Craftsman bashing

[JazzBlueRT]

At risk of :but not wanting to : I do not understand the Craftsman bashing around here.

Nobody ever posts actual facts about warranty rates, defect rates, alloy composition or actual lab tests concerning tool durability and strength. All I ever see is COO and anecdotal hyperbole.

To me, it seems almost irrational. Kinda like a Honda owner telling me Chrysler has bad transmissions. Wait! What! Do you really believe your perpetually recalled Honda transmission is better quality than the ZF 8 speed in my Mopar!

I have a garage full of Craftsman tools and other equipment that I have accumulated over the past 30 years. From my experience, the quality of the tools has increased substantially over the past 30 years regardless of COO. The only reason for the abundance of Craftsman tools is the value proposal of the tool. I also have quite a few of the Harbor Freight air tools for the same reason. My Husky tool boxes were brought for the same reason, build quality for the price.

I visit a Sears, Home Depot and Harbor Freight almost weekly. With rare exceptions, the Craftsman tools, when on sale, always present the best value out there. Surprisingly, over the past several years, Harbor Freight has become more expensive for the same or lower quality tools than the Craftsman.

I can understand professional mechanics who's income depends upon the ability to have someone come to the shop to replace a tool.

I even get the COO warriors as I also like to support my fellow American worker.

For home DIY repairs and home mechanics like me, Craftsman, Kobalt, Husky, Gearwrench, etc.. are all the same quality. They are all good enough and in most cases will outlive the original purchaser and their grandchildren.

Yes, there are better tools, but not for the money and having tools which will last for my great grandchildren over just my grandchildren is not a real value proposal.

For some odd reason, the Craftsman name brings up often hostile inexplicable hatred. I don't get it.

 

[uncwstudent]

I think that there are two issues here:

First, the quality of Craftsman tools has noticeably deteriorated over the past 15 years, without a doubt. The issue isn't so much the COO as much as it is the drop in Quality Assurance Quality Control (QAQC) and the inferior materials out which newer Craftsman tools are made. The biggest frustration is that the prices for these newer tools are about on par with the older (better built) Craftsman tools which I think leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Secondly--and I believe that this is more important--there is a lot of frustration with the fact that a brand as representative of American workmanship as Craftsman tools have been whored out by a hedge fund manager (who doesn't work with his hands) into just another lower cost tool company with a fancy warranty. The big issue is that for most of its history, Craftsman tools represented a well-made and high quality American tool company that made quality tools affordable for middle and lower class Americans. Now, we are left with the extremes: It's either the very high quality and ridiculously expensive truck tool brands or its the low quality Harbor Freight or Husky or Kobalt alternatives. Like everything else, those who want a nice balance of quality and price are sort of left out in the cold.

I think that the issue with Craftsman tools is much more of an emotional issue. It's the crumbling of the old America--which emphasized hard work and high quality--in favor of the new America--which emphasizes throw away objects and bottom line prices.

At least that's just my two cents.

 

[lakeroadster]

I don't get it either.

.... For some odd reason, the Craftsman name brings up often hostile inexplicable hatred. I don't get it.

I too am a Craftsman fan. Other than an inherited set of Wizard tools from my Dad, 95% of the hand tools I own are Craftsman. No issues, no fuss, no drips, no runs and no errors.

Contrast that to the folks here that go to Harbor Freight, buy ****, then post threads here how to modify the HF **** into something that is workable. And then other folks follow their lead?

Those that have a problem with Craftsman "whoring out" as was mentioned above, if you're one of the folks buying **** from HF and modifying it, you are part of the problem, a very big part.

 

[PartsGuy27]

Hold a Craftsman ratchet and then hold a Snap-On or equivalent. Tell me there's not a difference.

My craftsman ratchets have chipped teeth and have been used 1/4 as much as my Snap-Ons. Same with pry bars, after having to warranty my craftsman 3x I bought a Snap-On and haven't looked back since.

For the average weekend warrior they're fine. For those who require high quality and precision ill keep my Snap-On's.

Just my .02

 

[Fretters]

Hold a Craftsman ratchet and then hold a Snap-On or equivalent. Tell me there's not a difference.

I don't believe the OP is arguing that point. He's merely highlighting what appears to be an unreasonable dislike of a budget tool for being, a budget tool.

