Craftsman bashing

[JazzBlueRT]

Oh, I used to break Thorsen sockets like they were walnuts.

I haven't seen or heard of Thorsen since I left the USAF back in 91.

 

[unslow1]

I haven't seen or heard of Thorsen since I left the USAF back in 91.

They were stocked by Advance Auto until a few years ago.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

They were stocked by Advance Auto until a few years ago.

I wonder if the Thorsen tools used in the USAF were part of the local purchase initiative at the time. Both Thorsen and Easco were all over the place on base at the time.

 

[sberry]

Easco was used a lot in industry, no one stole a lot of it and it was somewhat disposable.

 

[Infinia]

I wonder if the Thorsen tools used in the USAF were part of the local purchase initiative at the time. Both Thorsen and Easco were all over the place on base at the time.

FWIW last time I checked the 'Thorsen name was being used for low tier goods.
People that say theyve wrecked numerous sockets of xyz brand, i'd take with a very big grain of salt. Id say in the end it becomes a question of their misapplication. Devils in the details.
Ive never understood all the hate for certain brands.. Dig deep and some little incident will bring it into psychological focus.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

To be fair, HF doesn't sell the variety of things that Sears does.

Still, when the competition has you beat on price, quality and customer service, you can only coast on reputation for so long.

Not only that, but during November, Sears/Kmart has 100% points back on a lot of everyday products. That means you can go into Kmart, buy a years worth of toilet paper and get a few hundred dollars worth of tools for free.

I do not believe that HF has Sears beat on price or quality. HF customer service is spotty. Some places it is excellent and others are horrendous. I also had some pushback on returning a bar clamp at HF recently.

I also think HF is getting itself in trouble by trying to go to far upscale. It will take a lot to shake the JC Whitney of tools perception away from HF.

Maybe wishful thinking, but it would be nice if Stanley turned Craftsman around, brought manufacturing back to the USA and made a deal to get them into every HF as their sole "made in the USA" brand.

 

[dacuda]

my first socket set and air compressor was a craftsman over 30 yrs ago but i stopped buying craftsman tools due to poor quality and selective lifetime replacement of certain tools.it seemed like when i broke one of the lifetime replacement tools, i had to argue to get it replaced.there are so many brands to choose from that i find even the cheapest of sockets get the job done regardless of the brand.dont get me wrong ,i use tools for a living and have some of the best but i am not loyal to any particular brand and buy certain brands for certain tasks.i still have a portable craftsman compressor that still runs good and an array of wrenches and sockets but when i need a new replacement i will look elsewhere.as far as the chrysler quality debate that was thrown into the mix is all i can say is i put 200K miles on my dodge dakota before buying another dodge(challenger) and found quality and reliability very good.im a mopar or nocar kinda guy.

 

[Jaysreal]

Maybe wishful thinking, but it would be nice if Stanley turned Craftsman around, brought manufacturing back to the USA and made a deal to get them into every HF as their sole "made in the USA" brand.

http://ir.stanleyblackanddecker.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=114416&p=irol-presentations
Scroll down to the 1/5/17 presentation, In there it says Stanley IS bringing Craftsman back to USA.

Key points in it are:

Stanley has to give Sears royalty money for 15 years. (based on sales)

Stanley has no obligation to supply Sears with tools.

Stanley has only purchased the rights to produce and sell Craftsman outside of Sears retail.

Sears still has the right to source and sell Craftsman in their own store.

As for selling Craftsman in HF, I don't know about that one. Stanley is paying close to 1 billion for this deal. I'd be VERY hesitant to associate my new Craftsman with the likes of HF, but hey you never know what a CEO has cooked up. Honestly were I part of it I would wait Maybe 5 yrs to make any moves just to see if/when Sears tanks and release my fresh USA Craftsman after. If nothing else it reduces the amount of years royalties have to be paid.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[James-W]

I have some old Craftsman hand tools, wrenches, sockets, etc. I like them, they have worked well over the years. I have looked at the new stuff they have and quite frankly, they just seem like they are not as good as the old stuff. Obviously, I don't have any proof of that, it is just my observation.

 

[TomB19]

I was at Sears on Saturday and it didn't seem like they had the inventory they used to. Many items we're out of stock.

