Craftsman : series time frame ?

[lauver]

Detroit Diesel Man,

Look forward to seeing your photo's. Just a couple of suggestions about taking tool pic's.

Be sure to include pic's of any ratchet. Ratchets are usually easier to date than other tools.

Be sure to include pic's of both sides of any tool.

Be sure to take close ups of the Craftsman logo and any other markings on the tool.

Be sure to take close ups of the ratchet head and the selector lever.

If your camera has close up, portrait, or macro capability, use it.

Consider the background and lighting when you lay out your tools. You want the tools to stand out against the background and you want plenty of light.

Placing a ruler next to your tool is handy touch too, it makes it easy to judge size.

 

[Detroit Diesel Man]

Thanks for pic taking tips..got home late..forgot the dang camera too..note to self..take pics tomorrow!


DDM

 

[lauver]

DDM,

Here's another idea that may help you, check out the following Alloy Artifacts links; they have mucho information on early Craftsman tools and lot's of good pic's of various tools. Even if you don't find examples of your exact wrenches, you will learn a lot and have an enjoyable read:

http://alloy-artifacts.com/craftsman-early-tools.html
http://alloy-artifacts.com/craftsman-be-hcircle.html
http://alloy-artifacts.com/craftsman-maker-v.html

 

[Detroit Diesel Man]

Pics as promised...not super clear but with my cheap camera the best I can do..1 pic of 1 side 1 pic of opposite side...3/8-1" even has a 19/32 size.
any info on approx year would be great. Thanks!

DDM


Not sure how to get the pics any bigger..the site has a max size. I did see a "C1" on the wrenches if that helps..or a suggestion to get the pics bigger..thanks again..lots of cool info in this thread and the links.

 

[64merc]

DDM, I have one wrench like that, but a whole set is awesome. I don't use open ends too much but these wrenches have a really nice feel to them. I'm no authority, but I thought these were 1940s??

 

[eschoendorff]

Pics as promised...not super clear but with my cheap camera the best I can do..1 pic of 1 side 1 pic of opposite side...3/8-1" even has a 19/32 size.
any info on approx year would be great. Thanks!

DDM


Not sure how to get the pics any bigger..the site has a max size. I did see a "C1" on the wrenches if that helps..or a suggestion to get the pics bigger..thanks again..lots of cool info in this thread and the links.

A little OT here, but instead of uploading your pics as attachments, try using a picture hosting site like www.photobucket.com

Picture integrity is a lot more consistent and you have way more storage and picture options.

 

[lauver]

V-circle Series Revisited:

I found another tool (1/4" drive spinner handle) with a V-circle series code and a known purchase date. Good news right? Wrong, nothing about this find makes sense.

The V-circle spinner handle was part of a 19-piece 1/4" drive tool kit I bought in 1985. I rechecked all the tools from this kit and here's what I found:

V-series ratchet (MDF or Easco, the purchase date would suggest Easco)

V-circle series spinner handle (unknown manu., previously no known dates)

H-series extensions (Danaher, 1990 - 2008)

V, VV, & G series sockets (MDF/Easco thru 1989, Danaher, & Danaher 1990 -2008)

How can Danaher made tools be included in a kit that was sold 5 years prior to Danaher becoming an OEM?

I suppose I could have made a mistake when I entered the purchase date in my inventory. And I suppose the V and V-circle tools could have been NOS that were in Sears stock for at least 5 years, maybe longer. But I strongly suspect the V-circle code dates to the 60's and earlier.

Anybody got a theory?

 

[lauver]

Adam over on the CC forum found a new series code today; K3X. Looks like Danaher is running out of alphabet. New codes are showing up with mixed alpha and numerics. What's next, 5-digit series codes with a 4-digit suffix (ala zip code)?

Oh well, I'll take 'em as I finds 'em.

Edit--Adam is a Sears PMT and see's all the tool returns/exchanges. The K3X was found on a 2007 ratchet that was part of a 3/8 drive kit. You might want to a avoid this series of ratchets. An exchange on a 2007 model doesn't bode well. Just a "heads up".

 

[MAD]

We also have S-circle, a ratchet with no known manufacturer or production dates (currently listed in modern series)...this could be a possibility; it has characteristics of both early and modern series, but no one has made the attribution to MDF or any other company.

You may have thoughts on S-circle or other possible MDF series codes. If so, please share your thoughts. I'm open to any discussion on this subject.