 

[visionguru]

....
For some odd reason, the Craftsman name brings up often hostile inexplicable hatred. I don't get it.

Many people here have long (even multigenerational) relationship with Craftsman, which was iconic Made in USA, DIY, semi-pro tool brands. Suddenly, the company is not doing so well, no money on innovation, and starting making most of their tools in China. Some other brands (such as Gearwrench) are making better design/quality tools. That affects relationships and hurts feelings. I'd compare this "inexplicable" hatred to divorce. The hostility is largely based on feelings than facts.

 

[shawndp]

I think you answered your own question - if you are a DIY'er, CM / HF / Mastercraft / Gearwrench will not make a world of difference. A lot of users here are flat-rate mechanics, so they are constantly trying to beat the clock on repairs. In those situations, a quality tool will shine. An example is the impact bit from Princess Auto (our version of HF) broke while doing brakes on a Hyundai Accent, but my Matco bit worked like a beast. Now think about that time wasted and multiply it by a few brake jobs a day over 5 or 6 days a week and you see the value in buying a better impact bit. The same with the ratchet - a GW 84T or a Matco Eighty8 will take a lot more force before it breaks or sends your hand crashing into the car. $20 vs $120, but you use that over even only 5 years (never mind a career) and the extra $100 has more than added value to your time.

 

[dogdog]

LOL... OP... that is a tool forum for you... You get hypocrite of all type... mostly bias China COO nazis for no other reason..... They don't even care if the brand is American. yet no issues on a ****** tool if it was made in any other country... It's the subjective mentality ?

I appreciate a good tool and solid warranty policy from No matter where it is made.... or company. I think the most I like about craftsman tool is the warranty, not that I have warranted any for past 25 years... which is also 80% of my tools sets... mixed of USA and China COO.

 

[dogdog]

Hold a Craftsman ratchet and then hold a Snap-On or equivalent. Tell me there's not a difference................
Just my .02

Can you get that same snap-on at the craftsman price... for most people, the snap-on truck doesn't stop by my door..... but I can drive to sears and get my warranty.... easily.?

 

[ez-duzit]

...the quality of the tools has increased substantially over the past 30 years...
I visit a Sears, Home Depot and Harbor Freight almost weekly...

There's your problem.

Quality increased? Delusional.

 

[PelicanPines]

I don't need craftsman anymore... they are all over my tool drawers...

No need to worry about the warranty either...

WHO THE HELL breaks tools??? Answer: People that don't know how to use tools.

I would consider HF for the odd tool but not the ones I already OWN from Sears... that have been acquired over the last 50 years...

If I was a new "tool user" I would go into debt for $100,000 and buy a shiny new Snap On box and some of their sockets and ratchets... Then try and sell them 5 years later when I'm unemployed and my wife is filing for divorce...

 

[ganymede]

....
Nobody ever posts actual facts about warranty rates, defect rates, alloy composition or actual lab tests concerning tool durability and strength. All I ever see is COO and anecdotal hyperbole. . .....

I have a garage full of Craftsman tools and other equipment that I have accumulated over the past 30 years. From my experience
the quality of the tools has increased substantially over the past 30 years regardless of COO. The only reason for the abundance of Craftsman tools is the value proposal of the tool. I also have quite a few of the Harbor Freight air tools for the same reason.

....
:

..

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Re: I don't get it either.

I too am a Craftsman fan. Other than an inherited set of Wizard tools from my Dad, 95% of the hand tools I own are Craftsman. No issues, no fuss, no drips, no runs and no errors.

Contrast that to the folks here that go to Harbor Freight, buy ****, then post threads here how to modify the HF **** into something that is workable. And then other folks follow their lead?

Those that have a problem with Craftsman "whoring out" as was mentioned above, if you're one of the folks buying **** from HF and modifying it, you are part of the problem, a very big part.

I think there's a difference between hand tools and modifying equipment.

Craftsman hand tools are generally overpriced as far as level of quality compared to HF hand tools in my experience.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Back in my day, Craftsman Tools had respect for their elders, they didn't spend all day at the tattoo parlor and they weren't stepping into traffic with their eyes glued to their cellphones!!

