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Craftsman bashing

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JazzBlueRT

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Yea, I have wasted my education; thanks for rubbing my nose in it :p




Tools come with manuals? :thumbup:

The manuals often come with hysterically bad translations. The roller seat I bought this weekend warns "Improper assembly can create hazards" and to "keep bystanders out of the assembly area."
 
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The Fall

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MetlMunchr has made some good observations. Some of those twenty-year long employees are still there (a few much longer), but they're rare. A couple of them know tools inside and out. Hiring knowledgeable people is no longer really desired, and at minimum wage plus commission (which is a moot point now seeing as they have no business) it's just a wasteland. I find myself fielding customers' questions when they're within earshot often (rebates, where tools are or aren't, etc.). The folks at Home Depot don't know the difference between 6 and 12 point sockets, at least when I've called and asked them. Sears really was unique in that price range. Then again, as others have mentioned Lampert really couldn't care less about revitalization.
 
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JazzBlueRT

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Well, for one thing, there are expectations:

People who buy (or bought) Sears and Craftsman products did so in the expectation that they were getting quality merchandise, and they were paying a premium.

People who buy Harbor Freight are not expecting anything. They are cheap tools, so if they break, they don't get too upset.

-------------------------------

Beyond that, though, is the fact that not all tools of either brand are created equal.

Generally speaking "China" is **** but "Taiwan" is pretty good.

Most of the Pittsburgh Pro line at Harbor Freight is Taiwanese; most of the Craftsman stuff I see is Chinese.

For the same price....

The price trend is the opposite, HF has been increasing in price and Craftsman has been decreasing in price. This is especially evident when you take coupons and SYW points into consideration.
 

The Fall

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I'd agree with that. The last few times I've walked out with tools for free or ridiculously cheap at Sears (points, discounts, etc.). Taiwanese 1/2" drive impact U-joint was $3.50, WF chisel holder was free...feels like the liquidation is just moving at a glacial pace.
 

PugetDude

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MetlMunchr has made some good observations. Some of those twenty-year long employees are still there (a few much longer), but they're rare. A couple of them know tools inside and out. Hiring knowledgeable people is no longer really desired, and at minimum wage plus commission (which is a moot point now seeing as they have no business) it's just a wasteland. I find myself fielding customers' questions when they're within earshot often (rebates, where tools are or aren't, etc.). The folks at Home Depot don't know the difference between 6 and 12 point sockets, at least when I've called and asked them. Sears really was unique in that price range. Then again, as others have mentioned Lampert really couldn't care less about revitalization.

Lampert needs Sears to fail so he can foreclose on the loans his hedge fund made to Sears Holdings on the basis of collateralized real estate. He's only keeping it afloat to get clear of the bankruptcy clawback period. He isn't going to jeopardize the billions he's getting from the sale of Craftsman, Diehard, and Kenmore when he finally gets done scavenging the rotting carcass.
 

The Fall

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Lampert needs Sears to fail so he can foreclose on the loans his hedge fund made to Sears Holdings on the basis of collateralized real estate. He's only keeping it afloat to get clear of the bankruptcy clawback period. He isn't going to jeopardize the billions he's getting from the sale of Craftsman, Diehard, and Kenmore when he finally gets done scavenging the rotting carcass.

As I understand it (as well as the business press), that's correct.
 

The Fall

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Craftsman was never the Harbor Freight, who markets the cheapest imported ****.

I never stepped foot into a Harbor Freight until two years ago (heard good things about the impacts and carts) because my coworkers at the cabinet shop hated on them so much. They were headquartered three miles from the cabinet shop in Camarillo, Ca. The guys at the shop only bought blankets from there and they clowned the place routinely; HF tools were essentially not allowed into the shop. Craftsman, circa '80s, was a different story. They weren't high-end, but CMan routers were occasionally in use and so were the wrenches for machinery repair. I agree. They carried a much better reputation.
 

CJM8515

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Craftsmen tools 30 years ago were good homeowner tools. Good price point and well made stuff. Then they began to cheap out..badly. The power tools are a damn joke, Id call them a step below black and decker and black and decker these days is homeowner cheapo junk. The mechanics tool are GARBAGE. At least before they smoothed out the rough SQUARED raised panels. Today they arent nearly as nice and I swear after breaking like 5 1/4 driver ratchets taking off battery terminals with a 10mm I gave up. My friend bought a BRAND NEW set and we broke both the 3/8 and 1/2 taking apart a freaking dirt bike. Mean while walmart bought stanley tools were my go to for my road box and I never actually broke anything (wore out ratchets).