Yesterday I picked up an older Craftsman feeler gauge set with an S-circle code. It has the same part number as this current one (A&E Kastar I think) but has a different gauge selection including some brass ones.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00940811000P?vName=Automotive&cName=Tools&Equipment&sName=Automotive%20Specialty%20Tools&psid

If the S-circle code is on a ratchet too perhaps S-circle could be K-D. That is the only OEM I can think of that might have supplied both a ratchet and feeler gauge sets to Craftsman.

 

[lauver]

Yesterday I picked up an older Craftsman feeler gauge set with an S-circle code. It has the same part number as this current one (A&E Kastar I think) but has a different gauge selection including some brass ones.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00940811000P?vName=Automotive&cName=Tools&Equipment&sName=Automotive%20Specialty%20Tools&psid

If the S-circle code is on a ratchet too perhaps S-circle could be K-D. That is the only OEM I can think of that might have supplied both a ratchet and feeler gauge sets to Craftsman.

MAD,

The S-circle feeler guage set is a nice find. Now we have two tools with that series code. The S-circle ratchet is pretty sketchy though, we know very little about it and the series code in wrenchrs photo is pretty fuzzy. The ratchet looks to be late 40's or 50's. Do you think your feeler gauge set could be 50 years old? And whoever manufactured the ratchet and feeler guage must have been a minor OEM to Sears because the series code seems to be quite rare. I like your idea on KD though, given the odd combination of known tools.

We know what KD ratchets looked like after Easco acquired them. But I have no idea what KD ratchets looked like pre-Easco. Let me see if I can find some photos of earlier KD ratchets.

 

[User_Name]

I'll pipe in just for the sake of completeness. Have 3 ratchets (part of a set) stamped as EEC series from circa '90. No national identifiers on them. The accompanying sockets are EE series. Purchased in Canada.

 

[MAD]

The ratchet looks to be late 40's or 50's. Do you think your feeler gauge set could be 50 years old?

Definitely not that old. It has the =CRAFTSMAN= logo and the gauges are marked with both standard and metric. I would say late 1960s at the absolute earliest- probably 1970s or later.

 

[lauver]

I'll pipe in just for the sake of completeness. Have 3 ratchets (part of a set) stamped as EEC series from circa '90. No national identifiers on them. The accompanying sockets are EE series. Purchased in Canada.

Could you post some photos of the set, and maybe close ups of one ratchet and one socket showing the series codes and C-man logos. I've never seen any Canadian Craftsmans.

I'm guessing your ratchets are the round heads with speeder wheels that were made by Stanley Works. I'm also guessing that their production date was before 1990, say about 1987 which was pretty much the end of the line for Stanley contract. Your tool set was probably NOS. Danaher was the principal supplier starting in 1990 and there is no evidence that they ever used the E, EE, or EEC series codes. Your photo's could prove me wrong though.

Thanks for posting your stuff.

 

[MAD]

The S-circle ratchet is pretty sketchy though, we know very little about it and the series code in wrenchrs photo is pretty fuzzy. The ratchet looks to be late 40's or 50's.

Which ratchet had the S-circle code on it? I don't remember ever seeing that one.

 

[lauver]

MAD,

Thanks for the info and possible dates on your feeler guage set. I could be way off on the date of the S-circle ratchet. It could be from the 60's too. It's hard to tell from the photos. I'm going to ask wrenchr to open the ratchet up and examine the ratchet mechanism. Maybe he can tell if its the same as MDF V-series mechanisms of the 60's. Or maybe he'll find something entirely different. It's worth a shot.

 

[lauver]

Which ratchet had the S-circle code on it? I don't remember ever seeing that one.

MAD,

See Post #182, Page 19, this thread. As I was looking at the photo again, for the first time in a long time, one thing was very obvious---The S-circle ratchet is a "Box Head" and not a "Pear Head". I don't think MDF, Easco, or KD made Box Head ratchets (I could be wrong though). So we're probably looking at one of the other manufacturers like Plomb/Proto, Snap on, etc who made Box Heads. Again, I think wrencher may be able to provide some direction here if he cracks his ratchet open. I'll PM him now and get back with you when I hear from wrencher.

 

[MAD]

MAD,

See Post #182, Page 19, this thread. As I was looking at the photo again, for the first time in a long time, one thing was very obvious---The S-circle ratchet is a "Box Head" and not a "Pear Head". I don't think MDF, Easco, or KD made Box Head ratchets (I could be wrong though). So we're probably looking at one of the other manufacturers like Plomb/Proto, Snap on, etc who made Box Heads. Again, I think wrencher may be able to provide some direction here if he cracks his ratchet open. I'll PM him now and get back with you when I hear from wrencher.