 

[tonyciambrone]

Couple of things:

Craftsman was never good. It was just one of the better brands available at the price point. Now there are so many available tool brands that excel and rival the pricing of Craftsman that there is no point apart from legacy and nostalgia to buy them.

Few exceptions: machinery that other people built for them. Craftsman Professional/ Industrial that is essentially Armstrong/ Matco.

The Raised Panel is one of the worst designs ever. So uncomfortable. The wrenches in my experience have poor tolerances and mar easily if the wrench isn't perfectly level to the fastener head. The ratchets are coarse, they chip teeth easily, and any of them with a quick-release or flex head are so sloppy it isn't even funny.

Chrysler was never good. Just because you like yours doesn't mean it isn't one of the worst brands out there. Just because you like your "8 speed" ZF transmission does not mean that Honda Transmissions are not more reliable on the whole...

Exception: Cummins 6bt

What are the four least reliable automotive brands?

Answer: Dodge, Fiat, Chrysler and Ram.

http://clark.com/cars/most-least-reliable-cars-consumer-reports/

 

[Gmonkee]

Craftsman was a name only from the start. It has NEVER been related to just one tool maker or nation.

I agree that decades ago CM was an icon of all the middle range America and deserved a cult following.
But even into the mid 80's everything had changed again and it was not all it used to be. I bought mine then. Dad didn't even think mine were equal.

I didn't even think about it too much when they got borrowed into oblivion.

And now those are the ones the good folks seek.

A name that has been shamed is now in the good hands of another tool borg that has its own factories worldwide and is very capable of returning to prestige or continuing to sink in the swamp.

I will bet SBD makes efforts to return it to prestige. They paid too much for what it had become to just burn the cash up.

CM is historially represented by the best US efforts of any given time frame to the lowest bidder **** that met projected specs from everywhere including the US.
It has far too many faces by now to throw blankets over it and say it is great or utter ****.

 

[PartsGuy27]

Can you get that same snap-on at the craftsman price... for most people, the snap-on truck doesn't stop by my door..... but I can drive to sears and get my warranty.... easily.?

I'd rather use my $11 Harbor Freight poly ratchet than the all metal "base model" Craftsman for 2x the price.

My first toolbox was a Craftsman. What a POS compaired to my Harbor Freight. That's when I lost faith in Craftsman.

 

[MN_Runner]

I think that there are two issues here:

First, the quality of Craftsman tools has noticeably deteriorated over the past 15 years, without a doubt.

Do you have numbers to back this statement up? I understand if it is just your personal perception but how do you prove the quality degradation without any numbers to support your thesis?

 

[Empty Pockets]

I have a large number of CM tools that I have acquired over 45+ years, as well as some truck brands and other "professional" brands.

In general the CM tools have done well in home owner and DIY applications, with hardly a failure. There is a difference in finish and quality of chrome on the higher price tools.

You get what you pay for

 

[uncwstudent]

Do you have numbers to back this statement up? I understand if it is just your personal perception but how do you prove the quality degradation without any numbers to support your thesis?

Quality and perception of quality aren't necessarily different. There is no way to quantify my statement above. However, having owned tons of Craftsman ratchets from the 1940s through the 1970s, I can say that yes, they have deteriorated in quality. The machining is far worse (even of the last years of the USA made tools) and the ratcheting mechanisms are rough and often skip.

Not everything can be quantified, particularly quality.

 

[6PTsocket]

I think that there are two issues here:

First, the quality of Craftsman tools has noticeably deteriorated over the past 15 years, without a doubt. The issue isn't so much the COO as much as it is the drop in Quality Assurance Quality Control (QAQC) and the inferior materials out which newer Craftsman tools are made. The biggest frustration is that the prices for these newer tools are about on par with the older (better built) Craftsman tools which I think leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Secondly--and I believe that this is more important--there is a lot of frustration with the fact that a brand as representative of American workmanship as Craftsman tools have been whored out by a hedge fund manager (who doesn't work with his hands) into just another lower cost tool company with a fancy warranty. The big issue is that for most of its history, Craftsman tools represented a well-made and high quality American tool company that made quality tools affordable for middle and lower class Americans. Now, we are left with the extremes: It's either the very high quality and ridiculously expensive truck tool brands or its the low quality Harbor Freight or Husky or Kobalt alternatives. Like everything else, those who want a nice balance of quality and price are sort of left out in the cold.