Im sorry sears is gonna fail and spectacularly at that. There is literally NOTHING left in the damn store. Its an odd mishmash of clothes, tools, bedding, and electronics. Walmart killed them, amazon ruined them. They can never recover and they dont want to.
 

PugetDude

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I never stepped foot into a Harbor Freight until two years ago (heard good things about the impacts and carts) because my coworkers at the cabinet shop hated on them so much. They were headquartered three miles from the cabinet shop in Camarillo, Ca. The guys at the shop only bought blankets from there and they clowned the place routinely; HF tools were essentially not allowed into the shop. Craftsman, circa '80s, was a different story. They weren't high-end, but CMan routers were occasionally in use and so were the wrenches for machinery repair. I agree. They carried a much better reputation.

Peer pressure. It's why so many young mechanics are in hock up to their eyeballs to the guys selling tools out of shiny ice cream trucks.
 

The Fall

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Peer pressure. It's why so many young mechanics are in hock up to their eyeballs to the guys selling tools out of shiny ice cream trucks.

I think in the case of woodworking tools, HF really is garbage, and that's not even getting into hand tools like hand planes and chisels for fine woodworking where you really get what you pay for. We had an installer who had one of their belt sanders and it was a joke, especially seeing he was making $40 an hour and needed pro tools but was burned out and refused to pop for them. Another assembler we had for a brief period used one of their orbital palm sanders. Totally underwhelming and under powered. Those two exceptions aside, no one has HF stuff outside of blankets and glue scrapers.

HF Taiwanese impact sockets and tool carts? Yeah, they excel there at that price point and that can save a ton of money; they get the job down. I agree with you there; their mechanics tools are a different breed in certain areas. I've seen a few techs at other shops with either HF or Husky boxes. I've gone that route too. Saves a ton of money and stress when starting out.
 

6PTsocket

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Perception is reality.

Consider Costco. What other retailer would garner such a strong level of support from shoppers if they charged a membership fee and packaged their purchases in their cardboard waste?
Maybe it is offset by the prices, convenience and quality. If you are a frequent shopper and upgrade your membersip it ends up costing nothing or acually saving even more. They have the cheapest gas in the area and I get another 4% off for the first $7000. They are famous for their food samples. Members joke about going there for lunch. There is another thread right now on the great deal on Feit LED shop/garage lights at Costco.
After hurricane Sandy, Costco came through with generators when there was nothing to be had anywhere else. I can live with no bags and using the occasional cardboard box. They also have a very liberal return policy. No hassles. They often double manufacturer's warranty at no extra charge. BS does not work for long. If there was no real value, people would not keep up their membership. Wait, I have to take that back. You can screw Sears fans and they just come back for more. But there can't be that many because they are circling the drain.

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Infinia

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Craftsman were never "Good"...but they were "Good Enough"
never say never
Don't forget the name went on more than mechanics hand tools! Even in that class there were many example of outstanding gems to be found! You have to look and evaluate each item.., as an example take CMan garden hoses, lifetime warrantee and quality so good it didn't need it. Mine are almost 30 years old and I'm sure they took the place of half a dozen regular ones during that span. Back in the day, Craftsman tools were head and shoulders better than lots of stuff we had ready access to. In many cases that famous guarantee meant something unlike today!!.
 
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The Fall

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Costco also treats its employees well. Our door assembler's daughter has worked there for over a decade. They treat her well and she's making a livable wage.
 

pi_guy

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It does not matter the tool manufacturer with any example you will find a group that will bash it and another group that will swear by them.
There is less information exchanged and more derogatory comments about the tool brand.

There are several comments that are often not accepted, one being.

The quality of the job is defined by the quality of your tools.
&
One of the reasons I can bill at a higher rate is the range of tools in my crib and the selection of the better brands of tools.
 

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Don't get me wrong. I am a fan of Costco, have been a member for over 30 years and admire their business model.
The issue is different expectations. Many people walk into Sears expecting it to be like it used to be 20 years ago and are disappointed when it isn't. Others walk into Harbor Freight and are pleasantly surprised at the range and quality of the merchandise.
Meanwhile Costco charges $60 bucks to walk through the door and expects their customers to dispose of their shipping waste, yet people are thrilled to shop there. If Walmart did the same there would be rioting in the streets.