OK I remember that one. I just couldn't see the "S".

The current 3/4" drive Craftsman ratchet is that style head and has been for a long time. Also, a Wright tool rep told me that the Wright Cougar tool line was made for them by Danaher. The Cougar ratchets look similar as well.

 

[lauver]

OK I remember that one. I just couldn't see the "S".

The current 3/4" drive Craftsman ratchet is that style head and has been for a long time. Also, a Wright tool rep told me that the Wright Cougar tool line was made for them by Danaher. The Cougar ratchets look similar as well.

MAD,

Yeh, I can't make out the series code either from the picture, it's forged not stamped. I'm taking wrenchr's word for it.

If memory serves, I think you asked wrenchr about the possible Wright Cougar connection before, and I don't believe he replied. I PM'd him today and am hoping to hear from him soon.

You know, I looked at wrenchr's photo's a bunch of times and don't ever remember that ratchet being a box head design. It jumped out, though, when I looked at it today. I think the box head design is going to help limit the possible manufacturers and perhaps positively identify it. At least, that is what I'm hoping.

 

[MAD]

If you look at the pictures wrencher posted you may notice that the similar "V" series ratchet (with rebuilt stamp) has a forged in "N" in the same location as the "S" on the other one. That leads me to believe that the "S" code on the ratchet is likely to have some other purpose than indicating the manufacturer.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21615

Maybe my S-circle feeler gauges are Kastar.

 

[wrenchr]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21615

 

[lauver]

Wrenchr,

Thanks for the pic's. Did you ever open the ratchet mechanisms? Did the ratchet mechanism suggest a particular manufacturer?

MAD,

These pic's that wrenchr supplied show 3 similar boxheads, 2 V-series and 1 S-circle. All three share common construction and design, and perhaps the same manufacturer. But no pic's of the ratchet guts. We're back to square one.

 

[wrenchr]

Wrenchr,

Thanks for the pic's. Did you ever open the ratchet mechanisms? Did the ratchet mechanism suggest a particular manufacturer?

MAD,

These pic's that wrenchr supplied show 3 similar boxheads, 2 V-series and 1 S-circle. All three share common construction and design, and perhaps the same manufacturer. But no pic's of the ratchet guts. We're back to square one.

To be honest the ratchet design reminds me of indestro ratchets.
I did take all of them apart for cleaning and oiling but no picks.

 

[lauver]

To be honest the ratchet design reminds me of indestro ratchets.
I did take all of them apart for cleaning and oiling but no picks.

Thanks wrencher, that really helps. The guys over at the CC site had a similar boxhead ratchet with the indented panel between the raised panel and the head (but no S-circle), and they were thinking Indestro too. I'm going to check out the Alloy Artifacts site and see what they've got on Indestro. Perhaps I can find a similar ratchet and a date when Indestro went out of business. That could help with a likely date range.

 

[wrenchr]

Thanks wrencher, that really helps. The guys over at the CC site had a similar boxhead ratchet with the indented panel between the raised panel and the head (but no S-circle), and they were thinking Indestro too. I'm going to check out the Alloy Artifacts site and see what they've got on Indestro. Perhaps I can find a similar ratchet and a date when Indestro went out of business. That could help with a likely date range.

I do know indestro supplied powrkraft/Mongomery wards their tool line plus western auto / wizard........Plus who knows how many other's!!

 

[lauver]

I do know indestro supplied powrkraft/Mongomery wards their tool line plus western auto / wizard........Plus who knows how many other's!!

Duro and Indestro had tools in the Sears catalogs of the 1930's and 1940's under their own brands, But not as Craftsmans as far as anybody knows.

I know this sounds crazy, but the Snap on ratchets of the 50's look very similar (the heads, not the handles). Could S-circle = Snap on? I'm looking at a 1959 F-710A and the head details look very close. Just a thought for discussion

 

[wrenchr]

Duro and Indestro had tools in the Sears catalogs of the 1930's and 1940's under their own brands, But not as Craftsmans as far as anybody knows.

I know this sounds crazy, but the Snap on ratchets of the 50's look very similar (the heads, not the handles). Could S-circle = Snap on? I'm looking at a 1959 F-710A and the head details look very close. Just a thought for discussion

Well those I do have!!!

 

[lauver]

wrenchr,

Do you have a photo that shows the other side (drive bit and cover plate) of the C-man boxhead ratchets? This might help narrow down possible manufacturers (i.e. Indestro vs. Snap on).