I think that the issue with Craftsman tools is much more of an emotional issue. It's the crumbling of the old America--which emphasized hard work and high quality--in favor of the new America--which emphasizes throw away objects and bottom line prices.

At least that's just my two cents.

First, Sears never made a single tool. They are a retailer that orders tools from tool makers. The Craftsman name represents who they are buying from this month. It has been a steady down hill slide from medium quality American to American ordered at the cheapest price they could make it for, to the cheapest Chinese they think they can get away with. The Warranty was what really made Craftsman tools popular. It does not have to be that good if you can walk in and get another one, FOREVER. Your claim that there is no middle ground is not true. Without the costly tool truck distribution, US brands like SK and Wright make great tools at a decent price. Tekton sells some very decent import and US stuff at very low prices. The Snap On industrial division, Williams makes good tools at much better prices than the stuff off the truck.Imports like Sunnex make good stuff. Some of the Gearwrench stuff is OK. There are other sources that I am sure I missed.If somebody never gets beyond the big box stores, HF and Sears, they don't see what is available

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Stadger]

WHO THE HELL breaks tools??? Answer: People that don't know how to use tools.

Bingo!

 

[SantaAna12]

Do you have numbers to back this statement up? I understand if it is just your personal perception but how do you prove the quality degradation without any numbers to support your thesis?

If CMAN works for you, then go for what you know.

My experience: Ford E350 with a 460 trying to fix a damn exhaust leak. Over 300k miles. CMAN box end started to round one. If u know the feel, then you know that on this particular vehicle you do NOT want to pull a motor.
I borrowed from a friend. A good friend. Did not blink when handing me his SO combo.

Let me say this again. If CMAN works for you, then go for what you know.

Just about any production-work wrench in here can tell you a similar story.

If you don't have this experience, it does not mean this issue does not exist.

Now we return you to your regularly scheduled (FLAME SESSION) programming.

 

[uncwstudent]

First, Sears never made a single tool. They are a retailer that orders tools from tool makers. The Craftsman name represents who they are buying from this month. It has been a steady down hill slide from medium quality American to American ordered at the cheapest price they could make it for, to the cheapest Chinese they think they can get away with. The Warranty was what really made Craftsman tools popular. It does not have to be that good if you can walk in and get another one, FOREVER. Your claim that there is no middle ground is not true. Without the costly tool truck distribution, US brands like SK and Wright make great tools at a decent price. Tekton sells some very decent import and US stuff at very low prices. The Snap On industrial division, Williams makes good tools at much better prices than the stuff off the truck.Imports like Sunnex make good stuff. Some of the Gearwrench stuff is OK. There are other sources that I am sure I missed.If somebody never gets beyond the big box stores, HF and Sears, they don't see what is available

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Right, absolutely--Craftsman never made a single tool. I agree! But what I'm talking about is access for the middle class.

Sears--from its catalogs to its thousands of stores nationwide--built its entire business on the burgeoning middle class. It offered quality items at very affordable prices. SK and Wright may have been affordable at one time but they are certainly not affordable today. There is no way that you can argue that someone making 30k per year would find SK or Wright in any way "affordable." Craftsman was both affordable and good quality (yes, of course, its not a tool truck brand, but there are still tons of Craftsman tools around because they were built well and people bought tons of them).

 

[MN_Runner]

Not everything can be quantified, particularly quality.

I think quality goodness is quantified through number of returns, complaints, return customers and sales. I think perception is difficult to quantify but shows up in sales.

BTW: I think USA does less hard labor and manual work (which is good if we continue to emphasis on appropriate education). A lot of USA companies emphasize doing smart work, right work and maintaining high quality work to minimize customer complaints. We still have a lot of good and right companies in the USA. Not everything is going down the toilet.

 

[ducksface]

Bandwagoneering
And the
The quality of my work is guaranteed by the price of my tools
Gang.

You pick who fits where.

 

[Zapp Branigan]

I remember what Craftsman and Sears were like when I started buying tools there 35 years ago, so I can't help but bash their **** now. Much like myself, they ain't nothing like they used to be

 

[Ign]

I thought this was the CraftsmanBashingJournal? No??

It seems to never get old around here.