Different expectations.
 

-Brent-

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Sears basically had the world by the fuzz and let it fly by. Could have been Amazon.

...

They were Amazon, long before there was the Internet. They had retail by the balls with that catalog of theirs. In fact, the catalog ended a year before Amazon was born.

They had so many issues when Amazon was in its infancy, there's no way they could have stopped and corrected to have ever become what Amazon is. During the .com bubble Sears was flailing around to re-right the ship. In reaction to Borders and Blockbuster folding up, they said in a letter to investors that they were focusing on becoming more Internet/tech focused. Yeah, Amazon is the one that took them out (along with Netflix and the others that would become the streaming services we have, today). Still their app was terrible and their website was filled with issues. In that same letter they compared their new model to Apple, Amazon, Uber, etc. As well, they theorized exactly what Amazon is doing, now, but with an unhip name: MyGofer.com, haha.

Just reading their annual letters to investors (hindsight being what it is) you can see how misguided they were/are. They don't have the mindset of the companies that excel on the Internet.
 
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928'er

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Meanwhile Costco charges $60 bucks to walk through the door and expects their customers to dispose of their shipping waste, yet people are thrilled to shop there. If Walmart did the same there would be rioting in the streets.

They do. It's called Sam's Club....
 
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Slinger646

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Just for the sake of comparison, I bought a 1/2" flex head (44816 A-AE) today. Here is a comparison against my friends US made VVQ.

US on top, Chinese on the bottom. The finish and machining is far better, IMO
 

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sberry

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Craftsman has always been middle of the road. Generally always meeting a price point that they were better then cheaper stuff, but for more money there was always better out out there and that can be said for about every era of craftsman. One of their big failures in my book was always racing to the next gimmick instead of upgrading the base tools. Going back when the pro tools came out in the 90's, that should have just been the mainline and let the RP die then. Since craftsman never made anything, they could have always cherrypicked nice stuff and could have kept the offerings as a great bang for the buck.
This is really right. As the cheap brands came along they should have moved upscale to target SK instead of rushing to the bottom to compete with HF who had the sense to specialize in tools. They tried to compete with Kmart first then Walmart.
 

sberry

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Just for the sake of comparison, I bought a 1/2" flex head (44816 A-AE) today. Here is a comparison against my friends US made VVQ.

US on top, Chinese on the bottom. The finish and machining is far better, IMO

I finally traded my old flex for a new China, the China one I happened to get is way better than the old one was when it was new. The finish on the new is good.
I hit the local store a while back before it went under. Changed out my collection of broke stuff. The new was fine and the clerk helpful.
All but the 3/8 and 1/4 straight ratchet, still not usable. Its symptomatic of a problem, they made the same pos for decades. I got half a dozen trades, still don't work and we don't use them. The sockets and screwdrivers are good.
 

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Jtels85

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Just for the sake of comparison, I bought a 1/2" flex head (44816 A-AE) today. Here is a comparison against my friends US made VVQ.

US on top, Chinese on the bottom. The finish and machining is far better, IMO

I'm agree with you 100%. I have both the 3/8" and 1/2" flex head ratchets (A-AF I believe), and the China made ratchets are far better quality than their USA counterparts. The machining is smoother, even length on both sides and the ratchet mechanism works better. I've put the China 3/8" flex head through the paces and it's held up great. While I'm not a fan of anything Craftsman that is made overseas, some of the stuff is light years better quality than the USA versions. Torx sockets, hex sockets, impact sockets and ratchets come to mind. I own both versions and the China is far better quality.

Damn near all of the wrenches, ratcheting wrenches and pliers are considerably worse. My USA and China sockets have held up great, so I don't notice much of a difference. The only thing they seem to have got wrong was the wrenches. Lobster claw open ends, the metal has a tendency to spread... they're really bad.
 

DadsTools

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I was at Sears on Saturday and it didn't seem like they had the inventory they used to. Many items we're out of stock.

On a more positive note, everything in he store was on sale. There were banners everywhere.

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Yes, I've noticed that too. The last couple of times I've been to Sears, the tool dept looked like a graveyard with lots of empty shelves and pegboard spaces. Almost creepy.
 

openwheelracing88

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I don't understand the bashing of Sears around here. Sears is where it is today because of the same bashers. They are the first to exchange an abused ratchet, first to buy Chinese Dewalt at Home Depot, first to buy 1990 house instead of properly built 1920, first to buy China Charbroil instead of USA Weber and frequents Walmart to fill house with Chinese household goodies.

