. You won't find that in a catalog where as a standard 12 pt boxend broach is readily available.
Everyone knows the drill, or at least we should.
Snap On tools are top quality, but they are also very expensive. Buy them from Snap On. If one can't afford them or too cheap to pay the price, buy something different.
Otherwise, buying them dirt cheap elsewhere, it should almost almost a given, there is likely nefarious activity involved. Sure some sell them at a discount, which real SO buyers will like, but then why sell cheap? Usually it's to drag in the "too-good-to-be true" buyers, or the poor who want to look better off.
Kind of like the $300 Louis Vuitton knock off hand bag.
Nobody-named-Olli
Well-known member
A definite answer from Snap-On would be great, I still don’t think these are counterfeit.
The “markets” are simply far too different, to compare this to household name luxury brand counterfeiting operations.
The math doesn’t add up for just a few sets. And if this was happening, there had to be a lot, really a whole lot, more of them.
My thoughts go more towards questioning if they left their origin lawfully. For example, If they ever were supposed to leave the factory except for recycling.
And that would be, why I wouldn’t buy them - but counterfeit, I don’t think so.
Kind regards,
Olli
The “markets” are simply far too different, to compare this to household name luxury brand counterfeiting operations.
The math doesn’t add up for just a few sets. And if this was happening, there had to be a lot, really a whole lot, more of them.
My thoughts go more towards questioning if they left their origin lawfully. For example, If they ever were supposed to leave the factory except for recycling.
And that would be, why I wouldn’t buy them - but counterfeit, I don’t think so.
Kind regards,
Olli
Maybe they are sold elsewhere globally as "wrenches" with some other name (maybe even SO) stamped on them.
Looking at YouTube comparison videos and the Internet, there seems to be lot of wrenches that look pretty/very similar.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
@impactims
Do any of the wrenches have the patent number on the back?
Do any of the wrenches have the patent number on the back?
No patent numbers.
I would agree with this as long as all we are talking about is Snap on product advertised as new on a platform such as eBay. Even more so if new, on eBay and at a low price point.
On the other hand vintage, antique, used etc. on eBay, I have had good luck with. Never seen as much as a red flag. No evidence of anything nefarious as you say.
This was my first experience buying “new” Snap on from an eBay seller.
neophyte
Well-known member
Snap-On sells tools industrially, at lower prices than mechanics get on a truck, and also offers significant discounts to students in trade school on some tools and tool sets (50%?), which may be the same as the industrial discount.
Snap-On also made US military General Mechanics Tool Kits, after Armstrong went under, and a bunch of those have wound up on eBay, as have individual tools and tool sets from the kits, since there is likely more profit margin, and quicker, in the broken up kits.
I haven’t reread the thread to tell if impactims actually mentioned what the wrench set cost, but 25% of normal Snap-On site listed retail price could certainly be a genuine price for a surplus flipper offering genuine non-counterfeit product.
Basically a flipper gets surplus Snap-On, and knows that students pay half this.
The students also get a Snap-On account for warrantees, which surplus wrenches won’t have. (Officially).
He then offers the kits at 25% retail, presuming he paid less than that, which is fully possible for surplus purchased at auction, or bankruptcy sale.
As far as the differences between the Snap-On wrenches, it’s fully possible over time and batches, and human variation for that to happen, as Firebrick43 said.
Two wrenches a few years apart both supposedly produced by Snap-On should likely have consistent steel alloy, for the same type and model of wrench, since Snap-On is apparently very good at that, and I would presume the strength should be within 5% on two separate wrenches, but both of those would take destructive testing.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I am saying that the differences that you have measured and have actually published in this thread, are less than I have measured and others have measured of snap on wrenches from known genuine sources.
We have had similar discussions in the past. And its not just snap on, I know there is variation in wright as well and I assume nearly all wrenches made is similar way. I only know one series of wrench that is CNC machined entirely.
Measure the greatest thickness of your 16mm open end wrench and post it, also measure the actually open end jaw width and post it, not in the FDX groove
Dakotadadv8
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 30, 2021
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Lower the risk buy from SO.
ChevyEFI
Well-known member
Looking carefully at the posted pics, you're gonna make the robster angry
Wrench97
Well-known member
Snap On Industrial has different part numbers on the tool, and sometimes different tools, I have a chrome 1-1/4" 3/4" drive 6 point socket never offered through the Snap On mechanics catalog, years and years ago some dealers were both industrial and retail and I suspect this is how I got the socket in the 1970's, it's cracked and comes back as Industrial only no life time warranty, in fact my current dealer can't even order a replacement to buy.
I think the same.
The SK-like softness of the transition from handle to box end is, in my view, not indicative of Snap-on combination wrenches. The deeper chamfer seems suspect to me as well. The seller's single, poor, group photograph of the wrenches and having multiple sets available doesn't exactly help the idea that they're real.
