Craftsman : series time frame ?

[lauver]

Okay, I'm sorry if this is a repeat but this is a LONG thread and I'm not going to re-read it.

Craftsman reversible ratcheting wrench bought 1999 or 2000 (as part of a set) coded GK-A. Same wrench (replaced broken one) today, code GK-G.

I hope this adds to your collection of codes. The colour of the chrome on the GK-G is much darker, almost a smoke colour compared to the GK-A. The ratcheting end is also slightly thicker visually. The ratcheting mechanism is much tighter too. It simply feels stronger than the GK-A variant.

T56 Impala,

Just yesterday, as I was going through this thread, post by post, page by page, I was having the same thought. Thread is too long, too many posts, impossible to comprehend, impossible to find things I'm looking for, etc etc. I don't know how to fix this problem; I don't think starting a new thread (Craftsman; series time frame II) would help, in fact it would probably make matters worse. Anybody got any ideas on how to fix a thread that's gotten too big and cumbersome?

As far as the GK-A vs GK-G codes go, I can only speculate at this point:

1) Danaher may have made this wrench at one facility (A) and later transfered production to another facility (K).

2) Danaher may have transfered production of this wrench from one division (A) to another division (K).

3) Danaher may have simply changed production runs at the same facility for this wrench, i.e. (A=1999-?) (K=?-2008) with other production code letters in between.

You mentioned some minor differences between the two wrenches; these differences could support any of the three possibilities above. For what it is worth, the four tool sets I was able to attribute to Kingsley Tool (GK-G) were:

PN 42400 7-piece ratcheting locking flex head wrench set, SAE
PN 42401 7-piece ratcheting locking flex head wrench set, MM
PN 42404 8-piece full polish reversible ratcheting combination wrench set,SAE
PN 42405 8-piece full polish reversible ratcheting combination wrench set, MM

 

[T56 Impala]

I wasn't complaining about the thread. Please don't get me wrong. I've tried, poorly, to keep up. It just when I do find something of interest to me (and hopefully this thread), I post it so I don't forget it and don't take a look at the entire thread again.

The 42405 and 42404 would fit into my line perfectly. These were the sets I bought some years ago.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

I've found the manufacturer of the H series code; guess who? If you guessed Danaher, you'd be right.

The H series is found primarily on two types of tools including nutdrivers and drive tool accessories (universal joints, adapters extensions, and speeder handles). I'm sure you guys can find other types of tools in the H series that I've missed.

What I'd like to do now is try to pin down the date range. The range we are currently showing is 1994 - 2008. The 1994 date is based on tools in my tool box. The 2008 date is based on recent trips I've made to sears; H series tools are still on the racks as of last week.

If any of you have H series tools purchased before 1994, please post your dates.

If you have H series tools that are not of the types I've listed above, please post your tools.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

Speaking of nutdrivers, I found a new series code today on an old nutdriver I keep in my truck to tighten up small nuts on my equipment. The new series code is V-circle. It amazes me me that I use this tool all the time and never noticed it before.

So here's what I know about this nutdriver---I bought it used in 1993, it's well worn and the clear handle is somewhat yellowed, and it's PN is 41973 (this PN is still on the racks in Sears but with other series codes). I also have a complete set of SAE nutdrivers that I bought new in 1999 (G series, 1990 - 2008). Bottom line, I don't have a solid date or date range for this series code.

Any speculation on how old this V-circle nutdriver might be?

Any speculation on a possible manufacturer (it looks identical to the later G series nutdrivers I purchased in 1999)?

Have any of you seen V-circle before? If so, on what tool(s) and about when did you acquire this tool(s)?

 

[MAD]

Does someone have a picture of the "Super-Tuff" screwdrivers?

I will try to post some photos of the Super-Tuff Screwdrivers. Don't get too excited though, they are only slightly different in appearance than the standard Craftsman Screwdrivers.

Here are some pictures of the Super-Tuff screwdrivers. Also the beefy 1//2" flat blade Craftsman screwdriver next to a similar one from Millers Falls.

 

[MAD]

Gang,

Speaking of nutdrivers, I found a new series code today on an old nutdriver I keep in my truck to tighten up small nuts on my equipment. The new series code is V-circle. It amazes me me that I use this tool all the time and never noticed it before.