Then turn around on the internet to bash how Craftsman is no longer made in USA. Telling everyone they know to stop buying Craftsman. Cry me a river. Too many people collecting tools, not enough people doing work. If they actually worked on something, they would realize even a Chinese ratchet can get a job well done.
 
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ChaseDE

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my basic craftsman socket set is probably 15 years old and gets way more use than my huge boxes full of snapon. this is mainly because the snapon is all standard and the crafstman has metric but still, no gripes here.
 

Moose97

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I was organizing my tools this weekend and made some interesting observations. I have Craftsman wrenches bought in the mid 1990's (American made) as well as Craftsman bought in the last 2-3 years. It just so happens that I have some wrenches bought in the last couple of years from HF (for my travel box) and they all happened to be laying there together side by side. I really studied the 3 different types. The HF wrench felt significantly lighter. It also looked different. Not as solid looking (I know that doesn't make a ton of sense and is purely subjective). I'm not a HF basher by any means (Just more of a realist) but it was seemingly an inferior tool to the Craftsman. The differences in the Craftsman wrenches were seemingly more subtle. They weighed roughly the same but the finish was not quite the same.

I have used Craftsman tools my whole life without issue. I've bought several HF tools in the last decade and by and large have no complaints from those either. I am a home shop guy. They meet my needs at the price I can pay.

Again, I have never understood why someone has an opinion about what I spend my money on or have in my toolbox. If it works for you that's great.
 

DadsTools

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My particular perspective: First, I'm an old timer who remembers the 'good old days'. Second, I buy, sell and collect vintage hand tools, so I've seen a wide range of product from various brands and times. Third, my Dad was an aircraft mechanic at the Phila. Naval Yard for 30 years, serviced the reconnaissance planes on the fields of France during WW2, and worked at putting up the 'moth ball fleet' afterward that last I remembered was still docked in endless rows of dead ships along the Delaware River. He knew tools, worked in a facility with far more mechanics than most auto shops, and saw all kinds of brands being used. He had very strong opinions about tools. Finally, we were always a Sears family. My Dad went to Sears first to buy anything, and I followed suit in many ways even to today. Even my single credit card is a Sears. So there's no unwarranted anti-Sears prejudice in what I'm about to opine....

As an old-timer, I feel for younger people today who are virtually forced to shop, discuss, compare and buy Chiwan tools. can't imagine how this would feel if I was still wrenching and had to do the same with my memory of the way things were as a reference point.

As a Sears patron, I noticed the quality of many items decline across the board. I'd say close to the last twenty years, every major item I purchased had to be returned defective. This includes but not limited to: air compressor, refrigerator, air conditioner, large microwave oven, even a mattress. It got so we'd tell the salesman to make sure they grab the second item back on the shelf because the first is sure to be bad. The compressor leaked oil--the salesman said, "that's impossible, there's no oil it." We just don't buy these big at Sears anymore. Still buy clothes and household though. So some of the Sears-bashing is indeed justified regarding quality, IMO.

As an old timer, I agree with the OP about the emotional aspect of the Sears-bashing, but feel it goes deeper. In a changing world, some things stay the same, things you can trust in and depend on no matter what. In this case, it was like a faithful spouse through thick and thin. Then suddenly, you discover she's been cheating on you. That's the very same feeling I felt about my beloved Sears when I first perused the tool shelves to find everything was made in Chiwan. I felt VIOLATED! Younger folks might not feel this cause they grew up in a different world/time. When you're violated, you feel hurt and angry. Yeah, when you have that kind of family tradition of faithfulness with a company, the violation is real and tangible. To discover that your beloved, the last holdout in a world of deteriorating standards, has become a *****--it hurts. So I sympathize with Craftsman bashers on this level--it's angrily striking back at the offender. And it's real--just like all the other kinds of human choices made on feelings. If feelings weren't real, there'd be no people--choosing mates and bearing children is mostly about acting on feelings.