 

[wrenchr]

I will gather up what I have later when I get home from work.

 

[lauver]

wrenchr,

Forget looking for more pic's, I found some great pic's that Powderkeg posted on the "Old ratchets" thread...some with the ratchet mechanisms and cover plates exposed. He also posted pic's of other boxhead brands side by side. PowderKeg found many similarities between the C-man and Snap on models, but in the end could not identify the manufacturer of the C-man boxhead ratchet. Similar boxhead designs were found on countless ratchet brands and the general design was appearantly copied by lots of manufacturers.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

 

[wrenchr]

The key is the interchangeability between makes.

 

[lauver]

wrenchr,

PowderKeg said the Snap on and Cman mechanisms were not interchangable for a number of reasons. So that eliminates the Snap on possibility. I'll have to reread his post to see how other ratchet combo's worked out. By the way, I noticed you started that thread. Very good thread.

 

[wrenchr]

wrenchr,

PowderKeg said the Snap on and Cman mechanisms were not interchangable for a number of reasons. So that eliminates the Snap on possibility. I'll have to reread his post to see how other ratchet combo's worked out. By the way, I noticed you started that thread. Very good thread.

Another eliminator for snap on is they have a bushing that the gear ride's on and that us special to snap on, I have seen no other brand have this. It was a very good idea, for warranties sake, replace the bushing not the ratchet when it wears out.

 

[lauver]

MAD,

Check out this screwdriver I found on another thread. Note the fine flutes between the larger ones. Looks sort of remaniscent of your F and G-circle Super Tuff drivers. Not a perfect match by any stretch, but perhaps if we could Identify the manufacturer of the Wizard screwdriver it might lead us in a new direction towards the OEM of your screwdrivers.

Wasn't Wizard a brand that Western Auto used?

Also worth noting--the "Super Tuff" on your drivers refers to the metal alloy used in the shaft, not the plastic handle. The late 1940's and 1950's catalog used "Super Tuff" as a description for the alloys in ratchets and drive tools.

 

[lauver]

I just did another update to the series code summary list (page 7, post 69, this thread). Added DJ, K1W, T1V, T5V, and T5X series codes, and updated Z, I-circle, and S-circle series codes. Here's a description of some of the more interesting stuff:

New series code-- "DJ" found on a Craftsman vernier caliper, model 40175, made in Japan, purchased ca. 1968. The guys on the CC site were familier with this and other related tools and identified the DJ series OEM as Mitutoyo. So we have a legit find, but need to flesh out the date range.

Anybody have any 1960's machinest measuring tools? If so, check em for the DJ series code and post the approximate purchase dates.

Z series code update-- found a tapered reamer, model 5479, purchased in 1991. Also found an adjustable circle cutter, model 25293, purchased in 2006. Also found a smaller circle cutter, model 3645, purchased in 1966. All 3 tools had the Z series code (Mayhew, ca. 2007-2008). What these finds do is substantially expand the known date range for the Z series code. It also expands the range of known tools for Z. I have always associated Mayhew with striking tools and prying tools. Now we know they also supplied some machinest tools.

I-circle series update-- I found a lone tool, a riveter, model 74747, purchased in 1986, with an I-circle code (Parker MFG Co. ca 1985). Previously, the only tool found with this code was a locking plier (vice-grip style); now we have a second tool, the riveter, and a second known date. What do these two tools have in common other than their dates? Probably their design and construction (think bent or formed sheet metal with a couple of small forged/machined parts and fasteners added).

S-circle update-- I found two additional tools with this series code, a Sears wire guage set, model 4075, purchased in 1964, and a Dunlap feeler guage set, no model number, purchased around 1960, perhaps a little earlier. These are the first dates associated with this series code. The only other known tool was a boxhead ratchet of unknown vintage, so we've expanded the range of tools associated with this series code as well. Also worth noting, the Sears and Dunlap branded tools were both economy tools. The S-circle boxhead ratchet, on the other hand, was branded Craftsman.

I don't kow if this helps or hinders in the search for an OEM. One company that comes to mind is KD Tools. They have been around for a long time, have a broad range of tools including ratchets and specialty tools, and probably could have provided tools at the lower price points that Sears was looking for in the Sears and Dunlap brands. Does anybody have any thoughts on this or other possibilities?

