Craftsman : series time frame ?

[lauver]

Here is one that I found, I probably could find more if it would be helpful. Thought maybe these pictures of the broaching would answer some questions.

stevejh82,

Thanks for posting the photos of the broaching. Very helpful. Does your BM socket say Made in USA?


eddie,

It's my understanding that the Brazil tool line was made in Brazil. I'll double check alloy artifacts and see what they say.

EDIT: eddie, you're absoultely right about Brazil Tools...made in USA. There goes my theory.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

Long time no post. I was at a great pawn shop today and found an early Craftsman Vanadium open-end wrench. The wrench is nickel plated, though dark and dull. There is what may be a model number 1729, and what may be a series code AF stamped on the handle. Here is a photo I borrowed from Alloy Artifacts showing this same wrench:

This wrench is a dead ringer for the Fulton wrenches sold by Sears in the pre-Craftsman years. However, Fulton is a tool brand, not an OEM. So the question is, who made these wrenches under the Fulton and Craftsman brands. I'm guessing the only way to determine this is by comparing wrenches of various manufactures. I've already looked over the early wrenches of S-K, Duro-Indestro, Armstrong, Billings, New Britian, Hinsdale, Herbrand, and many others, and can find no matches. Does this wrench look like any wrenches that you have, or have seen? If so, can you post a photo or a link?

Any help appreciated.

PS-- I forgot to mention that I payed $1.25 for the wrench. Yeh, I know, I ****!

 

[lbgradwell]

Hey Gary,

Interesting find there, but I'd like to point out that the AA photo doesn't seem to show the model number that you say appears on your example...

Also, are you certain that it says "1729" and not simply "729"? You see, "729" is the old Industry Standard Number for a double open-end wrench with milled openings of 5/8"X3/4"...

 

[lauver]

Hey Gary,

Interesting find there, but I'd like to point out that the AA photo doesn't seem to show the model number that you say appears on your example...

Also, are you certain that it says "1729" and not simply "729"? You see, "729" is the old Industry Standard Number for a double open-end wrench with milled openings of 5/8"X3/4"...

LG,

The model number (I think) is 1729 and is stamped on the reverse side of the larger (3/4) open end. It occured to me that it might be a standard wrench number or a model number. Let me do some more looking at some of the standard wrench numbers (there were several different systems) and get back with you.

 

[lauver]

LG,

I checked the Standard numbers and Billings numbers on AA. There was no 1729 in their table. They mentioned there were two other sytems (SAE and Hex Cap, but both of these appear to have used the U.S. standard numbers with different sizings).

So, the 1729 could be a model number or a red herring? I don't know.

 

[Eddie Hudson]

Gary
#1729 is a Williams # for a 5/8"x3/4" ALLOY steel doe. #729 is a carbon steel doe.

I have a #1038C Craftsman Vanadium which I think is 15/16" x 1". I believe Williams #s became the standard beating out Billings.

BTW The new Craftsman site really *****. I can't even figure out how to get the Administrator to complain.

 

[lbgradwell]

Gary
#1729 is a Williams # for a 5/8"x3/4" ALLOY steel doe. #729 is a carbon steel doe.

I have a #1038C Craftsman Vanadium which I think is 15/16" x 1". I believe Williams #s became the standard beating out Billings.

Didn't know that, Eddie; good info!

 

[lauver]

LG and Eddie,

Good find Eddie, and I think we should consider Williams as a possible OEM.

But, I would like to suggest another OEM for consideration. Check out this Duro-Chrome, model 1729, 5/8" x 3/4" open-end wrench:

Duro-Indestro was big on the Vanadium alloys and used it in some of their trade names. Duro Indestro was also known for the U-shaped gullet of their open-end wrenches. Note the similarity of the gullet shape between the Craftsman and Duro-Chrome wrenches.

So, what do you guys think?

PS-- Eddie, what does "doe" mean?