As a collector, there is a noticeable decline in fit, feel, & finish in Craftsman hand tools over the years. I'm talking about the 'hard' tools like wrenches, sockets & ratchets. The decline seemed to take hold around the end of the EASCO -V- era, early 1980s. The best by far are the =V= marked Moore Drop Forging versions from 1946-1968. EASCO bouhgt Moore, so that's why the quality was still pretty good even through the -V- marked. Deterioration seems to have started sometime within the -VV- mark, and really took hold with the -VA- ("A" being inverted V). The difference in the later ones with the darker chrome is very noticeable (who knows what that is, because I haven't seen this dark chrome on anyone else's tools)--they don't even sound the same when you clank them together. It's real, and those who don't see it either don't know or are in denial, IMO. Will they still turn a nut? Sure.

Lastly, my Dad abhorred Craftsman ratchets, wrenches and screwdrivers. Now mind you, he was commenting on a period of time when the best post-war =v= tools were being made. He said the wrenches didn't fit well, and the open end fork would spread out under pressure. he said the ratchets would fail too frequently and the screwdriver tips would knurl too easily. Never really talked about any of the other CM tools but for him that was enough. And he was a SEARS man through and through! So no prejudice here. And he worked alongside many mechanics with so he saw what all kinds of brands did. He used to tell me, "What good is a guarantee when you've crawled 40 feet up into a bomber wing on your belly and your ratchet slips or your wrench rounds a nut?" He was right, you know. Of course, he also had exposure to federal spec grade contract tools--he liked Bonney, Proto, P&C, the old Thorsen (and their Giller derivatives), and the like. For budget tools he bought contract Lectrolite--those recessed handled ones made in the same factory as the S-K of its time. Oh, he liked Snap-On too. For screwdrivers, he had these grey-handled Navy ones that you could use for chisels, you just can't knurl the tips on them (must be those $200 tools you here about the government buying).

Can the Chinese make good tools? I'm sure of it. But I think it's often like, "We make these, but silly round-eyes want those instead." Look what war machines Japan made in WW2--tell me they couldn't make good tools???? But there's something fundamentally repulsed in my guts--my heart of hearts--to think about buying Chiwan product for my first-line tools. The only wrenches, sockets or ratchets I broke in my time were imported junk tools, but I never used/abused my tools hard enough to ever break one of my first-line tools. Would craftsman been just fine for me? Probably. But that doesn't mean they were great tools, nor negate either my Dad's real-world experiences with them or my collector's observations. To honor him, I have no Craftsman tools in my boxes or chest.

OK. I got it off my chest (so to speak).

As for HF, few would know as I do about the roots of that company and how they first operated as a tool company. Almost went to work with them back in the late 1970s. You'd be surprised. Perhaps I'll post a thread on it in the near future.
 

Codejack

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As a Sears patron, I noticed the quality of many items decline across the board. I'd say close to the last twenty years, every major item I purchased had to be returned defective. This includes but not limited to: air compressor, refrigerator, air conditioner, large microwave oven, even a mattress. It got so we'd tell the salesman to make sure they grab the second item back on the shelf because the first is sure to be bad. The compressor leaked oil--the salesman said, "that's impossible, there's no oil it." We just don't buy these big at Sears anymore. Still buy clothes and household though. So some of the Sears-bashing is indeed justified regarding quality, IMO.

My Dad is still trying to hang on to the Sears appreciation, but he tried to buy me a Craftsman rolling toolbox a few years ago...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005Y1VJXC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

And I literally took it back 2 days later because it was broken. "Do you want to go get a replacement off the shelf?" "....not really, no."

Some of their stuff is fine, I'm sure of it; the problem is not knowing....


As a collector, there is a noticeable decline in fit, feel, & finish in Craftsman hand tools over the years. I'm talking about the 'hard' tools like wrenches, sockets & ratchets. The decline seemed to take hold around the end of the EASCO -V- era, early 1980s. The best by far are the =V= marked Moore Drop Forging versions from 1946-1968. EASCO bouhgt Moore, so that's why the quality was still pretty good even through the -V- marked. Deterioration seems to have started sometime within the -VV- mark, and really took hold with the -VA- ("A" being inverted V).

Your experience tallies up exactly with my own. Here's one of my old Cman wrenches:

835967459cf8c90e09ad40617b57aa1d.jpg


cbebc667154bb9e592b484e3d9c00965.jpg


VA series. If you look closely, you can see that those marks go all the way across; they aren't just on the edges, so it wasn't a "2 wrench trick" or anything like that. I insist that I didn't abuse it, although others insist that I did; I'm a big guy, though, so "use" and "abuse" are pretty close together...

The socket set from that era that I bought I wound up throwing away, and several of the wrenches were broken and discarded.