 

[Keelhauled]

The biggest frustration is that the prices for these newer tools are about on par with the older (better built) Craftsman tools which I think leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Considering that inflation is a thing, that means that the tools have become cheaper over time. Of course, seeing as wages have hardly kept pace with inflation, it may not make them more affordable for most, but that is hardly Sears' fault.

 

[uncwstudent]

I think quality goodness is quantified through number of returns, complaints, return customers and sales. I think perception is difficult to quantify but shows up in sales.

BTW: I think USA does less hard labor and manual work (which is good if we continue to emphasis on appropriate education). A lot of USA companies emphasize doing smart work, right work and maintaining high quality work to minimize customer complaints. We still have a lot of good and right companies in the USA. Not everything is going down the toilet.

I agree with you there MN_Runner. I don't believe that American manufacturing has gone down the toilet at all. In fact, I think that its better now than it has been in a long time.

Perception is definitely difficult to quantify but the very idea of "quality" is exclusively based on perception.

 

[farwest1889]

I buy all my craftsman sockets and wrenches on ebay in vintage lots. All usa made and cheaper then a new set. Ive been happy with all my purchases.

Sent from my GT-I9060C using Tapatalk

 

[jdlong]

I am just as much a Cman junkie as a HF junkie for DIY tools. Both make decent stuff and junk. You have to be selective. I agree Cman has better sales than HF for DIY tools. Especially with their bonus point program which get deducted from the sale prices I pay.

The tool bashing competition has a lot to do with production mechanics and DIY mechanics posting under the same roof I think. It makes no sense to me to outfit a box with 30k worth of SK and SO to service 5k personal beaters.

I do miss the USA Cman for DIY. For mechanic hand tools, it's all I bought back in the 90's and early 2000's without question. The quality was great. The prices weren't cheap but they were affordable. The tools still serve me well today. The China grade stuff they sell today is nowhere near as good but the prices are much cheaper when you figure inflation. You get what you pay for.

 

[hefnerconstructionlc]

The OP's was a great question and comment. The first response I feel was a very good two part explanation of why all the Craftsman bashing.

In my opinion it boils down to this, Craftsman is primarily being bashed because it is likely going away. At least as we have come to know the product line. Craftsman represented a value constant for the DIY consumer. It was fair prices for good hand tools. For power tools it represented fair prices for a fair/good non production quality power tools.

This is just like the constant value proposition of Snap On tools, they represent the pinnacle of hand tool performance and also the price to match. These are great for the professional segment.

Craftsman represented a great value for the overwhelming DIY segment. Now its gone and most everyone is upset because it feels like you are losing and old friend.

Anger usually follows the loss of something a person holds with fondness. Now that void is not really being replaced with a tool company with the breadth and scope of the Craftsman line and everyone is just bummed.

So rather than remember all the good things the Craftsman brand has done, we just sit around like grumpy old men and talk about all the shortcomings.

 

[PJNJ]

The OP's was a great question and comment. The first response I feel was a very good two part explanation of why all the Craftsman bashing.

In my opinion it boils down to this, Craftsman is primarily being bashed because it is likely going away. At least as we have come to know the product line. Craftsman represented a value constant for the DIY consumer. It was fair prices for good hand tools. For power tools it represented fair prices for a fair/good non production quality power tools.

This is just like the constant value proposition of Snap On tools, they represent the pinnacle of hand tool performance and also the price to match. These are great for the professional segment.

Craftsman represented a great value for the overwhelming DIY segment. Now its gone and most everyone is upset because it feels like you are losing and old friend.

Anger usually follows the loss of something a person holds with fondness. Now that void is not really being replaced with a tool company with the breadth and scope of the Craftsman line and everyone is just bummed.

So rather than remember all the good things the Craftsman brand has done, we just sit around like grumpy old men and talk about all the shortcomings.

The first original and interesting comment in this re-thread.

 

[zendriver]

Times have changed.

I always remember people, including myself using tools, to get work done, nothing else, really. They sat in the tool box until they were needed.

Now it an obsession, with using something that is not an example of absolute manufacturing perfection. Some are "tools snobs" that won't even turn a wrench that is not their favorite brand

Cman tools are now more shoddy and made in China. What isn't?

Mine seem to get the job done and the newer snap on tools I have feel more shoddy than the older ones.