On a more positive note, everything in he store was on sale. There were banners everywhere.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[WildwoodChuck]

I went to Evansville IN and man were they stocked, stuff I had never seen before. I asked the clerk he said they were in the top 200 stores and got a lot more tools than most stores. The rest of the mall was dead as can be but Sears was stocked in every department the way I remember 20 years ago.

 

[nbpt100]

This topic has sure generated a lot of replies.. I am now #101.

It appears it depends when you bought your Cman tools as the quality has gone up and down over time. Most of mine have been purchased in the 80's and I feel the quality is fine. The only things I have broken have been 1/4 and 3/8 drive ratchets and a few screw drivers. The screw drivers are still made in USA. I have never had an issue with replacement. I know people have had issues and I am sorry to hear about them.

I had a sear employee tell me they are trying to get Cman tools in to HomeDepot, Lowes and Best Buy. If they honor the Lifetime Warrantee with integrity and have a good selection on hand I am all for that. But I would find it strainge that they would want a competitor for their House Brand of tools.....namely Huskey and Kobolt. It would be a first for Best Buy.

Let's hope Stanley brings the Cman tool brand back to the good ol USA and improves the quality and service.

 

[Rileysan]

I grew up on Craftsman. In my teens and 20s, I rebuilt engines, transmissions, and just about every wearable part on my 69 Mustang with Craftsman tools. They did the job and did it well.

When I officially started turning wrenches for a living about 20 years ago, I got into Snap-on, et al. I love the truck tool brands but just because they are far superior to Craftsman, doesn't mean Craftsman is a bad product. I hate that most of their tools are made in China, but the still get the job done.

Most of my original Craftsman tools have been divided up and placed in hand carry boxes I keep in my vehicles. After nearly 30 years, I have no reason to complain as they have more than paid for themselves.

Now I collect vintage Craftsman tools. Not because I think they were the best or because I think they will appreciate in value, but because they represented a by-gone era in America where hard working men could afford to bring home good American-made tools and be the jacks-of-all-trades we were meant to be. Because I hope to pass them on to my family when I'm too old to use them.

Perhaps one day, they will recapture the reputation of the past. I have my doubts, but I'm trying to be optimistic!

Brian

 

[JazzBlueRT]

This topic has sure generated a lot of replies.. I am now #101.

It appears it depends when you bought your Cman tools as the quality has gone up and down over time. Most of mine have been purchased in the 80's and I feel the quality is fine. The only things I have broken have been 1/4 and 3/8 drive ratchets and a few screw drivers. The screw drivers are still made in USA. I have never had an issue with replacement. I know people have had issues and I am sorry to hear about them.

I had a sear employee tell me they are trying to get Cman tools in to HomeDepot, Lowes and Best Buy. If they honor the Lifetime Warrantee with integrity and have a good selection on hand I am all for that. But I would find it strainge that they would want a competitor for their House Brand of tools.....namely Huskey and Kobolt. It would be a first for Best Buy.

Let's hope Stanley brings the Cman tool brand back to the good ol USA and improves the quality and service.

Interesting, I just got an email from Best Buy about their new Garage feature:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/home/garage/pcmcat1491248908587.c?id=pcmcat1491248908587

 

[JazzBlueRT]

http://ir.stanleyblackanddecker.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=114416&p=irol-presentations
Scroll down to the 1/5/17 presentation, In there it says Stanley IS bringing Craftsman back to USA.

Key points in it are:

Stanley has to give Sears royalty money for 15 years. (based on sales)

Stanley has no obligation to supply Sears with tools.

Stanley has only purchased the rights to produce and sell Craftsman outside of Sears retail.

Sears still has the right to source and sell Craftsman in their own store.

As for selling Craftsman in HF, I don't know about that one. Stanley is paying close to 1 billion for this deal. I'd be VERY hesitant to associate my new Craftsman with the likes of HF, but hey you never know what a CEO has cooked up. Honestly were I part of it I would wait Maybe 5 yrs to make any moves just to see if/when Sears tanks and release my fresh USA Craftsman after. If nothing else it reduces the amount of years royalties have to be paid.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

HF used to sell name brand tools, mostly refurbs and closeouts. Not sure if that is a possibility with their focus on in house brands.