 

[lbgradwell]

But, I would like to suggest another OEM for consideration. Check out this Duro-Chrome, model 1729, 5/8" x 3/4" open-end wrench:

Duro-Indestro was big on the Vanadium alloys and used it in some of their trade names. Duro Indestro was also known for the circular gullet of their open-end wrenches. Note the similarity of the gullet shape between the Craftsman and Duro-Chrome wrenches.

So, what do you guys think?

I don't think I'd attach too much significance to Duro-Chrome's use of "1729". It would have been used by most (all?) manufacturers of the period since it was a Standard Number denoting size...

Just to make sure you understood the significance of Eddie's earlier post:

Gary
#1729 is a Williams # for a 5/8"x3/4" ALLOY steel doe. #729 is a carbon steel doe.

...the addition of the "1" in front of the "729" just meant that the wrench was composed of higher quality alloy-steel (i.e. Vanadium, in this case) instead of plain carbon steel...

PS-- Eddie, what does "doe" mean?

"double open-end"

 

[MAD]

what may be a series code AF stamped on the handle.

Gary, the "AF" may just indicate the the wrench size measurement is across the flats. I have mostly seen "AF" marked for that purpose on British made Wrenches to differentiate them from Whitworth sizes. This may have also been done in the U.S. in the early years when there were more than one standard for marking wrenches. -Just a guess though.

 

[lbgradwell]

Yeah, "AF" = "American Fine"?

 

[MAD]

Yeah, "AF" = "American Fine"?

Across Flats

 

[lbgradwell]

Across Flats

Ahhh!

 

[lauver]

Gary, the "AF" may just indicate the the wrench size measurement is across the flats. I have mostly seen "AF" marked for that purpose on British made Wrenches to differentiate them from Whitworth sizes. This may have also been done in the U.S. in the early years when there were more than one standard for marking wrenches. -Just a guess though.

MAD,

Thanks for pointing out that possibility. As usuall, you're a wealth of information. I've seen the AF on many older wrenches of various brands, but never knew what it meant.

I also have:

an old Billings S-shaped wrench marked 1/4" OC and 3/16" OC (note the O is hex shaped), and

an old Bonney marked 3/16" CAP on one end, and 5/16" SAE and 5/16" CAP on the other end.

Care to take a stab at these?

 

[T56 Impala]

The "O"C actually means Hex-Cap. They pre date 1929 when the AF standard came to be. "CAP" was another way of stating Hex-cap. SAE, Hex-cap, AF and Whitworth were all different ways of telling you what size the wrenches were. That is why in 1929 they decided to standardize it.

 

[lauver]

T56,

Thanks for the additional information. It's ironic that this was all standardized in 1929 but here we are, confused as ever, 80 years later. It must be our facination with old tools that leads to the confusion.

 

[Eddie Hudson]

From the 1949 Williams catalog (downloaded from Rose)

# 729 Carbon Steel doe - $0.74

#1729 Alloy Steel doe "SUPERRENCH" - $1.27

Gary: I didn't mean to imply that Williams might have made the C-man Vanadiums, only that their numbering system was used.

 

[lauver]

eddie,

No problem, LG set me straight.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

Let me see if I can state what we know and don't know about the Craftsman Vanadium open end wrenches posted above:

1) Alloy Artifacts concluded that there is no series code designation on these wrenches and that the OEM is unknown at this time.

2) Alloy Artifacts indicated that these wrenches were sold between 1931 and 1941. I have no reason to disagree with AA, and in fact, my own collection of early Sears and Craftsman catalogs supports this date range.

3) The AF stamping on these wrenches appears to indicate a measurement standard (i.e. Across Flats). I have several other brand wrenches with this same designation, either stamped or forged on the wrench.

4) Alloy artifacts indicates that "Craftsman Vanadium" appears to be a sub brand of Craftsman. I'm inclined to follow AA's lead on this, but will list it as a series designation (i.e. Craftsman Vandium) instead.

5) The general design of the Craftsman Vanadium open end wrenches appears to be a common design among many vintage tool brands/OEM's. That is, the broad flat oval shape of the wrench beam is fairly common, as is the open end head U-shaped gullet. What is less common about the design, is the depressed panel surrounding the Craftsman Vanadium name. This may be an important clue in narrowing the field of possible OEM's.