 

[MAD]

S-circle update-- I found two additional tools with this series code, a Sears wire guage set, model 4075, purchased in 1964, and a Dunlap feeler guage set, no model number, purchased around 1960, perhaps a little earlier. These are the first dates associated with this series code. The only other known tool was a boxhead ratchet of unknown vintage, so we've expanded the range of tools associated with this series code as well. Also worth noting, the Sears and Dunlap branded tools were both economy tools. The S-circle boxhead ratchet, on the other hand, was branded Craftsman.

I don't kow if this helps or hinders in the search for an OEM. One company that comes to mind is KD Tools. They have been around for a long time, have a broad range of tools including ratchets and specialty tools, and probably could have provided tools at the lower price points that Sears was looking for in the Sears and Dunlap brands. Does anybody have any thoughts on this or other possibilities?

As I attempted to say in post #419, I think the S-circle on the ratchet is not a true "series code" in terms of indicating the manufacturer of the tool. There is a similar dull foundry mark on wrencher's other similar V series ratchet (the one with the rebuilt stamp). I think treating the ratchet in question as a S series tool may be a red herring.

 

[MAD]

I-circle series update-- I found a lone tool, a riveter, model 74747, purchased in 1986, with an I-circle code (Parker MFG Co. ca 1985). Previously, the only tool found with this code was a locking plier (vice-grip style); now we have a second tool, the riveter, and a second known date. What do these two tools have in common other than their dates? Probably their design and construction (think bent or formed sheet metal with a couple of small forged/machined parts and fasteners added).

In post #63 I mentioned an I-circle ratcheting box wrench I have with a patent assigned to Parker Manufacturing. Here is a link to the patent info:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3742788.html

Here are some patents assigned to Parker that may be related to the riveter you found.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D256658.html?query=%22PARKER+MANUFACTURING%22&stemming=on

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D256327.html?query=%22PARKER+MANUFACTURING%22&stemming=on

 

[lauver]

MAD,

I have been suspicious of that S-circle mark on wrenchr's early Cman boxhead ratchet for a long time (BTW, he no longer owns it). But, the fact that I own two tools (Dunlap feeler guage & Sears wire guage) that are clearly marked with S-circle now lends some creedence to the validity of S-circle series code. I take your point though about wrenchr's ratchet; that S-circle may be some type of forge code (like N-square on some early tools that also have a CI or Cxx series codes) and not a real series code (i.e. makers mark).

EDIT--I reread some of your earlier posts on S-circle, your feeler guage set, and possible 1960's date. Your date is consistant with my feeler and wire guage dates. And Kastar is indeed a likely suspect for these types of tools. And I agree with you that wrenchr's ratchet may be a red herring. Without the boxhead wratchet, S-circle now makes perfect sense; so I've updated S-circle = Kastar, ca. 1960 - 1964. If you find any tune up type tools with S-circle that are before or after these dates, let me know and I'll extend the date range.

Also, thanks for the patent links on the I-circle tools. I think we're on the right track with Parker Mfg.

 

[lauver]

In post #63 I mentioned an I-circle ratcheting box wrench I have with a patent assigned to Parker Manufacturing. Here is a link to the patent info:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3742788.html

Here are some patents assigned to Parker that may be related to the riveter you found.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D256658.html?query=%22PARKER+MANUFACTURING%22&stemming=on

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D256327.html?query=%22PARKER+MANUFACTURING%22&stemming=on

MAD,

I completely missed or forgot that post. I checked out the patent documents and issue date (1973). These ratcheting box end wrenches look very much like the ones made by Kastar.

Do you have a rough purchase date on your I-circle RBE? If we went with the patent issue date we would extend the date range by more than a decade.

Also, what parts of your RBE are plastic? The Kastar RBE are pretty much all metal except for a plastic spacer at both ends of the wrench.

 

[MAD]

MAD,

I completely missed or forgot that post. I checked out the patent documents and issue date (1973). These ratcheting box end wrenches look very much like the ones made by Kastar.

Do you have a rough purchase date on your I-circle RBE? If we went with the patent issue date we would extend the date range by more than a decade.

Also, what parts of your RBE are plastic? The Kastar RBE are pretty much all metal except for a plastic spacer at both ends of the wrench.

The I circle wrench was purchased used but it has the 1960s crown logo. The similar wrenches I have with the Parker patent # (but no series code) were bought around 1986.

The entire center spacer of the wrench is plastic and it encloses the entire ratchet mechanism.

 

[MAD]

The "H" series Allen wrenches, socket extensions, and nut drivers are all tools that are made at the Danaher /Holo-Krome plant in West Hartford CT.