Craftsman as a Stanley (manufacturer) owned brand will have trouble getting into places where they would compete against house brands. The "made in the USA" angle could revive the Craftsman brand and bring HF a whole new range of customers as it overcomes the cheap Chinese tools image.

I would buy them from HF if they were USA made and if they were reasonably priced.

Sears is toast, no retailer has ever come back from extensive store cutting.

 

[Rarified27]

Maybe wishful thinking, but it would be nice if Stanley turned Craftsman around, brought manufacturing back to the USA and made a deal to get them into every HF as their sole "made in the USA" brand.

This would be something.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[7avalon7]

Maybe wishful thinking, but it would be nice if Stanley turned Craftsman around, brought manufacturing back to the USA and made a deal to get them into every HF as their sole "made in the USA" brand.

It is all about supply and demand. Bringing manufacturing back to US (or make anything in the US) is all good in theory IF you can actually sell the product. Little/no demand then that company will die a painful death quickly.

Speaking in general here, the reality is that demand for US made (better) tools < demand for Chinese or Taiwan (cheaper) tools. US made tools will have to compete for space in HF store. I bet HF can make more money from selling cheaper tools, so no reason for HF to sell made in USA brand.

 

[trainer]

My local sears store announced they are closing and the next nearest one is 200 miles away, so I went to get a cracked socket replaced last week.

It was from a set I bought 39 years ago, the broaching was off-centre and it finally cracked.

They had no open stock left, so they couldn't replace it on the spot.

interestingly, the equivalent set (3/8 deep imperial, sockets only) was selling for the exact same price I paid in 1978.... regular price printed on the packaging with no markdowns.

 

[Codejack]

The other thing is, "Made in USA" or not, it needs to be quality, and COO does not necessarily imply anything of the sort.

Stanley made Craftsman back in the 80s, too.

 

[indy2door]

That tool has not been abused; it has not been hammered on, had a cheater bar or another wrench used to extend its length. It just *****.

That wrench is one of the remnants of my first real tool kit that my Dad bought me when I was about 15, call it 1992. I bought a Craftsman socket set a year or two later, that I wound up throwing away, along with several of the wrenches that broke.

--------------------------------------------------

Now, is it possible that I came in during a particularly bad period in Cman's USA production? Absolutely.

Is it possible that I am just a big, strong guy who is unusually hard on tools? Again, sure.

Is it possible that their modern production at least has proper quality control standards so that, for example, you don't get 2 bad replacements for your original bad tool? I would hope so!

At best, though, they are just another name, without the guarantee that was the hallmark of the brand for so long, and it's been that way for at least 25 years, now.

If you need a home tool kit, and the price it right, buy it; don't pay more than you would for any other brand, like Kobalt or Husky, though.

I'd say this wrench has been abused.

 

[metlmunchr]

For years, Sears' hand tools had minimal to no competition in their same price range.

Home Depot and similar big box stores didn't exist.

Lowe's existed, but as a fairly typical building supply store that also sold appliances. Their tool selection was typical of building supply stores. Hammers, saws, squares, levels, construction related power tools, etc.

Most independent hardware stores sold either pure junk hand tools at the Globemaster level, or they sold mid-quality tools similar to Sears but at much higher prices.

NAPA stores were about the only auto parts houses that carried a full line of hand tools. New Britain was their brand, and it was on par with Williams, Wright, and similar brands. Also priced substantially higher than Sears, and never at "sale" prices. Other parts houses often stocked some specialty service tools, but no full line of hand tools.

The industrial supply houses generally had Wright, Armstrong, Williams, Proto, S-K, and similar high quality brands. Nothing to compete with Sears on a price basis.

In the limited times I was ever in one of their stores, Montgomery Ward appeared to have similar tool quality and prices to those of Sears. Their welders were made by Century, same as Sears' welders. I suspect many of their stationary tools such as drill presses and table saws were also manufactured by some of the same people that built those tools for Sears. I'd also imagine, if Ward had survived to today, they'd be sourcing tools from China as often as Sears does.

Sears had a real advantage for years in that they had many long term employees. I remember a couple guys who worked in the tool dept here for at least 20 years. You could ask either of them for whatever you needed, and they could tell you instantly where to find it. That all changed when Sears went to all part time help.