So here's what I know about this nutdriver---I bought it used in 1993, it's well worn and the clear handle is somewhat yellowed, and it's PN is 41973 (this PN is still on the racks in Sears but with other series codes). I also have a complete set of SAE nutdrivers that I bought new in 1999 (G series, 1990 - 2008). Bottom line, I don't have a solid date or date range for this series code.

Any speculation on how old this V-circle nutdriver might be?

Any speculation on a possible manufacturer (it looks identical to the later G series nutdrivers I purchased in 1999)?

Have any of you seen V-circle before? If so, on what tool(s) and about when did you acquire this tool(s)?

My mid 1980s Craftsman nutdrivers are marked with a -V- code (no circle).

 

[lauver]

MAD,

Thanks for posting the driver photo's; a picture is worth a thousand words...so six photo's must be worth six thousand words. My observations:

The "Beefy" 1/2" screwdrivers-- Comparing your Cman and Miller Falls models, the shanks and blades look identical. The shank insertion into the handles is different. And the handle designs looks different too. I have an Indestro 1/2" screwdriver from the early 60's that's close too. Identical shank and blade, but different handle design. I'm not saying that your Cman screwdriver wasn't made by Miller Falls, but the comparison is not "smoking gun" material. I could make the same case for my Indestro and your Cman.


Super Tuff screwdrivers-- The Super Tuff screwdrivers have a unique handle design that differs from the earlier Dunlap screwdrivers (no fluting) and later WF screwdrivers (simpler fluting). And the fact that one has an F-circle and one has a G-circle code complicates matters (i.e. two manufacturers). I have looked all through my tools and the internet and can find no screwdriver handles similar to the Super Tuff handles. I'm going to look on e-bay next using "vintage screwdriver" and see what I can come up with.

EDIT: Checked e-bay; nothing close or promising there today.

V Nut Drivers ca. mid 80's-- The date and V series code would suggest MDF/Easco linage. I was unaware that either company even made drivers, which is not to say they didn't. On the other hand, we now clearly have Danaher making drivers (series codes G and H), so it's not too much of a stretch to assume that MDF or Easco could have as well. Other than your nutdrivers, do you have any other drivers with a V code? Were you aware that MDF or Easco made drivers?

 

[MAD]

The code is a S upwards towards the selector.
Also does any one know if I can still get a rebuild kit for this ratchet? There is one tooth chipped off.

I wonder if the Wright Cougar ratchet guts would fit that old style craftsman ratchet. The customer service rep from Wright told me that the Cougar tools were outsourced to Kingsley tools /Danaher in Garland Texas. Much of the production from the Springfield MA Moore Drop Forging/EASCO plant was moved there a few years ago.

 

[wrenchr]

I wonder if the Wright Cougar ratchet guts would fit that old style craftsman ratchet. The customer service rep from Wright told me that the Cougar tools were outsourced to Kingsley tools /Danaher in Garland Texas. Much of the production from the Springfield MA Moore Drop Forging/EASCO plant was moved there a few years ago.

I have access to both and I will try it out and take pics, not today but I will get to it.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

There's been a bunch of update activity on the series code summary list (see post #69, this thread) over the last couple of weeks. You might want to check it out and see what's new and what's been updated.

Here's a couple of new series codes that are just now appearing on tools on the racks and shelves at Sears. I've made a couple of field trips to my local Sears stores and these are some of my finds (also the guys over at Craftsman Club website have been helpful too, although the CC tool forum is a much smaller community than the GJ tool forum):

K3W = probably Danaher, ca. 2008 - ?
KR = probably Danaher, ca. 2008 - ?
KU = probably Danaher, ca. 2008 - ?
KV = probably Danaher, ca. 2008 - ?
T3W = probably Danaher, ca. 2008 - ?

Don't forget to post if you've got new or updated info.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

Found a couple more series codes today, VL & VN. These codes are commonly found on the classic raised panel pear head ratchets (Moore Drop Forge design) now produced by Danaher. These particular ratchets have the black plastic selector levers. I don't own any VL or VN series ratchets.

Do you own one or both? If so, please post with your approximate purchase dates.

Also, if you own other types of tools with these series codes, please post with tool descriptions and approximate purchase dates.

 

[lauver]

MAD & others interested,

I was killing time yesterday at the local Sears retail store and ran across a few interesting things:

1) I found a 2-arm, 7-ton, gear puller set, PN 46903 with WF V and WF U series codes stamped on various pieces of the puller components. These series codes have previously been attributed to Western Forge and I have no doubt that's who made this puller set. The interesting part, however, is that I have never run across these series codes on this type of tools set.