6) The number 1729 stamped on the wrench I posted, with photo borrowed from Alloy Artifacts, appears to be a fairly common variation of a standardized wrench number, and is not a Craftsman model number. This number may, however, be another important clue in narrowing the field of possible OEM's.

7) I have noticed that Sears has a history of developing long term relationships with their Craftman tool OEM's, to the extent of actually fostering some of these OEM's with financial assistance. Sears also has a history of offering their OEM's own branded tools side by side with the Craftsman branded tools. So by extension, this may be yet another important clue in narrowing the field of possible OEM's for the Craftsman Vanadium open end wrenches. I'm in the process of compiling a list of brands/OEM's that were listed the catalogs before and during the Craftsman Vanadium open end wrench time frame of 1931-1941. I'll ad this list shortly as an edit/update to this post.

 

[Flash21]

Hey Gary, How does one disguish a -V- series tool between MDF and Easco, or otherwise date a -V- series tool?

When did -V- series start appearing with part numbers?

I'm trying to date my father's tools and I'm unsure exactly when they were purchased, although I suspect it was sometime between 1962 and 1972. They are all without part numbers, -V- series, ratchets, sockets, wrenches, all drive sizes. I can provide pictures if it helps. Currently, I"m trying to find a 3/8" drive, 3/8" deep 12pt socket that is of the same manufacturer to replace a broken one.

I would also like to purchase some metric -V- series tools that match my father's SAE -V- series so it will be helpful to know how to date -V- seriels tools

V = Moore Drop Forge, ca. 1938 - 1967

V continued = Easco, ca. 1968 - 1986 (trail ends here)

 

[Flash21]

I think this was interesting.

Both combo wrenches are -V- series without part numbers. This would seem to indicate MDF manufactured, I think. However, the wrenches are very different, one being much thinner and elegant looking and shorter:

some rat shots:

 

[Joe Mamma]

That's interesting. Thanks for posting those pics KLars1.

Check out the Craftsman and Easco wrenches in the following thread:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40058

The Craftsman wrench in that thread is a "pencil handle" style with the same style marking as yours (=v= with no part number). I think the pencil handle is even smaller than the smaller of your 2 Craftsmans. So that would make it 3 different styles from the same era.

If you look at my Easco wrench in the thread that I linked to, it seems to be VERY similar to the lower of the two Craftsman wrenches that you just posted.

Joe Mamma

 

[lauver]

KLars1,

You've raised several interesting questions regarding the V-series tools.

In most cases, a series code represented one OEM. In the case of the V-series code, the case is a little more complicated, because Moore Drop Forge (the original V-series, ca. 1938-1967) was acquired lock, stock, and manufacturing facilities by Easco Tools (later V-series, ca. 1968-1986). In short, Easco picked up the V-series tools exactly where Moore Drop Forge left off.

Now, regarding your wrenches, the ones with the narrow beams are likely to be the earlier Moore Drop Forge models. The ones with the wider beams are likely to be the later Easco models. I have some Easco branded wrenches that have the broader beams similar to the Craftsman brand wrenches with the broader beams. Joe Mamma posted a similar observation above.

The V-series ratchet you posted has a V-selector lever and no quick release button. This dates your ratchet to 1959-1966. Moore Drop Forge was the OEM of these gems. Slightly overlapping your V-series, V-selector, non QR ratchet, was a new design (V-series, long-lever, with quick release feature, starting in 1966 and ending about 1979). The early (1966-1967) V-series long-lever ratchets were made by Moore Drop Forge. Later (1968-1979) V-series long-lever ratchets were made by Easco.

Regarding the appearance of model numbers, this date is not yet known. I have catalogs thru 1969, and there is no evidence of model number stampings on any of the mechanics hand tools thru 1969. So, the model number stampings may have occured sometime during the later Easco years (1970 - 1989) or perhaps even starting in the Danaher years (1990-present). We simply don't know as yet.