Last time I bought a tool at Sears, it was a 7mm flex socket a couple years ago. Asked the kid who took the Sears job rather than one at McDonalds where I'd find flex sockets. Got a HUH!! and a look as if I'd asked for a spare wing for the space shuttle. Found it myself, good quality and about 7 bucks which was fine. I wasn't there to price shop. But, while the employee knew nothing about the stuff he was supposedly there to sell, he knew the sales pitch for trying to get me to sign up for a Sears credit card by heart. I assume they get a bonus for snagging card victims, so that's worth learning.

All that said, Sears still has fairly good hand tools at okay prices. But, I'd put anything in HF's Taiwan made Pittsburgh Pro line of wrenches and sockets up against any similar tool Sears sells today. In my experience, the HF tool will win every time. Better finish, better dimensional control on wrench and socket opening sizes, and a better price.

In any case, tools are less than 1% of Sears' problems today. The core problem is Eddie Lampert, whose obvious goal is to put the company out of business so he can sell off the real estate 'cause that's where the real value is in Sears.

 

[cliftonbros89]

I personally think the quality of Craftsman has declined. The wrenches and ratchets of my dad's from the late 70's, early 80's are all still decent tools. They're not terrible.

However, when I started buying my own tools I started buying Craftsman (late U.S. made) too. It's what my dad used, it was affordable. However, I've had multiple issues. I've never improperly used any of my tools either. I've always used them as they were intended to be used. However, I've gone through several breaker bars, several ratchets, and several screwdrivers. Between my father and I, I don't recall either of us having any luck with the Craftsman bit sockets, hex, torx or flat tip. I've bought socket sets that ended up containing sockets that weren't made right, I'm not talking about flaking chrome or a flaw in the shine of the chrome either. I'm not one of those guys. I'm talking about legitimate problems with the socket not fitting the fastener.

After these multiple issues I started looking at different brands. I have a lot of different brands. However, 2 that for sure stand out are SK and Snap On. I had to warranty some ratchet repair kits and a socket from my dad's old SK stuff, but they're customer service is great. I've had zero issues with my new stuff. When I had a SO guy he was great too. Since then I've only had to warranty 2 SO bit sockets and a thread tap. Customer service for them was great. Had what I needed in less that 5 days.

My issue with Craftsman is that their tools haven't performed well for me. I'm almost 20 miles from the nearest Sears and I don't have the time to go there every time something breaks. Not to mention it's just a "hometown" Sears, they don't carry everything in stock. The next closet Sears that does have most tools in stock is about 40 miles away. Working on a farm I can't just drop everything to go get a ratchet or breaker bar replaced the day of. It's impossible. Not to mention when you're in the field making a repair you're depending on your tools not to fail. It ends up costing you more time.

I've definitely seen a decline in the Craftsman quality in just my lifetime. Even their "premium" ratchets from a few years ago turned out to be ****. The 3/8" was almost $80. I can get a SK cheaper than that and it will last. The lobster call wrenches I think are another sign. I know a few guys who ended up with those. They hate them. They either no longer use them or they replaced them with something else.

My other issue is warranty. The last few times I tried to warranty a Craftsman tools through Sears it was always a hassle. No in and out quick replacement. I'd rather wait a few days to have Snap On or SK ship a replacement to me than wait to make a trip to Sears and have them tell I can't warranty a socket cuz I don't have the whole set with me.

 

[nbpt100]

For years, Sears' hand tools had minimal to no competition in their same price range.

Home Depot and similar big box stores didn't exist...................


In any case, tools are less than 1% of Sears' problems today. The core problem is Eddie Lampert, whose obvious goal is to put the company out of business so he can sell off the real estate 'cause that's where the real value is in Sears.

Metlmunchr, well thought out and written post! I agree completelywith your observations.

I remember when Stores like Sears and others had full time professional sales staffs that could provide great advice and service. Now the job is seen as a cashier and shelf stocker. I remember in the Boston Area if you went to any Sears store they had professional Adult staff working.....not part time students. The Auto centers had 20 + bays and had professional service writers and knowledgeable people advising you on tire purchases. They were busy. The same people were working their every time you went. Now they have more empty bays than full. I know there is more competition but the level of service and value has diminished dramatically. People use to drop their car off at the Sear service center in the mall and go shopping have lunch, get a hair cut, whatever and pick up their car in a few hours. Now they don't go to malls too much......I have noticed many local malls now open at 10AM vs. 9AM.