People bash Sears, because they are not the same company as they were 30 (or 130) years ago, as if any company still is.

 

[Gmonkee]

If applying human psychology to a brand of tools id valid.

A board of directors and the decisions they made, how they instructed the buyers to act had to do with the a lot of factors.
Stuff like SK failing sent them to Stanley for a while. The market and sales factors......

They did what seemed good to survive at the time or what might meet other goals we were never told about outside the boardroom.

True, people don't like change. But life is a constant evolution from what was to what we can get when that stuff goes out of production. Unless we want the change like AC on econobox cars and 200000 mile tune up intervals.

We are impossible as a species.

 

[D-Vice]

I can understand professional mechanics who's income depends upon the ability to have someone come to the shop to replace a tool.

Honestly, in my dealership that argument is fairly invalid. If a tool breaks, we borrow from our team. I have guys borrowing from me, and I will borrow from them. We value our income and our tools, so needless to say, if a $20 set of shallow impacts from HF are pretty good, we will use them and yes I have them in my tool box at work. After the work day I go get a new one if it breaks (hasn't yet) Snap on guy comes once a week, I replaced a tool from japan faster than I've seen our snap on rep. $20 compared to $200 something, that is a lot of my income saved. I guess I am lucky to work in a shop where we will lend tools to another mechanic in need. Might be different in other shops.

But I too will still buy CM. Their pry bar set is actually great. And I have a set of their long polished combination wrenches. A really good deal for $45.00 on sale.

 

[FSrepair&fabrication]

I feel the same wayas the OP I really dont undestand the dislike for craftsman tools here. Theyve never claimed to be a professional grade tool just mid grade stuff for the part time hobby guy. Can they be used all day every day in a work setting? Absolutely. They might not be the nicest and most precise tools but if you know how to use them they will hold up. I have alot of old and some newer craftsman tools and they are half decent but they break a little easier than a snap on tool if you abuse them. Theyre so plentiful at yard sales and auctions you can get some decent tools for dirt cheap for the kid starting out or to make spare tool sets to keep in a vehicle. but you get what you pay for- you can buy a 200 piece tool kit at sears for $100. Take that hundred on the snap on truck and see where it gets you....

 

[Codejack]

That tool has not been abused; it has not been hammered on, had a cheater bar or another wrench used to extend its length. It just *****.

That wrench is one of the remnants of my first real tool kit that my Dad bought me when I was about 15, call it 1992. I bought a Craftsman socket set a year or two later, that I wound up throwing away, along with several of the wrenches that broke.

--------------------------------------------------

Now, is it possible that I came in during a particularly bad period in Cman's USA production? Absolutely.

Is it possible that I am just a big, strong guy who is unusually hard on tools? Again, sure.

Is it possible that their modern production at least has proper quality control standards so that, for example, you don't get 2 bad replacements for your original bad tool? I would hope so!

At best, though, they are just another name, without the guarantee that was the hallmark of the brand for so long, and it's been that way for at least 25 years, now.

If you need a home tool kit, and the price it right, buy it; don't pay more than you would for any other brand, like Kobalt or Husky, though.

 

[Rick B.]

I love my Craftsman tools and most of them have been with me since the mid 70's and they all still work.

I had my original Craftsman tool boxes since the late 70's mid 80's and they were great. Only reason I sold them was because I wanted bigger boxes. My current top box is probably an early 2000 model and I have no complaints.

I bought my Craftsman mig welder used about eight years ago. It does everything I expect it to and I have no complaints with its performance.

I got my Craftsman air impact gun and rolling tool cart for Christmas about five years ago and they both still work. In fact I mounted my blast cabinet on top of the cart so I could roll it out when needed.

In the last few years I've purchased new sets of deep and shallow sockets to replace those I lost or damaged due to carelessness and a complete set of Craftsman screwdrivers to replace my original ones that were beat to death because over the years I'd negligently misused them as pry bars, chisels, punches and who knows what else. If I'd taken better care of my tools I'd no doubt still have my originals.

But I'm not a tool snob. I also have some Snap-On, Husky, SK and a few HF gems. I feel bad that Craftsman quality seems to have suffered over the years but so has the quality of a lot of things. I figure that if I take care of them, unlike when I was young, they'll all continue to work just fine. I'm just sayin'.