Also note, Easco produced tools with the VV-series code between 1978 and 1989, perhaps earlier but we don't have any hard evidence of the VV-series before 1978.

Hope this helps.

 

[lbgradwell]

Regarding the appearance of model numbers, this date is not yet known. I have catalogs thru 1969, and there is no evidence of model number stampings on any of the mechanics hand tools thru 1969. So, the model number stampings may have occured sometime during the later Easco years (1970 - 1989) or perhaps even starting in the Danaher years (1990-present). We simply don't know as yet.

Gary, this can't be right!!!

I can say for absolute certain that the model numbers were present by 1987 or 1988 since my set dates from then.

I am next-to-certain that the model numbers were introduced in the very late 1960s or certainly by the very early 1970s.

Can we really not narrow this date down to within a year or two given all we currently know?!

 

[Eddie Hudson]

Gary, this can't be right!!!

I can say for absolute certain that the model numbers were present by 1987 or 1988 since my set dates from then.

I am next-to-certain that the model numbers were introduced in the very late 1960s or certainly by the very early 1970s.

Can we really not narrow this date down to within a year or two given all we currently know?!

Gary must be thinking about something else, and got confused. He knows model numbers were on 70's tools. I purchased Craftsman tools from 1975 thru 1984 and all of them were numbered. All the sockets, ratchets, and wrenches I bought were "V" series.

 

[lauver]

LG,

It is very possible that stamped model numbers could have appeared as early as 1970, I believe I said that in the previous post. Your tools with MN's and known dates of 1987 or 1988, fall into the Easco period (1970-1989) I posted above. The evidence pre-1970 is simply not there. I have several tools and tool sets from 1966-1969, some with patent numbers and dates, and none have MN stamps on them. Also catalog evidence pre-1970 is absent (I have pre-1970's catalogs but no evidence of MN's).

Yes, we could get closer; all it would take is:

1) 1970-1989 catalogs with photos of tools showing model numbers, or

2) a handful of folks posting tools with both model numbers and known purchase dates. We could easily be off quite a few years at first, but as more and more examples were posted we could zero in on the earliest appearence date.

I agree with you, it should be a fairly simple matter. But at the moment, we're short on smoking guns.

 

[lauver]

Gary must be thinking about something else, and got confused. He knows model numbers were on 70's tools. I purchased Craftsman tools from 1975 thru 1984 and all of them were numbered. All the sockets, ratchets, and wrenches I bought were "V" series.

Eddie,

Thanks for the "timely" post. So we have a good start; 1975 is the "current" earliest date.

Anybody else got tool examples with model numbers and known purchase dates between 1970 and 1974? If so, please post.

 

[Joe Mamma]

Eddie,

Thanks for the "timely" post. So we have a good start; 1975 is the "current" earliest date.

Anybody else got tool examples with model numbers and known purchase dates between 1970 and 1974? If so, please post.

The thing we also have to watch out for is the type of tool. My personal belief is that the model numbers started showing up on some types of tools earlier than on other types.

For example, the model numbers may have started showing up on pliers before wrenches, and on wrenches before sockets. Who knows. If at all possible, I think people should post what type of tool had the model number as well as the date.

Joe Mamma

 

[lauver]

Joe Mamma,

You're absolutely right. Folks should post photo's if possible, tool description if not possible.

I have noticed that any changes (logos, models, features, etc) to Craftsman tools are typically implemented in stages, never universally. I think it has to do with the fact that Sears sources their tools from multiple OEMS. And, the changes seem to occur as OEM contracts are issued or renewed. This makes sense, because it's a pain in the *** for OEM's to retool or change process mid contract. And any change would be a contract violation.

 

[Eddie Hudson]

OK, I just looked at a 1960 and a 1964 Craftsman Catalog. Using sockets as an example:

The 1960 catalog uses a master part number and then a size for all the sockets.

The 1964 catalog lists individual part numbers for each socket.

There are no part #'s or series codes shown in the illustrations, but I would guess that they started using #'s on sockets and other tools by 1964. This doesn't mean that if someone bought a socket or set they would get something with a # on it. Old stock has to be moved first.