Definitely right about Lambert.....another example of Vulcher capitalism. Run for personal profit not for the best interest of the overall shareholder or in the best interest of communities they serve. Not in the best interests of the country as a whole. As Sears dies Amazon grows.

 

[Codejack]

I'd say this wrench has been abused.

Well, it's a good things that I am not bothering to warranty it (or the other 5 or 6 that completely broke), huh?

 

[bobcatdan]

Craftsman has always been middle of the road. Generally always meeting a price point that they were better then cheaper stuff, but for more money there was always better out out there and that can be said for about every era of craftsman. One of their big failures in my book was always racing to the next gimmick instead of upgrading the base tools. Going back when the pro tools came out in the 90's, that should have just been the mainline and let the RP die then. Since craftsman never made anything, they could have always cherrypicked nice stuff and could have kept the offerings as a great bang for the buck.

 

[kn51]

Sears basically had the world by the fuzz and let it fly by. Could have been Amazon.

The Sears/Willis Tower exists because they felt they needed the square footage to support their expansion.

At the end of the day, whether you liked or loathed Sears their demise will be a sad day.

And yeah, the RP ratchets **** and about 80% of what I have is Craftsman. Like the girl that dumped you in high school, it is time to move on.

 

[Codejack]

At the end of the day, whether you liked or loathed Sears their demise will be a sad day.

Absolutely.

I would rather buy American; I would rather American companies succeed; I am an American and that would be better for me. My neighbors would have better jobs and could afford to pay me for my services more often and the whole country would be a better place.

That being said, companies that make stupid decisions have to fail. Incompetence cannot be rewarded.

I think that they should have let General Motors die.

 

[Gmonkee]

I suspect the worldwide GM truck products are propping up the whole more than anything.

Not just cars or the US market, that is but a sidenote on the global scale of GM.

Not a decline but a temporary shift of focus for a while.
Wait and see what the shift of petroleum powered cars to electric in European markets will bring. This future isn't for luddites.

 

[Codejack]

Wait and see what the shift of petroleum powered cars to electric in European markets will bring. This future isn't for luddites.

That is a dead end, I am afraid; the science and economics of electric cars simply do not work, at least if environmentalism is the goal.

 

[Gmonkee]

Currently no, that is correct. But in the future recycling will get the special metals and toxins from scrap bin material back into new products more reliably.

The art of turning old electronic junk into gold and even rarer metals in in its infancy.
All it needs is to put a demand on the product and someone will find a way to provide it.

I can see old landfills getting mined again for the treasure our fathers tossed out as refuse.

 

[Infinia]

Who knew GJ was a refuge for ex-science and economics experts.
heck I bet these are the same guys that don't read the manual on their new tools.

 

[ChrisPace]

I agree with the original poster, People rave over the cheap china HF stuff but hate Craftsman that's made in china. Craftsman still offers 84T slim profile ratchets made in Taiwan by Gearwrench/Apex yet they brag about the Harbour freight ratchets they bought with coupons.
Craftsman still offers one of the greatest warranty programs. I still consider the larger socket sets to be the best value for the homeowner no pro type.

So I'd like to know why people think that HF's china factory is better than the Apex China factory? Which is soon to be at a new factory on the US soil some day.

 

[Codejack]

Currently no, that is correct. But in the future recycling will get the special metals and toxins from scrap bin material back into new products more reliably.

The art of turning old electronic junk into gold and even rarer metals in in its infancy.
All it needs is to put a demand on the product and someone will find a way to provide it.

I can see old landfills getting mined again for the treasure our fathers tossed out as refuse.

It's not that; it's that you have to put more energy in to actually digging up and refining (or recycling) the materials than you save by using them... which isn't much in the first place.

There is one study suggesting that simply the extra particulate emissions released from tires due to extra weight nullifies any environmental benefit from EVs, at all, before even considering lifecycle costs.