MAD--Were you aware that Western Forge made gear puller sets? Do you know of other tool types made by Western forge (besides screwdrivers, nutdrivers, bottle cap openers)?

2) I found two 7-piece locking flex wrench sets with different series codes.
The metric set, PN 42401, had series code GK-F, while the SAE set, PN 42400, had series code GK-G. The only difference between the two sets was Metrics vs SAE. Perhaps the 3rd digit of the series code (-F & -G) designates tool characteristics?

MAD--Have you noticed this on other tool sets? Any thoughts on this possibility?

 

[MAD]

MAD & others interested,

I was killing time yesterday at the local Sears retail store and ran across a few interesting things:

1) I found a 2-arm, 7-ton, gear puller set, PN 46903 with WF V and WF U series codes stamped on various pieces of the puller components. These series codes have previously been attributed to Western Forge and I have no doubt that's who made this puller set. The interesting part, however, is that I have never run across these series codes on this type of tools set.

MAD--Were you aware that Western Forge made gear puller sets? Do you know of other tool types made by Western forge (besides screwdrivers, nutdrivers, bottle cap openers)?

As far as I know, Western Forge makes many of the Craftsman pliers,screwdrivers, punches, chisels, adjustable wrenches, beam type torque wrenches and two/three jaw pullers.

I do not know of any Western Forge nut drivers.

 

[MAD]

2) I found two 7-piece locking flex wrench sets with different series codes.
The metric set, PN 42401, had series code GK-F, while the SAE set, PN 42400, had series code GK-G. The only difference between the two sets was Metrics vs SAE. Perhaps the 3rd digit of the series code (-F & -G) designates tool characteristics?

MAD--Have you noticed this on other tool sets? Any thoughts on this possibility?

That may well be. I really don't look at the codes or think about them unless I am trying to figure out something specific about a particular tool such as the OEM.

 

[lauver]

As far as I know, Western Forge makes many of the Craftsman pliers,screwdrivers, punches, chisels, adjustable wrenches, beam type torque wrenches and two/three jaw pullers.

I do not know of any Western Forge nut drivers.

MAD,

You're absolutely right. I forgot all about WF punches, chisels, adjustable wrenches, and pliers. I had not seen the WF pullers before though.

You're also right about WF not supplying nut drivers. The nut drivers are all supplied by Danaher and Pratt Read. You got to wonder why WF doesn't supply the nut drivers though.

I heard from the CC guys that Sears "put the screws" to WF and PR to reduce their driver prices. The CC guys tell me the results are really bad; more broken/bent screwdrivers and rapidly warn out tips than ever before. I noticed the newer WF screwdrivers say something about a "cold forge process" on their packaging.

The newer PR screwdrivers with rubber grip handles and black oxide finished shanks & tips seem to be ok though. I've used a few of them and they are very comfortable to use and seem to hold up well too. Sears has been discounting them lately and they are very reasonably priced. You might want to grab a few of these and try them out.

I noticed you post from time to time on the CC website. I've been spending a little time there myself lately. I've noticed that it is a very, very small community though, perhap 10 or fewer active posters on the tool thread, and maybe another 10 folks who post only occasionally. They all seem to be fairly "********* Craftsman" tool users/collectors/fans. And they seem to be mildly interested in the series time frame project.

 

[lauver]

That may well be. I really don't look at the codes or think about them unless I am trying to figure out something specific about a particular tool such as the OEM.

MAD,

That is exactly what I was trying to do when I stumbled onto this GK-F & GK-G dilemma. I am fairly sure that Pratt Read is doing the same thing with there U PR1, U PR2, U PR3, W PR codes; they seem to delineate finish, shank length, and tip size or type. I could be wrong though.

 

[billymade]

I have noticed when stocking the floor; many of the things you mentioned do have Western Forge printed on the boxes when they come off the truck.

 

[lauver]

I have noticed when stocking the floor; many of the things you mentioned do have Western Forge printed on the boxes when they come off the truck.

billymade,

I didn't know you worked at Sears; you've got a "front row center seat" to the Craftsman tool racks. Please be sure to post anytime you see anything noteworthy.