 

[lbgradwell]

Gary, Eddie, Joe, et al.,

OK, I found the following on AA in the 2nd paragraph under C-Series Sockets and Drive Tools:

"We've called this the C-series because of an unusual feature: the tools were marked with a model number, beginning with a "C"! Although this may not seem highly significant, consider that it wasn't until the late 1960s or early 1970s that Craftsman hand tools were universally marked with model numbers."

I don't recall if this is where I first came across the information or not...

 

[lauver]

Eddie,

The catalogs have always had model numbers for individual tools and tool sets dating back to the late 1920's. That does not necessarily mean these same model numbers were stamped on the tools. And, it's also possible that model numbers may have been printed on original packaging.

My craftsman tool collection is deep in 1960's tools, and I can't find many examples of 1960's tools with model numbers. Here are the exceptions:

1) WF-series screwdrivers had model numbers (Western Forge began it's Sears contract in 1965).

2) WF-series pliers had model numbers (see note above).

3) WF-series punches and chisels had model numbers (see note above)

4) BF-series pliers had model numbers (Daido began its contract with Sears about 1969).

5) BF-series wrenches had model numbers (see note above).

6) DJ-series calipers and micrometers had model numbers (Mitutoyo began it's contract with sears about 1968).

7) a lone V-series 3/8" breaker bar had a model number but I can only approximate the purchase of this tool between 1969 and 1974).

8) a lone V-series 1/2" breaker bar had a model number but this tool was purchased in 1980.

On the other hand, I have at least a 100 V-series tools purchased between 1960 and 1969 that have no model numbers. These include ratchets, breaker bars, spinner handles, extensions, universal joints, adapters, sockets, open-end wrenches, box-end wrenches, combination wrenches, ignition wrenches, and nut drivers. Keep in mind, the V-series tools were produced under Sears principal tool supply contract.

So, based on what I've got in my tool box, it looks like some of the smaller contracters produced tools with model numbers in the mid to late 1960's. But, also based on what I've got, there is little evidence that the V-series tools had model numbers in the 1960's. I'm still guessing this ocurred in the early 1970's. If others can provide evidence of model numbering in the 1960's, I'll gladly stand corrected.

 

[Flash21]

Hey Gary - Thanks for all of your contributions to this thread!

I have taken recent interest in this because after reading this entire thread, I began taking another close look at my father's Cman tools. I had always suspected that the majority were purchased in the 60s, specifically mid-60s around the time he graduated from high school. With the information here, I was able to confirm that suspicion.

With the link to the catalogs, I now suspect my father purchased the 138-piece tools set on page 3 out of the 1964 catalog. (set 99 M 43394K) I'd always assumed had purchased the tools seperately but after seeing what was included in the set, he had every single piece correctly dated except for:

1/2" ratchet (stopped ratcheting and I warrantied it 11 years ago)
3/8" drive, 3/8" deep socket (I broke this, surprisingly thin walled, warrantied it 11 years ago)
3 pc punch set (sold by accident at my garage sale, have photo evidence sale table beforehand )
4" flat blade (sold by accident at my garage sale, have photo evidence of the sale table beforehand )
Finally, the only piece that I suspect was actually missing not do to my stupidity was the 3/8" crossbar.

I have been posting in the classfieds and Rickster here had sourced the socket, ratchet and punch set for me with the correct series codes, without part numbers.

If you (or anyone) can help lay my hands on the 4" screwdriver and the crossbar, I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to re-complete my father's tools. I find it interesting the crossbars don't have any markings at all, you wouldn't even know they are Cman. If anyone has the proper 3/8" crossbar but doesn't want to sell, I could really use the overall length and diameter of the bar to use in my search

Here are some pictures of the tools that I used in my 'want to buy' adds to contribute to the thread:


4" version of these flat head screwdrivers, G - no circle

2pc Chisel Set (G circle):

Finally, the 3/8" drive crossbar that matches these (1/4" drive and 1/2" drive shown), no markings

Here is the set:

My father bought this box instead of the Cman, which is VERY well built and reminds me of the Snap-On boxes from the era.