----------------------------------------

Fuel cell cars can be powered by a simple hydrocarbon (e.g. Formic Acid) synthesized from atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, created using waste heat from advanced nuclear reactors (the kind Russia and India are building).

That's a closed Carbon cycle, using existing infrastructure, with minimal required changes to our way of life.

Oh, and it's cheaper

 

[Codejack]

Who knew GJ was a refuge for ex-science and economics experts.

Yea, I have wasted my education; thanks for rubbing my nose in it

heck I bet these are the same guys that don't read the manual on their new tools.

Tools come with manuals?

 

[PugetDude]

So I'd like to know why people think that HF's china factory is better than the Apex China factory?

Haters got hate. Craftsman bashing is the GJ version of the black-clad anarchists breaking windows on May Day. They're mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore, but have a hard time articulating exactly what "it" is.

Maybe it's because of what Sears used to be and what HF has become. They have been on opposing trajectories for years and it was inevitable that their paths would intersect; it actually happened quite a few years ago. HF is still expanding, Sears is still contracting.

As a kid who grew up in the 60's/70's I'll be sad to see Sears go, but I won't be ranting on the GJ or breaking windows at HF when it does.

 

[Codejack]

I agree with the original poster, People rave over the cheap china HF stuff but hate Craftsman that's made in china. Craftsman still offers 84T slim profile ratchets made in Taiwan by Gearwrench/Apex yet they brag about the Harbour freight ratchets they bought with coupons.
Craftsman still offers one of the greatest warranty programs. I still consider the larger socket sets to be the best value for the homeowner no pro type.

So I'd like to know why people think that HF's china factory is better than the Apex China factory? Which is soon to be at a new factory on the US soil some day.

Well, for one thing, there are expectations:

People who buy (or bought) Sears and Craftsman products did so in the expectation that they were getting quality merchandise, and they were paying a premium.

People who buy Harbor Freight are not expecting anything. They are cheap tools, so if they break, they don't get too upset.

-------------------------------

Beyond that, though, is the fact that not all tools of either brand are created equal.

Generally speaking "China" is **** but "Taiwan" is pretty good.

Most of the Pittsburgh Pro line at Harbor Freight is Taiwanese; most of the Craftsman stuff I see is Chinese.

For the same price....

 

[PugetDude]

Well, for one thing, there are expectations:

People who buy (or bought) Sears and Craftsman products did so in the expectation that they were getting quality merchandise, and they were paying a premium.

People who buy Harbor Freight are not expecting anything. They are cheap tools, so if they break, they don't get too upset.....

Perception is reality.

Consider Costco. What other retailer would garner such a strong level of support from shoppers if they charged a membership fee and packaged their purchases in their cardboard waste?

 

[Codejack]

What other retailer would garner such a strong level of support from shoppers if they charged a membership fee and packaged their purchases in their cardboard waste?

Apple?

 

[Cato]

Couple of things:

Craftsman was never good. It was just one of the better brands available at the price point. Now there are so many available tool brands that excel and rival the pricing of Craftsman that there is no point apart from legacy and nostalgia to buy them.

Craftsman was the Harbor Freight of it's day.

Craftsman never made any tools - it's like Kirkland and Costco - they just had suppliers stamp Craftsman on their products.

Over the years Craftsman sough Chinese makers to bring costs down since Craftsman was always VERY inexpensive. Their holiday sales always had tools at 50% off. Even today, you can get a ratchet and 9 sockets for about $10. Guys complain about the RP ratchets, but after all it's a $3 ratchet! Of course it's not going to be as smooth and durable as a $150 Snap On. And for 99% of us, it works just fine. On the off chance you bust it with a cheater bar, Sears replaces it no questions asked.

 

[TalonFE]

I take issue with uncwstudent...."hedge fund manager (who doesn't work with his hands)" Of course Mr. Lampost uses his hands.....I truly doubt he has a lackey in his lakefront home clicking through the slides during SearsHoldings meetings....which he doesn't attend in person, btw. Anyhow, real estate-wise he's making serious bank off this Sears hobby of his, and doesn't much care a rats' *** about the company, its product, his employees, or anything else except his plunging margins. But to say he doesn't use his hands is so unfair....he'll have to use his hands at some point, most likely signing the Ch 11 paperwork.