 

[lauver]

Found a new series code yesterday, VVN = Danaher, ca. 2005. This code was found on a RHFT ratchet (MDF design & patents). Adam at the CC website supplied this info and a few other series codes we already had.

An interesting side note-- of all the folks who have posted on the RHFT ratchets (designed and patented by MDF), we have seen none that date to the MDF years (pre-1969). This may be a simple case of timing, where MDF did not want to produce these ratchets until they had a lock on the patent and MDF's acquisition by Easco in 1968. Still, it would be nice to find a 1968 vintage RHFT ratchet marked with a V series code and patent pending.

So, if anybody has one of these rare birds, post away.

 

[lauver]

Interested parties,

I've just completed an update of the series code summary list (page 7, post #69, this thread). You might want to look it over, as the list has grown (88 total known codes, 15 early series codes, and 73 modern series codes). Also note that the distinction between early and modern series is somewhat arbitrary.

Three tool companies account for most (81%) of the known modern series codes:

--Danaher accounts for 38 codes (or 52%),

--Western Forge accounts for 13 codes (or 18%), and

--Pratt Read account for another 8 codes (or 11%).

--A handfull of other tool companies (including SK, Kastar, Stanley, Daido, Parker, Moore, and Easco account for the balance of modern series codes. Moore and Easco are at the bottom of the list because they apparently shared one series code (V) between them.

Looking at what we have to date, I feel pretty confident in the OEM attributions in general. There are a few unknowns and there are a few codes with two or more possible OEM's, but by and large I think we have a pretty solid picture of who the OEM's are. The date ranges, on the other hand, are not as solid. The vast majority of date ranges are based on too few observations to be reliable. In some cases we have one date, based on one person, with one tool, and one recollection of the purchase date. More observations would help improve the reliability of the date ranges. Last, but not least, I suspect there are a lot of series codes that we are simply missing. Just looking at the pattern of codes known within the major OEM's, it appears we could be missing as many codes as are currently known. I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, but the suspicion is there.

Comments? Thoughts? Post away.

 

[wrenchr]

I bought a tool lot today and from the dates of unopened stuff that was mixed in with the tools is from the mid to late 70's and all the craftsman tools are v series.

 

[MAD]

Here is a new one for you: BC - Found on some very early Craftsman pin punches. The lettering style on the punches resembles the old tools where the capital C extends to underline Craftsman.


I also picked up an older cold chisel that had a circle F code, another older screwdriver with just an F code on it and newish Brake spring pliers also with an F code. The brake spring pliers resemble the KD brand. Could "F" = KD?

 

[wrenchr]

Here is a new one for you: BC - Found on some very early Craftsman pin punches. The lettering style on the punches resembles the old tools where the capital C extends to underline Craftsman.


I also picked up an older cold chisel that had a circle F code, another older screwdriver with just an F code on it and newish Brake spring pliers also with an F code. The brake spring pliers resemble the KD brand. Could "F" = KD?

"F" KD!!!!!

 

[lauver]

Here is a new one for you: BC - Found on some very early Craftsman pin punches. The lettering style on the punches resembles the old tools where the capital C extends to underline Craftsman.


I also picked up an older cold chisel that had a circle F code, another older screwdriver with just an F code on it and newish Brake spring pliers also with an F code. The brake spring pliers resemble the KD brand. Could "F" = KD?

MAD,

I'll add the BC code to the Early series list on my next update. Nice find by the way! I'll also check Alloy Artifacts and Craftsman Club to see if anybody knows the manufacturer and possible date range.

Regarding the F code; you may be on to something with KD. On one of my recent field trips to Sears I found a 3-pc brake service kit, PN 47388, with an F code on the tools. I traced the OEM of this kit to Danaher, which owns KD. And as you know, brake tools and other specialty tools are KD's stock and trade. So I'm feeling good about your theory. There is one small problem though, the screwdrivers with the F code; Does KD make drivers? Could F and F-circle drivers be KD as well (perhaps F-circle was KD before they were acquired by Easco and then Danaher)? If we could link the brake service kit PN to a PN in a KD catalog (new or old) that would pretty much be the smoking gun on the to the F code. I may have a link to a 2005 KD catalog or price list, I'll see if I can find it.

 

[lauver]

I bought a tool lot today and from the dates of unopened stuff that was mixed in with the tools is from the mid to late 70's and all the craftsman tools are v series.

wrenchr,

Do any of the V series tools have part numbers, patent numbers, or patent application dates on them? If so, could you post them along with a general description of the tools? Thanks.