"What good is a guarantee when you've crawled 40 feet up into a bomber wing on your belly and your ratchet slips or your wrench rounds a nut?"

Or even just in the middle of a job? That's where I always wound up; with my car up on jacks, half taken apart, and a socket breaks. Well, I can just drive to- wait, no, I can't.


there's something fundamentally repulsed in my guts--my heart of hearts--to think about buying Chiwan product for my first-line tools.

My Dad felt the same way about Japanese cars, back in the 1980s. Then my brother blew up a Ford straight 6. Twice. So Dad bought him a Honda, and he "forgot" to change the oil for 50,000 miles. It went another 100,000 miles after that.

Dad still drives a Ford truck, but Mom drives a new Honda Accord :)


As for HF, few would know as I do about the roots of that company and how they first operated as a tool company. Almost went to work with them back in the late 1970s. You'd be surprised. Perhaps I'll post a thread on it in the near future.

We'd love to hear it!
 

PFSard

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I don't understand the bashing of Sears around here. Sears is where it is today because of the same bashers. They are the first to exchange an abused ratchet, first to buy Chinese Dewalt at Home Depot, first to buy 1990 house instead of properly built 1920, first to buy China Charbroil instead of USA Weber and frequents Walmart to fill house with Chinese household goodies.

Then turn around on the internet to bash how Craftsman is no longer made in USA. Telling everyone they know to stop buying Craftsman. Cry me a river. Too many people collecting tools, not enough people doing work. If they actually worked on something, they would realize even a Chinese ratchet can get a job well done.

I'm not a Sears basher. Nor a Craftsman basher. I have plenty of CM tools that I bought in the late 70s and early 80s. I've warrantied very few, as I've had few problems with them.

Sears created the warranty for Craftsman tools back in the 1920s. Probably to try to ensure that people would buy CM tools. The management at that time made the decision. I'm sure it was instrumental in the expansion of Sears.

I won't buy appliances from Sears because of all the problems I had with the ones I bought. Mainly in getting parts. Another story.

U.S. consumers buy goods and services from all over the world. And the R.O.W. buys U.S. exports and services. China is an strong presence in the world today. After the failure of its economic policies from 50 years ago (more or less), China adjusted and is expanding its footprint in world trade. Many articles and books written on this.

Sears screwed up. I'm sure there are plenty of studies done on why Sears fell into the downward spiral to the extreme of its current Cash Flow problem. It's not the bashers that created this issue. More likely than not, history will show that Sears failed to deal in a reasonable manner with the development of technology and the internet, in particular.

Upcoming businesses are eating Sears' lunch. Sears had a great competitive advantage, but failed to adjust to changing economic circumstances.
 

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I'm not a Sears basher. Nor a Craftsman basher. I have plenty of CM tools that I bought in the late 70s and early 80s. I've warrantied very few, as I've had few problems with them.

Sears created the warranty for Craftsman tools back in the 1920s. Probably to try to ensure that people would buy CM tools. The management at that time made the decision. I'm sure it was instrumental in the expansion of Sears.

I won't buy appliances from Sears because of all the problems I had with the ones I bought. Mainly in getting parts. Another story.

U.S. consumers buy goods and services from all over the world. And the R.O.W. buys U.S. exports and services. China is an strong presence in the world today. After the failure of its economic policies from 50 years ago (more or less), China adjusted and is expanding its footprint in world trade. Many articles and books written on this.

Sears screwed up. I'm sure there are plenty of studies done on why Sears fell into the downward spiral to the extreme of its current Cash Flow problem. It's not the bashers that created this issue. More likely than not, history will show that Sears failed to deal in a reasonable manner with the development of technology and the internet, in particular.

Upcoming businesses are eating Sears' lunch. Sears had a great competitive advantage, but failed to adjust to changing economic circumstances.

Sears retail presence is actually an impediment to Eddie Lampert's real estate ambitions. He views them as squatters, but he can't kick them out because he needs to show occupancy to collateralize the properties. He's confiscated and is selling off their prized posssesions (Kenmore, Craftsman, DieHard). When the clawback period on these asset sales is over, Sears is toast.
 

DadsTools

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Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
1,852
My Dad is still trying to hang on to the Sears appreciation, but he tried to buy me a Craftsman rolling toolbox a few years ago...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005Y1VJXC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

And I literally took it back 2 days later because it was broken. "Do you want to go get a replacement off the shelf?" "....not really, no."