I was lucky to run into a garagejournal member that was selling this so I bought it. I've never seen another set like this. The set is united and looks awesome together.

=V= socket pics, like I said, very thin walled:

The screwdriver has G without a circle. I think we can agree that this wasn't made by Easco during the years stated. Should have this been stamped G-circle?

The chisels are stamped G-circle. This supports your notation on G-circle that it ran until at least 1964.

 

[Eddie Hudson]

Eddie,

The catalogs have always had model numbers for individual tools and tool sets dating back to the late 1920's. That does not necessarily mean these same model numbers were stamped on the tools. And, it's also possible that model numbers may have been printed on original packaging.

.

Gary

I think you have misunderstood what I posted. What I meant was that in the 1960 catalog (using sockets as an example) lists a Master part number and words "state size wanted". The 1964 catalog states a specific part number.

An example for a 3/4" drive 7/8" 12 point socket.
1960 says 9M 4444 "state size wanted"
1964 says Catalog number 9M 47541. This happens to be the # on my "V" socket (minus the 9M)

Since I didn't purchase any tools in the 60's I can't say anything about the exact time line. I could have read on AA, that numbers appeared on Cman tools in the mid 60's

 

[lauver]

KLars1,

You are one patient dude if you read the entire thread.

Regarding your G-series (vs. G-circle series) screwdriver... I can't resolve the descrepancy. In my current view of series codes, date ranges, and OEM's, "G" and "1964" do not mesh. But, that could all change next week, given a new piece of information.

Regarding your G-circle chisels... thank you for confirming the 1964 date.

Regarding the round T-bar you're missing in your set... I don't have one, so I can't help you. But, I would like to know if the T-bar goes with the breaker bar handle?

 

[lauver]

Eddie,

I'm following you now. But keep in mind, model numbers can run for a long period of time. It would not be implausible or unusual for a socket model number listed in a 1964 catalog to be in production in the 1970's (or later).

Thanks again for your help and interest.

 

[Flash21]

Regarding the round T-bar you're missing in your set... I don't have one, so I can't help you. But, I would like to know if the T-bar goes with the breaker bar handle?

Yes, it does...I had to ask the guys here what the 'crossbar' was which in listed in the itemized list. The guys informed me that the crossbar does work with the break bar handle. It is inserted through the hole in the handle to make a t-handle.

 

[lauver]

Yes, it does...I had to ask the guys here what the 'crossbar' was which in listed in the itemized list. The guys informed me that the crossbar does work with the break bar handle. It is inserted through the hole in the handle to make a t-handle.

KLars1,

Well, that solves a mystery. One of my V-series breaker bars has a hole in the handle and I always assumed it was for hanging the the breaker bar on a peg or nail. Now I know what the hole was intended for.

Side note: Craftsman makes sliding bar handles (in all the drive sizes), which serve as either a T-handles or L-handles. Very handy and useful in some situations.

 

[lauver]

Gang,

We're still trying to pin down the date when model numbers first appeared on V-series tools.

If you have any V-series tools with model numbers on them that pre-date 1975, please post them.

 

[Joe Mamma]

If anyone has the proper 3/8" crossbar but doesn't want to sell, I could really use the overall length and diameter of the bar to use in my search

I have that exact crossbar, and the ones for the 1/4" and 1/2" breaker bars too. They are not for sale, but I did measure the 3/8" crossbar. It's about 6 & 63/64" long and about 0.3100" in diameter.

I assume it's supposed to be 7" long, but I call it like I see it. I measured the diameter in a few places using a digital caliper. That's the most accurate diameter number for it. I have no idea what it works out to in fractions of an inch.

Also, I tried the all three crosssbars in their respective breaker bars. They all fit about the same. In other words, the crossbar for the 3/8" breaker bar was not significantly looser or tighter than the ones for the 1/4" or 1/2" breaker bar.

Let me know if you need more information.

Bernie