 

[wrenchr]

wrenchr,

Do any of the V series tools have part numbers, patent numbers, or patent application dates on them? If so, could you post them along with a general description of the tools? Thanks.

Yes Sir I will take pics later tonight!!!

 

[wrenchr]

There is a 3/8 extension that is V series and it has no country of origin. It is chrome and is real beefy and the metal is a brushed finish.

 

[lauver]

MAD,

Regarding KD, see:

http://www.kd-tools.com/40521529.htm (square shanked screwdrivers, beefy but no 1/2" tip)

http://www.kd-tools.com/61073.htm (3-piece brake service kit = identical to craftsman kit but part numbers don't match)

Feel free to search around for any of your other F series tools (brake plier, etc).

Wacha think?

EDIT: Just remembered, I have a 1/2" drive Digitork wrench, bought in 1998 (PN 44546), that has no series code on it, but was none-the-less made by KD. This torque wrench is still in the KD catalog; has a different handle design than my C-man branded version. Don't know if you new about the KD-torque wrench connection. "Joe" at the CC web site put me onto this connection.

 

[lauver]

MAD,

Regarding your BC series tool-- After looking at the Alloy Artifacts logo list, trademark list, and a few other lists I came up with a short list of possible manufacturers based on similarities between the code and manu's names:

Bemis & Call (I know, who the hell are they?)

Bon-e-con (I know, it's just a brand/trade name)

Barcalo (I'm liken this one!)

Billings (Sears actually sold Billings branded tools in the early days!)

 

[wrenchr]

 

[wrenchr]

 

[wrenchr]

The tools from the ratchet up are all craftsman and all but 2 of those are V coded.

 

[lauver]

wrenchr,

Thanks for the photo's; quite a haul there! The coolest tool in the lot is that flashlight at the top of the group photo; looks like Buck Rogers lost his flashlight!!! Is that a Craftsman flashlight? Probably dates to the 1940's -1950's based on the design.

I got the part numbers off of the photo for the two extensions and the ratchet. I'll see if I can date them by checking when those part numbers appear and disappear from the catalogs.

Thanks again.

 

[wrenchr]

Rayo vac...... It is copper!!

 

[eschoendorff]

Rayo vac...... It is copper!!

Copper or brass???

 

[wrenchr]

I would say copper.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

I've made a few updates to the the series code list (page 7, post #69, this thread) this week involving codes F and F-circle.

F = Danaher, ca. ? - 2008 (All available information points to Danaher as the OEM for this series code. The only uncertainty at this point is when this code first appeared. So, if you've got any F series tools please post your approximate date(s) of purchase.)

F-circle = possibly Lectrolite, Miller Falls, or KD Tools, ca. 1949 - 1964 (could use a lot more examples of this series code and evidence of possible OEM's. So, if you've got tools with this series code or evidence of likely OEM's please post what you've got.)

 

[lauver]

Gang,

I found a new series code today at the local Sears Retail Store. This code was found on a 7-pc set of Craftsman reversible ratcheting combination wrenches, PN 42404 (SAE). These wrenches are clearly stamped on the tool shanks and marked on the package as made in the USA. The new series code is GK-X and I am certain the OEM is Danaher. I also suspect that the Kingsley Tools division makes these tools. The Kingsley Tools division has previously been attributed to other Craftsman ratcheting wrench sets with series codes GK-A, GK-F, and GK-G.

However, I noticed that folks were talking about Craftsman ratcheting wrench sets that claim to be made in the USA on another thread ("Are These Made In USA?"). There was some discussion about the Armstrong division of Danaher being the likely OEM.

Does anybody have any thoughts or evidence that may clear up the OEM debate between Kingsley Tools division and Armstrong division?

 

[old salvage]

Heres yet another pesky item that muddies the water....
http://cgi.ebay.com/CRAFTSMAN-VV-44975-1-2DR-RATCHET-QUICK-RELEASE-HEAD_W0QQitemZ130230071867QQihZ003QQcategoryZ13872QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
Its a 70's or 80's style ratchet with a vv series code.

 

[Detroit Diesel Man]

I'd like to know what year a set of wrenches I got from my Grandfather is..I'll have to get some pics tomorrow nite at work with some numbers off them.


DDM