Some of their stuff is fine, I'm sure of it; the problem is not knowing....




Your experience tallies up exactly with my own. Here's one of my old Cman wrenches:

835967459cf8c90e09ad40617b57aa1d.jpg


cbebc667154bb9e592b484e3d9c00965.jpg


VA series. If you look closely, you can see that those marks go all the way across; they aren't just on the edges, so it wasn't a "2 wrench trick" or anything like that. I insist that I didn't abuse it, although others insist that I did; I'm a big guy, though, so "use" and "abuse" are pretty close together...

The socket set from that era that I bought I wound up throwing away, and several of the wrenches were broken and discarded.




Or even just in the middle of a job? That's where I always wound up; with my car up on jacks, half taken apart, and a socket breaks. Well, I can just drive to- wait, no, I can't.




My Dad felt the same way about Japanese cars, back in the 1980s. Then my brother blew up a Ford straight 6. Twice. So Dad bought him a Honda, and he "forgot" to change the oil for 50,000 miles. It went another 100,000 miles after that.

Dad still drives a Ford truck, but Mom drives a new Honda Accord :)




We'd love to hear it!
Yep, that wrench is a -VA- all right. Imagine that?

I buy and sell used USA Craftsman all the time. People want 'em. Probably shouldn't be dissing them since for me it's kind of sawing off the branch you're sitting on. I laugh at the pawn shops when they charge you more for a Craftsmen while leaving stuff like the Wright, New Britain, Williams and Proto tools in the bargain bins. They don't have a clue as to what a good tool really is. They just know that people clamor for the Craftsman, and it's a widely recognized brand, so they charge more. From their perspective, Craftsman ARE the best!

I see in these threads where so many people say they're not faithful to any particular tool brand or supplier. I get it. That's a characteristic of the world we live in on both sides of the issue. To stay faithful to a brand or supplier, that supplier must stay faithful to its customers. They just don't anymore. As for the Chiwan stuff, regardless to how well they could potentially make a tool, their place in today's stores was--and still is--earned on one fundamental factor. Price. They wouldn't be here if they weren't cheap. And you can't make top-of-the-line tools at the cheapest price point you can sell. Not even the Chinese can do that.

I echo an observation by another poster in this thread. It's our fault. It started in earnest in the 1960s when we were flooded with cheap imported Japanese products (if you go back even farther, you could probably blame MacArthur and the Japanese occupation "Don't make guns anymore--make products. We'll buy them, and we'll even help you tool up and find the material supplies you need for next to nothing.") We bellyached about loss of American jobs out of one side of our mouths while we filled our bellies with cheap imported goods, and watched one grand American company after another go the way of the dodo. When I was in tech, I used to tell folks complaining about quality, poor documentation and customer support in India, "Go home. Go into your bathroom. Turn on the light and look in the mirror. Blame that guy." In the marketplace, we vote with our dollars. Who can blame a company for giving us what we have demonstrated continually as being precisely what we want?

The Japanese cars were a different matter. They were actually making BETTER product than their American counterparts. That's a whole different ball game, and shame on us. We found ourselves having to rise to their automobile standards. But I don't think we can say the same about hand tools--here, we find ourselves sinking down to their level.

Harbor Freight found a vulnerability in the US market and they took advantage of it. The office supply superstores did the same thing when they came on the scene. Up to them, stationers were the office suppliers charging list price for everything and giving their best customers a 10% discount while making themselves rich. Then the Staples and Office Max stores appeared, and the mom-and-pop stationers dropped like flies. They then began to have established furniture brands make the cheapest thing they could under contract (as long as it had the established mfr brand on it), and proved what these mfrs could never have previously imagined--that folks will actually buy absolute junk, like it, and come back for more. So these mfrs started cheaping down their regular lines too. In the early 1960s, the American company NOMA was the largest Christmas light manufacturer in the world. Then came the flood of Japanese imports. In just a few short years (1968), NOMA went bankrupt, and sold its name off to the highest bidder. On and on and on....all thanks to the American consumer.

I'll put up that post on HF, but need to find the right thread or start a new one.
 

Gmonkee

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Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
2,696
If you were an active tool user and buyer in the homeowner class or even pro shop before the mid 80's the CM tools were decent.

Mid 80's to early 90's active tool buyers had a less inspiring period to get CM tools. Then after that the crapshoot period began.

There is some good among the lot but mostly not. How can I advise a young guy now that wants his own brand new shiny tools to start his carreer to buy CM?