Something perhaps important as well is that if one was going to make counterfeit Snap-on Wrenches, I'd think a set of flank drive plus regular length metric combination wrenches would be THE thing to counterfeit. That's probably the set Snap-on sells the most of.
The $250 plus $22 shipping plus tax looks to be the same if not a bit higher than what other SOEXM710 sets are going for on ebay.
I'd say send em back and get a different set on ebay from a different seller.
If you need help identifying what looks to be real, send me a PM and I'll be happy to help. I'm sure others would as well. I'm no expert, but I have bought and sold a lot of Snap-on wrenches.
Measurements aside, the box end is still totally different. The open end is still quite different. The measurements and weights are just circumstantial evidence.
If you really think these are legit, post some pics of true SO with box ends that match post #61.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
That is just one wrench correct?
Wouldn't the one wrench's box end be circumstantial evidence as well?
Have you met Dave at a factory? Every factory has Dave. He is the one that messes up and passes it along hopefully missing the quality gates. The highest quality engine manufacture in the world sometimes had Dave working there.
You were quite sure 0.010" was proof that it was a fake? But now you don't post measurements on one size of wrench to see how inconsistent they are as its just circumstantial?
Not quite as bad as 61 but I had 3 wrenches with significant chamfer out of a SOEXM710 set and a OEX710 set. All the other wrenches were nearly flat or very minimal chamfer. A 13/16 shown, a 13mm and 9/16 were the other two but not as severe.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Here out of my OEXM710 set you can see that the 12mm was stamped below center and there fore the bottom of the text is light and not perfect compared to the other side.
The other side is spot on so the bottom die was off for whatever reason
milky2k
Well-known member
I don't own Snap On wrenches and I'm no SO expert, but I've seen plenty at flea markets and these wouldn't stand out as counterfeits to me. If they are counterfeit, they put in a lot of effort to make them look legit. I thought you were going to get some poorly made knock offs but these look fine. I bet if you get a few more sets to compare against, you will find differences between known genuine sets as well. I wonder if Rockwell hardness testing would reveal anything? Anyway, its seems like you got a good deal on some decent looking wrenches, enjoy!
That is just one wrench correct?
Wouldn't the one wrench's box end be circumstantial evidence as well?
You were quite sure 0.010" was proof that it was a fake? But now you don't post measurements on one size of wrench to see how inconsistent they are as its just circumstantial?
Every wrench had the SK style transition from handle to box end as pictured in 61.
Every wrench had a major chamfer.
I apologize if I did not clarify these points adequately. It’s not easy to photograph and document every last thing, but we do our best, right? Rather than photograph every wrench and do a side by side, I did only one. But as I said, every wrench is as pictured even though I did not photograph every wrench this way.
I say the measurements and weight is circumstantial as that could easily be human error. I say the box end differences are not circumstantial because this is evidence that it isn’t likely even made in the same factory given such a major shape difference. This is more “hard evidence” where as the measurements are more “circumstantial evidence” is what I am trying to say.
The open end is different too.
Too many things don’t add up.
@Firebrick43
I get the “Dave” thing….
But a completely different shape? And every wrench in the set being that exact different shape? This looks more like being made properly, but elsewhere with different tooling than a goof-ball using correct tooling and screwing up in the process. Because if this were the case, not every wrench in the set would have the same exact oddity. I don’t think anyways.
And the goof-ball theory does not explain the oddity of this seller having so many of them and them being all brand new with no factory Snap on plastic tray and packaging. Amongst other oddities about the whole deal.
I get the “Dave” thing….
But a completely different shape? And every wrench in the set being that exact different shape? This looks more like being made properly, but elsewhere with different tooling than a goof-ball using correct tooling and screwing up in the process. Because if this were the case, not every wrench in the set would have the same exact oddity. I don’t think anyways.
And the goof-ball theory does not explain the oddity of this seller having so many of them and them being all brand new with no factory Snap on plastic tray and packaging. Amongst other oddities about the whole deal.
Agree I’d want to know, but mostly for the sake of my bank balance. My $25 Chinese wrench’s turn nuts just as well as my SO ones which were about 20x more expensive, but if I’m paying $250 for a set of wrench’s, they’d better be genuine.
I already sent them back.
At this point it’s just friendly, healthy debate as to whether or not they are phony.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
If they are all like the one you pictured then maybe. Or maybe they were rejects at the factory and someone johnny cash them?
As far as SK transition, none of them look like that to me, All my SK's really flare, hell those look like less flare than 70's/80's snap ons but there is no pic looking down the shanks and only one wrench that is pictured from the side so its very hard to tell.
this is my bet. Defects that are still usable walk out of factories all the time.
I did ask.
I sent him a message showing him what I pointed out here asking where he got them. This was the day before yesterday. No response.