He doesn't want my cast offs nor has the experience to choose as well as an old hand could. Now toss a limited budget in the mix.

The Searsicide cycle is helping him not even try there like dad could. Because the stores are gone.

HF is everywhere however and that has all he thinks he needs at juicy low prices so he can fill the tool list faster.

I see the appeal because in 2006 all my good tools fit in a fanny pack. And every week I tried to better my capability.
The used market saved me but they were all resold later when I knew what I really wanted. And still use today. Sets of wrenches for the ergonomic factor. Not always brand but some of that goes in too.

My hope is Stanley is a good host of the name and gets it back to pride. They have the ability to do it too.
We are in a transition period now but sooner or later we shall see results. Just hang tight while the lawyers sew up the details.
 

Codejack

Banned
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
838
Location
Chattanooga, TN
It started in earnest in the 1960s when we were flooded with cheap imported Japanese products (if you go back even farther, you could probably blame MacArthur and the Japanese occupation "Don't make guns anymore--make products. We'll buy them, and we'll even help you tool up and find the material supplies you need for next to nothing.") We bellyached about loss of American jobs out of one side of our mouths while we filled our bellies with cheap imported goods, and watched one grand American company after another go the way of the dodo. When I was in tech, I used to tell folks complaining about quality, poor documentation and customer support in India, "Go home. Go into your bathroom. Turn on the light and look in the mirror. Blame that guy." In the marketplace, we vote with our dollars. Who can blame a company for giving us what we have demonstrated continually as being precisely what we want?

It was when everything became "consumer-oriented," and everyone forgot that the only reason consumers had money to buy stuff with was because they had jobs.

It's not really fair to lay it all on one generation, but it really seems like the Baby Boomers got used to getting everything their way as children, and when they grew up, they still wanted it their way: Everything for the price of nothing....

And they got it, for a while, until the cycle went around a few times and the unintended consequences kicked in.
 

Gmonkee

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Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
2,696
I have trouble with blaming only one generation when just about all are and were the same.

Among my antique wrenches I will find 20 economy versions to one flagship line model. This after 80 years of the worst being used up and tossed off for scrap.
The street market on sunday was more like 100 to 1 common to quality with very little of the worst used up. But that will happen as they sell first.

I bet my grandchildren see the ratio go to what I see for my grandfather's tools.

For all the changes we demand and cause how is it we remain the same?
 

Codejack

Banned
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Jul 21, 2017
Messages
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Location
Chattanooga, TN
I have trouble with blaming only one generation when just about all are and were the same.

Well, I noted that it wasn't fair, but it does seem like the BB generation has an outsized effect that has shifted focus as they have aged, and kind of dragged the rest of us along with them.
 

-Brent-

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Dec 23, 2009
Messages
4,709
Location
Utah
I have a difficult time accepting the blame of society for Sears.

At one point Sears was being sued for mis-representing tools as being "Made in U.S.A." but with either many parts being made elsewhere or not at all but cleverly skirting the rules. They refused to say, under oath, how many C-man tools were made in America. And, subsequently, pulled tools from the shelves and blacked out anything that said Made in America. However, a judge tossed it out because, at the time, there was an estimated 40 million people owning C-man tools and a suit of that size would be "a nightmare to manage."

Among many other class action law suits (I know of 3 off the top of my head but there have been many more), Sears was sued for misleading and withholding information from shareholders about the profitability (or lack thereof) of its credit card unit at the time. Sears settled.

These are just two examples, of many. Sears did this to themselves. It's easy to lose customer loyalty when your business is run as such.
 

hangfirew8

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Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
879
Location
Central Maryland
Haters got hate. Craftsman bashing is the GJ version of the black-clad anarchists breaking windows on May Day. They're mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore, but have a hard time articulating exactly what "it" is.

I dunno, I've heard a lot of articulate Sears bashing here. Lots of good reasons.

I've got dozens of Sears stories, have shared a few already, no more. I got over Sears years ago and moved on. Lately I've picked up some real bargains due to SYW: Nupla deadblow hammers, thread reformers, bunch of Lisle stuff, etc. all Craftsman branded USA except for a German Knipex Pliers Wrench and a Florida Pneumatic air drill made in Taiwan. All crazy-good deals, half off or more. But I'm done. And soon, so will be Sears.

I still think we need a sub-forum to **** up all the Sears angst. Move this thread there, too.
 
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